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Sunday, August 24, 2008

Who Lied About Iraq?

By Randall Hoven

Do not believe that post-invasion intelligence invalidates our justification for using military force against Saddam’s Iraq. The truth is the exact opposite.  The US was fully justified to use military force against Iraq, even knowing what we know now—especially knowing what we know now. We should not allow the false story—almost accepted as fact—as we head into a Presidential election, to go unchallenged.

The False Story

“The United States invaded Iraq based on false premises. The administration orchestrated a public relations drive to prove that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and connections to the 9/11 terrorists - both proved false.” USA Today

While these two sentences came from USA Today, they describe the words behind the music of the “Bush lied, people died” meme echoing throughout the media chambers since at least 2004.  The lies in just these two sentences are almost Shakespearian in their layered texture.  The statement even lays out a false premise in accusing the Bush administration of using false premises.  If lying is an art, our media have mastered it.

The Premise

Our invasion of Iraq was not based on a public relations drive; it was based on Public Law 107-243, otherwise known as the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq, passed by the 107th Congress in October of 2002 .  (Herein referred to as the “Authorization”.) It passed the House with a vote of 296 to 133 (by 69%) and the Senate with a vote of 77 to 23 (by 77%), including 58% of Senate Democrats.  In short, it was overwhelming; it was bipartisan; and it was law.

Did the Authorization try to “prove that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction”?  Was that proved false?

No and no.

The Authorization has 23 “whereas” clauses, or reasons to justify military invasion, only some of which mention WMD.  Here is a prime example.

“Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated.” [Emphasis added.]

There are several things to notice in that clause.  First is the tense of the verb “had.” The clause does not claim that Iraq has WMD now (in 2002), but that it at one time had them.  Secondly, the only stockpiles mentioned are of chemical weapons.  Of biological and nuclear weapons it mentions only programs.  At no place does the Authorization say that any WMD are current (post-1991).

Another clause states Iraq continues “to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability” (my emphasis).  Again, capabilities and potential capabilities are mentioned, but not ready-to-use weapons or even weapon programs, much less large stockpiles of modern WMD.

Feel free to read all 23 clauses.  The Authorization never claims that Iraq had large stockpiles of modern WMD in 2002, which later became, for no good reason, the threshold used for validation by the media and administration critics.  (The logical fallacy employed by Bush’s critics here is the “straw man.")

[...]

It is the media that is spinning by demanding that only finding large stockpiles of modern WMD would legitimize the war. I am using the actual law as clearly stated.  Such an authorization, passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the President, was not just cobbled together willy-nilly.  It was the law of the land—carefully crafted, debated and passed.  Words matter.

So what was found post-invasion?  The Duelfer Report noted that 53 chemical weapons were found.

“Beginning in May 2004, ISG recovered a series of chemical weapons from Coalition military units and other sources.  A total of 53 munitions have been recovered.” (Found on page 97 of Annex F of Volume 3.)

That number later grew to over 500 chemical weapons.  You can now check the “large stockpiles of chemical weapons” off your checklist (even though the Authorization did not claim they existed in 2002 or later).

What about biological and nuclear programs?

“Initially, Saddam chose to conceal his nuclear program in its entirety, as he did with Iraq’s BW [Biological Warfare] program.  Aggressive UN inspections after Desert Storm forced Saddam to admit the existence of the program and destroy or surrender components of the program.  In the wake of Desert Storm, Iraq took steps to conceal key elements of its program and preserve what it could of the professional capabilities of its nuclear scientific community.” [Emphasis added.]

You may now also check the biological and nuclear weapons programs off your checklist.  At one time he had them.  The only question was how active such programs were in 2002.  But we know that he had them at one time and that he also concealed them later.  Were these programs still active, but concealed, in 2002 or had he put them on hiatus?  For the purpose of the Authorization, the answer doesn’t matter, but let’s examine it anyway.

As to concealment, note the following Duelferisms.

* The word “conceal” is found 57 times in Volume 1 alone.
* “Many locations associated with previous WMD programs and sites under monitoring by the United Nations have been completely looted… Often there is nothing but a concrete slab at locations where once stood plants or laboratories.”
* “We cannot express a firm view on the possibility that WMD elements were relocated out of Iraq prior to the war.”
* “ISG technical experts fully evaluated less than one quarter of one percent of the over 10,000 weapons caches throughout Iraq.”

[...]

In any case, Duelfer makes clear that Saddam had every intention of restoring the programs as soon as he could get sanctions lifted.  His very first finding, echoed often throughout the report, states his fundamental conclusion.

“[Saddam] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction when sanctions were lifted.”

In short, the Authorization did not try to “prove that Iraq had WMD.” Inasmuch as the Authorization mentioned WMD, such statements were fully validated by post-war intelligence.  And Duelfer went even further than Authorization claims by finding that Saddam had every intention of reconstituting his WMD has soon as he could bribe his way out of sanctions.

Did the Authorization try to “prove that Iraq had connections to the 911 terrorists”?  Was that proved false?

Again, no and no.

The Authorization mentions the September 11 attacks in five of the 23 “whereas” clauses.  Here is what it says in three such clauses, with the other two being repeats of the same sentiments.

[...]

One clause mentions 9/11 only to provide a background of the gravity of the situation.  Another clause explicitly says that all terrorists are to be targeted, noting that the 9/11 terrorists are only a subset of that larger threat.

There is only one statement in all of the Authorization that connects Iraq with al Qaida and the 9/11 attacks, and then only indirectly.  All it says is that some al Qaida members were known to be in Iraq.

Note that nowhere in the Authorization is there any claim of even a logistical, training or strategic relationship between al Qaida and Iraq, much less an operational or planning one for the 9/11 attacks in particular.  Again for no good reason, this latter claim became the only legitimate threshold for military action per administration critics.

[...]

“Postwar information supports prewar assessments and statements that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad and that al-Qa’ida was present in northern Iraq.”

This report is the product of a Democrat-controlled Senate committee, chaired by John D. Rockefeller (D-WV), in a Democrat-controlled Senate.  Moreover, more extensive Iraq-al-Qaida links have also been substantiated. According to the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report,

“One of the reported contacts [between Iraq and al-Qa’ida before the war] has been confirmed, and two other meetings have since been identified.”

Judge Harold Baer ruled in Federal court that Iraq was indeed partially responsible for the September 11 attacks, enough so that the plaintiffs could be awarded damages against Saddam’s Iraq .  The judge ruled there was “a sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to draw inferences”

“that Iraq provided material support to bin Laden and al Qaeda.... Iraq collaborated in or supported bin Laden/al Qaeda’s terrorist acts of September 11… Iraq provided materiel support to al Qaeda and that it did so with knowledge and intent to further al Qaeda’s criminal acts.”

Judge Harold Baer is not some 10-Commandment-Displaying Reaganite; he was appointed by President Clinton. Significant testimony in the case came from James Woolsey, President Clinton’s CIA chief from 1993 to 1995.

In short, not only was the language of the Authorization validated, but significantly more involvement between Iraq and al Qaida has been substantiated by a Democrat-controlled Senate, a Clinton-appointed federal judge and a Clinton-appointed former CIA chief.

So what was the terrorist-WMD reason for military action in Iraq?

The September 11 attacks demonstrated to all of us that terrorist threats are not empty. Those of us who doubted the seriousness of such threats (and I was one of them) had our heads cleared on 9/11.  Moreover, the attacks demonstrated just how deadly terrorists could be with only box-cutters and other low-tech tools.  Between their words and their actions, we knew we could not let terrorists get their hands on WMD.

On the other hand, hostile states could use terrorists as covert or plausibly-deniable WMD delivery devices.  The nightmare nexus would be a hostile state with both WMD and terrorist connections.

Iraq had both WMD and terrorist connections.  In short, as the Authorization puts it in its sixth “whereas,”

“Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations.”

[...]

What are some of those “other things” that made Iraq in “materiel and unacceptable breach of its international obligations”?

* Iraq agreed to a cease-fire when it surrendered in Desert Storm in 1991.  It was in “direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire.”
* Iraq agreed to eliminate its WMD programs in 1991.  It was later caught continuing those programs, concealing them and thwarting weapons inspectors to the point of kicking them out of the country.
* Iraq agreed to “end its support for international terrorism” in 1991.  It continued to “aid and harbor” international terrorist organizations, including those “that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens.”
* Iraq “engaged in brutal repression of its civilian population.”
* Iraq refused “to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman.”
* Iraq failed “to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait.”
* Iraq attempted “to assassinate former President Bush.”
* Iraq fired “on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council.”
* Iraq persisted in violating multiple United Nations resolutions.  Congress authorized the President “to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 674, and 677.”

If Saddam’s Iraq was not an “outlaw regime,” then there is no such thing.

Regardless of the careful wording of the Authorization, did the Bush administration orchestrate a “public relations drive” that was “proved false”?

Inasmuch as a public relations drive was mounted, it was examined by a Democrat-controlled Senate Committee on Intelligence and largely found to be “substantiated by intelligence.” This biased report from Chairman John Rockefeller’s committee analyzed various statements by Bush administration officials and compared them to post-war intelligence.  Here is what they found (emphasis added).

* “Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.”
* “Statements ... regarding Iraq’s possession of biological agents, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile biological laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information.”
* “Statements ... regarding Iraq’s possession of chemical weapons were substantiated by intelligence information.”
* “Statements ... regarding Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves.”
* “Statements ... regarding Iraqi ballistic missiles were generally substantiated by available intelligence.”
* “Statements ... that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles that could be use to deliver chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements or evolving views that existed in the intelligence community.”
* “Statements ... regarding Iraq’s support for terrorist groups other than al-Qa’ida were substantiated by intelligence information.”
* “Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other al-Qa’ida-related terrorist members were substantiated by the intelligence assessments.”

Substantiated, substantiated, substantiated by the intelligence.  And these conclusions from some of the most ardent Bush-bashers in the Senate.  About the worst they could come up with was that the Bush administration made claims with more confidence than seemed warranted by the intelligence community.

Tell me, if military action is considered necessary and legal, by both Congress and the Executive branch, is it OK for the President to muster domestic and international support for such action by using rhetorical persuasion?  I dare say, he would be negligent if he didn’t.

The True Story

The Bush administration did not lie.  Saddam’s Iraq was a threat to the US that demanded the use of military force.  That was not just Bush’s “cowboy” opinion; that was the written law, passed by huge and bipartisan margins in both houses of Congress.  That opinion was supported by both pre-war intelligence and post-war intelligence.

Moreover, the “legal case” was solid and Iraq was given chance after chance after chance.

* The authorization noted at least 10 UN resolutions, spread out over a decade, to justify the use of US military force.
* The Authorization noted that “the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in ... Public Law 107-40.” [Emphasis added.]
* The Authorization noted Public Law 105-235 (passed under President Clinton) that urged the President “to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.”

The invasion of Iraq was arguably the most justified case of military action the US has ever taken in its history, based on national defense, validated intelligence and legal authority, not to mention morality.  Articles of impeachment would have made more sense if Bush had not invaded.

That the exact opposite story is what a majority of Americans appear to believe, and a super-majority of non-Americans, is a scary thought.  The truth has been sabotaged, and not by President Bush or his allies.

Nothing like the facts with which to smack the leftie liars.

Comments

That is a good blog post…


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Goon’s World

goon on August 24, 2008 at 06:25 am

The gop lie tell:

The invasion of Iraq was arguably the most justified case of military action the US has ever taken in its history, based on national defense, validated intelligence and legal authority, not to mention morality.  Articles of impeachment would have made more sense if Bush had not invaded.


Excuse me, you were saying?


realitybasedbob's signature
realitybasedbob on August 24, 2008 at 07:04 am

Even another post from the fringe of the republican party.

TIP: Summarize.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” ~Theodore Roosevelt

nunez on August 24, 2008 at 07:31 am

Iraq persisted in violating multiple United Nations resolutions.  Congress authorized the President “to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 674, and 677

First of all, Resolution 678 relates to the Iraq-Kuwait issue in 1990 and to UN demands regarding Iraq’s pullout from Kuwait and NOT to our “pre-emptive” unilateral invasion in violation of UN resolutions.
So, to use non-compliance with worn out resolutions as a reason for our invasion is preposterous.

Secondly, compliance with UN resolutions has been turned into a farce thanks to the United States. We comply with them when they suit us. We ignore them when they don’t.
Bush was cherry-picking the resolutions to find those that seemed to support his invasion, and labelling as nonsense those that didn’t. 

Israel holds the world’s record in UN resolution violations, and was actively engaged in illegal nuclear research and development with our help. Instead of being subjected to US sanctions for developing or proliferating nuclear weapons (refusing to sign non-proliferation treaty), it was and is still receiving US aid to the tune of $2.5Bn annually enabling it to continue its build-up of unlawful weaponry.

Note that nowhere in the Authorization is there any claim of even a logistical, training or strategic relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq

Who cares what the Authorization states? What matters is the misrepresentations the Bush Administration was spewing or implying about links between al Qaeda and Saddam and, yes, 9/11.
And does the Authorization tell the president “go ahead invade?” Or does it tell his administration, in keeping with everything this country stands for, that if there is a real and imminent threat, and as a last resort, and only then, you have our authorization to invade?
Was there an imminent threat? Did the administration expend any thorough-going efforts to avert war? Or did it simply seek every possible pretext to justify bombs and invasion?

Oswaldo on August 24, 2008 at 08:35 am

Israel holds the world’s record in UN resolution violations, and was actively engaged in illegal nuclear research and development with our help. Instead of being subjected to US sanctions for developing or proliferating nuclear weapons (refusing to sign non-proliferation treaty), it was and is still receiving US aid to the tune of $2.5Bn annually enabling it to continue its build-up of unlawful weaponry.

There we go, another Israel hater. Go away hate America first lefty.


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goon on August 24, 2008 at 08:44 am

There we go, another Israel hater. Go away hate America first lefty.

What I said has nothing to do with hating Israel, or hating America first.
It means devotion to the things upon which our great country is founded, chief among which are peace and diplomacy, two concepts practically censored from our administration’s vocabulary.

As concerns Israel, I respect that nation’s right to live and be protected against extremist elements.
What I am against is our country’s constant and sometimes blind support of all of Israel’s actions, including UN resolution violations. While one can understand that such support is justified, what I find negligent even irresponsible is that we are showing our support in a manner that seems to be sending the wrong message. The message some are (wrongly) receiving is that in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the U.S. will side with Israel come hell or high water, which is an obvious misinterpretation of our true intentions.  It was that message which I believe was the root cause of 9/11 (bin Laden even said so immediately after the NY attacks).

A perfect example of negligence and irresponsibility is McCain’s recent tour of the Middle East with a Jew reckslessly aimed at Jewish American voters. What message was he trying to send? The same one that caused 9/11?

Oswaldo on August 24, 2008 at 09:39 am

What I said has nothing to do with hating Israel, or hating America first.
It means devotion to the things upon which our great country is founded, chief among which are peace and diplomacy, two concepts practically censored from our administration’s vocabulary.

As concerns Israel, I respect that nation’s right to live and be protected against extremist elements. What I am against is our country’s constant and sometimes blind support of all of Israel’s actions, including UN resolution violations. While one can understand that such support is justified, what I find negligent even irresponsible is that we are showing our support in a manner that seems to be sending the wrong message. The message some are (wrongly) receiving is that in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the U.S. will side with Israel come hell or high water, which is an obvious misinterpretation of our true intentions.  It was that message which I believe was the root cause of 9/11 (bin Laden even said so immediately after the NY attacks).

So you’re for appeasement? That is what buzz words that you’re using mean.


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on August 24, 2008 at 09:51 am

Who lied about Iraq? Saddam Hussein.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 10:26 am

Who cares what the Authorization states?

This sums up the leftie squealing about Iraq in one sentence.  To hell with the facts, just broadcast lying hysteria!

The Authorization is how the real Americans do things, Os.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 24, 2008 at 10:38 am

This sums up the leftie squealing about Iraq in one sentence.  To hell with the facts, just broadcast lying hysteria!
The Authorization is how the real Americans do things, Os.

You’re right is revisionist history from the left. Oh by the way Biden voted for the war. That is going to play well with the MOVEON.org and George Soros crowd.


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on August 24, 2008 at 10:43 am

They’ll just lie about it.  They have already altered his website significantly.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2008/08/24/more-biden-wiki-wackiness-whole-year-disappears


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on August 24, 2008 at 10:57 am

Yeah you gota love the leftards re-making history stroke by stroke…


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on August 24, 2008 at 11:27 am

There we go, another Israel hater. Go away hate America first lefty.

goon on August 24, 2008 at 08:44 am

Yeah you gota love the leftards re-making history stroke by stroke…

goon on August 24, 2008 at 11:27 am

When one has nothing left to say, one resorts in baseless accusations.
First of all, why is legitimate criticism of Israel “Israel hater” or antisemitic?

The right wing nutters are the ones re-making history stroke by stroke…

ellinas on August 24, 2008 at 11:42 am

Really, e? Perhaps you would like to give us a quick rundown on the UN Resolutions concerning Iraq and Armed Force?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 02:35 pm

No. You give me a run down of the U.N. resolutions against Israel, along with your excuses as to why they are not acted upon. While you are at it look up resolutions concerning Turkey and Cyprus.

ellinas on August 24, 2008 at 02:45 pm

Point out the one that called for Armed Force to be applied in the case that Israel failed to comply with UN Sanctions?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 03:11 pm

And while you are at it, prove Saddam didn’t lie.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 03:13 pm

And while you are at it, prove Saddam didn’t lie.
2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 03:13 pm

Both Saddam and Bush lied.

ellinas on August 24, 2008 at 04:38 pm

Point out the one that called for Armed Force to be applied in the case that Israel failed to comply with UN Sanctions?
2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 03:11 pm

No need to point out anything.
Why are we helping one coutry for violating UN resolutions and going to war with another? Go ahead and give me a litany of excuses.

ellinas on August 24, 2008 at 04:41 pm

Again, point out the UN resolution that called for Armed Force to be used against Israel. The UN archives are rather user friendly, should take all of 10 minutes. Lets see it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 06:45 pm

And you have not proven they lied. Do so now.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 24, 2008 at 06:45 pm

I said no need to prove anything. It is common knowlege.
You want to enforce resolutions that call for armed force but fail to support peaceful resolutions.
Your call for me to point the UN resolution that called for Armed Force to be used against Israel, is laughable at best.
You know damn well the US would veto such a resolution.
Therefore you are full of shit for even asking such a stupid ass question. Go play with your children. Allow adults to have serious honest conversations.

ellinas on August 24, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Can’t find that UN Resolution calling for Armed Force to be applied to Israel? Wonder why that is? Perhaps you did not look. Continue to spew your usual stupidity, you are entirely incapable of proving any of the crap you prattle on about.

Oh, it took me 4 minutes to find it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 25, 2008 at 04:33 am

I explained many times, that what you want me to find is not there. You know it is not there yet you keep playing this con game. You know damn well the US would veto such a resolution.
Now why is it that Israel is not obeying the UN resolutions and mighty America did? Especialy when you cons and neocons call for the dismantling of the UN, and when it suits your needs you allege and claim massive corruption?
Riddle me this: why is it our government obeyed the mandates of what you cons and neocons call corrupt?

ellinas on August 25, 2008 at 10:00 am

Took me 4 minutes.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 25, 2008 at 06:47 pm

Oh, and we are still waiting for that mountain of evidence that Rob lied or is silencing you, or anyone else. Well? We are waiting.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 25, 2008 at 07:19 pm

Took me 4 minutes.

2Hotel9 on August 25, 2008 at 06:47 pm

To find what?

ellinas on August 25, 2008 at 09:12 pm

Once again we are waiting for you to prove another line of shit you spewed. Took me four minutes to find the relevant UN Resolution. Why are you incapable of finding what you keep telling us exists. Could it be you are simply another lying Joohater? Present us with the prove. Lets see it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 26, 2008 at 03:37 am

You give me a run down of the U.N. resolutions against Israel, along with your excuses as to why they are not acted upon

Ellinas has asked you monkeys a question. Where’s your answer? Stop begging the question and please provide an intelligent or at least partially thought-through reply. Not just your usual “you’re a liar, lies, lies” bull. You could even reply simply to the last part of the question

“why they are not acted upon”

In other words, why is there no condemnation of Israel’s noncompliance with UN resolutions?

Hint, you could reply: (quotes taken from http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief2-7.htm)

The effort by [some U.S. liberals and] Arab diplomats to draw comparisons between UN action on Israel and Iraq misses the fundamental differences between the different kinds of resolutions in the UN organization. First of all, there are UN General Assembly resolutions, non-binding recommendations that reflect the political currents in the world body. Then there are UN Security Council resolutions, which have their own hierarchy.

Hence

The present effort to draw comparisons between Iraqi non-compliance with Chapter VII UN Security Council resolutions and UN Security Council resolutions on Israel under Chapter VI is baseless. This campaign may have been launched to divert attention away from other states like Syria, violating Chapter VII resolutions with respect to Iraq or with respect to the current American-led campaign against international terrorism.

There. I’ve done part of the work for you.
Now will you reply intelligently?

Or, as usual, will you just continue to beg the question or respond with your customary abusive slogans requiring no thought or effort?

Oswaldo on August 26, 2008 at 07:14 am

No, moron. elinas has repeatedly put forth that Israel is the country that violated UN Resolutions which called for the use of Armed Force in response to the violation, not Iraq. The onus of proof is on her.

We are waiting. Have been for a year, and she remains totally unable to prove it. Lets hear it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 26, 2008 at 07:18 am

Ellinas has asked you monkeys a question. Where’s your answer?

Oswaldo,

Do you really think you are the one to be castigating others for their non-responsiveness?

I don’t!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 26, 2008 at 08:02 am

No, moron. elinas has repeatedly put forth that Israel is the country that violated UN Resolutions which called for the use of Armed Force in response to the violation, not Iraq. The onus of proof is on her.
We are waiting. Have been for a year, and she remains totally unable to prove it. Lets hear it.

2Hotel9 on August 26, 2008 at 07:18 am

Ok! Let’s see here. I Have never said what you say I said.
That makes you a lier.
So it can sink in, I never said and or hinted that there was ever a resolution calling for armed force to be used against Israel to force compliance with any UN resolution.
Therefore you are making things up. and that makes you a lier.
Put up or shut up. Stop the lies.

ellinas on August 26, 2008 at 05:34 pm

You never hinted at it, you have said it. Repeatedly. In multiple threads. Your fear and envy of Jews drips from ever comment you post that has the word Israel in it.

Now, provide the number of the UN Resolution which calls for Armed Force against Israel for non-compliance with any UN Resolution. You started this dance, beeatch, finish it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 26, 2008 at 06:17 pm

So it can sink in, I never said and or hinted that there was ever a resolution calling for armed force to be used against Israel to force compliance with any UN resolution.
Therefore you are making things up. and that makes you a lier. Put up or shut up. Stop the lies.

ellinas on August 26, 2008 at 07:21 pm

Yes, you have repeatedly said it in multiple threads. Now prove it, or simply admit you are just another Joohater, terrified of Jews because they are more intelligent than you. How sad.

Tell us again how wonderful the world will be when your religion, socialism, is forced on all humans, since you refuse to provide us the number and text of the UN Resolution which calls for Armed Force to be used against Israel in the event they fail to comply with said Resolution.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 27, 2008 at 03:15 am

I believe you are drunk again. I have answered you. Now go kiss your masters ass. The opne that is blameless no matter what. You have lied before, and you are lying again. You are making the accusations. Prove them if you can. Now go pound rocks.

ellinas on August 27, 2008 at 07:50 am

Ellinas said about 2Hotel9’s claims

I never said and or hinted that there was ever a resolution calling for armed force to be used against Israel to force compliance with any UN resolution

2Hotel9, instead of showing proof, says

Yes, you have repeatedly said it in multiple threads

.

Which treads? Please specify.  I would like to take part more fully in this debate, but what’s the point of having a debate when the only argument one has is an allusion to some ill-defined source? C’mon 2Hotel9. I’d like to check out those

multiple threads

you mentioned. Where are they?
Oswaldo on August 27, 2008 at 08:50 am

We still await your proof. You have repeatedly said that Israel is in non-compliance with UN Resolutions which call for Armed Force against Israel in the event of non-compliance with said UN Resolution. Prove it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 27, 2008 at 10:56 am

You can accuse me of this bullshit till kingdom come. You provided no evidence to back up your claims.
Instead true to your neocon fashion accuse me of something than challenge me to prove you wrong. Nice try. If you were smart enough you would have figured by now you are loosing this argument by being a dishonest right wing nut.
Quick question: Did you hoard guns, ammunition, water and food staples in preperation of the year 2000? Yes you did.
Well, you were wrong then, and you are lying now.
Ps: ESAD

ellinas on August 27, 2008 at 02:07 pm

And you have still not proven that Israel has violated any UN Resolution which called for Armed Force in the event of non-compliance. Lets see it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 28, 2008 at 03:52 am

Why should I prove something I have never claimed?

ellinas on August 28, 2008 at 07:37 am

You have said it over and over. Now prove it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 28, 2008 at 04:10 pm

You have said it over and over. Now prove it.

2Hotel9 on August 28, 2008 at 04:10 pm

You are lying again and again. Why?

ellinas on August 28, 2008 at 04:31 pm

And tell us again how the Grecian socialist assholes got dragged into the street and died. We love that story!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 28, 2008 at 04:32 pm

Because you are a self hating Jew and a socialistic fuckbag?

Or is it simply because you are a socialistic fuckbag?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 28, 2008 at 05:05 pm

you have still not proven that Israel has violated any UN Resolution

the ordinance used in the Lebanon war violated UN rules as well as the conditions under which we sold that ordinance to Israel.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 28, 2008 at 05:19 pm

2Hotel9 is drunk again. Watch out. He will soon start to threaten to shoot people.

ellinas on August 28, 2008 at 07:46 pm

spark, I know you are inteligent enough to use United Nations Document Archives and google, e clearly is not.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 03:12 am

And we are still waiting for e to prove that Israel is in non-compliance with UN Resolutions which call for the use of Armed Force in the event of non-compliance, as she has been screeching that they are since she first came to SAB. Well, where is it, beatch?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 03:14 am

No, moron. elinas has repeatedly put forth that Israel is the country that violated UN Resolutions which called for the use of Armed Force in response to the violation, not Iraq. The onus of proof is on her.

Bullshit. Ellinas has said no such thing. Typical of your empty response to questions. You just keep repeating your lies.
Ellinas, don’t waste your time.

Oswaldo on August 29, 2008 at 07:42 am

Well, where is it, beatch?

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 03:14 am

Sorry you were too drunk at the time and missed it.
Try debating when you are sober.

ellinas on August 29, 2008 at 09:12 am

osmoron, you should actually know something of the history of e and her statements concerning Israel and UN Resolutions and compliance/sanctions/punishments. She could easily show us all exactly what violations of which Resolutions she is talking about, and yet refuses to do so.

So, beatch? Where is it?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 12:52 pm

So, beatch? Where is it?

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 12:52 pm

Up your drunk ass!

ellinas on August 29, 2008 at 05:17 pm

And still refuses to do so. We are waiting. Lets see it. Or you could simply spew some more Jooohate. You are always up for disparaging your betters.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 05:41 pm

And still refuses to do so. We are waiting. Lets see it. Or you could simply spew some more Jooohate. You are always up for disparaging your betters.


2Hotel9 on August 29, 2008 at 05:41 pm

You my better? Ha! ha! ha!.
I am not the fucking drunk that threatens to kill people.
If you are so enamored with the Jewish people, I suggest you emigrate to Israel.

ellinas on August 29, 2008 at 08:09 pm

Ah, let the Joohate flow, and still no proof of your charges. Typical. Any moron can access the UN archives. Any moron with the exception of you, that is.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 30, 2008 at 03:53 am
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