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Saturday, October 27, 2007

Interesting and Insightful Look at Atheism

What Atheists Can't Answer


By Michael Gerson
Friday, July 13, 2007; Page A17

British author G.K. Chesterton argued that every act of blasphemy is a kind of tribute to God, because it is based on belief. "If anyone doubts this," he wrote, "let him sit down seriously and try to think blasphemous thoughts about Thor."

By the evidence of the New York Times bestseller list, God has recently been bathed in such tributes. An irreverent trinity -- Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins -- has sold a lot of books accusing theism of fostering hatred, repressing sexuality and mutilating children (Hitchens doesn't approve of male circumcision). Every miracle is a fraud. Every mystic is a madman. And this atheism is presented as a war of liberation against centuries of spiritual tyranny.

Proving God's existence in 750 words or fewer would daunt even Thomas Aquinas. And I suspect that a certain kind of skeptic would remain skeptical even after a squadron of angels landed on his front lawn. So I merely want to pose a question: If the atheists are right, what would be the effect on human morality?

If God were dethroned as the arbiter of moral truth, it would not, of course, mean that everyone joins the Crips or reports to the Playboy mansion. On evidence found in every culture, human beings can be good without God. And Hitchens is himself part of the proof. I know him to be intellectually courageous and unfailingly kind, when not ruthlessly flaying opponents for taking minor exception to his arguments. There is something innate about morality that is distinct from theological conviction. This instinct may result from evolutionary biology, early childhood socialization or the chemistry of the brain, but human nature is somehow constructed for sympathy and cooperative purpose.

But there is a problem. Human nature, in other circumstances, is also clearly constructed for cruel exploitation, uncontrollable rage, icy selfishness and a range of other less desirable traits.

So the dilemma is this: How do we choose between good and bad instincts? Theism, for several millennia, has given one answer: We should cultivate the better angels of our nature because the God we love and respect requires it. While many of us fall tragically short, the ideal remains.

Atheism provides no answer to this dilemma. It cannot reply: "Obey your evolutionary instincts" because those instincts are conflicted. "Respect your brain chemistry" or "follow your mental wiring" don't seem very compelling either. It would be perfectly rational for someone to respond: "To hell with my wiring and your socialization, I'm going to do whatever I please." C.S. Lewis put the argument this way: "When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains."

Some argue that a careful determination of our long-term interests -- a fear of bad consequences -- will constrain our selfishness. But this is particularly absurd. Some people are very good at the self-centered exploitation of others. Many get away with it their whole lives. By exercising the will to power, they are maximizing one element of their human nature. In a purely material universe, what possible moral basis could exist to condemn them? Atheists can be good people; they just have no objective way to judge the conduct of those who are not.

The death of God has greater consequences than expanded golf time on Sunday mornings. And it is not simply religious fundamentalists who have recognized it. America's Founders embraced public neutrality on matters of religion, but they were not indifferent to the existence of religious faith. George Washington warned against the "supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." The Founders generally believed that the virtues necessary for self-government -- self-sacrifice, honesty, public spirit -- were strengthened by religious beliefs and institutions.

None of this amounts to proof of God's existence. But it clarifies a point of agreement -- which reveals an even deeper division. Atheists and theists seem to agree that human beings have an innate desire for morality and purpose. For the theist, this is perfectly understandable: We long for love, harmony and sympathy because we are intended by a Creator to find them. In a world without God, however, this desire for love and purpose is a cruel joke of nature -- imprinted by evolution, but destined for disappointment, just as we are destined for oblivion, on a planet that will be consumed by fire before the sun grows dim and cold.

This form of "liberation" is like liberating a plant from the soil or a whale from the ocean. In this kind of freedom, something dies.

michaelgerson@cfr.org

Comments

Rob
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What is it we can’t answer?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on October 27, 2007 at 11:56 am

Sorry Rob, I hit the “enter” key accidentally.


“I’m not giving tax cuts for the rich.”

—Discussion with media, reported in “Bush, McCain Snip Over
Tax Cut Plans,” Los Angeles Times, and “GOP Rivals Bicker on Taxes,”
Washington Post, Jan. 5, 2000.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 11:58 am
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Sorry, the post wasn’t showing up when I commented.

If the atheists are right, what would be the effect on human morality?

What I’m wondering is why people need to define morality using the mythos of a supernatural father-figure in the sky who will punish you if you do bad?

I, personally, don’t need to base my morals on belief in omniscient, omnipotent supernatural beings.  “The Golden Rule” is enough for me, generally.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on October 27, 2007 at 12:01 pm
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I don’t know what you mean by a “need”.  Objective morality does imply a moral law and therefor a lawgiver, i.e., God.  But that alone does not necessitate a belief in divine judgment.

The “golden rule” is not objective.  What you may do to others does not restrain or condition anothers dealings with others.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 12:22 pm
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It seems to me that Atheists embrace morality as a means deriving its virtue from its end—healthy society.  But why is a healthy society so important if not for our “innate desire” for happiness.  And how is it that for all to have happiness morality must be present. Isn’t that necessity proof morality is objective?

HG on October 27, 2007 at 12:48 pm
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Another thought is:

Isn’t the forcing of the morality of the majority on all of society really socially tyranny? 
This is the opposite of the claim made by those who regret the fact that the majority of US citizens are religious and that moral absolutes influence our law and subsequently social behavior.  Where moral absolutes are present, all are subjected to the same standard; a standard that is universal and not defined by human authority or group of individuals and therefore equally applicable to all.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 01:05 pm

If the atheists are right, what would be the effect on human morality?

Nothing. How would you know if the atheists are right?

Silly question.

A better question would be to ask what would the effect on human morality be if humanity didn’t believe in God?

My answer is more mayhem and murder. People are assholes. Take away a big source of the consequence for their behaviors and they’ll start behaving more like the animals they are.

I personally don’t have much faith in humanity. Human beings NEED God in order to act in a moral manner. Not all of us, of course, but many.

So the dilemma is this: How do we choose between good and bad instincts? Theism, for several millennia, has given one answer: We should cultivate the better angels of our nature because the God we love and respect requires it. While many of us fall tragically short, the ideal remains.

Atheism provides no answer to this dilemma.

It’s not a question for atheism. It’s a requirement tacked on by believers.

In a world without God, however, this desire for love and purpose is a cruel joke of nature—imprinted by evolution, but destined for disappointment, just as we are destined for oblivion, on a planet that will be consumed by fire before the sun grows dim and cold.

How dark and dire. The theists need to stop talking for the atheists and the agnostics. It gets pretty insulting at times and it doesn’t look like the people who do the talking even realize what they’re doing.

This agnostic sees a harsh life, but one that is beautifully filled with love, cute little girls, a mother’s bond, and etcetera forever. Life is beautiful.

“A cruel joke of nature”? “Destined for disappointment”? How depressing. Life is too short to view it that way.

Stop attempting to speak for atheists and agnostics!

likwidshoe on October 27, 2007 at 01:07 pm
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It’s not a question for atheism.

I think even atheists come accross moral dilemmas every now and again.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 01:24 pm
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Life is beautiful.

Doesn’t morality contribute a great deal to life’s beauty?

HG on October 27, 2007 at 01:28 pm

Isn’t the forcing of the morality of the majority on all of society really socially tyranny?

Compared to what; forcing the morality of the minority on all of society?
Actually, that is the definition of tyranny: forcing the will of a minority on the majority.  Following the will of the majority(with input from the minority) is called self-determination.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 27, 2007 at 01:28 pm

BTW, the Golden Rule is proactive, not reactive.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 27, 2007 at 01:32 pm
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R108, it is the atheist and others who speak out against the “spiritual tyrrany” of religion.  Being that the majority of Americans consider themselves to be religious, having laws influenced by say the ten commandments (given the majority agree), would not be spiritual tyrrany by your definition. 

Personally I believe moral absolutes exist.  Therefore, the forcing of society to abide by laws influenced by the acknowledgment of moral absolutes is not in any way tyrrany being that they are applicable to all equally without partiality to any one’s or group’s relative morality.

BTW, the Golden Rule is proactive, not reactive.

Please elaborate.  I fail to see the significance of this in relation to it being subjective.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 01:46 pm

HG: I spoke of tyranny in general, and I think that definition applies in all cases.

My understanding of the Golden Rule is that it is about setting an example, not trying to manipulate others.  You do what you know is right, no matter what someone else may do.  It’s the opposite of situational ethics.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 27, 2007 at 01:58 pm

HG - I think even atheists come accross moral dilemmas every now and again.

Well of course, but that wasn’t the question posed.

The question posed, more accurately the statement posed, was that atheism provides no answer to the dilemma of good and bad.

Rob answered with “The Golden Rule”, but because it isn’t “objective” as determined by you, it’s an answer that is denied.

I will say that I don’t exactly claim “The Golden Rule” myself because you’re right in a way, it’s not very objective. “Do onto others as you would have others do onto you” means something quite different to a socialist than to me, for example. That said, I do follow “The Golden Rule” in my own life. But I don’t kid myself that this lack of objectivity is unique.

I don’t know what you’re looking for HG, but I know that you’re never going to find it if you insist on denying that people can find morality without religion or God. People’s views on God’s “Objective” with a capital ‘O’ morality is contested any time you bring two people together. It’s about as “objective” as those who follow “The Golden Rule”.

likwidshoe on October 27, 2007 at 03:07 pm
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My understanding of the Golden Rule is that it is about setting an example, not trying to manipulate others.

Okay, thanks.  You’re right of course.  However, what example is set depends upon the morals relative to the one setting it, as lik points out.  That was what I meant by the “golden rule” not being objective.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 05:43 pm

That was what I meant by the “golden rule” not being objective.

Absolutely.  It’s a much different thing for an altruist and a sadomasochist, for example.  That would also seem to include a Christian and an atheist.
My take on objectivity is that it’s not very common with human beings, no matter what they may think.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 27, 2007 at 05:57 pm
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Rob answered with “The Golden Rule”, but because it isn’t “objective” as determined by you, it’s an answer that is denied.

Oh contraire, not denied.  The reason I pointed out the ‘golden rule’ is not objective was to show Rob’s answer makes the author’s point.

If there is no absolute morality and all morality is relative, then enforcing an individual’s or group’s morality upon all is to make for all intents and purposes, the morality of others, absolute.  Forcing some to behave by other’s relative morality is to make others the moral authority to which there is no appeal.  There is no equality, for no objective moral judgments exist.  There is no justice.  There is no fairness.  Those who disagree are forced to serve the conscience of others.  So much for liberty, this sounds more like tyranny.

Hell, lets just all live like the rest of the animal kingdom… who needs society.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 06:36 pm
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I don’t know what you’re looking for HG, but I know that you’re never going to find it if you insist on denying that people can find morality without religion or God.

I insist no such thing.  I agree with the author on this point.  Many moral atheists exist. 

What I’m getting at is the impossibility of unalienable rights outside of moral absolutes.  In other words moral relativism is contradicted by the presence of unalienable rights endowed by our Creator.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 06:50 pm

What boggles my mind is why many atheists are bent on removing the mention of God from those that believe in a divine being.  If these athiest were comfortable in their non-belief, one would think that they would be more tolerant of those that believe.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on October 27, 2007 at 07:32 pm
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many atheists are bent on removing the mention of God from those that believe in a divine being.

That would be those mentioned at the beginning of the article.  These have no problem with enforcing their own morality on all of society, just don’t attempt to force moral absolutes on all equally otherwise they’re offended and scream “spiritual tyrrany”. 

If one believes morality is only relative one has not ground to object when society’s laws reflect the morality of the majority whether it be religious or otherwise.

HG on October 27, 2007 at 07:40 pm

If one believes morality is only relative one has not ground to object when society’s laws reflect the morality of the majority whether it be religious or otherwise.

Not taking issue with you, hg, but the whole concept of being tolerant of ones belief (or unbelief in the case of atheist) is grounded in our constitution where in the First amendment it states that regarding religion (which is just another name for ones beliefs) that the free exercise should not be prohibited. [Not a damn thing about the fallacious seperation of church and state!!] That means that one should be able to freely exercise their beliefs in whatever manor they wish without interference from others.  The only possible gray area is when ones beliefs dramatically interfer with others who do not share that belief.  This exception is widely used by atheists that claim injury because of someones godly belief.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on October 27, 2007 at 09:02 pm
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Jumping back up to the top:

I don’t know what you mean by a “need”.  Objective morality does imply a moral law and therefor a lawgiver, i.e., God.  But that alone does not necessitate a belief in divine judgment.

Except, the premise of the question in your post implies that a belief in a supernatural “lawgiver” is necessary.  The title of the piece is “What Atheists Can’t Answer.” The question is “If atheists are right [that there is no God] what would be the effect on human morality.”

I’m questioning why “God” is necessary for humans to interpret what is and his not moral.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on October 27, 2007 at 09:12 pm
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The problem I have with the religious norm is their pacifism and their cry for humanity. For instance they take quotes from areas of the Holy Bible which they claim as proof but contradicts the entire passage along with the entire bible itself.

It’s nothing more than a marketing ploy which denounces offensive characteristics and totally annihilates it’s bedrock to please it’s alienated masses.

Atheists who believe solely in survival of the fittest, and even those who believe in Wotanism is a healthier and less destructive to me than this crowd of goody too shoe pleaser’s who wants to be every bodies friend.

Jesus died for the sins of the world yet all I hear is let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Why are you putting this sin upon me again?

Occupy to Jesus returns does not mean to lay down and die. You lost your fight and your as good as dead, you have succumbed to a sickness.

Like Job everything you have will be taken because of your own ignorance. Do you hear the call of the Good Shepherd? Or are you going to redefine righteousness?

WETBACK on October 27, 2007 at 11:40 pm
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Doc,

Correct.  The freedom of religion (belief or unbelief) stems from our unalienable rights endowed by our creator.  But if atheists are correct, no unalienable rights exist and all must be subject to the moral conscience of the majority in any given society.  Hence, there is no freedom of religion endowed by our Creator only that which is granted to society by the majority.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 12:12 pm
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I’m questioning why “God” is necessary for humans to interpret what is and his not moral.

What is and is not moral stems from moral absolutes with theists.  Those moral absolutes reflect the will of the one possessing perfect morality, i.e., God. 

I’ve yet to hear proof of moral absolutes without a moral lawgiver.  It seems you can’t have one without the other. 

However, many atheists live very moral lives.  I agree with the author that morality is not contingent upon a belief in God, but moral authority is.  The point is without moral authority all morality is relative and there is no objective standard by which to judge what is or is not moral.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Man is Only Matter without a Soul: On one occasion a lecturer was giving a lecture in atheism, while the audience sat quietly hearing all the arguments against God and about the stupidity of believing in Christ. The atheist lecturer proceeded to prove there is no spiritual world, no God, no Christ and no hereafter. He said man is only matter with no soul. He said over and over that only matter exists.

A Christian stood up and asked if he could say something.  The Christian picked up a folding chair and threw it down. He paused, looking at it for several moments. He then walked up in front of the atheist lecturer and slapped him in the face. The atheist was very angry; his face was flushed red with indignation. He shouted obscenities at the Christian and he demanded, “How did you dare to slap me? What is the reason?

The Christian replied, “You have just proven yourself to be a liar. You said everything is matter, nothing else. I picked up the chair and threw it down. Because it truly is only matter, the chair did not become angry. Yet, when I slapped you, you did not react like the chair, you reacted quite differently. Matter does not get mad or angry, but you did; therefore, you are wrong. Man is more than matter. We are spiritual beings!”

All Life Testifies of God: If you were invited to a feast with all kinds of good food, would you believe that there had been nobody to prepare them? No, you would assume someone prepared the meal. But nature is a glorious banquet prepared for us! We have tomatoes and peaches and apples and milk and honey, but we must ask ourselves, who has prepared all these things for mankind? Was it Nature? No, because nature is blind! If you believe in NO GOD, how can you explain that a blind and disinterested nature has succeeded in preparing just the things we need in such plentitude and variety?

Suppose that we could speak with an embryo in his mother’s womb and that you would tell him that the embryonic life is only a short one after which follows a real, a long life. What would the embryo answer? He would say just what you, atheists would say to us, when we speak to you about paradise and hell. He would say that the life in the mother’s womb is the only one and that everything else is religious foolishness. But if the embryo could think, he would say, “Arms grow on me and yet I do not need them here, I cannot even stretch them, so why do they grow? They are probably growing for a future stage of my existence, in which I will have to work with them. My legs grow, but I have to keep them bent towards my breast. Why do they grow? My legs probably grow because life in a larger world follows, where I will have to walk. My eyes grow, although I am surrounded by perfect darkness and I don’t need them. Why do I get eyes? I probably have eyes because a world with light and colors will follow.”

So, if the embryo could reflect about his own development, he would know that there must be a life outside his mother’s womb, without even having seen it. It is the same thing with us, as long as we are young; we have vigor, but no mind to use it aright. When, over our years of life we have grown in knowledge and wisdom, then the funeral wagon waits for us to take us to the grave. That grave being our common, inescapable fate, why was it necessary for me to grow in a knowledge and wisdom, which will be of no more use to me? Why do arms, legs and eyes grow on an embryo? These things grow on us because it is for a life that follows that state of existence. So it is with us here in this life, we grow here in experience, knowledge and wisdom for a life that follows this one. We are being prepared to serve on a higher level of existence which follows us after death.

I fully realize not one word above will convince any atheist, I offer it for believers!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on October 28, 2007 at 01:21 pm

HG - I’ve yet to hear proof of moral absolutes without a moral lawgiver.

Heh. HG has never had to deal with my conscience. Forget “moral lawgiver” (that was my mother), it’s a moral cop.

What does “proof of moral absolutes” look like, anyway? We’re not going to see it in this lifetime. It’s all intangible belief, as my next example (and previous one) displays.

The point is without moral authority all morality is relative and there is no objective standard by which to judge what is or is not moral.

HG, have you ever talked with a socialist about how to apply the Bible’s morals? The “objective standard” you’re looking for doesn’t exist. It’s ALL “relative” based on personal views. This is humanity we’re talking about. People don’t agree.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 01:52 pm

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

1. Our Founding Father’s, in this our National Charter (above), separated themselves from British rule and thereafter created a government that was, according to John Adam’s and virtually all of our founders, only fit to govern a religious people.
2. These extraordinary men knew that these laws, these moral laws and those rights we believed are essential for liberty were/are wholly dependent upon the existence of a Creator, Natures God, if they are to prevail over the human heart, our personal conduct and to enable this nation to prosper.
3. Within each human being is a knowledge of right and wrong (moral code) that was not imprinted by a blind evolved class of animal being; but they were written there by Nature’s God, with the Divine right to accept or reject those laws. Even the atheist, despite his/her rejection of the fact, can have no code of right and wrong moral behavior outside that inner knowledge; and when they have attempted to establish a natural law outside of God, in every case, that society, empire, kingdom or tribe has fallen into depravity and ceased to exist. Just ask the ancient Roman’s!

Lastly, I wanted to make it clear I wholly reject HG’s premise that any morality can exist absent the Divine Writer having imprinted them upon the human heart. So, even if people reject the existence of God (atheists), if they display in their words and conduct any true morality whatsoever, it is not of their making, it does not exist as a natutal law within them.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on October 28, 2007 at 02:37 pm

People don’t agree.

Which is why God is such a good standard.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 28, 2007 at 06:01 pm

Which is why God is such a good standard.

Whose God? Which God? How do we follow and implement the God’s rules?

Again - have you ever talked to a socialist on applying God’s “good standard”?

WHAT standard? Everyone has a different one based upon personal interpretations.

Again - people don’t agree. That doesn’t change when you bring this “God” fella into the mix.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 06:18 pm

R108
Nice maxim. Is that how we are arguing our points now? Also, I didn’t know God was a standard? I know some forty-odd million OTHER standards, I can design software to spit them out by the second. So fucking what? Whats the good-making-ness about God? Do explain? Also, which denominations God are you talking about?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on October 28, 2007 at 06:20 pm

Neiman - Even the atheist, despite his/her rejection of the fact...

I like how belief is referred to as “fact”.

That’s been the main problem in this thread. People think that their personal beliefs are an “objective standard” and “the fact”.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 06:26 pm

Sparkie and Lik: Our Founding Fathers spoke about Nature’s God, the Creator of all things; not a denominational being, but the Intelligent Creator of the universe, and upon that simple belief our Declaration of Independence placed our national trust to insure our liberty, prosperity and our basic goodness as a free people. Our Founding Fathers relied upon the Ten Commandments and the Judeo-Christian faith as a basis for Law and with very few exceptions our Founding Fathers were Christian people trusting in God for our future; and because of that faith, these Christian men and women said that all Americans should be allowed to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience.

So, in America you get to choose to worship any god you like or you are free to reject the very idea that God exists at all. Why? Because the people of the Christian faith that founded this country knew that love for God could not and should not be forced. For God to force people to go to heaven against their wishes wouldn’t be heaven - it would be hell. Atheist author Jean-Paul Sarte noted that the gates of hell are locked from the inside by the free choice of men and women.

As soon as a lecturer finished, “The Believers asked him, “Where do you atheists get the moral principles you proclaim, but do not obey - such as ‘don’t steal, and don’t kill’?” Do you realize that those very principles came from the Bible against which you atheists fight. Our dating of time relates to the fact that Jesus existed, a fact for which there are many secular proofs; and either he was a fraud, a madman or God the Son. Because He is so kind and loving He will never force Himself on anyone, you get to freely choose what to do with Him.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on October 28, 2007 at 06:56 pm

Lik: Would you be very much impressed by my faith in God if I said, “Even the atheist, despite his/her rejection of this myth or possible truth ...?” I would not waste my time believing in Christ absent facts, solid evidence to support my beliefs. True faith can only be founded upon fact - not feelings, not intuition or emotions; nor does faith arise out of blind submission to some religious authority.

Nobelist Sir John Eccles pointed out that the recognition that minds are non-physical entities has caused the collapse of scientific materialism. Well, not the complete collapse perhaps, as most atheists will hold to their own religious faith in scientific materialism. Atheists demand that we are solely stimulus-response, wholly matter, mechanisms, but if that is true where in our experiences did we come up with the idea of there being a God at all, after all we could not have experienced Him, right? Go back to my post about “Man is only matter without a soul,” and respond to the questions posed therein, or about all life testifying of God’s existence, debunk them that the uneducated masses might be cleansed of the opiate of religion!

It is late, maybe tomorrow we can take this subject up again!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on October 28, 2007 at 07:11 pm
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HG, have you ever talked with a socialist about how to apply the Bible’s morals? The “objective standard” you’re looking for doesn’t exist. It’s ALL “relative” based on personal views. This is humanity we’re talking about. People don’t agree.

lik,

We may not be able to agree on which standard is the objective one, but acknowledging an objective standard exists, that absolute morality is reality, that is a start… the start of our constitution in fact.  Without a moral standard, i.e., God, and subsequent moral responsibilities to that standard of morality, there are no unalienable rights.

My point is not that we must agree on which moral standard is the true one, but simply that a moral standard exists.  This is the foundation of our constitutional rights.  We may disagree as to which God is the true God, that freedom is not threatened by the acknowledging of moral authority.  Rather religious freedom is established by the reality of a moral authority and each individual subsequent responsibility to said authority.  Hence, freedom of religion.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 07:16 pm

We may not be able to agree on which standard is the objective one,

There is a standard called the ten commandments.  Additionally, there are the 2 directives from God to love Him and to love ones neighbor (everybody else) as oneself.  Of course, whether people follow that standard or have a different standard is another question but that doesn’t prove that a objective standard doesn’t exist.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on October 28, 2007 at 07:27 pm

Also, which denominations God are you talking about?

Unlike you, Sparkie, I don’t confuse God with religion.
Your confusion is of your own making, and it’s certainly not my problem.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 28, 2007 at 07:34 pm

That doesn’t change when you bring this
“God” fella into the mix.

God is not “a fella”.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 28, 2007 at 07:35 pm
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Heh. HG has never had to deal with my conscience.

The conscience is not an objective standard.  Hence, my objection to serving the moral conscience of some human beings.  Any attempt to exalt the moral conscience of some over others is tyrrany in my opinion.  Again, a moral authority equally applied to all is the only equitable standard.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 07:40 pm

Neiman - Lik: Would you be very much impressed by my faith in God if I said, “Even the atheist, despite his/her rejection of this myth or possible truth ...?”

That’s the language of an agnostic! There is no “or” with believers, both atheist and theist. Possibilities only exist with the agnostic.

HG - Without a moral standard, i.e., God, and subsequent moral responsibilities to that standard of morality, there are no unalienable rights.

Understood. It’s why, even as an agnostic, I defend and wish to protect the concept of God in our founding documents. Without it, knowing humans, inalienable rights will be replaced by rights that flow from government. The danger in that thinking is that anything government gives, government can take away.

The conscience is not an objective standard.

Nobody said that it was. I had responded to this, “I’ve yet to hear proof of moral absolutes without a moral lawgiver.” The “proof” of moral absolutes without a moral lawgiver can only be viewed by me. It is my conscience. You could say that the conscience itself is the moral lawgiver, but it was understood that you meant an outside authority.

It was tongue in cheek anyways HG. No need to analysis it.

docdave - Additionally, there are the 2 directives from God to love Him and to love ones neighbor (everybody else) as oneself.

Not really good advice for people who are self destructive. I don’t want some people loving me like they love themselves. One could end up hurt or killed.

robert108 - Unlike you, Sparkie, I don’t confuse God with religion.

That’s not what he was doing. Knowing that religions often have different gods, he was simply asking which one.

God is not “a fella”.

Anal.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 08:06 pm
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Understood. It’s why, even as an agnostic, I defend and wish to protect the concept of God in our founding documents. Without it, knowing humans, inalienable rights will be replaced by rights that flow from government. The danger in that thinking is that anything government gives, government can take away.

Bingo!

I also commend your pragmatic approach.  Basically you seem to say that the only way to protect unalienable rights is to admit moral authority exists.  This admission is essential to our form of government and its survival according to our nation’s founders.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 08:21 pm

Basically you seem to say that the only way to protect unalienable rights is to admit moral authority exists.

To help protect. Government will still trample on inalienable rights; it’s only a bit harder to do when they admit that there are certain rights that do not flow from them, but rather something bigger. Whether that something bigger is God doesn’t matter in this context, but rather it is the legal concept that is important.

On a related side note, pay attention to the language of the communist/fascist/socialist/dictator. They will outright say that our rights flow from government. Even when told that government is there to protect, not give, they will insist. It is easy for them to think that way because they already believe in entitlements that flow from one individual to another.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 08:38 pm
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If the atheists are right… which means there is/are no God(s)...... it brings us (as human beings) up at least one notch in the “most important being(s) in the universe” ladder and, excluding alien lifeforms, all the way to the top of it.... which means that WE are in charge of our own morals.... now, some of you seem to think that atheists all believe that there are no consequences for the way that we live our lives just because there is no such thing as God (or whatever your personal flavour of Godliness is).... but the way i see it.... just because there aren’t beings with greater power than mine doesn’t mean that i am “MATTER ONLY”..... can an afterlife with moral consequences not EXIST just because WE’RE the only ones there? would that be so bad? paying for/ being repaid for what you did in this life in the NEXT according to what other HUMANS think?.... for some, i’m sure it would be....... and getting back to the original question..... (first, i just want to point out that atheists just BEING right wouldn’t change anything.... they very well could be at this very moment...) Now, if atheists PROVED they were right to everyone on the planet, that no god exists.... well then we’d be getting somewhere.... i think we would just have laws, social values, and morals that were more FLEXIBLE because they would be based on what WE think instead of being based on the “Set in Stone” moral code of a “higher being” that nobody (nobody i know at least) has ever actually SEEN...... i believe we, as a society, would be more accepting and open-minded about other people’s views because they would be JUST as good as anyone elses

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 08:50 pm
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Oh and about the “God is not “a fella”” comment..... you can’t prove that.... hehe, just thought i’d add a little agnosticism to your life

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 09:04 pm
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which means that WE are in charge of our own morals....

i think we would just have laws, social values, and morals that were more FLEXIBLE because they would be based on what WE think

Precisely the problem.  If human beings are the final moral authority, there is no appeal, there is no unalienable rights, there is only the conscience of some for all to obey.  This is an absurd and unacceptable proposal.  I have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to obey and serve the conscience of another human being for no other reason than that person is in the majority.  This is inequality.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 09:19 pm

TheMattad0r - i believe we, as a society, would be more accepting and open-minded about other people’s views because they would be JUST as good as anyone elses

Why would you assume that the differing views would be “JUST as good as anyone elses”?

I don’t see the open-mindedness among many of the proclaimed atheists. They’re the same as believers. They are believers.

likwidshoe on October 28, 2007 at 09:26 pm
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I have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to obey and serve the conscience of another human being for no other reason than that person is in the majority.  This is inequality.

Actually you do.... the current moral majority (as there is currently no absolute proof of any god) makes it EVERYONE’S obligation to follow the rules of a centuries-old book written by men who SAY that “god said so”

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 09:31 pm
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Why would you assume that the differing views would be “JUST as good as anyone elses”?

All I meant was that there would be no “higher power” it would be the voice of one man versus the voice of another man… a level playing field

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 09:37 pm
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Wrong Matt. Under our current form of governemnt I am obligated by my unalienable rights to obey moral absolutes which are equally applied to all. Since all posess these unalienable rights my behavior must not infringe upon the unalienable rights of others.  From here flow all individual rights to life, liberty and property and the laws which restict each individuals behavior in order to secure those rights.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 09:46 pm
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a level playing field

level?  forcing one to obey another’s moral conscience is level?  you gotta be a liberal.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 09:48 pm
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(as there is currently no absolute proof of any god)

that is a matter of perspective.  Viewed through the philosophical prism of materialism, there is only matter.

Viewed throught the prism of natural philosophy, there is self-evident truths, ie, a Creator.

It just so happens our entire form of government rests upon the reality of the latter.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 09:54 pm
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I just don’t see where you’re drawing the line between your “moral absolutes” and morals that society as a WHOLE agrees upon.... you think just because somebody or some book said that “GOD” said that some big chunk of morals are ABSOLUTE, it must be true? Whereas, if a group decides what it OWN moral “absolutes” (which is a stupid word to use, considering that no group of people has had the same moral values throughout all time and eternity.... well, except maybe the hippies), you consider it serving the conscience of someone else.....

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 10:04 pm
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that is a matter of perspective.  Viewed through the philosophical prism of materialism, there is only matter.

Viewed throught the prism of natural philosophy, there is self-evident truths, ie, a Creator.

EVERYTHING is a matter of perspective.... but when you’re arguing that god is definitely real and definitely not real in the same post your point becomes a little blurred.... what are you trying to say here?

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 10:16 pm

EVERYTHING is a matter of perspective....

Only in your morally relativistic world.  Your perspective leads to ignorance.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 28, 2007 at 10:35 pm
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you think just because somebody or some book said that “GOD” said that some big chunk of morals are ABSOLUTE, it must be true?

I addressed this already.  You obviously missed it.  It has nothing to do with some book.  It has to do with self-evident truths that establish moral absolutes. 

Where were you during the last few posts?

HG on October 28, 2007 at 10:55 pm
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Only in your morally relativistic world.

My morally relativistic world is called Earth… i live in a country where the hottest debate topic is whether or not we should be shooting people on the other side of the globe.... some people think shooting people is wrong ALWAYS… some people join the military because they WANT to go shoot people(and no, i’m not talking out of my ass here… i’ve met three people who said they joined the military almost solely to shoot people. though, only one of them actually HAD) ....... my point is MORALS ARE RELATIVE..... no matter what way you slice it......... there are people who think exactly the OPPOSITE of your FAVORITE “Moral Absolutes”...... so..... absolute my ass.......

Your perspective leads to ignorance.

The only time a perspective leads to ignorance is when one doesn’t take the time to view the OTHER perspectives in the SAME LIGHT as their own

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 10:58 pm
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It has to do with self-evident truths that establish moral absolutes.

SELF-evident....... as in...... not revealed by a GOD........... atheists can have “self-evident” truths just as easily as theists.......
TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:02 pm
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what are you trying to say here?

What I already said:

“It just so happens our entire form of government rests upon the reality of the latter.”

Absolute morality is reality in these United states of America.  For now, the vast majority agree.  Since you believe all morality to be relative, than you are stuck obey the moral conscience of the majority (from your perspective).  From the perspective of the majority, all are equally required to behave in accordance with the moral absolutes our laws acknowledge and enforce.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:04 pm
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SELF-evident....... as in...... not revealed by a GOD........... atheists can have “self-evident” truths just as easily as theists.......

Let’s here your self-evident truths that ascribe to us all unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness apart from moral absolutes and the subsequent moral responsibility.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:08 pm
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and i’m sure my “self-evident” truths are a little different from yours along with everybody else’s on the planet.... but if we voted on laws (the same way we do now) we would come up with what SOCIETY as a whole believes are self-evident truths and our moral values would stem from those instead of a pre-cut list of values handed down through generations (no doubt distorted a few times… at least in concept)

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:09 pm
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“It just so happens our entire form of government rests upon the reality of the latter.”

Absolute morality is reality in these United states of America.  For now, the vast majority agree.  Since you believe all morality to be relative, than you are stuck obey the moral conscience of the majority (from your perspective).  From the perspective of the majority, all are equally required to behave in accordance with the moral absolutes our laws acknowledge and enforce.

but our CURRENT situation isn’t the subject of our debate now, is it?..... if the athesists were right and everybody knew it, a “Creator” wouldn’t necessarily be one of our self-evident truths anymore.... more than likely, it WOULDN’T be…

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:17 pm
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we would come up with what SOCIETY as a whole believes are self-evident truths and our moral values would stem from those

Wrong.  We would come up with what the a plurality of voters would say is self-evident and the rest, very, very likely the majority, would be subject to the conscience of some.  Hence, exalting the conscience of the plurality to the position of morally absolute for all intents and purposes.  This is inequality and tyrranical no matter how you slice it.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:18 pm
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but our CURRENT situation isn’t the subject of our debate now, is it?.....

Sure… as it pertains to the inability of atheistic moral relativism to maintain our current form of government.  The consequences and application of moral relativism need to be considered before anyone should accept it as fact.  Once it is seen to be wholly inadequate and impractical, it will be harder to accept.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:25 pm
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Let’s here your self-evident truths that ascribe to us all unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…

not MINE..... everyone’s..... or rather.... an average of everyone’s..... decided by everyone.... for everyone.... sound reasonable? and there’s really no need for them to be “...apart from moral absolutes and the subsequent moral responsibility.” like i said… moral absolutes aren’t solely for the theist.... and neither is moral responsibilty..... oh and by the way..... you said that i “gotta be a liberal”..... I’m a conservative..... i believe in as little government as possible...... always.
TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:29 pm
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Wrong.  We would come up with what the a plurality of voters would say is self-evident and the rest, very, very likely the majority, would be subject to the conscience of some

kinda like we do right now?
TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:33 pm
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sound reasonable?

No. sounds tyranical.  Have you been listening?

moral absolutes aren’t solely for the theist

Really?  That’s a new one.  Tell me from whence cometh these moral absolutes?  You said earlier: 

my point is MORALS ARE RELATIVE..... no matter what way you slice it......... there are people who think exactly the OPPOSITE of your FAVORITE “Moral Absolutes”...... so..... absolute my ass.......

Please reconcile.

I’m a conservative..... i believe in as little government as possible

Then follow lik’s example and for the sake of limited government admit that morality must be absolute if only in theory.  Although it has already been proven historically in practice.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:38 pm
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kinda like we do right now?

Boy, you’re a hard nut to crack.  Remember, self-evident truths produce unalienable rights equally posessed by all and secured by government for all.  You’re making this hard for yourself.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:41 pm
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kinda like we do right now?

maybe this will help:  we cannot vote something into law that violates the constitutional unalienable rights of each individual.  Hence, occasionally laws are overturned on the ground that they are unconstitutional, ie, they violate the rights guaranteed by our constitution.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:46 pm
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Sure… as it pertains to the inability of atheistic moral relativism to maintain our current form of government.

who said anything about maintaining our current form of government? 

The consequences and application of moral relativism need to be considered before anyone should accept it as fact.

MORALITY IS RELATIVE...... i can prove it right now.... my morals are different RELATIVE to your morals.... RELATIVITY! application and consequences don’t change facts..... and those consequences are being seen everyday as more and more people realize that MORALITY IS RELATIVE.... morality is not a concrete, exact list that matches all around the world...... but hey...... i’ve had a great time tonight and i’m glad i found this site… but alas… i need sleep and i’ll probably never come back to this site again because that’s just the way i internet...... it’s been good man… oh, and in case you didn’t know by now.... i’m an agnostic.... so i had to “choose a side”, if you will.... coming into this debate.... whereas, you (if i’m not mistaken) believe in at least one non-human super-being..... so you had your own side

TheMattad0r on October 28, 2007 at 11:49 pm

i’ve met three people who said they joined the military almost solely to shoot people.

Three people?  Well, it must be true, then. /sarcasm


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 28, 2007 at 11:56 pm
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MORALITY IS RELATIVE...... i can prove it right now.... my morals are different RELATIVE to your morals.... RELATIVITY!

I never said relative morality did not exist.  I said moral absolutes exist.  The presence of relativism does not rule out the existence of moral absolutes.  It is those who think like yourself who say all morals are relative and therefore no moral absolutes exist.  The opposite is not true.

Hey, I enjoyed the exercise.  Come back soon.

HG on October 28, 2007 at 11:56 pm
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Tell me from whence cometh these moral absolutes?

whence cometh.... don’t use your crazy bible-talk on me : P......
But, as i said before, “we would come up with what SOCIETY as a whole believes are self-evident truths and our moral values would stem from those” and moral “absolutes” would be formed in the same way they were formed in our constitution today… you know like...... another one.... because i don’t think the constitution as it stands now would stand up so well in a society where atheists are right.... do you?..... And one more question before i go: What makes your “GOD“‘s moral “absolutes” any better than moral absolutes decided on by a majority?
TheMattad0r on October 29, 2007 at 12:04 am
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And one more question before i go: What makes your “GOD“‘s moral “absolutes” any better than moral absolutes decided on by a majority?

The Creator’s morality is the standard, hence moral absolutes.  These can be applied to all without partiality to any one or group’s relative morality.

I have answered the question about the plurality of voters, most likely the minority, and the problem with obeying the moral conscience of some.  Also, lik did well to point out the inevitable consequence of voter moral authority… that is our rights now come from government instead of our Creator.  This is a historically dangerous and destructive path for any society.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:12 am
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Hey, I enjoyed the exercise.

you think you’re better than me don’t you? (picture i just gave you one of those looks that says: “Oh, you SO are not.” ...... I hope someday after i die.... and you die… that we’ll meet..... then we’ll see about moral absolutes...... maybe we’ll know what we’re talking about then.....

TheMattad0r on October 29, 2007 at 12:13 am
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because i don’t think the constitution as it stands now would stand up so well in a society where atheists are right.... do you?.....

No, I don’t.  And thank you for your honesty.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:15 am

The Creator’s morality is the standard, hence moral absolutes.

The truth is the truth, even if no one knows it.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

robert108 on October 29, 2007 at 12:16 am
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I hope someday after i die.... and you die… that we’ll meet.....

Mattador, I sincerely hope we do. 

I’m certain of my eternity. I hope ours is the same.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:18 am
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you think you’re better than me don’t you?

Mattador, I think all men are created equal, so I cannot be better than you.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:20 am
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Well said R108.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:21 am
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The Creator’s morality is the standard, hence moral absolutes.  These can be applied to all without partiality to any one or group’s relative morality.

In the scenario your original question asked, the atheists were right.... meaning no “creator” to get this magical list of absolutes from...... which leaves us with no moral absolutes (since, according to you, those only come from “The Creator") In today’s world, if there was anything proven to me that showed ACTUAL MORAL ABSOLUTES.... instead of human-authored ones like the ones BOTH of us have been talking about (you probably don’t like to admit it, but a HUMAN PERSON wrote the commandments and all other such “Godly” moral absolutes) I would be MORE THAN GLAD to accept every law and ordinance passed because of them, But alas, “The Creator” has never spoken a word to anyone alive...... so i guess there are NO MORAL ABSOLUTES AT ALL..... at least not that anyone on earth has any way of knowing about FOR SURE.......... and on that note...... i rest

TheMattad0r on October 29, 2007 at 12:28 am
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(you probably don’t like to admit it, but a HUMAN PERSON wrote the commandments and all other such “Godly” moral absolutes)

Uh, once again, the moral absolutes recognized in our founding documents are derived from natural revelation.  That is, those things that are evident in nature.  Observation and reason afford us unalienable rights.

HG on October 29, 2007 at 12:33 am
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so i was wrong… i’m back..............

Uh, once again, the moral absolutes recognized in our founding documents are derived from natural revelation.  That is, those things that are evident in nature.  Observation and reason afford us unalienable rights.

But we’re NOT TALKING about NOW! We’re talking about WHAT IF the atheists were right..... if the atheists were right, the declaration of independence would be a scrap of hemp paper with some pious fools’ opinions about the way the world works… “Nature’s God” would not exist.... our unalienable rights wouldn’t be “endowed” upon us… they would be taken, created, agreed upon, written down.... an THEN there would be CERTAIN absolutes.... whether or not these absolutes would be the “real” moral absolutes of the universe… which you insist exist.... and which i think are mankind’s way of making himself feel like a bigger part of the universe.... all of our ethics, morals, laws, etc. since the dawn of man have been MADE UP by man himself..... there has never been any feedback from the universe as a whole giving us any sort of “yup, you guys are on the right track”..... if your Universal morals ever did exist, there would be no way for us to know that we got them right besides “natural revelation” which basically means.... it “feels” right, so it probably is....

TheMattad0r on October 29, 2007 at 09:20 am
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I’m certain of my eternity.

Wow.... A braver claim was never stated.

TheMattad0r on October 29, 2007 at 09:27 am

That is, those things that are evident in nature.

God created nature, along with us and everything else.  There is no separation here, except the one you are trying to make.


"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every