Say Anything Blog

But elinas told us that Georgia belongs to Russia and they can kill anyone they want to. So that settles that.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Is Georgia worth protecting? They seem to have been rather irresponsible lately, particularly under Saakashvili, who was if you recall the man who led the storming of parliament at the climax of the Rose Revolution. When faced with what was popularly called the Second Rose Revolution(USAToday), he sent in the riot police to beat them up and then blamed the Russians:

8 November 2007

Protests against Saakashvili led to him sending in the riot police. See how dangerous these protestors look.

Saakashvili seems to spend an awful lot of time blustering at the Russians:1 November 2007

I suspect he is trying to stir up anti-Russian sentiments, to distract the people from the anti-Saakashvili sentiments that are gathering pace within his country. He’s power-drunk and sees it as the best way to stay in control of Georgia - maintain a constant state of fear of the big bad bear.

However, he did win an early re-election in January, in which he pledged to reinstate Georgia’s territorial boundaries (including Abkhazia and South Ossetia). For him this was a vindication of his policies and so he has continued to antagonise the Russians and stepped up his efforts to regain territories that have never really been a part of non-Communist Georgia.

A timeline of events in post Soviet Georgia can be found
here

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Georgia is a sovereign state - which may come as some surprise to Putin and Moscow policy-makers. 

That Georgia seeks admission to the European Union and is particularly friendly to the United States is no surprise to them and troubling in the extreme.

Russia has spent the better part of the last 300 years intimidating or controlling states and nations along it’s borders with threats of violence or worse; a fact which our Polish and Finnish friends can attest to.

Unfortunately, pronouncements from Washington on sovereignty and civil negotiation must ring somewhat hollow in the ears of many around the world.

Is Georgia worth protecting?  Yes.

Can we, in fact, protect it?  Questionable.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Gary Bauer Gary Bauer Gary Bauer …. OH… the Moonie funded PNAC NeoCon American Imperialist …THAT Gary Bauer

Gary Bauer, the Family Research Council chairman whose entire staff quit because of his affair with a 26 year old intern, Gary Bauer?

Why would anyone listen to this guy?

Excuse me, you were saying?

But elinas told us that Georgia belongs to Russia and they can kill anyone they want to. So that settles that.
2Hotel9 on August 16, 2008 at 04:25 am

You are still drunk, I see.
You do two things well while drunk: Lie and threaten to kill people.

Keep defending socialism, it is so cute.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Gary Bauer Gary Bauer Gary Bauer …. OH… the Moonie funded PNAC NeoCon American Imperialist …THAT Gary Bauer

Gary Bauer, the Family Research Council chairman whose entire staff quit because of his affair with a 26 year old intern, Gary Bauer?

Why would anyone listen to this guy?

realitybasedbob on August 16, 2008 at 08:09 am

They listen to him because birds of a feather flock together,
We are not defending Russia. Merely pointing to the fact that Georgias hands have blood on them two. If you are to honstly lay blame, blame both.

(Thousands have been killed by the Soviets since their invasion)

In England, David Cameron, leader of the Tory party and former conservative writes:

We must make Moscow pay for this blow against democracy

With each day that has passed has come a growing recognition of what Russia’s invasion means: for Georgia, for Russia, for the region and for the whole world. And with that recognition has come an understanding of the need for a firm and urgent response.

What should that mean? First, speaking up clearly and bluntly about what has happened. This is not a time for diplomatic opaqueness. It is a time to distinguish unambiguously between right and wrong. It is a time for democracies to stand together. It is a time for members of our parliament – the seat of one of the world’s oldest democracies – to speak up for one of the world’s newest. Today, in Georgia’s hour of need, this instinct unites government and opposition.
...

Third, Russia must pay a price. Russia wants international recognition and respect. We must make clear that the path it has chosen leads to isolation and contempt. We should suspend Russia from the G8 and defer negotiations on a partnership with the European Union.

....

Fourth, there are mounting concerns about the activities of the militias and irregular forces. There are anxieties about the danger of Balkan-style atrocities perpetuated by para-military forces while regular forces turn a blind eye. Such allegations must be fully investigated and those responsible held to account.

...for great justice

What is that French expression of the more things change, the more they stay the same? Without all the special accents, cedilla and agues’ it should should start with:

plus ca change... and so it is with the article from 1927, recently fetched from England’s TIMES ONLINE archive:

Then, as now, the Soviets committed atrocities, widespread murder and pillaged Georgia.

The Western powers stood by and allowed it to happen.

Then, as now, these murderers and rapists had their Western-based cheerleaders.

Ellinas seems to have taken on this role, some 81 years after the first Soviet aggression.

Anyone else want to apologize for what the Soviets are doing?

...for great justice

"… the more they stay the same… “

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

For those of us who see the Russian attack on Georgia, a budding democracy, for what it is, the language used by the Soviets for this operation is confirmation:

Putin’s code-name for this operation is Chistoye Polye. Literally translated, that means clean field. In military parlance, it means scorched earth.

That being said, there may be yet something positive to come out of this latest act of Soviet aggression:

Indeed, it appears Moscow’s reluctance to honor the cease fire is a double edged sword; the longer they delay the more determined those nations in Russia’s cross hairs become to resist Putin. The Ukraine is talking about tying its early warning radar system in with the west’s. And there are other signs that western Europe would be willing to discuss immediate NATO membership for both Georgia and the Ukraine.

In short, the more Putin appears to tighten his fist in Georgia, the more other nations appear to be slipping through his fingers. I daresay Putin’s next military adventure will not be half as easy given the wake up call he delivered in Georgia.

...for great justice

From, of all places, NOVOSTI

Leaders of ex-Communist states show solidarity with Georgia

TBILISI, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - The pro-Western leaders of Poland and four post-Soviet countries appeared alongside Georgia’s president at a mass rally in central Tbilisi to show a united front against Russia.

Tuesday’s rally took place hours before Russia and Georgia agreed in principle on a peace plan, and after Russia ended its military operation to prevent further Georgian incursions into breakaway South Ossetia.

“We came to fight because a northern neighbor wants to suppress a small country. We want to tell it ‘No!’,” Polish President Lech Kaczynski said.

“This country thinks that old times will come back, but those times are over. Everyone knows that Ukraine, then Poland could be next,” Kaczynski said.

The presidents of Ukraine and the three post-Soviet Baltic countries - Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia - were also on the podium with Georgian leader Mikheil Saakashvili.

The rally came after five days of fighting that began with an attack by Georgian forces on the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali on August 8. Russia has said that around 1,600 people died in the Georgian assault. Some 34,000 people also fled fighting into Russia. Most residents of South Ossetia have Russian citizenship.

Russia has accused Ukraine of supplying arms to Georgia and encouraging it to attack South Ossetia.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko told the crowd in Tbilisi that his country will support Georgia in its battle for independence.

“If they put under question democracy and independence in Georgia, then they can undermine democracy and independence in other states,” he said.

...for great justice

Hysterical rants by a cold war leftover.

ellinas: 

cold war leftover

Like Greece and Turkey over the isle of Cyprus?

Like Greece and Macedonia?

Like the attempted communist coup in Athens?

What we are seeing here is the resurgence of the cold war and the resurrection of the soviet union.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Hysterical rants by a cold war leftover.

E,

That’s not even moderately good hyperbole from you?  Who’s the “cold war leftover” after all?  Lech Kaczynski?  Hardly.  Mikheil Saakashvili?  Viktor Yushchenko, who was poisoned by the Russians?

I understand that individual liberty and self-determination aren’t very high priorities for those of you on the comfortably effete Left.  But you simply cannot go through life dismissing everything and everyone that you find disturbing to your jaundiced world view.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

PP, e loves that shit. Her religion rising from its well earned grave, the opportunity for her socialist shit to cause more misery and death.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Bat,

My friend, I think you underestimate the Leftard’s capability to self-deceive.  That DOUBLETHINK osmotic filter which prevents facts of history from disturbing their centrally-held belief that Socialism is anything other than an evil and bloody madness is working overtime in the minds of folks like E.

There is something very wrong with them.  You will have better luck debating a dog with rabies or a brick wall for all the hopes you might have of making any sort of impression.

...for great justice

You will have better luck debating a dog with rabies or a brick wall for all the hopes you might have of making any sort of impression.

Move_Zig,

I think it is already well-established that with few exceptions (Mike Adamson comes to mind here) there is generally no debating facts and issues with those on the Left.  So perhaps all I’m really trying to accomplish is to upgrade the level of “progressive” insults to something a bit more imaginative, subtle and refined and less crass and personal.

And if they don’t get the hint...f**k ‘em!

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Pparets, Move_Zig, 2Hotel9, and Bat One.

On April 21st 1967, some mid ranking Greek military officers with the assistance of the CIA, overthrew the democraticaly elected Greek Government, and with the blessings of the USA government formed a military dictatorship. This was done because allegedly the communists were going to take over Greece.
They stayed in power for seven years (even though other military dictators assumed power.)
During those seven years thousands of people dissapeared, untold thousands were tortured, a wole lot were exiled, freedom was nonexistent, and the fascist “KYP”, the USA trained Greek CIA,if you were lucky would beat you up, or make you one of the missing persons never to be heard again. All that for walking in the street after curfew.
I could go on and on with the human rights abuses.
The end result of this “help” from the USA can be summed up in these words: The USA based multinational corporations took over the Greek economy and financialy subjagated Greece. Coca-Cola, Fanta, Pepsi, Craft Foods, Monsanto, Alcoa, and a plethora of others are still the big players in Greece and still control the Greek economy.
How do I know this? I was there during those seven years and old enough to know better.
So don’t come to me an tell me bullshit like this: “ individual liberty and self-determination aren’t very high priorities for those of you on the comfortably effete Left.” or the bullshit that Move_Zig, and 2Hotel9 spew.
For small countries like Georgia, Greece etc it realy matters not which superpower’s sphere of influence they fall under. The result is the same. Economic subjucation.
And mark my words the same thing will happen to Iraq.
Economic subjucation results in a hidden tax that “liberated” countries like greece and Georgia pay, to either the Rusian or American imperialists.
Am I for Freedom? Hell yes. But I am for my kind of freedom. Not one imposed by the Russians or Americans, or for anyone that wants to save me from my own kind.

And if they don’t get the hint...f**k ‘em!

Bat One on August 17, 2008 at 08:44 pm

Now that is mighty nice of you.

Vladimir Putin, Russia’s prime minister, had been planning the invasion for months and massed thousands of troops and hundreds of armored vehicles along the Russian-Georgian border.

What’s happened to our intelligence services?  Did Russia mass these troops on the border without us knowing?  Have we been so focused on the GWOT that we have ignored Russia, the country that has the second largest nuclear arsenal.

Obama was right when he said that Iran is not near the threat that the USSR was.  They aren’t even near the threat that Russia is.

Something doesn’t smell right here.

You are for “freedom” as long as it is socialism.

lestupid, anyone who was paying attention knew that Russia was bring a considerable force to that region all spring and summer. And Russia does not have the position and capability to sink multiple tankers in the in the 2 primary channels of the Straits of Hormuz. Not to mention your assertion that surrender to Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists is the only answer, you obviously don’t give a shit what Russia does to anybody.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

ellinas: Your statement about Greece is both passionate and persuasive.  I will need to do my homework.  Thanks.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Georgia is a sovereign state

...with several ‘de facto’ autonomous zones.

Sparkie,

Gee… this sounds a whole lot like the Sudetenland argument of October 1938.  As I recall, that didn’t turn out so well for whole lot of people.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One
I understand that you have a hard time processing NEW situations, but perhaps there isn’t some event in history that provides us with a perfect analogue.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Bat
Like I said before, we can all rest assured that we are on the side of angels, of the non-aggressors.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie,

No one said anything about a “perfect” historical analogue.  I think we’d both agree there is no such thing in any case.  Besides, that argument generally comes down to who is doing the revising of history this week.

Still, in both cases, a large, overbearing state with designs on the restoration of former national power and international prestige uses the modest enclave of its supporters in a small, neighboring, independent state as an excuse for invasion and occupation, and while protesting its limited ambitions, uses the period of “negotiation” to more fully establish its presence well beyond the geographical limits of the aforesaid enclave effectively dividing its powerless neighbor down the middle in what clearly appears to be a period preparatory to a wholesale onslaught of the rest of its neighbor and that state’s capital city.

As I understand it, South Osettia, like the Sudetenland of 1938, is not internationally recognized as a possession of the invader, nor as some ”de facto autonomous zone.”

It is said, Neville Chamberlain died never realizing the monstrous extent of his error regarding Hitler.  Churchill was gracious enough not to point it out in his eulogy.

There may not be a “perfect” historical analogue anywhere.  But there are certainly lessons to be learned from the past… for those willing to stay awake long enough to do the homework.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One
You guys are so full of sh*t. Anyone disagrees with your BS foreign policy that seeks to distort truth and reality to consolidate domestic support and you start ranting about Neville Chamberlain.

Ever heard the story of the man who cried wolf?

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

You guys only have a handful of beaten-to-death one liners that rely on historic vitriol.

Go sit with the petty dictators. That’s their style, not ours.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie,

What a marvelous response!  Articulate, detailed, well reasoned, and thoroughly supported by factual reference… a point-by-point refutation of my comment above.

Did you have to take classes to develop and refine your skill at verbal combat, or are you more like a phalanx of Russian tanks plowing through the Georgian countryside?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Let’s see…

The Leftards seem to have developed a standard Method of Operation:

1) Constantly ignore the glaring crisis at hand;

2) Bring up an unrelated event from the past;

3) Invoke Moral Relativism to paint either the Victims as the Aggressors, or the West as just as depraved as the Soviets, Chi-Coms, Hussein, etc.., and;

4) Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES are they to address the rape, murder and destruction being waged NOW in Georgia by the Soviets and CERTAINLY NOT acknowledge such depravity as BAD.

Did I leave anything out?

I guess that kind of shows where their priorities are, hey?

...for great justice

Did I leave anything out?

I guess that kind of shows where their priorities are, hey?

Yes! You left out this:
“On April 21st 1967, some mid ranking Greek military officers with the assistance of the CIA, overthrew the democraticaly elected Greek Government, and with the blessings of the USA government formed a military dictatorship. This was done because allegedly the communists were going to take over Greece.
They stayed in power for seven years (even though other military dictators assumed power.)
During those seven years thousands of people dissapeared, untold thousands were tortured, a wole lot were exiled, freedom was nonexistent, and the fascist “KYP”, the USA trained Greek CIA,if you were lucky would beat you up, or make you one of the missing persons never to be heard again. All that for walking in the street after curfew.
I could go on and on with the human rights abuses.
The end result of this “help” from the USA can be summed up in these words: The USA based multinational corporations took over the Greek economy and financialy subjagated Greece. Coca-Cola, Fanta, Pepsi, Craft Foods, Monsanto, Alcoa, and a plethora of others are still the big players in Greece and still control the Greek economy.
How do I know this? I was there during those seven years and old enough to know better.
So don’t come to me an tell me bullshit like this: “ individual liberty and self-determination aren’t very high priorities for those of you on the comfortably effete Left.” or the bullshit that Move_Zig, and 2Hotel9 spew.
For small countries like Georgia, Greece etc it realy matters not which superpower’s sphere of influence they fall under. The result is the same. Economic subjucation.
And mark my words the same thing will happen to Iraq.
Economic subjucation results in a hidden tax that “liberated” countries like greece and Georgia pay, to either the Rusian or American imperialists.
Am I for Freedom? Hell yes. But I am for my kind of freedom. Not one imposed by the Russians or Americans, or for anyone that wants to save me from my own kind.”

And just because you say “Bring up an unrelated event from the past” does not make it unrelated. It shows a pattern of abuse of small countries like Georgia, Greece, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Estonia, Chile, Polland etc, from the two current bullies of the world. Russia and the USA.

By the way. The picture that you, Move_Zig The know it all, and My shit don’t stink Move_Zig, posted for this thread, the picture of the column of rolling tanks on the street brought tears in my eyes, and memories I have long suppressed. I have lived through something like that. Motherfucker, I hope you are able to sleep at night. I haven’t for three days.

- E.

Oh Waaahhhhhhnnn

...for great justice

And now the big emotional play. It is supposed to silence all dissent. Bullshit, bitch.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2H9’er --

The reason I didn’t buy E’s sob story is because obviously he/she doesn’t.

Had that been the case, they would have empathized with the Georgians and recognized what the rape of a country entails.

Instead E launched into the standard Leftist apologist, blame-shifting, subject-changing, invasion/rape/murder - justifying screed.

Besides, I think what E really wanted to do was to call me Motherfucker and couch it in terms to make me feel guilty at the same time.

Ha!

As if!

...for great justice

And you keep trotting out that same article, when every other source, including your authority of record, Wiki, state that the CIA was not involved.

Your socialist heroes tried to undermine the government, with the help of Romania’s Securitate and the KGB. And they got their ass handed to them. Had they continued to work within the existing government they may well have succeeded. They didn’t. Get over it.

The orgasmic delight over your religion being forced on people yet again is sick, and your need to ram socialism down innocent people’s throats is the most anti-human disease currently infecting our planet.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The picture that you… posted for this thread, the picture of the column of rolling tanks on the street brought tears in my eyes, and memories I have long suppressed.

So, if posting the picture was bad, then can we say that the reality that the picture represents is far worse?
Then the story should be told: Pictures and all!

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Proof. Where did I say that posting the picture was bad?
Are you are making up stuff like 2H9 and Move_Zig?
For the record I am opposed to the Russian invasion and intervention. I am also opposed to American invasion and intervention. Both countries make excuses as to why they invade and subjugate smaller countries.
That is why I wrote about Greece.

And you keep trotting out that same article, when every other source, including your authority of record, Wiki, state that the CIA was not involved.

Do you realy expect anyone here stateside to admit that the USA was involved via the CIA? Or does anyone expects you to tell the truth on the issue? You were not there. I was.

2H9’er—

The reason I didn’t buy E’s sob story is because obviously he/she doesn’t.

Had that been the case, they would have empathized with the Georgians and recognized what the rape of a country entails.
Instead E launched into the standard Leftist apologist, blame-shifting, subject-changing, invasion/rape/murder - justifying screed.

Besides, I think what E really wanted to do was to call me Motherfucker and couch it in terms to make me feel guilty at the same time.

Move_Zig on August 19, 2008 at 04:08 am

Just like you showed empathy and sympathy for the Ossetians.
Or the lying friend of yours that even denied their existence as a people.
You and those likely minded friends of yours launched into the standard Rightist apologist, blame-shifting, subject-changing, invasion/rape/murder - justifying screed.
It is hard to believe ones country can engage in such conduct. But it takes a man to really see what is happening behind the rhetoric of democracy building.
Have a nice day. Sorry for the “ motherfucker” epithet, but fuck you for your dismissive screed.

We dismiss you because you spew socialist shit, therefore you are of zero consequence. Your opinion means nothing. Period.

Cry for us some more, squeeze out some tears. Thats alway funny from a socialist.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

We dismiss you because you spew socialist shit, therefore you are of zero consequence. Your opinion means nothing. Period.
Cry for us some more, squeeze out some tears. Thats alway funny from a socialist.

2Hotel9 on August 19, 2008 at 10:26 am

The only reason, other then being drunk, you dismiss me is because what I say does not fit into your little brain, and you cannot absorb the truth.

Oh my.  This is too easy.

Proof. Where did I say that posting the picture was bad? Are you are making up stuff like 2H9 and Move_Zig?

Ahem

By the way. The picture that you, Move_Zig The know it all, and My shit don’t stink Move_Zig, posted for this thread, the picture of the column of rolling tanks on the street brought tears in my eyes, and memories I have long suppressed. I have lived through something like that. Motherfucker, I hope you are able to sleep at night. I haven’t for three days.

Okay, so you suffer from suppressed memories, lack of sleep and from what I can see here, short-term memory loss.

I can kinda understand that you will have to resort to calling 2H9’er a drunk, since otherwise, you’re shooting blanks.

Why not use some of this valuable time to catch up on some sleep and perhaps do some memory improvement drills?

...for great justice

You have repeatedly told us you are a proud socialist. When you proclaim your desire for Nationalized Healthcare you name yourself a socialist. From the first time you said that we have dismissed you. Your opinion is irrelevant. That is all there is to it. What you want is irrelevant. You are a socialist, by your own chosen religion what you want is irrelevant. Only what the State commands is of any importance, because you have given away any right to a choice OR opinion that God placed upon you.

Now tell us about how you fled Greece after your socialist heroes got their collectivist asses(forgot collectivist last time) handed to them.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Move_Zig. In response to this:

So, if posting the picture was bad, then can we say that the reality that the picture represents is far worse?
Then the story should be told: Pictures and all

I wrote this:

Proof. Where did I say that posting the picture was bad?
Are you are making up stuff like 2H9 and Move_Zig?
For the record I am opposed to the Russian invasion and intervention. I am also opposed to American invasion and intervention. Both countries make excuses as to why they invade and subjugate smaller countries.
That is why I wrote about Greece.

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 09:00 am

I was right when I asked the qustion: “Are you are making up stuff like 2H9 and Move_Zig?”

I’ll have you know, that my name is not Rodney Graves.
I am not here to compare dick size with you, as you did with Rodney Graves. I allready know mine is bigger than yours.

2H9 deserves that title. He has in the past admited to being a drunk. The best he has to offer are unfounded accusations and no meaningfull debate . Unless ofcourse you agree with him that, for example, the Ossetians are a nonexistent people, a figment of the Russian Mafia.

There are those tears. Cry us a river, you socialist bitch.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem