Say Anything Blog

The tribal members of the Meskwaki Nation should be applauded for their ability to stick with what they value without looking at only profits and dollar signs.

If that were true, there wouldn’t be any casinos either.

Gambling is a tax on the stupid. It’s a destructive behavior that really doesn’t create any wealth. It’s just a transfer of wealth. Casinos are economic black holes.

That’s not to say that casinos should be made illegal in any way. Freedom is a higher ideal that sometimes brings with it ugly and unintended consequences. Just don’t kid yourself - casinos don’t bring economies up. The best you could hope for is for an agreement with the casino operator in profit sharing.

casinos don’t bring economies up.

Quite frankly, lik, I don’t see much separation between casinos and other entertainments like amusement parks, strip joints, movies, etc.  Mnny consider gambling as entertainment not just the stupid as you wrote.  Years back I would regularly get together with my friends for a friendly poker night and I don’t consider myself stupid.  I has an kind aunt who enjoyed putting a few buckd in nickel slots who I would not consider stupid.  I also know of many organizations thst use casino like entertainments to raise money for their organization. 

Of course, whether or not, casinos bring in money for Indian tribes is another question altogether.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

I’m with docdave on this one.  I certainly don’t see any reason to criticize the reservations for coming up with a means of earning an income for their nation.

The big question is how is the money used once it gets to the community.  It should be used to improve infrastructure:  roads, schools, improved law-enforcement training, etc.

I know little about how the reservations are administrated, obviously only hearing the bad, because that’s how our MSM defines “news”.

docdave said, Quite frankly, lik, I don’t see much separation between casinos and other entertainments like amusement parks, strip joints, movies, etc.

I guess all entertainment can be said to produce nothing but the happiness of the customer. What makes casinos so unique is that they normally take care of everything. You want a hotel? You stay in the casino. You want to eat? You stay in the casino. You want other forms of entertainment? You stay in the casino. There aren’t too many auxiliary industries that prop up to support the casino industry. It’s pretty self containing.

And (I love this part) it’s probably THE industry with the highest margins/rate of return per investment dollar. The game is stacked in favor of the casino and people can’t seem to throw money at it fast enough. Make no mistake, the casinos are selling sin. The sin they’re selling is gluttony. While that may not be true for you or your kind aunt, it’s true for almost everybody else in there. It’s just like smoking cigarettes in a way. Some can have one or two every now and then maybe when they drink. The rest of us? We inhale them all day every day. There’s very little middle ground for most people.

So while I support casinos as an issue of freedom, I don’t kid myself about the ratio of good/harm they bring to a community.

Mnny consider gambling as entertainment not just the stupid as you wrote.

True that and the majority of the population fits into this category. I dare say that the majority of the casino population is entirely different. Just take a trip and people watch at one if you don’t agree. Look around at everybody’s faces. Most of them aren’t having too much fun. It’s an addiction for them.

Look around at everybody’s faces. Most of them aren’t having too much fun.

I agree. All of the casino advertising shows happy, smiling, laughing people. Tha actual casinos are filled mostly with folks who can charitably be described as grim.

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Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

casinos are filled mostly with folks who can charitably be described as grim.

Not sure that is true unless grim is synonym for intent.  Whatever it is, I don’t see it to be much different from folks hanging out in a bar or strip joint.  As a supreme court justice once said ‘being free means being free to make bad decisions as well good ones’.  Really I couldn’t care less how people spend their money or lead their lives as long as it does interfere with mine.

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You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Not sure that is true unless grim is synonym for intent.

Grim faces and grim intent. Many of them are gambling paychecks they really can’t afford to lose. I’d wager (hah!) that this is a bigger problem in local casinos and less of a problem for cities like Las Vegas that rely on long distance travelers for the bulk of their earnings.

Whatever it is, I don’t see it to be much different from folks hanging out in a bar or strip joint.

That’s sort of my point. These kinds of business are generally not good for the communities that host them nor for the people who frequent them. In the end, people will seek an outlet for these industries whether they are legal or not, so it’s best that they stay legal.

Notice that every industry that sells gluttony (drug dealing/bartending, gambling, the sex industry) brings with it a heavy measure of misery and pain.

docdave: I’ll stick with grim. Aside from the bus loads of seniors who are just happy to be anywhere, I see too many people who have spent the grocery and rent money trying to hit the big score, knowing that if their luck doesn’t change, they might not have bus fare home.

I don’t know about Vegas, but in Reno they have pawn shops with car lots for the automobiles people pawn there.
When you stare with determination at that slot machine or hand of cards knowing you’ve hocked your transportation into town, I’d call that grim!

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Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Gambling is a tax on the stupid. It’s a destructive behavior that really doesn’t create any wealth.

It depends on the type of “gambling” you’re talking about. For example, poker is a game of skill, and people who are talented at it will make money. Blackjack is the same way. The fact that you apparently suck at card games doesn’t mean that everyone does.

Slot machines, bingo, and lotteries, of course, are taxes on the stupid.

The fact that you apparently suck at card games doesn’t mean that everyone does.

I don’t gamble or play cards beyond the occasional euchre game.

Any more ASSumptions you’d like to make, or are you done now?

Any more ASSumptions you’d like to make, or are you done now?

No, just reiterate my first one: You suck at cards. (Either that, or you don’t like money.)

I’m with Likwidshoe on this one, but for a slightly different reason.  When the major economic enterprise in an area is a casino, the lesson learned by the residents is that the way to wealth is not through work, but through gambling.  It turns out, according to the Minnesota Taxpayers’ League, that revenues from lotteries are more than offset by the costs of dealing with the pathologies of gambling--crime, bankruptcy, divorce, and so on.  I would have to assume that casinos are no different, except for the fact that tax revenues to offset these costs are far lower for casinos than for lotteries.

Creasy is right to suggest that it is probably a good idea to keep liquor off reservations with horrendous alcoholism problems.  However, I think that misses a bigger issue, which is that (per Rob’s earlier column) one of the big factors driving alcoholism is the fact that too many don’t need to work for a living.  “Idle hands are the Devil’s workshop,” you know.

No, just reiterate my first one: You suck at cards.

Well,...I give you that. The reality is that I don’t know how to play most games and I have no strategy with other games that I do know (such as poker and blackjack). I just don’t have the interest. I end up groaning when I’m out somewhere and the cards come out. Unless it is euchre…

(Either that, or you don’t like money.)

I don’t gamble because I realize that it is a fool’s errand. Unless one really knows the ins and the outs of a precious few card games, then it’s a sucker’s bet.

Another circle jerk, I see.

Carrick, I think each tribe handles its casino money differently.  I’ve heard of some tribes (Wisconsin area?) where the casino(s) make so much money that no one in the tribe actually has to work.  They’re all set for life.

Of course, this might be a rumor.

As for North Dakota’s casinos, either they’re not making much money or the money isn’t finding its way to the people because conditions on most of them, as I’ve already pointed out, are deplorable.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The tribal members of the Meskwaki Nation should be applauded for their ability to stick with what they value without looking at only profits and dollar signs.

If that were true, there wouldn’t be any casinos either.

I was referring to the fact that the article points out that the casino would attract and make more money if it allowed alcohol sales in the casino.

The tribal members shot down the voting measure by not selling their ideals about alcohol sales.

Rob-

It is mainly up to each reservation and their tribal councils on how the money is allocated.  Some choose to give it to their members others, like Carrick has mentioned, put the money into education, road departments, and other programs designed to improve life on the reservation.

Also, there are many rumors floating around about how what each tribe does with their money and how much money their casino brings in.

Well, I can’t speak to how much money the Indian casinos here in ND bring in, but it certainly doesn’t seem like much of that money is finding its way to the reservation community at large.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I think its wonderful that the Meskwaki Nation voted to not sell alcohol in their casino.  If this tribe were only interested in making money, they would have not made the decision they did.

Those who go to casinos do so because it is entertainment for them.  People have the right to choose how they spend their money.  What makes anyone think that they have the right to tell people where to spend their money.  If people have a gambling addiction, then they have to make changes.  Why should the casinos cease to exist because someone doesn’t know control? 

The money generated from casinos in ND can not even begin to compare with the money generated from casinos in MN.  This is solely based on population.

It seems to me that some people have some control issues.  Either that or they have Indian issues.  It has been said that Indians need to be independent and support themselves.  Casinos have the capability of doing both of these.  Unfortunately for the tribes in ND, there is not the population to make the large profits.

What makes anyone think that they have the right to tell people where to spend their money.

A welfare supporter is saying this?

Wow! The irony. It’s almost like you get it, but haven’t quite made the connection.

It seems to me that some people have some control issues.  Either that or they have Indian issues.

Who opposes the casinos?

Likwidshoe-

To steal a term from Rob: Your straw man tactics grow tiresome.  Have you nothing better to do than to pick apart the things Rae is saying?  The only term I am stealing from Rob is straw man.  I don’t want fifty comments saying “Rob never said that.”

Rob, Whistler and others have extended an invitation for Native Americans to present articles and show positive sides of reservation life.  That’s what I am trying to do here.

I have posted two articles trying to create constructive debates. In each instance Rae has made comments.  However, you follow up her comments by mischaracterizing what she has said and twisting words around. 

You make statements that have nothing to do with the subject of the articles.

Rob, Whistler, Sparky, 2hotel9 and others have held up their end of the bargain by actually debating the issues I present. Will you?

To steal a term from Rob: Your straw man tactics grow tiresome.

Alright - you say straw man, then tell me where the straw man are.

Have you nothing better to do than to pick apart the things Rae is saying?

This is blogging. Do you have nothing better to do than write this article? See how stupid that sounds?

I don’t want fifty comments saying “Rob never said that.”

Wha? You only hear such things when they’re not said.

In each instance Rae has made comments.  However, you follow up her comments by mischaracterizing what she has said and twisting words around.

Where? Point it out.

You make statements that have nothing to do with the subject of the articles.

Rob, Whistler, Sparky, 2hotel9 and others have held up their end of the bargain by actually debating the issues I present. Will you?

Bargain? Listen, we discuss the articles and we also discuss/debate the comments here. If you don’t like that, then perhaps you should go somewhere else.

Don’t try to lecture me.

Listen, we discuss the articles and we also discuss/debate the comments here. If you don’t like that, then perhaps you should go somewhere else.

Well, do some actual debating then.

In each instance Rae has made comments.  However, you follow up her comments by mischaracterizing what she has said and twisting words around.

Where? Point it out.

How about my other artcle about Indian Dads?  You had a whole mess of ramblings on that one. The only thing relevant to the article was this short comment:
It sounds like a good program with laudable goals.

Rae posted: Who gives a crap where the money comes from as long as it is helping.

likwidshoe chimes in on the next posting: What if it is stolen?

Nothing to do with the actual article, but twisting things around and trying to instigate an argument. You might say a debate, but it was trying to start an argument

Then you had this snappy little pearl of wisdom:

My response actually had nothing to do with where or how the Fatherhood is Sacred program gets their funding.  As I have already explained, I was just responding to something that RaeMarie70 had said. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pay close attention to your own words buddy: My response actually had nothing to do with where or how the Fatherhood is Sacred program gets their funding.

This is blogging. Do you have nothing better to do than write this article? See how stupid that sounds?

You are comparing apples to oranges.  It is like I am trying to play chess with you and you only know how to play checkers.

Oh yeah, and the bargain I was referring to was the instance Whistler told me to get a readers blog and present things from a Native American viewpoint.  I told him I was calling his bluff and hoped everyone would take this seriously and debate the issues I present.

Respond to this if you want to, but I will only be interested in actually debating the issue in the article.

Arguing with you is like the saying goes: Don’t ever wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

I am dirty enough, I am through with you unless you have some comments about the Meskwaki Nation and their tribal members not passing the measure to sell alcohol in their casino.

Don’t try to lecture me.

Lecture you? I’m just telling you how it works around here.

Well, do some actual debating then.

I am. Pay attention.

How about my other artcle about Indian Dads?  You had a whole mess of ramblings on that one.

That’s pretty vague.

Nothing to do with the actual article, but twisting things around and trying to instigate an argument.

Where was the twisting? You don’t answer that part.

Pay close attention to your own words buddy: My response actually had nothing to do with where or how the Fatherhood is Sacred program gets their funding.

Pay close attention to these words buddy: my response was in response to RaeMarie70’s.

You are comparing apples to oranges.  It is like I am trying to play chess with you and you only know how to play checkers.

Please explain.

Arguing with you is like the saying goes: Don’t ever wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

Bah. Another useless insult.

I am dirty enough, I am through with you unless you have some comments about the Meskwaki Nation and their tribal members not passing the measure to sell alcohol in their casino.

I guess you missed that discussion above.

Oh well.

A welfare supporter is saying this?

I support the causes that help people to help themselves.  Unfortunately, some people take advantage of it.  I have no control over it.  So unlike you, I try not to obsess over it.

t seems to me that some people have some control issues.  Either that or they have Indian issues.

Who opposes the casinos?

From the comments, I would have to say you.

Likwidshoe, you stated:

I guess you missed that discussion above.

Actually I caught your comments.  Some of them have to do with casinos in general, but nothing specific about the tribal members of the Meskwaki Nation defeating the measure to allow alcohol sales in their casino. 

The article points out that the casino would have been more profitable if they allowed the sale of alcohol.  However, the members of the Meskwaki Nation believe that it would to more harm than good.

You make points about casinos in general:

Gambling is a tax on the stupid. It’s a destructive behavior that really doesn’t create any wealth. It’s just a transfer of wealth. Casinos are economic black holes.

Make no mistake, the casinos are selling sin. The sin they’re selling is gluttony.

None of your comments are about the issue at hand.

This is my point, let’s debate here.  Do you have any comments about the article? If not fine, if you do let’s hear them.

likwidshoe, I have been meaning to ask you: Where is your blog?  I would be quite interested in seeing some of the issues that you present.  Just curious.

RaeMarie70 said, So unlike you, I try not to obsess over it.

I don’t obsess over welfare RaeMarie. Talking about something doesn’t equate to obsession.

From the comments, I would have to say you.

Partially true. Or half true. I don’t know. I’m quite honestly conflicted. Personally, I oppose businesses such as casinos and strip clubs because they bring more harm than benefit. At the same time, I believe that they should remain legal to open and operate. In the end, people should be free to legally partake in such business.

Creasy - likwidshoe, I have been meaning to ask you: Where is your blog?  I would be quite interested in seeing some of the issues that you present.  Just curious.

It’s the front page. I used to have quite a collection of posts that I could point you to, then in a blog software switch, the authorship switched over to Rob’s name. We can’t figure out how to switch it back. The software won’t let us.

Occasionally I’ll write and put one on the front page and sometimes I put one into the reader section. Some of the issues I have presented before deal with the welfare state and it’s victims (no surprise there) and the education system and it’s biases.

I would be interested in reading what you have to say about an issue that you present.

Let me know of some of the articles you have presented.

I don’t obsess over welfare RaeMarie. Talking about something doesn’t equate to obsession.

My mistake, but it seems that way based on the number of times it is referenced on other threads.

My mistake, but it seems that way based on the number of times it is referenced on other threads.

There are thousands upon thousands of threads. How many have you read?

We discuss all sorts of things here RaeMarie, generally that are politically and governmentally related. If you think that is obsession, then maybe you’re in the wrong place.

I am talking about the threads that I am concerned with.  I don’t really care about the rest of your opinionated crap.

Thanks for pointing out that I might be in the wrong place.  Rest assured, I am not.

I am talking about the threads that I am concerned with.  I don’t really care about the rest of your opinionated crap.

Then don’t act as if you know.

Simple as that.

Thanks for the advice.  I will take it under consideration.

Creasy, you had asked for some of the articles I have presented. Quite honestly, I don’t know how to find them without some boring digging. Here’s one I had forgotten about. I’ve only posted a few small bullshit things to my reader blog. Everything else is ironically hidden in the front page archives.

As a sidenote, notice the adversarial relationship that Sparkie and some of the rest of us have there. He was kind of new to the blog then. Not that the adversarial relationship has gone away (it keeps both of us on our toes, he keeps me honest and I try to keep him honest), but things are a bit more cordial between us now. Some of the new Indians commenting here lately have put Sparkie into the “he’s with them; he’s a rightie” camp without even realizing. I don’t know...it’s just something I thought of when many of you came here. You never know...we may even become allies on quite a few things!