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Tuesday, July 01, 2008

What Conservatives Hate More Than Lefties Is…

MODERATES!  Utter that word in the company of staunch conservatives and be prepared for apoplectic stares, attacks of the vapors and the stacking of bundled faggots around the pole at which you will no doubt be burned alive.

In this highly polarized and politically charged first decade of the 21st Century, conservatives know the enemy when they see it. While they detest the liberal wing - frequently referred to as ‘lefties’ - they can at least identify common traits which they share. Both are committed to an almost pure, distilled ideology, both are minority branches of a larger whole, and both will never budge from principles which they regard as sacred and immutable. 

Like the crusaders and muslims of the 12th century - each bent on the inihilation of the other’s faith before the gates of Jerusalem - conservatives and liberals share a grudging admiration for the staunchness of their opponent’s views.

But Moderates!  From a conservative prospective, moderates are loathsome and detestable apostates, despised for their apparent spinelesss lack of principle. They are - horror of horrors! - pragmatists!  Like lepers of the Dark Ages, they are infected by a heinous disease - compromise !

Cursed by a willingness to engage the other side in dialogue and seek bipartisan - oh, that word! - solutions, moderates are frequently described as traitors, or worse.

Early in the primary season, Fred Thompson was revered, even deified as the personification of unflinching, uncompromising conservative principle.  His demise at the polls was attributed to weak-kneed, vascillating moderate republicans and cross-over moderate dems, who, to their everlasting shame, chose John McCain, the ultimate symbol of cross-the-aisle, unprincipled moderation.

Conservatives could understand Obama’s win. His victory, as they saw it, was the result of unflinching adherence to liberal principle. Reading the essays of staunch conservatives carefully, one detects a wistful, grudging admiration for the leftie triumph in the selection of the senator from Illinois.

Not so, John McCain. He has been, and will continue to be, vilified for a senate record of compromise and cooperation with the democrats.  Never mind that all legislation is the result of bipartisanship and that all presidents have curried the support of the other party, McCain is the living symbol of pragmatic and unprincipled sleeping with the enemy.

Two examples will suffice.  Even though McCain voted for the 700 hundred mile border fence legislation in 2006 and has sworn to keep border security as his first priority - positions at wide variance with Obama - he remains committed to comprehensive immigration reform. Conservatives view this as a total sell-out of principle, even though President Bush, along with most moderates, hold the same view.

On energy, John McCain is even further to the right of Obama, having called for off-shore drilling, eliminating the federal fuel tax, the construction of new refineries and nuclear power plants, and empowering states to control their own resources. Yet, he is lambasted by conservatives for not including ANWR [at least not yet] and for proposing a carbon cap and trade scheme - both moderate policies.

McCain’s greatest sin is not that these modest proposals are not steeped in conservative ideology, it is that they appeal to moderates!  He has committed the cardinal sin.

Political wonks of every stripe will continue to opine on the candidates, their positions, their records and their ideology or lack of it, right up to election day, but, with one significant difference: liberal lefties will savage John McCain and so will conservatives.

Moderation, it seems, is still no virtue.

Comments

I could swear you are talking about someone I debate with here at SAB.

ellinas on July 1, 2008 at 07:19 am

Moderately speaking, I probably am… and likely more than one.  smile


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 07:23 am

Moderation is good.

ellinas on July 1, 2008 at 07:28 am

Obama is a moderate.


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob


realitybasedbob's signature
realitybasedbob on July 1, 2008 at 07:36 am

pparets
And now for the counter argument.

There is a group who comment on this blog who identify themselves as conservatives. They screech when anyone discusses ‘political theory’ because its too far removed from reality on the ground. On the ground, we are urged, the situation is dire. The leftist commies are over-running the fort.
If, in this election, a ‘conservative’ makes the compromise and votes for mccain… and repeats that same compromise in the following two elections… he will then be voting Democrat. That’s right, this slippery slope puts you two elections away from voting socialist. How’s it feel?
You are, in my mind, making the old, beaten-to-death sacrifice for the good of the people argument. Its a leftist argument, according to commentators around here.
Also, I can’t help but notice the chauvinism you express. You clearly feel your decision is correct, and pity those who don’t agree, at the same time you attack ideologues. What? Look in the mirror when you type these sorts of posts, eh?

I will vote for neither of the popular candidates. I pity those who buy into and fuel this binary system that doesn’t allow us to choose representation in any meaningful manner. That’s my ideologue chauvinism. Give us a choice, for fucks sake.


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Sparkie Arbuckle on July 1, 2008 at 07:43 am

sparkie: In your haste to engage in a debate - any debate! - you overlook one simple thing.

Nowhere do I indicate what I plan to do in November, because, frankly, I don’t yet know what I will do.

Nor do I attack ideologues.

Nor do I express any chauvinism.

Nor do I express the slightest pity for anyone.

Other than that, thank you for your typically rambling, incoherent post.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 08:32 am

Rev. 3:16


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on July 1, 2008 at 08:42 am

pparets,

I actually ascribe Obama’s success in the Democratic Primaries to the following:

*Blank Slate.  Having no accomplishments means having no record to clarify or justify.  See also John Kerry (who did have a non-blank slate, prior to his election to the Senate which sank him.

*Ability to talk convincingly out of both sides of his neck.

*Not a Clinton.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on July 1, 2008 at 08:50 am

pparets
still considering Obama eh?


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Sparkie Arbuckle on July 1, 2008 at 11:42 am

A conservative-bashing post from a McCain supporter; what a surprise!  /sarcasm


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 12:34 pm

pp: Your most egregious error here is to assign emotional motives(hate) to people who are thinkers, instead of “feelers”.  Big mistake.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Unless you think that the Constitution and the Founding Principles, like individual independence, personal freedom, economic freedom, religious freedom and political freedom are “extreme”, conservatives are the true moderates.  We are somewhere in the middle between the totalitarianism/collectivism of both the extreme left(Marxists) and the extreme Right(Neonazis and Black Muslims/Islamofascists).  We favor limited govt over either totalitarian govt or the violent factionalism of anarchy.
Study up.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 12:39 pm

pp
you made r108 really upset. three in a row!


2mwvv2g.jpg

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 1, 2008 at 12:47 pm

sparkless-arse-fuckin-buckle,

Adding your usual lack of content, I see.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on July 1, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Consider this scenario:

You have been accused of a capital crime, meaning the kind that can put you away for life or get you the chair.

Question:

Do you want a sonofabitch defender or a moderate?

A SOB is going to require the prosecution to prove up to every point of their case and throw up some defenses for added measure.  Say, for instance, your prosecutor’s last name is Nifong.

A moderate will be polite and accommodating, and when the State offers up its throat in a faux-pas, the moderate, being the gentlemen he is, will let it slide.

It may well be that his penchant for going along to get along will cost you your life.

Still want a moderate?

In that scenario, the Defender is vindicating but a single persons’ rights.

In politics, we elect Senators, Representatives and Presidents to champion our rights, and for those of us who call ourselves Conservative, those rights are defined by the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence.

In daily life, it is the practice of moderates—in the name of going along to get along—to trade away our rights under the Constitution for some ephemeral promises or unrequited hopes that things will get better down the road, a better day to fight will come, but not now. 

For now, yet another sliver of freedom has been sliced off the top.

Well pardon me if I demand my full rights under the full Constitution, not the riven-with-holes parchments the moderates have left us over the years.

You must recognize that our opposition is in reality, the enemy to the Constitution.  You need only listen to their words when defending gun bans in Washington, Chicago or California, or the dire need for more taxes at the state, local and federal levels, or an appeal to apply foreign law, rather than the Constitution which their oaths commands them to support and defend.

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. ... Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
- Barry Goldwater


...for great justice

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Move_Zig on July 1, 2008 at 01:45 pm

Once again, we have the redefinition game: gay relationships are called “marriage”; invading parasites are called “immigrants”, and weak-kneed appeasers are called “moderates”.  We call raising taxes “fairness”, we define the sort of return necessary to sustain a business that serves all of us to increase our prosperity as “obscene profits”.
It’s a propaganda war.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 01:57 pm

If, in this election, a ‘conservative’ makes the compromise and votes for mccain… and repeats that same compromise in the following two elections… he will then be voting Democrat. That’s right, this slippery slope puts you two elections away from voting socialist. How’s it feel?

Also notice that McCain and Obama could switch a few real policies, all the grandstanding aside, and they would be the same candidate. It says a lot about our choices.


2mwvv2g.jpg

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 1, 2008 at 01:58 pm

Sparkie: You’re way late to this party, but at least you finally caught on.  Good for you.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 02:03 pm

...proposing a carbon cap and trade scheme - both moderate policies.

Establishing what is essentially a govt-controlled energy rationing system(along with another huge govt bureaucracy) is hardly “moderate”; it’s just more socialist totalitarianism and elimination of yet more personal and economic freedom.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 02:05 pm

Uncle Robert108. Looks like pparets irked you a lot.
6 out of 18 posts to this thread are yours. Wow! You are in damage control mode.

ellinas on July 1, 2008 at 05:39 pm

Lots of untruths require lots of refutations.  Duh.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 05:48 pm

r108:  A view different than yours is not an untruth.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 06:51 pm

You stand in the middle of the road? You get your ass run over. End of story.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 1, 2008 at 07:03 pm

r108: A view different than yours is not an untruth.

I never said it was, so you mischaracterize me, as usual.  The truth is, in an intelligent and ethical debate/discussion, it always comes down to principles and values, not invalidation, insult or attack.  No mischaracterization is necessary when intelligence and ethics are present.
I make the case for what I support, and only ask that those who disagree with me do the same; sadly, that rarely happens.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 07:43 pm

robert108:

Lots of untruths require lots of refutation.

Are you intellectually incapable of following your own threads?


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 07:48 pm

Are you intellectually incapable of following your own threads?

Are you capable, on any level, of making any sort of logical or factual argument?  You seem to be stuck at the level of attempting to win by personal invalidation.  I know you would make an effective argument on the facts, if you could.

I was specifically referring to e man’s avalanche of bullshit over a long period of time, as well as your almost exclusive use of personal attack.
Instead of giving either facts or logic to support your position, you try to invalidate me; it ain’t ever gonna work for you.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 07:57 pm

Nice dodge, robert108… but you indeed said that, “lots of untruths require lots of refutations”, and then you denied saying it with, “I never said it was”.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling, and don’t bother covering your crap with the “factual”, “personal”, “logical” bullshit you fling about when you are caught red-handed.

Your concept of debating is a sad, transparent joke, intended to allow you to always proclaim yourself the winner.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 08:16 pm

Nice dodge, robert108… but you indeed said that, “lots of untruths require lots of refutations”, and then you denied saying it with, “I never said it was”.

More dishonesty from you, pp.  Misquoting me won’t work, either.  You are trying to connect two different replies to two different subjects in order to assault my credibility.  Again, you present no logical or factual argument, instead relying on personal attack through subterfuge.  Bad dog!

The truth:

subject #!, with reply #1:

r108: A view different than yours is not an untruth.

I never said it was, so you mischaracterize me, as usual. 

I never said that views other than mine are untrue; I only asked that a valid argument be made for the opposing view.

subject #2, with reply #2(separate comment from #1):

Are you intellectually incapable of following your own threads?

Are you capable, on any level, of making any sort of logical or factual argument?  You seem to be stuck at the level of attempting to win by personal invalidation.  I know you would make an effective argument on the facts, if you could.

I was specifically referring to e man’s avalanche of bullshit over a long period of time, as well as your almost exclusive use of personal attack.
Instead of giving either facts or logic to support your position, you try to invalidate me; it ain’t ever gonna work for you.

As can easily be seen, the statements you dishonestly tried to combine were actually two different replies to two separate attacks by you.  In both, I offered factual and logical arguments against your faulty conclusions.

Try to be honest, pp; this kind of stuff should be beneath you.
I know you would make a logical and factual counter argument, if you had one.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 08:27 pm

Grow up, robert108:  Your “Lots of untruths require lots of refutations” response was made to ellinas, not to me.

Like I said, you are having serious trouble following your own threads.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on July 1, 2008 at 08:35 pm

This conservative tries to go through life without expending the incredibly taxing and incredibly wasteful energy manifested through the form of hate.

Hate not your worst enemy as that hate tends to cloud the vision. Hate is blinding and only serves to weaken. It is better to be solidly against with eyes wide open.

That said, the back-patting self-given label of “moderate” is slightly nauseating and often wholly inaccurate. Such a description can fool the mind into thinking that there is always a middle, when much of the time there is only a right and a wrong. The description itself is very chauvinistic, and comes off in much the same way as “progressive” or “reality based”. It is less a description of the beliefs as it is the assuredness of which the believer believes it to be true.

likwidshoe on July 1, 2008 at 09:16 pm

Grow up, robert108: Your “Lots of untruths require lots of refutations” response was made to ellinas, not to me.

I have already given you a detailed explanation of this, but apparently you weren’t able to comprehend it. My reply was directed to e, but it was to his statement about all my comments on your thread.  Get it now?
You continue to be stuck in the rut of trying to prevail with personal attack.  It won’t work for you.  Any time you want to give an honest reply, I would welcome it.  Your continued low-level discourse has become very tiresome.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on July 1, 2008 at 09:20 pm
Avatar for Nunez

This thread has turned into a competition of argumentation.

Nunez on July 1, 2008 at 09:41 pm

Such a description can fool the mind into thinking that there is always a middle, when much of the time there is only a right and a wrong.

or there is a right, wrong, and about 10 other views, none of which fall inbetween the ‘right’ and the ‘wrong’.

moderates are the idiots who mediate between socialism (left) and fascism (right). the split the turd down the middle and feast. down with populism!


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Sparkie Arbuckle on July 2, 2008 at 07:01 am

socialism and fascism are on the same side of the political divide.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 2, 2008 at 09:55 am

2H9,

Yep.  Thus WWII in Europe was a wholly created disaster of the left.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on July 2, 2008 at 09:59 am
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