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Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Wrong Ammo for this War

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I recall several stories about the M-16 and how troops have decried it as a weapon and the undersized round that it fires-- the 5.56 mm.

In one, long ago, when the M-16 was just being introduced in Vietnam, a Marine instructor was said to have had his troops gathered around the elevated wooden platform the USMC often uses during instruction, and in the midst of his introduction of the M-16, hurled it to the ground and spat invectives at it.

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The reason for his ire what that the M-16 was prone to jamming, was relatively delicate in construction, particularly the gas feed tube and the forward grips, and the round was subject to being deflected by brush, small trees and vegetation.

No doubt he was comparing the M-16 to its heavier predecessor, the M-14, which fired the heavier and harder-hitting 7.62mm x 51mm NATO round. 

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In close combat it was heavy enough and robust enough to use as a war club.  The reasons the military gave for replacing the M-14 was that the rounds (or bullets) were heavier and troops could carry fewer of them.  A big disadvantage when many firefights were with an unseen enemy and the troops response was to ‘pray and spray’ fully-automatic fire in the enemies’ general direction.

Still, many have maintained their criticism of the M-16 and its progeny, the M-4, as being prone to jamming and firing too weak a cartridge.

In response to complaints from troops about the M855, the Army’s Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey assigned a team of soldiers, scientists, doctors and engineers to examine the round’s effectiveness. The team’s findings, announced in May 2006, concluded there were no commercially available rounds of similar size better than the M855.

But Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Corps major, said the Army buried the study’s most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent.

It was manipulated,” says Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military affairs forum called MILINET. ”Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better.

Officials at Picatinny Arsenal declined to be interviewed. In an e-mailed response to questions, they called the M855 “an overall good performer.” Studies are being conducted to see if it can be made more lethal without violating the Hague Convention, they said.

Larger rounds are not necessarily better, they also said. Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullet’s angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.

Heavier rounds also mean more weight for soldiers to carry, as well as more recoil — the backward kick created when a round is fired. That long has been a serious issue for the military, which has troops of varied size and strength.

The M14 rifle used by Joe Higgins was once destined to be the weapon of choice for all U.S. military personnel. When switched to the automatic fire mode, the M14 could shoot several hundred rounds a minute. But most soldiers could not control the gun, and in the mid-1960s it gave way to the M16 and its smaller cartridge. The few remaining M14s are used by snipers and marksman.

If I had to go to war, and there was a choice of weapons, I would definitely take the M-14, firing the 7.62mm and strap on the M1911A1 .45 cal FMJ as a sidearm. 

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Those two proven war-horses should never have been replaced the lighter, weaker 5.56mm and 9mm rounds.

Comments

You have a point when it comes to using 9 mm ball ammunition that the military has to use.

On the other hand modern 9mm hollowpoint has a very respectable record of doing the job.

The Vietnam era problem of jamming was due to using the wrong type of powder not a problem with the gun. 

You’ll never solve the 5.56 v 7.62 controversy.  Everyone’s got an opinion.  On the other hand the 7.62 x 51 is not the right round for a hand carried fully automatic. 

I think it was in the book “Misfire” where they talked about the selection process.  When they looked at the distances most all shots fired are at under 300 yds.  The 5.56 performs well in those distances.

The other discussion was that in a battle most soldiers don’t fire their weapon.  The M-16 increased the percentage of people that actually joined in, even though their fire was certainly not aimed.

Bottom line, unless I’m shooting a good distance I think the M-16 does just fine.

Besides those M-14’s are heavy.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on May 28, 2008 at 05:44 pm

The M1 won WWII.  Nothing like it in today’s army.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on May 28, 2008 at 06:26 pm

I’ve always preferred a .30 cal round, myself.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on May 28, 2008 at 06:48 pm

The .30-06 M1 Garand was indeed a great weapon.  Another great not coincidently was the .30-06 BAR.  The Germans feared its bark.  It was the “shock and awe” of the day.  Its popularity from its usefulness rose despite its weight during WWII.  The soldier fighting the front lines and taking territory was more concerned about firepower.  The team of doctors, engineers, and scientists are more concerned about carrying weight.

Politically Incorrect on May 28, 2008 at 07:22 pm
Avatar for RebTex

I guess I’m in the minority, but having seen the capabilities of the little 5.56 first hand, I chose that caliber for my sporting needs post-military.
Of course, I went through my “7 Mag” phase.....& I do use a heavier caliber in many instances, but for open work in the 100 - 250 yard range, it’s a great round with stopping power when the round is properly placed.
.
.
Another fine point to remember is that, during my era, the school of thought was to maim rather than kill so as to deplete the enemy’s resources.
If my memory serves me, I think it was 3 personell to aide the one injured soldier.

RebTex on May 28, 2008 at 08:43 pm

As regulars here know, I is a .30 man! I do have to agree with Toot on 9mm. I run 167gr jacketed hollowpoints in my Walther for general carry, and do the target thing using Wolf 115gr FMJs.

Reb, I have used M16 against live targets, I quickly laid hands on an L1A1 for the duration of my time in Central America. For many years I have had an M1 chambered in 7.62 NATO as my MBR, and last summer I took the plunge and bought a Kalashnikov RPK (Romanian made), the 7.62 Warsaw does not have the reach and hitting power of the NATO rd, though I have found that the heavier, 8 inch longer barrel makes a substanial difference compared to the standard 15 inch AK.

This may well be the next big thing, although I would really like to see it stepped up to .30. Just a whimsical notion, I admit!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 29, 2008 at 04:49 am

The one thing I can see in favor of 5.56 is that it doesn’t kick like the .30.  Maybe that’s different in semi-auto, but if I’m going to be firing hundreds of times in a combat day (or more), I might be awful glad to be firing something lighter, even if it just maims instead of kills at times.

Maybe I’m a wimp.  If the combat vets here want to accuse, that’ll be just fine with me.  :^)

Bike Bubba on May 29, 2008 at 07:40 am

BB:  I think that had something to do with getting an higher percentage of soldiers shooting during a battle.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on May 29, 2008 at 07:49 am

Anyone know what the weight of the 5.56 mil slug is? back in the days when I plinked silhouettes with my 22-250, there were 70 grain SP slugs available for reloading which I used when conditions were unusually windy. The extra mass they carried over the 52 grain BTHP slugs I usually used cut through the wind to stay on target (with expected scope compensation). I could feel the difference in mass by a slightly heavier bump in the shoulder and a considerably harder slap to the face from the stock created by the torque of the longer slug pushing its way down the riflings. They seemed to cause quite a bit more damage down range too. Of course for that type of shooting hand loads at the extreme limit are the norm. Considering there’s only .005/.006 difference in slug diameter it sounds like a little more mass could be added to the 5.56 slug by making it a millimeter or so longer and adding a few more grains of powder to increase it’s stopping power.


"we should select our leaders on principle first, electability second.”

A young man whose wisdom far exceeds his years

Spartacus on May 29, 2008 at 05:03 pm

The M855 is a 62gr bullet. It is short. It is light. And it is under powered. There are various and sundry hunting rds that are heavier and harder hitting. Military are not allowed to use them, simply because they would be lethal and effective. Guess which political party made that happen?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 29, 2008 at 07:29 pm

BB, you need to read “Men Against Fire”, SLA Marshall.

There is a major difference between pouring out fire, blindly, and putting out fire, directed to targets. The US military has made significant strides in drawing the average soldier into the “fire exchange”. And yet, you never know who is going to be the tiger, and who is going to rabbit. Not till the fire flies both ways. Thats just how the fuck it is.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 29, 2008 at 07:56 pm
Avatar for RebTex

2Hotel9
I’m using Federal Lake City ammo.
55grain jacketed boat-tails.
I use the M77 Mark 2 bolt & am quite pleased.
.
.
.On another note, you mention Central America....
Part of EAST?

RebTex on May 29, 2008 at 09:33 pm

Yes, I heard at one point that a combat study from WWII determined that as few as 15 percent of the troops actually fired their rifles at any one time.

Perhaps the Germans had a similar problem and for that reason developed the MP44, which looked so much like the Kalashnikov which followed it.  We were taught that Soviet doctrine held that the Red Army troops were to ride the tanks into battle, dismount at close range and run up to the FLOT firing full auto.

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But does that still hold true for the USA?

I have not fired the M4, so I cannot say what has been done with respect to the 3-round burst selection that replaced the full-auto capability on the M16A2. While there were many improvements in strength and accuracy in the A2, the pray-and-spray option was effectively ended when they took away full-auto.  While normally I prefer controlled bursts, but there are times, such as breaking out of an ambush or firing the FPF that you need full auto and no substitutes will do.

2H9’er - I welcome any replacement to the M16’s locking-turning bolt system, and particularly gravitate towards the HK’s system (we fired Mp-5SD’s which were smooth like butta), and really like the idea of a harder-hitting round.

Perhaps we ought to skip the intermediary step of the XM8 and go straight for my fav dream-weapon: the M-41A Pulse Rifle


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on May 29, 2008 at 10:33 pm

I was in Honduras, officially as part of an observer group, but you know GIs. People start shooting at you and it is natural to shoot back. I wanted to be stationed in Panama but it never happened.

MZ, that would be sweet!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 30, 2008 at 03:41 am

The M-16 was recently modified so that the auto selector only allows for 3-shot bursts.  It is accurate at 50 Meters.  Zeroed in in Iraq.  There were a few who had never fired the actual gun.  They qualified on the plastic “video game” range!


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 30, 2008 at 04:41 am

The burst function is one I liked to see placed on the M16/M4. HK has been using it for many years. Full auto is a waste in the hands of most troops. Back to the “spray&pray” doctrine.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 30, 2008 at 05:11 am

The M855 is a 62gr bullet. It is short. It is light. And it is under powered. There are various and sundry hunting rds that are heavier and harder hitting. Military are not allowed to use them, simply because they would be lethal and effective. Guess which political party made that happen?

Thanks for the info 2H9. Hollow points and “sx” rounds are the norm for hunters whom wish to make a quick and humane kill. From what I’ve learned from a few vets over the past 24 hours using hollow points in combat would be a “war crime” even though by hunting standards they are the way to go, one who served in Nam told me of field prepping ammo by taking a knife to the tip of each bullet to create a + in the tip so that it would fragment more easily, which he too said was a violation. It seems any plausible means of incapacitating the enemy is some sort of war crime to certain types of people.


"we should select our leaders on principle first, electability second.”

A young man whose wisdom far exceeds his years

Spartacus on May 30, 2008 at 05:01 pm

The amazing thing in the regs on ammo that can be used is that wounding enemy troops is less humane. I was taught in a hard school. Hit the RTO in the lead element, the officer or NCO in the trailing element, then systematically hit every single person that attempts to reach either, in the meantime your security team lays across their line of retreat and hits them with claymores and sustained auto-weapons fire as they attempt to disengage and fall back. Does that sound “humane”?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 30, 2008 at 06:03 pm

Hit the RTO in the lead element, the officer or NCO in the trailing element, then systematically hit every single person that attempts to reach either, in the meantime your security team lays across their line of retreat and hits them with claymores and sustained auto-weapons fire as they attempt to disengage and fall back.

Oh heck, that’s pussy.

Just hit’em with the FOO gas then follow up with 106’s firing flechettes.

All in a day’s work, I suppose.


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on May 30, 2008 at 06:17 pm

Don’t even get me started on snake&nape!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 30, 2008 at 06:43 pm

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This just in:


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on June 5, 2008 at 12:08 pm

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What the heck is going on with the script on this page?  Hitting return shouldn’t mean “Submit” /gripe

This just in from today’s Washington Times:

U.S. bullets too small to inflict quick damage

As Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.

As an Army sniper, Sgt. Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles most soldiers carry.

“Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice,” says Sgt. Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. “It just has more stopping power.”

Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.

The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds used in M4 and M16 rifles continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on June 5, 2008 at 12:12 pm

I have seen accounts of men, rather small men, taking multiple rds from M16 and still moving forward. And I have seen a man take 2 rds of .22LR and drop like a pole axed ox.

The .223/5.56 is fast, and that is blessing and curse. Add to that the solid core FMJ blows through without imparting a great deal of its power to the target if it does not strike bone, and you often fail to drop your target.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2008 at 01:14 pm
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