Say Anything Blog

hmmmm. maybe they got it out of a fancy ba’athist’s pool cabana or out of a water purification plant or a truck en route to a water purification plant. chlorine gas is also an improv WMD. there are countless improv WMDs all over the world. bfd.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

I think it’s bad news for the Iraqi population but since that doesn’t really fit into your right vs. left theme I can understand why you don’t mention it.

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

Sparkie: If you read the article, you would have found out that the quantities were far too large to be “improv”, as you put it.  Just another example of ignorance on your part, I’m sad to say.

MikeA: I didn’t mention the damage to the Iraqi people because it’s a given.  After all, the terrorists kill and maim mostly Iraqis over there, even though our MSM faithfully focuses mostly on our own troop deaths.  You are wrong about me, once again. I care a lot for the Iraqi citizens who are the victims of the terrorists, which is why I want us to win over there.
I read an article today describing Iraq as a country which has all three: oil, water and arable land, combined with a “vigorous population”.  As I’m sure our present leaders know, Iraq will make a great ally for freedom in the ME, unless the cowardly lefties bring about our defeat for their own selfish political purposes.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Iraq will make a great ally for freedom in the ME,

Like Brutus to Ceasar

Robert108:

After all, the terrorists kill and maim mostly Iraqis over there, even though our MSM faithfully focuses mostly on our own troop deaths.

You are mistaken.  They focus first on the Bombing of the Day [tm], thereby providing a venue for the terrorists in Iraq and a reason for them to continue bombing innocent people, and only after that discuss any US deaths, assuming there are any for that day.

But I take your point.

Chlorine gas makes a really crappy WMD by the way; I’m thankful that the terrorists are such big losers that they haven’t come up with anything better.

Like Brutus to Ceasar

So, you think Brutus was Caesar’s ally?  Very funny.  Typical leftie “logic”, though.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

...they haven’t come up with anything better.

I don’t know that I would consider this “better”, but saw a TV segment tonight about biological weapons being produced in Cuba.  Nice.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

god forbid other people work on shit we’ve had coming out our ears for years.

Chlorine gas makes a really crappy WMD by the way

aren’t all WMDs crappy?

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Chlorine is used to purify water. It can be found every country in the world.
Numerous common chemicals can be use to create a weapons.

Telling lies and accusing others of telling lies is standard right-wing policy.

RF: Have there been any thefts of large amounts of liquid chlorine from any water treatment plants in Iraq?  It is used for water purification in the liquid form, you know.  Where was it gasified and made into weapons-grade chlorine gas?  Without a shred of proof that the chlorine gas used in the two attacks came from any water treatment plant thefts(they would have had to be considerable in quantity), and without any evidence that the terrorists have such gasification capabilities, you have no credibility.  At that, where did the gasification equipment come from, if Saddam had no WMD and no WMD capability, as you lying lefties claim?
You seem to be just another lying leftie.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

With the extensive corruption in Iraq, it wouldn’t be particularly to get hold of pressurised containers of Chlorine gas or to manufacture themselves with simple laboratory equipment. Considering that all one has to do is add ammonia to chlorine bleach to manufacture the gas, see here.
There is no evidence that they don’t have simple lab equipment either, but the likelyhood is that they do, considering the amount of materials looted after the liberation.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

If any legit WMD where found in Iraq, your lying President long before now would have been on TV gloating.

Telling lies and accusing others of telling lies is standard right-wing policy.

Huh. I thought that was bipartisan policy.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Man: The most popular way to use chlorine to purify water is in tablet form, along with the liquid.  Once again, you mention possibilities, while failing to give any evidence that those possibilities have become realities.  Where did they get such large quantities of ammonia, then?  The amount of chlorine gas used in the attacks was quite large, not something that was casually acquired.
Occam’s Razor indicates that the simplest solution is the best; use of WMD by terrorists in Iraq today indicates the high probability that they either acquired them from Iran, or that they have been in Iraq all along, your speculations notwithstanding.
Why do you have so much difficulty in believing that terrorists, including Saddam, do the things that terrorists do, like stockpiling WMD?  It seem obvious to me.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

...your lying President…

That was the previous administration.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Once again, you mention possibilities, while failing to give any evidence that those possibilities have become realities.

Oh, so he’s doing the same thing as you? Horrible. Inexcusable.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

The chlorine gas, suicide truck bombs were real, Sparkie, and they came from the terrorists in Iraq.
Trying to blame water treatment plants is idiotic.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

...it wouldn’t be particularly to get hold of pressurised containers of Chlorine gas…

Just where would you find those “pressurized containers of chlorine gas” in today’s Iraq?  Inquiring minds want to know.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I love it when you call me a leftie.
The lying part: right-wingers always say such untruthful things when facts don’t match their philosophy.

The London bombings used a combination of ammonia (nail varnish remover) and hydrogen peroxide (hair bleach), all easily available from pharmacies. The bombers just visited lots of chemists and bought all their stock.

The most popular way to use chlorine to purify water is in tablet form

I didn’t mention chlorine from water purification, but tablets are generally used for single use operation, not industrial scale uses.
The simplest source, it seems, is that lots of ammonia and chlorine bleach were acquired. Easily appropriated I would imagine. Ammonia is used a lot in fertilisers and by the oil industry. Chlorine bleach could be bought from the local market or taken from hospitals.
I’ve just read of another easier source of chlorine gas and that would be salt water, when electrolysed gives off, chlorine, sodium hydroxide and hydrogen. Found here.
It seems that Occam’s Razor provides this as the easiest solution.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

The easiest solution is that the terrorists of today used the resources of previous terrorists in Iraq.  There is no parallel between Iraq and London in terms of being able to easily acquire large amounts of anything, unless you discover a stash that has been there, or if you receive supplies from another terrorist from outside Iraq.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Apart from salt water. Salt water is readily available, no?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Do such facilities exist? Where are they?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

R108:
I don’t see a link to the article, so I don’t know what sort of quantities we are talking about, but cylinders of pressurized gas chlorine (its under enough pressure that its really a liquid in the cylinders) are still used around the world for water and wastewater disinfection.  Many plants in the US have moved to using liquid sodium hypochlorite (bleach), primarily due to the dangers of chlorine cylinders.  New facilities using chlorine cylinders are required to store them in special buildings equipped with fume scrubbers and alarms in case of a leak. 

Not to say that Hussein hadn’t planned to use chlorine as a WMD, but I wouldn’t say that the presence of chlorine gas by itself is an indicator of this.

In the US, the prevalence of easliy accessible chlorine is actually one of our scarier vulnerabilities.

Sources/Uses

Chlorine is produced commercially by electrolysis of sodium chloride brine. It is among the ten highest volume chemicals manufactured in the United States, with 1998 production in excess of 14 million tons.

Chlorine’s most important use is as a bleach in the manufacture of paper and cloth. Chlorine is also used widely as a chemical reagent in the synthesis and manufacture of metallic chlorides, chlorinated solvents, pesticides, polymers, synthetic rubbers, and refrigerants.

Sodium hypochlorite, which is a component of commercial bleaches, cleaning solutions, and disinfectants for drinking water and waste water purification systems and swimming pools, releases chlorine gas when it comes in contact with acids.

Do such facilities exist? Where are they?

Does salt water exist? Try the sea. Do electrolysing facilities exist? Try a car battery and suitable anodes and cathodes to electrolyse the brine. We experimented with electrolysing salt water many years ago in school, not difficult. Anyone with half a brain could do it.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

The bombs weren’t made of salt water, and you have no evidence that such a volume of chlorine gas has been manufactured recently.  I know you want to cling to the myth that there were no WMD in Iraq, but it just isn’t true.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

The bombs weren’t made of salt water, and you have no evidence that such a volume of chlorine gas has been manufactured recently.  I know you want to cling to the myth that there were no WMD in Iraq, but it just isn’t true.

You don’t have evidence to the contrary, either. How do you know the chlorine wasn’t sourced from salt water unless you made them yourself? Are you a terrorist in our midst, masquerading as an American conservative?
I know you want to cling to the myth that there were WMD in Iraq, but it just isn’t true.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

From al-Reuters:

Chlorine bombs kill 8 in Iraq
Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:19am ET26

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Two suicide truck bombers driving tanks filled with chlorine killed at least eight people and 85 were made ill on Friday in the western Iraqi town of Falluja, hospital sources said on Saturday.

The first attack was at the entrance of Amiriyat Falluja, a large housing complex south of Falluja, that killed six people including policemen and making 79 ill, including 27 children.

The second bomber targeted a tribal leader opposed to al Qaeda nearby when he blew up his tanker outside the man’s home, killing two people and making six ill because of exposure to the chemical.

Militants have used chlorine as a weapon in the past. At least two bombings involving chlorine killed eight people in February.

The U.S. military said they discovered an al Qaeda car bomb factory last month near Falluja that was constructing bombs with chlorine. The gas causes severe burns when breathed in and can even cause death.

Chlorine gas was used as a weapon in World War One but its use in guerrilla attacks in Iraq has particular resonance for Iraqis. Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on Kurdish areas in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

© Reuters 2007. All Rights Reserved.

Emphasis mine.  No mention of the quantity, or of any conversion from salt water.  We still don’t know, but it is a parallel situation with what Saddam did.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I do find it interesting that the main interest of the leftie commenters on this thread has been to excuse this horrific action as something “improv”, to quote one of them.  There seems to be no concern that the terrorists are now using WMD in Iraq, only to deny that they were already there, as Saddam’s stash, or that they were from Iran.  There is no curiosity about where the terrorists got these WMD, only that nothing upset their “applecart”.  Very telling.  In any case, there are no “innocent explanations” here, only ones that can be justified or ones that give the lie to the usual leftie talking points.  That seems to be the real concern, not the lives of Iraqi citizens impacted by these murderous bastards.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

We still don’t know, but it is a parallel situation with what Saddam did

We still don’t know, precisely.

It parallels with Saddams use in that chlorine gas was used, but then do all attacks on Shia or Kurds imply Saddams involvement, because he attacked them when he was in power?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Aw, but can we really trust anything “al-Reuters” reports, r108?

I know you want to cling to the myth that there were WMD in Iraq, but it just isn’t true.

Another lie; at least 500 were found, and quite a few tons of yellowcake, in addition to the chlorine gas recently used.
“No WMD in Iraq” is not a nuanced position.  Finding even one makes it a lie.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I am concerned that the insurgents are using WMD, however I took issue with your implication that it was either Saddams chlorine, or that it came from Iran or Syria. Just being objective, Robert, I thought that was what you wanted?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Another lie; at least 500 were found, and quite a few tons of yellowcake, in addition to the chlorine gas recently used.
“No WMD in Iraq” is not a nuanced position.  Finding even one makes it a lie.

Please post a link to this data.
I just relate the truth as I see it. Isn’t that what you do?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

That seems to be the real concern, not the lives of Iraqi citizens impacted by these murderous bastards.

To wit:

Either way, it’s a big problem for the lefties. If the chlorine gas has been in Iraq all along, then the “no WMD in Iraq” crowd has been conclusively proven dead wrong, and all their attacks on the President based on their mistaken information is all wrong, and has been wrong from its inception.

From SFgate.com:

Less than 10 miles away, another suicide bomber detonated a dump truck containing a 200-gallon chlorine tank rigged with explosives at 7:13 p.m., also south of Fallujah in the Albu Issa tribal region, the military said. U.S. forces responded to the attack and found about 250 local civilians, including seven children, suffering from symptoms related to chlorine exposure, according to the statement.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Dave: Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Dave: I authored the article; it was an opinion piece.
I am concerned with the Iraqi citizens murdered by the terrorists, and have said so many times.  I want us to win there, so that the Iraqi citizens will no longer be slaughtered by the murdering terrorists, and Iraq will be a strong ally for peace and freedom in the ME.
As usual, you show your inability to think clearly.
I oppose the lefties because they want to use the deaths of the Iraqi civilians for political gain.
Also because they seem to be completely ignorant of basic economics.  Both of those make them unfit to govern, IMO.  I view my opposition to them as a public service.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Here’s one of many on the yellowcake:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36632

The WMD:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200606/NAT20060621e.html

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Dave: Your first clue might have been in the first sentence of the article, if you had been paying attention:

The chlorine gas attacks in recent days pose an interesting problem for our lefties, IMO.

“IMO” means “In my opinion...” Get it?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

It parallels with Saddams use in that chlorine gas was used, but then do all attacks on Shia or Kurds imply Saddams involvement, because he attacked them
when he was in power?

The common factor is the use of WMD.  Why do I have to explain that to you?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

R108:

Your first clue might have been in the first sentence of the article…

My first clue toward what? I was unaware of a mystery.

You wrote:

The author you (didn’t) link to…

Sounded like it was a mystery to you...I was trying to be helpful; I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I stand corrected!

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

I really am dubious that the chlorine gas used to attack civilians has anything to do with Saddam Hussein’s WMD program.  Chlorine gas just isn’t that poisonous.  It can make you sick, but the lethality is very low compared to other more effective weapons such as sarin or VX.

Also, as ElectNixon pointed out, chlorine gas is used in water treatment facilities as well as other industrial applications, and is readily available.  As I have commented before, it’s a good thing that the terrorists are relatively unimaginative, because they’ve chosen a fairly non-lethal agent.  I don’t see any good reason to spell out “how to do it right” in a public, internationally read forum, but mostly this is just going to piss of the Iraqis even more, and further reduce cooperation between al Qaeda in Iraq and the tribal leaders they are trying to intimidate.

Robert108, I’d be a lot more convinced by your arguments if you could prove that Saddam ever used chlorine gas as a WMD.

Carrick: Could only find stuff about Sarin and Mustard Gas; whew, what a relief!  Nothing about Saddam using chlorine gas, though.  I guess we can all go back to sleep now.
Hope the terrorists don’t find those stashes of Sarin and mustard gas, though.

It’s interesting that no one has commented on my other possibility, that the chlorine gas came from Iran/Syria.  I did propose that as an alternative.

The link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

r108 said

In any case, there are no “innocent explanations” here, only ones that can be justified or ones that give the lie to the usual leftie talking points.  That seems to be the real concern, not the lives of Iraqi citizens impacted by these murderous bastards.

This from the author of the post on what a problem the story is for lefties. Such hogwash, even for you.

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

On the other hand, if the chlorine gas came from either Iran or Syria, the farce of “peace through negotiation” with those countries is completely in the toilet. They are supplying WMD to the terrorists in Iraq, which, even for our lefties, would be pretty hard to deny as demonstrating hostile intent.

All their whining about it being wrong to consider military action against Iran would also be for nought. After all, the Iranian govt would be supplying WMD to be used against the coalition, a real no-no.

That’s the other part, Carrick.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

From a Stratfor article i received today:

Chlorine bombs are relatively easy weapons for the Iraqi insurgents to make. The devices used in the latest attacks involved a pickup truck and two dump trucks loaded with chlorine tanks and rigged with explosives. One of the dump trucks reportedly carried a 200-gallon chlorine tank. One truck detonated at a checkpoint near Ar Ramadi, while another killed two Iraqi policemen in Al Amiriyah. The most devastating attack occurred three miles south of Al Fallujah when a dump truck targeted the reception center of a tribal sheikh who had denounced al Qaeda.

The use of chlorine in chemical VBIEDs is attractive to militants because the chemical is widely available in Iraq and around the world. The problem, as Iraqi militants are finding, however, is dispersing the chemical with a VBIED while maintaining an effective concentration of the gas. As a result, the chlorine bombs seen to date in Iraq have been tremendously ineffective in inflicting mass casualties, especially when compared with traditional car bombs, which do kill large numbers of people when detonated in populous areas.

Because chlorine is so common, movement of the chemical cannot be severely restricted. This is especially true in areas where the state already has a weak hold on the security situation. Therefore, Iraqi insurgents are likely to continue refining their technique—and their allies and sympathizers beyond the state will start to adopt the tactic themselves.

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

Gang, they are using liguid chlorine sweetened with ammonia. Place 20lbs of C4 beneath a 200gl, plastic truckbed tank and you will get a large, though rapidly dispersing, cloud of chlorine.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Robert108, I think you missed the point.  If Iraq didn’t use chlorine gas as a WMD, as you now admit, it is unlikely the terrorists are exploiting Iraq’s WMD stockpiles for their chlorine gas attacks.  I would be much more concern if they gained access to VX, one shell can kill a few hundred people, even in a degraded form (especially if “intelligently” used, which I won’t go into).

As I also pointed out, on either industrial or military scale, the quantities are quite small.  The Germans used several hundred tons of chlorine gas to kill a few thousand British soldiers for example.  Industrial applications are by a railroad tank car of chlorine gas typically carry on the order of 50-100 tons of chlorine gas.  The two bottles of gas used in the larger attack weighed only a few hundred pounds.

So I don’t think this signals anything other than desperation on the part of al Qaeda in Iraq.

On the other hand, if the chlorine gas came from either Iran or Syria, the farce of “peace through negotiation” with those countries is completely in the toilet. They are supplying WMD to the terrorists in Iraq, which, even for our lefties, would be pretty hard to deny as demonstrating hostile intent.

All their whining about it being wrong to consider military action against Iran would also be for nought. After all, the Iranian govt would be supplying WMD to be used against the coalition, a real no-no.

This is still mere speculation, Robert.
There are people who object to military action on principle.
There are others who are concerned that attacking Iran would confirm in the eyes of many Muslims that the conflicts in the ME are another Western Crusade against them.
Some people just want the proof that the Iranian state is acting illegally, before we attack?
Is this unreasonable?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

2Hotel9, according to the reports I saw, they used chlorine gas tanks surrounded with conventional charges for the Fallujah attack.

One was a 200gl plastic dropin tank, the others pressurized transport cylinders, like you would get from a distributor for use in a pressurized system for municipal water treat or large swimming pool operation.

The single tank shot would have been sweetened with ammonia to make the cloud “cling”. The pressure vessels would have basicly blown their loads in such a manner as to have the majority of the chlorine rise rapidly, minimizing the effect.

And yes. I came by this knowledge honestly, US Army Irregular Warfare Instructor taught me. This and lots of other scary making things.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Some people just want the proof that the Iranian state is acting illegally,before we attack?
Is this unreasonable?

It’s one of the points in my opinion piece; glad you finally noticed.
I think Mahmoud has already given us plenty, but there are always a few Neville Chamberlains around…

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Maybe the chlorine gas from Iran would be enough to get the “proles” to act; you know how “those people” don’t want to pay attention to the obvious.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Robert108, I think you missed the point. You certainly missed my second point. If Iraq didn’t use chlorine gas as a WMD, as you now admit, I admit that I didn’t find any references after Googling it for five minutes.  It is less likely that it was indigenous, but Iran still could have supplied it, which is my second point. it is unlikely the terrorists are exploiting Iraq’s WMD stockpiles for their chlorine gas attacks. Maybe. I would be much more concern if they gained access to VX, one shell can kill a few hundred people, even in a degraded form (especially if “intelligently” used, which I won’t go into). Agreed.

As I also pointed out, on either industrial or military scale, the quantities are quite small. These attacks were on a “terrorist scale”, designed to terrorize and kill a relatively small number of people. Not military at all. The Germans used several hundred tons of chlorine gas to kill a few thousand British soldiers for example. Once again, a military application, not a terrorist one.
Industrial applications are by a railroad tank car of chlorine gas typically carry on the order of 50-100 tons of chlorine gas.  The two bottles of gas
used in the larger attack weighed only a few hundred pounds. Yes, appropriate for a terrorist attack.

So I don’t think this signals anything other than desperation on the part of al Qaeda in Iraq. Possibly supplied by Iran, in my opinion.  We already know of some weapons supplied by Iran; why not these?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

And Limey, when will enough evidence be present? Soldiers of the Iranian military have been, and are being, captured inside Iraq carrying out terrorist operations. Munitions manufactored in Iran have been used and captured in Iraq. Weapons and munitions purchased by Iran, on the open market with full paper trail directly to the Government of Iran, have been used and captured in Iraq.

At exactly what point do you decide that the man stuffing your wife’s jewelry into a pillow case is burglarizing your home?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Bullwinkle: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

Rocky: Againnnnnnn?

How many times do we have to spell it out to the Left?  WMD’s have been found in Iraq. Even the Oil-for-Food scandalizin’ Left-o-th-Left UN has said so:

See my previous posts here and here.

WMD’s in Iraq

UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM

Friday, June 11, 2004

The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam’s missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that “the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap,” Middle East Newsline reported.

“It’s being exported,” Perricos said after the briefing. “It’s being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal.”

“The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks,” Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destinations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters -the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.

“It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for,” Ewen Buchanan, Perricos’s spokesman, said. “You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax.”

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

“The problem for us is that we don’t know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere,” Buchanan said. “We can’t really assess the significance and don’t know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq’s neighbors.”

UN inspectors have assessed that the SA-2 and the short-range Al Samoud surface-to-surface missile were shipped abroad by agents of the Saddam regime. Buchanan said UNMOVIC plans to inspect other sites, including in Turkey.

In April, International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei said material from Iraqi nuclear facilities were being smuggled out of the country.

Another news Item Buried by Mainstream Media

Some 30 Iraqi planes found buried in sands Iraq-USA, Local, 8/2/2003
American officials announced that the occupation forces in Iraq found scores of planes dumped under the sand while searching for mass destruction weapons, alleged to be with the former Iraqi regime.

The officials explained that among the found planes are “Maig 25 fighters” and “Soa 25” planes found dumped in al- Taqadum ( progress) military base, to the west of Baghdad, where weapons experts team found the planes after they had noticed parts of the planes surfacing from under the sands.

---------------------------------------

Iraqi ‘Mach 3’ MiG Buried in Sand

Charles R. Smith
Wednesday August 6, 2003

NewsMax.com has obtained exclusive photos of a buried Iraqi jet fighter being recovered by U.S. Air Force troops. The Iraqi jet, an advanced Russian MiG-25 Foxbat, was found buried in the sand after an informant tipped off U.S. troops.  The MiG was dug out of a massive sand dune near the Al Taqqadum airfield by U.S. Air Force recovery teams. The MiG was reportedly one of over two dozen Iraqi jets buried in the sand, like hidden treasure, waiting
to be recovered at a later date.

Contrary to what some in the major media have reported, not all the jets found were from the Gulf War era.

The Russian-made MiG-25 Foxbat being recovered by U.S. Air Force troops in the photos is an advanced
reconnaissance version never before seen in the West and is equipped with sophisticated electronic warfare
devices.

U.S. Air Force recovery teams had to use large earth-moving equipment to uncover the MiG, which is
over 70 feet long and weighs nearly 25 tons.



http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/foxbat.htm

More about the Mig-25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25

Saturday, Oct. 11, 2003 2:37 p.m. EDT

Saddam’s Forgotten WMD Confession

The elite media continue to insist that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. attacked in March, citing the scant evidence of any actual weapons finds by U.S. arms inspector David Kay.

But if it’s true that Saddam Hussein was actually innocent on the WMD charge, then why did he confess in 1991 that his country had amassed huge stockpiles of highly toxic weaponized poisons - along with the delivery systems to take them beyond Iraq’s borders?

That’s right - lost in the debate over why U.S. weapons inspectors have yet to uncover the Iraqi version of the Manhattan Project is this salient fact: Not only did Saddam’s regime admit to possessing thousands of tons of lethal chemical and biological agents - Baghdad also gave a detailed inventory of its WMD arsenal to the United Nations.

This week’s Weekly Standard revisits Baghdad’s 1991 WMD mea culpa - complete with a laundry list of the frightening weapons that the press continues to suggest were a figment of the Bush administration’s imagination.

The magazine contended, “Here is what was known by 1998 based on Iraq’s own admissions.”

Baghdad had produced and failed to account for

• at least 3.9 tons of deadly VX nerve gas, along with 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.

• 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.

• 8,500 liters of anthrax.

• 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.

• 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

• 107,500 casings for chemical weapons.

• 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.

• 25 missile warheads containing germ agents, including anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum.

Again, the above arsenal is NOT what U.S. or European intelligence suspected Baghdad had. These are the WMDs that Saddam himself admitted he had - and failed to account for despite repeated demands from the U.N. that he do so.

It’s also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of the WMDs Saddam confessed to went completely undetected by U.N. weapons inspectors who combed Iraq for 12 years.

Still, thanks to the media’s five-month-long campaign to discredit the Iraq war - not to mention the horrible job done by the White House public relations team - most Americans have no idea that questions about whether Iraq had WMDs have already been answered - by no less an authority than Saddam Hussein himself. 
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/11/145715.shtml

Physicist: Saddam’s Uranium Stockpile Enough to Yield 142 Nukes,
Monday, Aug. 9, 2004 11:02 a.m. EDT
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/9/110630.shtml

“Five hundred tons of yellowcake uranium ore stored at Saddam Hussein’s al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons research
laboratory near Baghdad could have been enriched to produce 142 nuclear weapons, a prominent British physicist has determined.

“Addressing the claim by British intelligence last year that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger, Norman Dombey, professor of theoretical physics at the University of Sussex, argued, “Iraq already had far more uranium than it needed for any conceivable nuclear weapons programme.”
--------------------------------------------

[Remember, how, in the Middle East, the Shah of Iran was overthrown in 1979 as Jimmy Carter watched?  How
shortly thereafter, a little-known despot from Iraq ordered a full-scale attack on it’s neighoring Iran?
How this guy was well known to those in the region as one to make threats and then, if he possibly could,
make good on those threats?

The Israelis did not want this guy to have nukes, so when they got wind he was about to activate a Nuke
plant they flew in about a dozen American-built fighterbombers and destroyed the plant.  Of course,
the world was shocked, shocked and outraged. hrummph! hrummph!]

Israel prevented atomic disaster in 1981

November 1, 2001

WASHINGTON--When Israel’s Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, accompanied by Ambassador David Ivry, recently
visited the Oval Office, President Bush remarked that Israel certainly has the right ambassador for the
moment. He said this because Ivry has shown that he understands how preventive action is pertinent to the
problem of weapons of mass destruction in dangerous hands. Bush’s remark, pregnant with implications,
revealed that the president as well as the vice president remembers and admires a bold Israeli action
for which Israel was roundly condemned 20 years ago.
....
...Israel [had] learned that Iraq was about to receive a shipment of enriched uranium for its reactor near
Baghdad—enough uranium to build four or five Hiroshima-size bombs.

The reactor was 600 miles from Israel. ... Prime Minister Menachem Begin ordered the attack to occur
before the uranium arrived and the reactor went “hot,” at which point bombing would have scattered
radioactive waste over Baghdad. 
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/printgw20011101.shtml

What?? You never heard of Iraq’s SUPERGUN Projects??

“In documents filed with the UN Special Commission 18 July 1991, Iraq admitted possessing a gun with a
barrel 350 millimeters wide and 45 meters long and that it was building a second one. The commission
noted that the gun would have been inaccurate for conventional armaments, and that it was trying to
determine if the weapon was intended for chemical, biological, or nuclear use. The superguns were
potentially capable of firing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons to a range of up to 1,000 km.

The high-ranking Iraqi defector Gen. Hussein Kamel al-Majeed said Iraq was working on a space weapon
launched from the supergun.

“It was meant for long-range attack and also to blind spy satellites. Our scientists were seriously working
on that. It was designed to explode a shell in space that would have sprayed a sticky material on the
satellite and blinded it.”

He also said the supergun could have delivered a nuclear device.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/supergun.htm

And we in the intelligence field, heck, anyone who followed the Middle East, KNEW this guy loved to gas
his enemies, foreign and domestic:

“Saddam ... invaded Iran in 1980, initiating an eight year war that cost about a million casualties. During
the war, Saddam used chemical warfare against Iran as well as in suppressing internal revolts by the Kurds
in the north. .... Saddam’s suppression of Kurds, known as the “anfal,” began in 1987 and killed an
estimated 182,000, destroying thousands of villages and creating about 400,000 refugees. The United States
and Western powers supported Iraq with arms and Western companies helped Saddam build chemical,
biological and nuclear weapons capabilities. In 1981, Israel raided an Iraqi nuclear reactor supplied by
France, where Saddam had hoped to produce enough fissionable material to make a bomb. Subsequently,
Iraq concentrated on trying to obtain fissionable materials from abroad apparently. A secret 1988
document revealed a plan to use radioactive Zirconium as the basis of “dirty bombs.” “
http://www.mideastweb.org/iraq.htm

But the oddest thing about all these facts, and those I’ve shared with you before, is that folks in Washington KNOW ABOUT THEM TOO.  How can they minimize the danger to the USA, Europe and Israel when it is clear and present?  Why do they want America weak and its’ enemies strong?

10 Myths About the Iraq War
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/topten/articles/20070128.aspx

Physicist: Saddam’s Uranium Stockpile Enough to Yield
142 Nukes, Monday, Aug. 9, 2004 11:02 a.m. EDT
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/9/110630.shtml

“Five hundred tons of yellowcake uranium ore stored at
Saddam Hussein’s al Tuwaitha nuclear weapons research
laboratory near Baghdad could have been enriched to
produce 142 nuclear weapons, a prominent British
physicist has determined.

“Addressing the claim by British intelligence last
year that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger, Norman
Dombey, professor of theoretical physics at the
University of Sussex, argued, “Iraq already had far
more uranium than it needed for any conceivable
nuclear weapons programme.”
--------------------------------------------

... rest of the story at the URL listed above.
And of course, here’s a blast from the past:

[Remember, how, in the Middle East, the Shah of Iran
was overthrown in 1979 as Jimmy Carter watched?  How
shortly thereafter, a little-known despot from Iraq
ordered a full-scale attack on it’s neighoring Iran?
How this guy was well known to those in the region as
one to make threats and then, if he possibly could,
make good on those threats?

The Israelis did not want this guy to have nukes, so
when they got wind he was about to activate a Nuke
plant they flew in about a dozen American-built
fighterbombers and destroyed the plant.  Of course,
the world was shocked, shocked and outraged. hrummph!
hrummph!]

Israel prevented atomic disaster in 1981

November 1, 2001

WASHINGTON--When Israel’s Foreign Minister Shimon
Peres, accompanied by Ambassador David Ivry, recently
visited the Oval Office, President Bush remarked that
Israel certainly has the right ambassador for the
moment. He said this because Ivry has shown that he
understands how preventive action is pertinent to the
problem of weapons of mass destruction in dangerous
hands. Bush’s remark, pregnant with implications,
revealed that the president as well as the vice
president remembers and admires a bold Israeli action
for which Israel was roundly condemned 20 years ago.
....
...Israel [had] learned that Iraq was about to receive
a shipment of enriched uranium for its reactor near
Baghdad—enough uranium to build four or five
Hiroshima-size bombs.

The reactor was 600 miles from Israel. ... Prime
Minister Menachem Begin ordered the attack to occur
before the uranium arrived and the reactor went “hot,”
at which point bombing would have scattered
radioactive waste over Baghdad.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/printgw20011101.shtml

What?? You never heard of Iraq’s SUPERGUN Projects??

“In documents filed with the UN Special Commission 18
July 1991, Iraq admitted possessing a gun with a
barrel 350 millimeters wide and 45 meters long and
that it was building a second one. The commission
noted that the gun would have been inaccurate for
conventional armaments, and that it was trying to
determine if the weapon was intended for chemical,
biological, or nuclear use. The superguns were
potentially capable of firing chemical, biological and
nuclear weapons to a range of up to 1,000 km.

The high-ranking Iraqi defector Gen. Hussein Kamel
al-Majeed said Iraq was working on a space weapon
launched from the supergun.

“It was meant for long-range attack and also to blind
spy satellites. Our scientists were seriously working
on that. It was designed to explode a shell in space
that would have sprayed a sticky material on the
satellite and blinded it.”

He also said the supergun could have delivered a
nuclear device.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/supergun.htm

And we in the intelligence field, heck, anyone who
followed the Middle East, KNEW this guy loved to gas
his enemies, foreign and domestic:

“Saddam ... invaded Iran in 1980, initiating an eight
year war that cost about a million casualties. During
the war, Saddam used chemical warfare against Iran as
well as in suppressing internal revolts by the Kurds
in the north. .... Saddam’s suppression of Kurds,
known as the “anfal,” began in 1987 and killed an
estimated 182,000, destroying thousands of villages
and creating about 400,000 refugees. The United States
and Western powers supported Iraq with arms and
Western companies helped Saddam build chemical,
biological and nuclear weapons capabilities. In 1981, Israel raided an Iraqi nuclear reactor supplied by France, where Saddam had hoped to produce enough fissionable material to make a bomb. Subsequently, Iraq concentrated on trying to obtain fissionable materials from abroad apparently. A secret 1988 document revealed a plan to use radioactive Zirconium as the basis of “dirty bombs.” “
http://www.mideastweb.org/iraq.htm

...for great justice

I stand corrected! Hadn’t heard about that one.

He could have my wife’s jewellry though, I hate the bitch!

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

MZ I refer you to my previous comment. I was wrong.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

MOFO,

That’s cool.

It takes a big man to admit when he’s wrong.

Kudos.

Similarly, it takes a big man to cry…

and a bigger man to laugh at him.

...for great justice

MZ: Great work!  Of course, since there is no evidence of chlorine gas, I guess we can all just go back to sleep.  My bad.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

R108,

Thanks.  You know what?  Anytime some Leftist drone gives you the No WMD‘s line, from now on you can just direct them over to this thread’s URL, rather than have to post that Gawdawful mess again.

Thanks again.

Zig.

Out.