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Tuesday, April 01, 2008

What They Really Mean by “Change”.

An opinion piece by robert108


Both Democrat Party candidates are campaigning on the theme of “change”, so it behooves us to ask: “What do they want to change about America?” It seems a fair question, but as yet neither Democrat candidate has come forward with a clear, concise list of the changes they claim America needs.

The only “change” they seem to consistently advocate is to change the way money is distributed in this country. To that end, they both advocate increasing taxes on “the rich”(whoever that might be; to be determined later, by the ruling elite, I guess), and giving some of that to “the poor”(same method of determination, I guess). Is this a change we want, or even need? We have the recent example of just such a program, which was aggressively pursued in Zimbabwe by a man named Robert Mugabe. As might be expected by anyone with rudimentary knowledge of economics, it was a miserable failure.

Despite its flaws, a system whereby the people who are best able to produce receive the benefits of their productivity still seems to work better than any other system. America is the proof of that. Is there really any good reason to change it?

Furthermore, a merit-based economic system was never imposed on America; it is the system that generally evolves when free people get to make free choices in the marketplace.

So, what’s the problem? Why is “change” necessary here?

For the answer to that question, we have to go to Karl Marx. Starting with the premise that all human activity is conditioned by “class struggle”, Marx than concluded that all bad social outcomes were due to differences in outcome. He also reasoned that if outcomes could be equalized throughout society, there would be no class struggle, leading to lasting peace(not to mention puppy dogs and rainbows).

Unfortunately, there’s a problem with Marx’s neat little utopian package: humans just don’t think and act that way. As free individuals, we have a hierarchy of priorities, starting with self, then family, then friends/relatives, then everybody else. In order to produce Marx’s ideal society with equal outcomes, we would have to discard our natural priorities, and sacrifice them to the State, which would determine everything for us, so that outcomes would be equalized(thus leading to the aforementioned utopia, puppy dogs and rainbows, etc.)

Marx’s version of reality requires a belief that basic human nature can be radically changed(there’s that word again) and that the State is all-wise and all-knowing. Of course, Marx wasn’t really that naïve; he called for(in The Communist Manifesto) what he described as “the dictatorship of the proletariat”. In case you don’t know, the “proletariat” is everyone but the rulers; in other words, you and me. Now, this dictatorship(promised to be temporary, although with no actual promise of how long it would be imposed on us) would be necessary for our own good(or for “the common good”, if you will), in order that we be re-educated in the ways of Marxist ideology, which, if followed with absolute perfection, would lead to the promised utopia. In other words, when we no longer have any individual thoughts, feelings or desires, we will be in paradise(or at least Karl Marx’s version of same).

To sum up, the “change” Clinton and Obama want is to change us. When we sacrifice all our individual wants and needs to "the common good", everything will be just ducky; that's what they want for us all, you know. If we just let them lead us down their primrose path of collectivism, we will all have everything we want and need and we'll all be happy(cue the puppy dogs and rainbows). The only problem is that it's just a scam. What they really want is power over our lives. They want profitable corporations to serve them, not their stockholders and employees, and the economy in general.

I don’t know about you, but I like America the way it is, warts and all, to some vision that sounds like a concentration camp.

Comments

robert108:  all that you have said here so very well, along with maintaining the war on terrorism and protecting the Supreme Court from an activist takeover, is exactly why we must do everything possible to keep these two clowns out of the White House.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

pparets on April 1, 2008 at 06:30 pm

After that, holding that RINO’s feet to the fire will be a full time job.
“Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.”


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 1, 2008 at 07:44 pm

Its the effing Marxists! Seriously though, ‘Das Kapital’ has turned out to be disturbingly prescient. Can’t we agree that the Marxists, the Rationalists, the Atomists, Noam Chomsky, the Humanists, the Progressives, the Christians, and the ‘social conservatives’ all suffer from some bizarre form of mild retardation? Get me OUGHT from IS, requested Hume. No one can. Don’t tell me OUGHT, r108, tell me IS. Also, perhaps you should distinguish Marx from his ‘interpreters’ or ‘followers’… and give him a good read one of these days.

Everyone promises decisive change, control, and so forth… but they lob turds into a gigantic causal soup, the results of which and control of which are beyond us. What we can do is PR. Sure we can praise this chaos. it IS great. will we make advances? its not clear that we OUGHT to. Maybe we’ll pull it off. I’m not holding my breath. We won’t even acknowledge evolution for christ’s sake… and we can prove that with bacteria in a lab in a few weeks under the noses of whoever wishes to look. Perhaps we will progress enough to accept evolution. Then we will have to reassess this epithet ‘progress’. Its clearly not what it seems to the ‘vulgar’.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 1, 2008 at 09:16 pm

. We won’t even acknowledge evolution for christ’s sake… and we can prove that with bacteria in a lab in a few weeks under the noses of whoever wishes to look

Interesting. And you sat this has been done before...the proof I mean?


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 1, 2008 at 09:36 pm

Sparkie: Das Kapital is based on the completely erroneous premise known as “the labor theory of value”.
Not only is it not “prescient”, it’s pure bullshit.

Other than that, it’s hard to make any sense out of your word soup.(that’s a pun, boy)

All we need is “free people making free choices”, and more of it.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 1, 2008 at 09:38 pm

I’m not holding my breath. We won’t even acknowledge evolution for christ’s sake… and we can prove that with bacteria in a lab in a few weeks under the noses of whoever wishes to look.

Really?  Everyone one knows that micro evolution takes place.  Give me a call when the bacteria evolves into a tadpole or something similar.  And a link to back up your statements would be nice.

And what are you talking about?  We won’t acknowledge evolution?  What planet have you been on?  Evolution in the norm in the public classroom and anyone who questions darwanism is brutely assaulted by the scientific community.

Ben Stein has a documentary coming out that shows how creationists are violently attacked if they express their views.  Here’s a link to the trailer.

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/video.php

I thought that people could believe whatever they wanted here in America?  I thought the Bill of Rights covered that in the First Amendment but I might be wrong.



A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

dougee on April 1, 2008 at 11:47 pm

i am glad we are talking about the only real change.

ok. i am not pushing some secular humanist line here. those people do not acknowledge evolution fully either, but the christian narratives are effing laughable.
consider it. evolution i mean. ‘species’ are fictions. the whole monkey man distinction falls away when one really considers that the is no such ‘natural kind’ as man. it fits us into a big effing arbitrary clock, more or less. it lets us know that our way of looking at the world does not betray any ‘reality’, but merely is the best version for the continued existence of various forms of complexity, having come about through randomization. free is bullshit r108. free choice and so forth. christian mythology. the humanists have taken up the flag. progress. onward. its horseshit. we can’t change the world! it changes itself, us as a part.

also, sally and dougie. go do some reading and get smart-y. one can witness evolution in a lab in a week using bacteria. whoatever you think evolution is, or whatever the secular humanists present it as are probably inchoate. if that is the case, i don’t blame your skepticism. all i can ask is, if you bump into things with as dubious proof as you feel evolution has, extend your skepticism to them. its only rational. if you uphold god, condemn evolution for lack of proof, and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be fucking medicated. alright, this has come off a bit too ad hominem. read back and replace ‘you’ with ‘one’. my bad.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 3, 2008 at 01:30 pm

...having come about through randomization. free is bullshit r108. free choice and so forth.

What a sad, limited, hopeless little world you live in, Sparkie.

“God does not play dice with the Universe.” - Albert Einstein

Everything seems random when you don’t understand it.
Your “randomness” copout is simply you demonstrating your ignorance.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 3, 2008 at 03:45 pm

if you uphold god, condemn evolution for lack of proof, and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be fucking medicated.

I’m glad the liberals are showing their true tolerance of diversity.  Liberals claim that they support diversity until presented with someone who has apposing views as they do.  I personally do uphold God and don’t believe that evolution is truth.

However, when I meet someone who believes that evolution is true, I don’t swear at them and tell them they should be “fucking medicated.” This is a free country and people are free to have whatever view on the origin of life and religion/God.  That’s what I believe when I read the Bill of Rights and see that Americans have freedom of speech and religion.  We don’t live in communist China do we Sparkie?

I agree with Ben Stein when he says that someone who is secure in their beliefs isn’t afraid to debate their viewpoints.  But when someone questions any bit of evolution, people start going nuts and say things like

you need to be fucking medicated.

Like I said, I would be willing to think about believing in the theory of evolution if someone could show me evolution from one species to another different species.  But there’s the rub.  I haven’t seen it.

Sparkie, I have no problem with you believing what you do, why do you have a problem with me doing the same?



A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

dougee on April 3, 2008 at 05:31 pm

Dougee: To believe in God and Creationism here will expose you to mean-spirited, vulgar attacks, it comes with the territory.

It is foolish to argue Creationism verss Darwinian Evolution of the human species, people have closed minds and are unwilling to explore the facts wherever they might lead. In short though, (1) I do not understand how evolutionists can see massive evidence of complex design at every level of life and deny the absolute fact that design period, but certainly complex design, requires the preexistence of a Designer, as random mutations over time only result in the loss of information and never additions. (2) I would like to see evidence of fully developed, vertical transitional forms between different kinds of life. (3) It seems to me that if evolution of the human species or evolution period is true it would cause us to be ass deep in clear, fully developed transistional fossils.

An exceptional quote to begin with, revealing that specific, pinpointed similarities between two separate species can mean very little. Baboons, according to research, share 90% of their DNA with human beings. Does this, therefore, make them 90% human? The answer, in light of this . . ., is absolutely not. Dr. Barney Maddox, a leading genetic genome researcher, also noted concerning man/monkey genetic differences: “Now the genetic difference between human and his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, is at least 1.6%. That doesn’t sound like much, but calculated out, that is a gap of at least 48,000,000 nucleotides, and a change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal; there is no possibility of change.”

You are also right that the vulgar and vicious attacks of evolutionists is evidence of their fear because they suspect or know that the evidence does not support their anti-God, pro-evolutionary theories.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 3, 2008 at 05:49 pm

Thanks Nieman.  It’s nice to know that there are other people out there that have similar views that I do.  I would be perfectly fine if evolutionists would just let me believe what I want and be respectful.  But I guess there are some creationists who do the same.  Tis a shame.



A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

dougee on April 3, 2008 at 06:52 pm

To believe in God and Creationism here will expose you to mean-spirited, vulgar attacks, it comes with the territory.

Neiman, only by some. What insolent adolescents like sparkie don’t understand is that it’s impossible to substantiate the existence of a higher being just as there is no proof of the concept of evolution.

...as random mutations over time only result in the loss of information and never additions.

Not true my friend. Mutations on a cellular level happen frequently and many are to the detriment of the cell. But mutations can and do occur which are so beneficial that the cell not only survives but is stronger because of it.

I don’t know Dr. Barney Maddox, what he says is true but also misleading. There are long stretches of DNA that we have yet to determine their value; they don’t direct the systhesis of any known biogenic substances. A change in the nucleotide sequence can, but not necessarily will, result in fatality.

The scientific truth is we can’t discount the idea of evolution but contrary to sparkies pronouncement, we can’t prove it either; it remains a theory.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 3, 2008 at 07:19 pm
Avatar for HG

The scientific truth is we can’t discount the idea of evolution but contrary to sparkies pronouncement, we can’t prove it either; it remains a theory.

The key phrase is “scientific”.  Science is limited. Modern science refuses to recognize the necessary presence of intelligence in a universe based upon knowledge.  Instead they have imagined a path to intelligence based upon chaos and chance.  Of course this only works in the mind committed to a natural explanation of life.

HG on April 3, 2008 at 07:40 pm

First, “Neiman, only by some.” I never stated it was everyone or a large number. But, I have experienced the ridicule and only wanted to let Dougee know that I was on his side.

Next, there is a difference between what you said, ”mutations can and do occur which are so beneficial that the cell not only survives but is stronger because of it,” and what I stated which was like the following statement:

“I’ve never found a mutation that added information . . . All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information.” Dr. Lee Spetner, John Hopkins University.

Mutations delete information from the genetic code. They never create higher, more complex information.

I could offer statements by many Nobel Prize winning scientists and even evolutionists that cast serious doubts on the theory of Darwinian Evolution of the Human Species, but we cannot argue the case here one way or the other. However, the statement about mutations and the other three points I offered, I believe, are still valid.

We all have the same scientfic data, Creationist minded scientists analyze that data and try and determine which life model (Darwinian, Creation or I.D.) best fit that data. Unfortunately, for a host of reasons, evolutionary scientists when faced with data that is incomplete or cannot fit the evolutionary life model will not consider if the other suggested models can better explain their observations. Creationists must consider which life model best explains the data, evolutionary scientists will only consider one life model and that is not good science in my opinion.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 3, 2008 at 07:57 pm

Mutations delete information from the genetic code. They never create higher, more complex information.

I beg to differ.

It all depends on the level you consider the genetic code to be informational.

I believe what Dr.Spetner is referring to is that each portion of DNA contains a sequence (information) for the eventual construction of polypeptides or proteins or even messenger (mRNA) or transfer RNA (tRNA) synthesis. Thus a disruption or a mutation in that sequence will destroy that information.

However, if we think of the information to be that on a more cellular level after differentiation has occurred, the conformational change in a protein or enzyme due to a mutation, may cause a change which is beneficial; that is some information is destroyed, but more is created.

I could speak to enzyme kinetics all day long, it’s simply intriguing. But, I’m not here to argue the science of macromolecules or genetics. I commented to express my full agreement with your right to make a scientific argument for creationism if that is your belief.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 3, 2008 at 08:47 pm

HG,

Science is limited. Modern science refuses to recognize the necessary presence of intelligence in a universe based upon knowledge.

Very limited and as of yet, with all we know, still quite immature.

By the way HG, I’ll take this moment to thank you for your compliment on another thread. Sometimes I go over the top but I never do it without some provocation.

And you know I’ve always enjoyed your posts, even when, or if, we disagree.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 3, 2008 at 09:02 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Mutations delete information from the genetic code. They never create higher, more complex information.

You’re an idiot. 

You are using an argument based on not understanding entropy, as if nothing can ever become more complex.

Lestat on April 3, 2008 at 09:18 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Modern science refuses to recognize the necessary presence of intelligence in a universe based upon knowledge.  Instead they have imagined a path to intelligence based upon chaos and chance.  Of course this only works in the mind committed to a natural explanation of life.

It’s not sciences purview to recognize intelligence.  Science seeks to find a natural solution to problems.  You speak of philosophy, which I grant you is a higher calling.

Lestat on April 3, 2008 at 09:25 pm

Complexity can arise spontaneously, it happens all the time.

Water droplets turning into snow crystals is a great example.

Ken McCracken on April 3, 2008 at 09:39 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Water droplets turning into snow crystals is a great example.

So is evolution.

Lestat on April 3, 2008 at 09:46 pm

Water droplets turning into snow crystals is a proven phenomenon.  Evolution is not


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 3, 2008 at 10:06 pm

People who believe in Darwinism probably also believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 3, 2008 at 10:17 pm

People who believe in Darwinism probably also believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Many people who believe in evolution say this exact thing about the religious.

Ken McCracken on April 3, 2008 at 10:22 pm

Many people who believe in evolution say this exact thing about the religious.

That’s probably true since most staunch evolutionists don’t believe in a God (the creator). 

So what side are you on Ken?


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on April 3, 2008 at 10:34 pm

When Lestat starts calls someone an idiot for their beliefs and then portends a knowledge of thermodynamics, it is a blow to both creationism and evolution.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 3, 2008 at 10:42 pm
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When Lestat starts calls someone an idiot for their beliefs and then portends a knowledge of thermodynamics, it is a blow to both creationism and evolution.

And thermodynamics!



Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Proof on April 4, 2008 at 04:05 am
Avatar for HG

It’s not sciences purview to recognize intelligence.

Uh, that is exactly what I said, glad you agree Letstat.  Now take the next step and acknowledge that our universe operates upon a knowledge ground-base. You should begin to see the flaw in a method of investigation which ignores the obvious, then pursues a course which must prove the preposterous—that knowledge is the product of chance and chaos.  Which in turn means that the presence of knowledge and its vital role in the operation of the universe, is not evidence of intelligence.  Nothing could be more counterintuitive or absurd.

HG on April 4, 2008 at 09:03 am
Avatar for HG

You speak of philosophy, which I grant you is a higher calling.

Your getting warmer Letstat.  A committment to natural explanations is a philosophical one, and this is the philosophy which governs the modern scientific method.  Which begs the questions: Shouldn’t a method of scientific investigation which excludes all but natural explanations first prove only natural explanations are true?  And, shouldn’t this proof be something more than one of a few differing philosophical arguments?

HG on April 4, 2008 at 09:09 am
Avatar for HG

Sally,

You’re welcome.

And you know I’ve always enjoyed your posts, even when, or if, we disagree.

“Nice to have a fan”.

HG on April 4, 2008 at 09:28 am

HG - Now take the next step and acknowledge that our universe operates upon a knowledge ground-base.

How is that the next step? That’s a leap of faith. Knowledge is information known to an intelligent being. A “ground-base” is the first step. You’re asking for acknowledgement of a Creator.

Leap of faith.

You should begin to see the flaw in a method of investigation which ignores the obvious, then pursues a course which must prove the preposterous—that knowledge is the product of chance and chaos.

The “obvious” is your leap of faith.

The “preposterous” is real: Much of man’s knowledge is the product of chance and chaos.

Which in turn means that the presence of knowledge and its vital role in the operation of the universe

It is not a given that the universe has any need of knowledge.

is not evidence of intelligence.  Nothing could be more counterintuitive or absurd.

Circle.

Shouldn’t a method of scientific investigation which excludes all but natural explanations first prove only natural explanations are true?

Why don’t they work on the natural with a caveat that everything could have come from one Creator?

Or not. It doesn’t matter. Everything is all properly labeled as theory, not law. Nothing is excluded. It’s all theory. We can’t prove it.

And, shouldn’t this proof be something more than one of a few differing philosophical arguments?

The believer of God is asking this?

There is no proof.

You and Lestat both argue from faith. You from Creation, Lestat from evolution. Opposing faith does not reason with each other.

I hope you’re both wrong and that evolution is the hand of God. It’s just another theory. Don’t let it bother you.

likwidshoe on April 4, 2008 at 09:45 am
Avatar for HG

How is that the next step? That’s a leap of faith. Knowledge is information known to an intelligent being.

lik,

Information is everywhere.  The universe operates by knowledgable means.  The blueprint that is DNA is a prime example of this reality. 

Our ability to comprehend the knowledge replete in nature does not make “knowledge”.  It exists whether or not we know of it.  The fact that so much knowledge remains out of our reach bespeaks an intelligence far superior to our own. 

This is simply a logical observation and requires no faith whatsoever. 

It is not a given that the universe has any need of knowledge.

Sure it is lik, not one law could exist that is not knowledgable.  The universe would cease to be as we know it absent information.  Don’t tell me you can’t see the forest for the trees.

The believer of God is asking this?

The question is asked in light of the exclusiveness of the modern scientific method.  Given the rigid modern scientific method, how is it the philosophical governs said method?

I hope you’re both wrong and that evolution is the hand of God.

Well that is another option, as you stated.  But, if God did create life through the process known as evolution, then the presence and importance of knowledge in the universe is evidence of an intelligent cause; and, science is mistaken in its effort to exclude such a conclusion drawn from observation.

HG on April 4, 2008 at 03:50 pm

first off, i am glad i struck a nerve. lots of sputtering responses that immediately mis-characterize one’s position are a good sign, imo. now, back to the actual content of the thread, something which dougie has missed.
one, we can prove evolution in a lab in a week or two. second, the idea of species and genus, while convenient for a taxonomy, is a useful fiction. look up nominalism. third, i see that neiman, instead of taking issue with what i have said, has merely called me, and other commentators on this blog, vulgar. i know but one response to that. it’s vulgar.
NOW DOUGIE SAYS:

Give me a call when the bacteria evolves into a tadpole or something similar.

dougie. all i can say is that you are dealing with a slanted version of evolution. isolating the tadpole is foolish. the entire congerie comes together. the different between man and monkey is not only unsubstantial, the one between living and non living is un substantial. epistemically speaking we always need categories. i am not contending that. but evolution is not merely limited to life forms. we are talking about random iteration. the judgements about progress, complexity, and so forth are necessarily epistemically tainted. they are embeded within this system, themselves part of that very iteration.

I’m glad the liberals are showing their true tolerance of diversity.

are they? where is this happening then?

Liberals claim that they support diversity until presented with someone who has apposing views as they do. 

again, entirely off topic my friend. that is pure ad hominem. do you have an argument or not?

I personally do uphold God and don’t believe that evolution is truth.

as good a choice as any, as far as i am concerned. i don’t agree, because i think science can tell us things, however muddy the epistemic water is now getting.

However, when I meet someone who believes that evolution is true, I don’t swear at them and tell them they should be “fucking medicated.”

again, very good traits. but what’s the concern? if you remember dougie, i took issue with acting irrationally, by all of our standards. i was not saying that people who dont believe in evolution need to be medicated. i was saying that about people who apply their skeptical standards in a wildly lopsided manner and call others irrational. to help you remember, here it is:

all i can ask is, if you bump into things with as dubious proof as you feel evolution has, extend your skepticism to them. its only rational. if you uphold god, condemn evolution for lack of proof, and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be fucking medicated.

let me offer an analogue:

if you uphold A on no evidence, condemn B out of the gate and mutate the evidence to argue against straw men, and rant about the irrational tendencies of others, you need to be fucking medicated.

can you see the general structure of this particular point better now, dougie? also, i think the liberal epithet, while often useful… has reduced your side of the debate to the phase that the hippies went through when then used to call people ‘fascists’. you are, in effect, doing the very thing you were attempting to rant against. sort of ‘avant garde’.

the discovery of evolution, for science, was also a very avant garde moment.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 5, 2008 at 05:10 pm

also, i think lik has salient points.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 5, 2008 at 05:13 pm

...and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be (*) medicated.

And some are beyond the point where medication would help...for Sparkie I would suggest a comfortable but tight fitting jacket and a place where he can meet other equally disturbed indivduals.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 5, 2008 at 05:55 pm

if you uphold god, condemn evolution for lack of proof, and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be fucking medicated.

You condemned everyone who doesn’t share your worldview, Sparkie.  Not very tolerant of you, is it?
Of course, you’re just projecting.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 5, 2008 at 05:56 pm

The debate between Darwinian Evolution and Divine Creationism are between scientists that operate with opposite life models that explain the data. The Darwinians have succeeded in shutting down all reasonable debate about the matter, but when open and honest debate is shut down, as the liberal scientific Left have accomplished, then those on the Left can no longer call themselves objective scientists. Both sides agree about the data, these are objective things, the divide is in explaining what the data means.

As to my old friend Sparkless, he is here mostly for comic relief! You now, a . . . clown!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 5, 2008 at 06:08 pm

Sally: Actually, Sparkie actually verified(with his intolerant, hateful rant) the point of this thread.  To the lefties, it’s human nature that has to change; it must become more “random”, and lose that rationality that underlies individual independence.  You see, if an individual, through his intelligence and rationality, can independently arrive at the answers, what need does he or she have for the State?  On the other hand, if everything is “random”, with no central unifying principle(God), then any authority figure can assume leadership of “the proletariat” with a compelling ideology, like Marxism or Islam, one that has all the “answers”.  This is what Clinton and Obama want: a “proletariat” with no mind of its own, ready to do their bidding, to willingly work to support them and their “programs”.  No more messy independent thinking.  Anyone not falling in line will be “medicated”...or worse.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 5, 2008 at 06:11 pm

Robert108: Your last comments were very thought provoking! Thank you!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 5, 2008 at 06:29 pm

Neiman, I strongly agree with you on two points.

First, that R108 makes some excellent observations and this:

Both sides agree about the data, these are objective things, the divide is in explaining what the data means.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on April 5, 2008 at 06:59 pm

You’re welcome, Neiman!


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 5, 2008 at 08:56 pm

...now, back to the actual content of the thread…

Not even close, Sparkie.  You are as far off-topic as you usually are.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 5, 2008 at 08:59 pm

r108
I am off topic? look at what you wrote, ass, before you say i am off topic. apparently i struck a serious nerve. none of you guys have the psychic fortitude to buddy up to the contingencies and accidents that have preceded. if delusion makes you act nicely, who am i to disparage it (all the same, it is fun to do). also, the epistemic block you spoke of r108, between us and the future, is real. unfortunately the world doesn’t wait for us to look at it to become determinant. you sound to me like sartre. are you into left bank socialist existentialism?
what’s more, if one is not inspired and awed after having appreciated some of the implications of evolution, in a manner that is bona fide and puts god to shame, for the amazing accidentalness of our existence in this giant causal mess, i don’t really know what one should be inspired by.
also, right after you complain about intolerance, perhaps its not best to return with the suggestion i should be put in a straight jacket. just a style pointer.
r108, you can kid yourself about how special you are, and other humans are, but i don’t buy it. what’s more, i feel my position is consistent with a non-vulgar, robust form of christianity. devoid of homophobic homos and the other horrible hypocritic heresies. the avarice that televangelists display, the hatred so many christians carry around… of anyone unlike themselves - look at this good christian country, full of people who are less christian than my pinkie finger… and i am an atheist. you guys have lost your transcendental turn and substituted an intellectual dead end replete with repression. i was talking to one of my friends who was raised christian the other day and she was telling me about being a teen and turning agnostic when she realized that, as a young girl, she had wished to be dead… so as to be in heaven… the best place. fucked up.
now go and rant about how irrational al qaeda’s belief in the world beyond is foolish because its not the same as yours, tarts.
also, you guys are just pissed because your presidental candidate is HILLDOG the man! hee hee hee. take it out on all the effing moderates among you, the pro abortion GOPers.
i think Jeffords sounded the deal toll for your party. you guys chose big govvy, one branch. now bush is easing us into a euro-style controlled market. look, he’s doing it. and you bitch about mccain. and you call me a liberal! for shame!


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 5, 2008 at 09:30 pm

also, you rational self-interested free agent model is bogus. you are ‘embedded’, so to speak. not in the social positivist sense of the word.

nominalism


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 5, 2008 at 09:37 pm

I am off topic?

Yes.  The topic of this thread is what Clinton and Obama mean by “change”.  I thought it was obvious from the title, but there’s no underestimating your ignorance.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 5, 2008 at 10:53 pm

i was not saying that people who dont believe in evolution need to be medicated.

if you uphold god, condemn evolution for lack of proof, and rant about the irrational tendencies of the secular left, you need to be fucking medicated

Wow Sparkie, you could have fooled me!  See, you go off on a random rant about how Christians are crazy and need to be medicated because they don’t believe in the theory of evolution and then try to backtrack when someone calls you on it.

i was talking to one of my friends who was raised christian the other day and she was telling me about being a teen and turning agnostic when she realized that, as a young girl, she had wished to be dead… so as to be in heaven… the best place. fucked up.

I am glad that you are not lumping all Christians into the same category as one of your friends who turned away from Christianity.  Guess what?  Communist governments have killed people for saying they believed in God.  Would it thus be fair for me to say that all athiests, yourself included, wishes to kill everyone with faith?  Of course not!!!

one, we can prove evolution in a lab in a week or two.

I once again ask you for a link to prove what you are saying.  Can you give me just one link to this wonderful proof that you claim instead of saying that I have a slanted view of evolution?



A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

dougee on April 6, 2008 at 09:20 am

It has always seemed to me that evolution within a species is quite logical, and isn’t random at all.  “Survival of the fittest” is a process guided by intelligence at some level; some individuals within that species do better than others, and those reproduce more, and thus dominate.  The characteristics that make them successful aren’t random, either.
The extension of the theory of evolution to cover creation is a step incapable of proof, IMO, and is a matter of faith.  Evolution has everything to say how well something does after it has been created, but nothing whatsoever about the creation process.  As I said before, my opinion about why lefties embrace “randomness” is that it relieves them of responsibility for the consequences of their actions, and also supports moral relativity, which frees them from judgment for what they do.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 6, 2008 at 09:27 am

now go and rant about how irrational al qaeda’s belief in the world beyond is foolish because its not the same as yours, tarts.

Many Christians belief Islam’s view that if you murder innocent civilians you will be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven.  One would think that a level-headed non-fundamentalist atheist would be able to agree with Christians on that one.  Yeah our view of the afterlife is different.  We believe that we will be united with a loving God without 72 women as sex slaves for us.  Sounds pretty crazy doesn’t it Sparkie?

also, you guys are just pissed because your presidental candidate is HILLDOG the man! hee hee hee. take it out on all the effing moderates among you, the pro abortion GOPers.

For one Hillary would be the democratic candidate for president, therefore not the candidate of very many conservative GOP voters.  Sparkie, why don’t you try to be level headed for once when posting a comment instead of just going off on a rant?  I think the former would suite you better.



A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

dougee on April 6, 2008 at 09:28 am
Proof
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It has always seemed to me that evolution within a species is quite logical, and isn’t random at all.

That’s “natural selection”, not “evolution”. Evolutionists like to confuse the two terms, since natural selection is more easily provable.

If a species of moth has both white and black coloration in its gene pool, and the white moths are more easily spotted by predators due to changes in the environment, the “black” moth has not “evolved” if it survives in greater numbers. It remains the same species.

But, I’m sure that Sparkie and others would rather have this discussion than to stick to the topic of what “change” means when a leftist like Obama says it!



Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Proof on April 6, 2008 at 09:44 am

Robert108: I have no problem at all with evolution within a kind as you suggested, I do have a big problem with evolution between different kinds; i.e, a monkey becoming a man. That would require not just fossil evidence of a fully formed, vertical transitional kind (half monkey/half man, but we should expect massive fossil evidence of that exact type throughout the fossil records and so far - nada!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 6, 2008 at 09:53 am

Proof/Neiman: Sorry for the imprecise language.  It seems obvious to me that humans and apes are morphologically related, but the leap of consciousness from ape to human is not explainable by the theory of evolution.  Even a transitional form would not illustrate the leap of consciousness that exists.

Of course, Sparkie needs to change the subject so that his narcissism can come into full function.  He has nowhere to go with the original message of this thread, and so meanders off into an area in which he imagines he has some knowledge.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 6, 2008 at 09:57 am

Proof.  Right, and the evolutionists glued the black/white moth to the white/black tree and then took a picture and had it published in our public school textbooks.  Yet another liberal lie.  Busted in Scientific American, January, 2001?  It has been a while and I gave my copy to a co-worker.

But on topic.  Do they want to change our country from freedom to communism?
That is the question.  Will we be allowed to think and act freely or completely controlled by a proletariat of liberal “thinkers”.  I think not.  We must reveal The Truth about their true ideology.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 6, 2008 at 10:22 am

and to think that this thread almost disappeared off the first page without a comment.

dougee, r108, proof
first, in my defense, i evoked this stuff originally to go after the secular left’s concept of progress. totally on topic.

r108, your understanding of biology is clearly well below sub-par. i am done engaging you on this point.

dougee, here’s one of countless links.

After running the chemostats for months and counting predator and prey populations day by day, the computer model’s prediction proved correct. Populations of a single algal clone quickly rose and fell almost in synchrony with the numbers of rotifers. But the algae with some genetic variation to draw on enjoyed longer periods when they were abundant and their predators were few—along with agonizingly long periods when they struggled to rebuild their populations.

Instead of millions of years, the algae were evolving in a few weeks.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2008 at 04:25 pm

i am done engaging you on this point.

You never even started.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 7, 2008 at 04:37 pm
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