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Friday, June 20, 2008

Tom Tuttle from Tacoma and Election 2008

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CounterPunch Diary
“Hero" John McCain as Phony and Collaborator: What Really Happened When He Was a POW?

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Sen. McCain stunned onlookers at the hearing when he moved forward to the witness table and warmly embraced Bui Tin as if he was a long, lost brother.

“Was that hug for Bui Tin, a Vietnamese official responsible for the torture of some American prisoners of war, a message ‘please don’t give them my records?’” one activist questioned at the time.

In any case, many of McCain’s fellow Vietnam War POWs were aghast, not to mention former POWs of World War II and Korea, who could, only in some instances after decades, forgive but never forget the inhumanity of their captors--certainly not to the point of embracing them.

By ALEXANDER COCKBURN

John McCain’s been getting kid-glove treatment from the press for years, ever since he wriggled free of the Keating scandal and his profitable association – another collaboration, you might say—with the nation’s top bank swindler in the 1980s. But nothing equals the astounding tact with which his claque on the press bus avoids the topic of McCain’s collaborating with his Vietnamese captors after he’d been shot down.

How McCain behaved when he was a prisoner is key. McCain is probably the most unstable man ever to have got this close to the White House. He’s one election away from it. Republican senator Thad Cochrane has openly said he trembles at the thought of an unstable McCain in the Oval Office with his finger on the nuclear trigger.

What if a private memory of years of collaboration in his prison camp gnaws at McCain, and bursts out in his paroxysms of uncontrollable fury, his rantings about “gooks” and his terrifying commitment to a hundred years of war in Iraq. What if “the hero” knows he’s a phony?
Doug Valentine has written the definitive history of the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. He knows about the POW experience. His dad, an Army man, was captured by the Japanese and sent to a POW camp in the Philippines for forced labor. Many of his mates died. Doug wrote a marvelous book about it, The Hotel Tacloban.

Now Valentine has picked up the unexploded bomb lying on McCain’s campaign trail this year. As he points out, he’s not the first. Rumors and charges have long swirled around McCain’s conduct as a prisoner. Fellow prisoners have given the lie to McCain’s claims. But Valentine has assembled the dossier. It’s devastating. We’re running it in our current CounterPunch newsletter and we strongly urge you to subscribe.

Some excerpts from Valentine’s indictment.

“War is one thing, collaborating with the enemy is another; it is a legitimate campaign issue that strikes at the heart of McCain’s character. . .or lack thereof. In occupied countries like Iraq, or France in World War II, collaboration to that extent spells an automatic death sentence.. . .The question is: What kind of collaborator was John McCain, the admitted war criminal who will hate the Vietnamese for the rest of his life?

“Put it another way: how psychologically twisted is McCain? And what actually happened to him in his POW camp that twisted him? Was it abuse, as he claims, or was it the fact that he collaborated and has to cover up? Covering-up can take a lot of energy. The truth is lurking there in his subconscious, waiting to explode. ”

“McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital ...

“His Vietnamese captors soon realized their POW, John Sidney McCain III, came from a well-bred line in the American military elite. . .The Vietnamese realized, this poor stooge has propaganda value. The admiral’s boy was used to special treatment, and his captors knew that. They were working him.”

“. . .two weeks into his stay at the Vietnamese hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him. It was not ‘name rank and serial number, or kill me’. as specified by the military code of conduct. McCain divulged specific military information: he gave the name of the aircraft carrier on which he was based, the number of U.S. pilots that had been lost, the number of aircraft in his flight formation, as well as information about the location of rescue ships.”

“…McCain was held for five and half years. The first two weeks’ behavior might have been pragmatism, but McCain soon became North Vietnam’s go-to collaborator…..McCain cooperated with the North Vietnamese for a period of three years. His situation isn’t as innocuous as that of the French barber who cuts the hair of the German occupier. McCain was repaying his captors for their kindness and mercy.

“This is the lesson of McCain’s experience as a POW: a true politician, a hollow man, his only allegiance is to power. The Vietnamese, like McCain’s campaign contributors today, protected and promoted him, and, in return, he danced to their tune. . .”

More on that here.

We saw the fawning and adulation of Kerry in the last go-round and the vilification of the Swiftboat Vets.  The difference this time is that anyone challenging the McCain-as-hero line has not gained any traction.

Why do I think collaboration is a possibility?

McCain made some odd statements after his release from Vietnam.  More than that, he has established a track record of seething hatred to those American POWs and MIAs left behind, as well as working hard, along with Kerry and Kennedy to reward Vietnam with a removal of the US trade embargo and normalized relations, despite the fact that many US POW’s remained unaccounted for.

Cmdr. McCain Blamed U.S. Politics For N. Vietnamese Collaboration

And here.

Former KGB Maj. Gen. Oleg Kalugin testified under oath before the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs that the KGB interrogated U.S. POWs in Vietnam.

Gen. Kalugin stated that one of the POWs worked on by the KGB was a “high-ranking naval officer,” who, according to Kalugin, agreed to work with the Soviets upon his repatriation to the United States and has frequently appeared on U.S. television.

Col. Bui Tin, a former Senior Colonel in the North Vietnamese Army, testified on the same day, but after Usry, that because of his high position in the Communist Party during the war, he had the authority to “read all documents and secret telegrams from the politburo” pertaining to American prisoners of war. He said that not only did the Soviets interrogate some American prisoners of war, but that they treated the Americans very badly.

Sen. McCain stunned onlookers at the hearing when he rushed forward to the witness table and warmly embraced Col. Bui Tin as if he was a long, lost brother.

Candidate McCain must answer whether or not he had any contact with the Soviets while he was a prisoner of the communists.

Candidate McCain must answer why he warmly embraced Col. Bui Tin, one of his former interrogators.

During the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs hearings, McCain opposed all efforts by the POW/MIA families and activists to have the Select Committee expand its investigation to study how successful the Vietnamese, Soviet, Chinese and Cuban interrogation apparatuses were at exploiting American prisoners of war. During the Korean War, one out of every three U.S. POWs collaborated.

Candidate McCain must answer why he was opposed to such an investigation.

A McCain POW timeline proving that McCain’s collaborations with the enemy continued over a three year period can be found on the internet at: http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcianhro.htm

Is John McCain a real life Manchurian Candidate? The original 1992 John McCain: The Manchurain Candidate report can be found on the internet at:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm

Embracing warmly the guys who interrogated and supposedly tortured you—for years???

Now that defies logic.

Working for the enemy country to establish normalized relations?

That defies logic as well.

But what really gets my suspicions aroused is his reported behavior to MIA families:

Members of the two major POW/MIA family organizations know the “real” John McCain and they despise him. They have experienced firsthand his cruel, angry temperament.

In 1996, McCain encountered a group of POW/MIA family members outside a Senate hearing room. The family members were some of the same who worked tirelessly during the Vietnam War to make sure Hanoi released all U.S. POWs - including POW McCain.

McCain immediately began quarreling with the POW/MIA family members, who were eager to question him on the issue of what happened to their loved ones.

Instead showing courtesy and appropriate compassion by answering their questions, the Arizona senator pushed through the group, shoving them out of his way, nearly toppling the wheelchair of POW/MIA mother Jane Duke Gaylor. Her son, Charles Duke, a civilian worker in Vietnam, is among 2,300 American POWs and MIAs still unaccounted for by the communists.

The POW/MIA families, shocked at McCain’s overly aggressive behavior toward Mrs. Gaylor, registered complaints with senate officials.

In an earlier incident involving families of servicemen still MIA, McCain got so angry that he went ballistic.

McCain was advised (Nov. 11, 1992) that Dolores Apodaca Alfond, chairwoman of the National Alliance of POW/MIA Families (her pilot brother Capt. Victor J. Apodaca is missing in action in North Vietnam), was offering testimony critical of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. He rushed into the hearing room to confront her.

Award winning journalist Sydney Schanberg described the scene. “His face [McCain] angry and his voice very loud, he accused her of making ‘allegations … that are patently and totally false and deceptive.’

“Making a fist, he shook his index finger at her and said she had insulted an emissary to Vietnam sent by President Bush. He said she had insulted other MIA families with her remarks. And then he said, through clenched teeth: ‘And I am sick and tired of you insulting mine and other people’s [patriotism] who happen to have different views than yours.’

“By this time, tears were running down Alfond’s cheeks. She reached into her handbag for a handkerchief. She tried to speak: ‘The family members have been waiting for years — years! And now you’re shutting down.’ He kept interrupting her. She tried to say, through tears, that she had issued no insults. He kept talking over her words. He said she was accusing him and others of ’some conspiracy without proof, and some cover-up.’ She said she was merely seeking ’some answers. That is what I am asking.’ He ripped into her for using the word ‘fiasco.’ She replied: ‘The fiasco was the people that stepped out and said we have written the end, the final chapter to Vietnam.’ ‘No one said that,’ he shouted. ‘No one said what you are saying they said, Ms. Alfond.’ And then, his face flaming pink, he stalked out of the room, to shouts of disfavor from members of the audience.”

Something doesn’t quite jive about McCain’s heroic story.

Comments

Readers of this - well - bizarre post may need to know that Alexander Cockburn is an Irish immigrant now living in the US as a naturalized citizen.

Among the many journalistic oddities in his checkered career are these:

Fired by the VILLAGE VOICE for accepting $10,000 from a pro-Arab studies organization.

Frequently attacks Israel and penned “The Politics Of Anti-Semitism”.

Supported Ralph Nader for president in 2000, 2004.

Has attacked Dems for not being progressive enough in comparison to the Republicans.

Bitterly opposed Reagan policies in Central America and Iran-Contra.

Opposed the US invasion of Afghanistan following 9/11.

Claimed US invasion of Iraq was nothing more than government-sponsored mass murder of Iraqis and that presidential candidates were thereby mass-murderers.

Attacked the German government as ‘nazis’ for banning scientology.

If you’re a fan of the Few-Screws-Loose school of journalism, then this sleezy attack on John McCain is just the thing to make your day.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 21, 2008 at 07:10 am
Proof
Proof
11129 comments
Send a private message

Alexander Cockburn

is also a columnist for the decidedly left of center: The Nation magazine. Hardly the way to establish one’s unbiased bona fides!



For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Proof on June 21, 2008 at 07:22 am

pparets why are you attacking the messenger and not trying to refute the message?

ellinas on June 21, 2008 at 09:40 am

Stockholm Syndrome.

Embracing warmly the guys who interrogated and supposedly tortured you—for years???
Now that defies logic.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Working for the enemy country to establish normalized relations?
That defies logic as well.

Leading the effort to normalize ties with Vietnam were three senators who served in the Vietnam War: Sens. John Kerry, D-Mass., Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., and John McCain, R-Ariz., a former prisoner of war.

Asian Week 2001

WOOF on June 21, 2008 at 09:50 am

ellinas:  The messenger IS the message.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 21, 2008 at 09:54 am

MZ, not really certain which tack you are taking with this. Pretty much anyone who is conscious at all knows this potatobug asshole is a complete loon.  That said, the men who initially brought the speculation about McC’s conduct in captivity died before formal investigation could be brought. Unless NVA and Russian jailers come forward with evidence, this is a non-starter.

And y’all know where I stand on McC.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 21, 2008 at 10:31 am

So pparets you say this is his message?
Readers of this - well - bizarre post may need to know that Alexander Cockburn is an Irish immigrant now living in the US as a naturalized citizen.

Among the many journalistic oddities in his checkered career are these:

Fired by the VILLAGE VOICE for accepting $10,000 from a pro-Arab studies organization.

Frequently attacks Israel and penned “The Politics Of Anti-Semitism”.

Supported Ralph Nader for president in 2000, 2004.

Has attacked Dems for not being progressive enough in comparison to the Republicans.

Bitterly opposed Reagan policies in Central America and Iran-Contra.

Opposed the US invasion of Afghanistan following 9/11.

Claimed US invasion of Iraq was nothing more than government-sponsored mass murder of Iraqis and that presidential candidates were thereby mass-murderers.
Attacked the German government as ‘nazis’ for banning scientology.

How about refuting this:
Sen. McCain stunned onlookers at the hearing when he moved forward to the witness table and warmly embraced Bui Tin as if he was a long, lost brother.

“Was that hug for Bui Tin, a Vietnamese official responsible for the torture of some American prisoners of war, a message ‘please don’t give them my records?’” one activist questioned at the time.

ellinas on June 21, 2008 at 10:33 am

I think we can beat up on McCain without going into what happened when he was a POW.

On the other hand picking fights with MIA families when he was a politician is fair game. 

That is probably something that could be verified as well.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on June 21, 2008 at 10:34 am

I’m not surprised that the resident McCain-shill is attacking the messenger without refuting the message.  Do consider this: he is not the only messenger, as there were numerous links included in this post.

Guys, I admit surviving 5 1/2 years of torture is a great accomplishment of sheer will and endurance, if that is in fact what happened.

Evidently, there are those who question what actually did happen.  Like you say, however, there is a big evidentiary problem in proving or disproving, so I will not dwell on something that may well be unprovable in the legal sense.

That being said, what he has done since that time, which conflicts with the main story line, is fair game. 

The mention of Stockholm Syndrome is quite apt and seems to be a better explanation for his getting up crossing a room and warmly embracing someone who supposedly tortured and interrogated him over a period of years. Or it may be the indicator of something else.

Those familiar with surviving PW’s, particularly those who were held by Japanese, North Korean and Vietnamese captors, almost uniformly describe inhuman cruelty—the beatings, the starvation, the working of prisoners to death, the headgames and so forth.  One of my one-time sweethearts’ father had been held by the Japanese during WWII and supposedly worked on the rail line that later became the basis of the film ‘Bridge over the River Kwai’

He never fully recovered his health from those years of beatings, starvation and slavery, nor could he bring himself to have anything but hatred and contempt for his captors—as he had seen many of his comrades butchered or worked or starved to death in their custody.

This does not seem to jive with McCain’s actions upon returning to the USA.  His working so hard to restore full trade and diplomatic relations with Vietnam, particularly in the face of the fact that so many questions remained about MIAs and POWs still in Vietnam.

- Five year torture survivor?
- Collaborator /Brainwashed?
- Stockholm Syndrome victim?

Which of these fit best with his actions since his release?

As a former PW, you would think that he would use all his power and influence to rescue his comrades still trapped in Vietnamese work / death camps. 

The exact opposite is true.  He has expressed nothing but contempt and even rage towards MIA/PW families and dismissed efforts to secure their whereabouts and status.

Taken a step further, rather than having a deep and abiding loathing for the (Leftist) political system which allegedly subjected him to torture over 5 years time, he has since worked closely with US-based Leftists since his rise to power.  Notably, he has been getting substantial financial support by the billionaire George Soros -- the man who, using his billions, had enough power and influence to break the bank of England.  He also happens to be the financial support behind such organizations as MoveOn.org and the Aspen Institute.

Groups including MoveOn.org are banned from coordinating activities with any party or candidate. But they have gained prominence under last year’s McCain-Feingold campaign finance act which ended unregulated “soft money” donations. Democrats had relied on soft money to help claw back a Republican advantage in individual donations.

So, if you don’t believe me, so be it.  Cockburn? Fine, then ignore him. 

But if this man is about to ascend to the leadership of the free world with his finger on the nuclear button and in command of such organizations as IRS and BATF, you’d best look into his true character and who may be pulling his strings.

Like an FBI-friend, who’d combatted organized crime for 30 years before he retired, once told me—follow the money.

As I said, something just does not jive with the McCain cover story.  Indeed, it stinks like hell.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 21, 2008 at 11:43 am

The mention of Stockholm Syndrome is quite apt and seems to be a better explanation for his getting up crossing a room and warmly embracing someone who supposedly tortured and interrogated him over a period of years. Or it may be the indicator of something else.

Maybe McCain holds a measure of forgiveness for his former captors. Bitterness and resentment is like taking poison and then waiting for the other person to die.

That’s not to say that McCain is consistent on this issue, just that there’s a possible explanation outside of Stockholm Syndrome.

likwidshoe on June 21, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Move_Zig,

I do believe it’s amply clear that I am no fan of McCain.  That makes the ill supported suppositions and whispered allegations above no less of a calumny and the authors thereof no more honorable.

More’s the pity such calumnies are no longer directly actionable.

Good Day, sirrah.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 21, 2008 at 12:08 pm

M_Z:

There is a big evidentiary problem in proving or disproving, so I will not dwell on something that may well be unprovable…

Too bad you didn’t apply that standard before you posted it.  And you call me a shill!

As anyone here knows, I rarely comment on ‘messengers’, but in Cockburn’s case, his blatant history of anti-conservatism, conservative-bashing and peculiar journalism seemed to cry out for disclosure.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 21, 2008 at 12:10 pm

The Americans who could attest to these events are long dead. The NVA and Russians who can speak to it are silent by choice or long dead. This is a non-starter. That is why potatobug asshole latched on to it.

Anyone want to guess why potatobug asshole fled to America and gamed the system in order to become a citizen? Hello?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 21, 2008 at 03:07 pm

If I were given the file of this man, McCain, to see if he qualified for a SECRET clearance, I would go over his background and check for indicia of weaknesses and vulnerabilities to something called subornation

Experienced intelligence officers often remark that spies are made rather than born, and by this they mean that treason is not an innate behavior. It results from time, place and circumstances, and it is motivated by money, ideology, compromise or ego. Or MICE, in the parlance of the trade. 

Essentially, subornation is spy-speak for getting blackmailed, or otherwise controlled by an undisclosed third party.  The danger is that someone who is admitted to a position of special trust and confidence is given access to government information that can have serious consequences for national defense if revealed to the nation’s enemies.

The fact of the matter is that McCain is not up for a simple SECRET clearance.  If elevated to the office of the presidency he will have access to the nation’s most sensitive secrets.  He will have access to above TOP SECRET/ SCI/ SBI/ NORFORM / UMBRA and so on.

More importantly, he will be in command of the US military and intelligence apparatuses.  He will set national policies and priorities, and he has long signaled his intent to grant mass amnesty to millions of illegal aliens, and thereby open the floodgates to millions more, to adopt the Eco-idiots Socialism in Green Clothing Cap-and-Trade policies, continue to bludgeon the First Amendment and otherwise follow the Leftist trajectory he has followed with increasing intensity since 2001.

All the more reason to delve into the background and motivations of the man who would be our Commander in Chief.

Based upon the publicly-available information that is out there, I would say that there is indicia of subornation in McCain.  For instance:

1) He was exposed to the exclusive and direct control of Soviet and North Vietnamese intelligence officers for a period of 5 and one-half years. 

2) Since his release and return to the USA and ascent to political power, he has worked for the best national interests of his erstwhile enemies and expressed contempt for and worked against the best interests of his unreleased fellow captives.

3) He has directed a great deal of his energies to working toward the interests of US-based Leftists, associates with them and at one point considered openly joining them.

Openly joining with the likes of Reid, Kennedy and Kerry would not have distressed me nearly so much as it has for him to continue to fly under the flag of Republican, yet continue to do the work—so very often—of US-based Leftists.

Which brings us to another aspect of intelligence tradecraft.  Agents of Influence.

What is an Agent of Influence?

According to the leading intelligence experts, Godson and Schultz, an:

agent-of-influence operation (is one) carried out by a person who subtly and artfully uses his or her position, influence, power, and credibility to promote the objectives of a foreign power in ways unattributable to that power.

It is well-documented that McCain has been gleaning a great deal of his financial support from ueber-Leftist George Soros.  It is documented that Soros is by no means a hands-off philanthropist—if he pays the piper, he damn well calls the tune.

Then there is this:

Insight: Do you think the Soviets and the Communist movement were bent on world domination from the beginning.

NG: Not world domination exactly, though maybe it was at one time. It’s simply complete influence so that what they want they can get. Complete influence, by every and any means....

I’m going to make you think I’m insane, but the effort still exists, having changed only its mode of action. Before, they had the idea that they would cause a revolution from below, and all the governments would topple. Today, they’re working from another angle. Instead of pressure from below, they’re applying pressure from above.

This is not to say that it is the former Soviets or even the Red Chinese that are calling the shots for McCain.  Most likely, it is George Soros himself.

If that is the case, what plans does George Soros have for the United States?  Consider the following:

The George Soros Connection

While it may sound good in theory, a “Democracy Coalition Project” was actually started in June of 2002 and it has been run by the political left, most of them former Clinton officials. Seed money and original sponsorship were provided by the George Soros-funded Open Society Institute. Key officials include Morton Halperin, the director of Soros’s Open Society Institute Washington office, and former Clinton Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who served as Strobe Talbott’s boss. Halperin also worked under Albright at State.

If McCain is promoting a Soros-funded project or idea, it would not be the first time. World Net Daily and others have noted evidence that McCain’s “Reform Institute” also received funds from Soros. Hernandez is a senior fellow there.

Could Soros, the billionaire financial manipulator, be in a position to call the shots no matter who is elected in the fall?

It is certainly relevant and significant that Talbott’s book The Great Experiment identifies Soros, one of the “visitors to my office” when he was in the Clinton State Department, as one of his advisers on issues like NATO. Talbott also thanks Soros in the acknowledgements section of his book.

Soros wrote Toward a New World Order: The Future of NATO, back in 1993. He figured that NATO could take on the military responsibilities of the New World Order until the U.N. was ready to do the job.

It sounds a lot like the McCain plan.

No wonder Talbott is pleased with our “choices” this fall.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 21, 2008 at 04:23 pm

Let’s see… would it be safe to say that you don’t like John McCain?

What an astounding collection of if’s, then’s, might’s and maybe’s, where selected military jargon and random political commentary are linked to McCain by you - and nothing else - in an oddly speculative potpourri because it suits your purpose.

Time to put away your copy of Manchurian Candidate and go for a walk.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 21, 2008 at 04:59 pm

Move_Zig,

That’s a positively “balackwater"boob standard.

Furthermore, did it escape your attention that McCain subsequently served as a squadron commander?  Did it further escape your attention that in those duties, and in his later duties as liason officer to the Senate, both of which would have carried clearances of at least SECRET and almost assuredly TOP SECRET (with riders) for his duties as Senatorial liason?

None of those would have happened, nor would he have been promoted to CDR and later CAPT (and was offered promotion to RADM) if there had been questions as to his loyalty or patriotism.

I don’t like the man.  But I’ll not stand by and see him slandered in this manner.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 21, 2008 at 05:57 pm

McCain served his country honorably and was a POW for 5+ years.  Enough said, and I believe it is off limits to question his time as a POW.  It is beyond the pale that anyone would question his time as a POW.  He is an American hero. 

Move Zig, I think you need to take a step back here.  There is no need for this.

Puzzlefeet on June 21, 2008 at 06:55 pm

So, puzz? Your leftard chihuahua, potatobug asshole(Alexander Cockburn) will cease and desist from this shit he wrote, amply quoted by MZ? Is that what you are saying?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 21, 2008 at 07:13 pm

2hotel9: 

Cockburn will cease and desist

Haha!  Good one, 9.  But wqe both know that Cockburn makes his living titillating lefties with this kind of garbage.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 21, 2008 at 07:19 pm

Yes, if I can read between the foul language you at one time said you would stop using. 

I, quite frankly, haven’t heard of this guy,(so he ain’t mine) but I absolutely think he should stop it. It has no place in this conversation, it’s wrong and should stop.

There, is that good enough for you Hotel, and I didn’t even have to use foul language.

Oh,and pparets, he ain’t “titillating” me in the least.

Puzzlefeet on June 21, 2008 at 07:49 pm

perhaps mccain knows what it is to be a soldier or an officer and follow orders. perhaps he has forgiveness. no one wants a president who thinks in the past.

but people who entertain these grand conspiracies hold a special place for me. i have that same sort of inherent distrust. i think hotel9 is right. you’ll never know.

mccain as president. a surd of a thought. but i dont want the other guy either. this election has reached new heights of bullshit. its a ‘reality’ show.

the real question is what’s going on on your block?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 21, 2008 at 08:20 pm

As anyone here knows, I rarely comment on ‘messengers’, but in Cockburn’s case, his blatant history of anti-conservatism, conservative-bashing and peculiar journalism seemed to cry out for disclosure.

pparets comments on his fairness in dealing with his opposing views, than includes this:

Readers of this - well - bizarre post may need to know that Alexander Cockburn is an Irish immigrant now living in the US as a naturalized citizen.

OMG Zig...an Irish immigrant!

pparets should at least have the decency to not pick and choose when researching someone.

Cockburn has also been critical of the NYT and B. Obama and the above named, Chris Hitchens.

And there is much, much more about this man that some on the right would agree with, yet it is conveniently left off of pparets “list”.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 21, 2008 at 09:58 pm

Rodney,

You and I have, in the past, have expressed similarly held viewpoints but I disagree with you on this.

Although Zig has commonly been very critical of McCain, I don’t believe he is slanderous. There are many good questions which are brought up in this article…questions that should be investigated by other journalists.

I for one am not a conspiracy theorist and have always been bothered by Zig’s propensity to bring up the Manchurian Candidate scenario. However, McCain’s treatment, along with Kerry’s, of the MIA/POW issue is fair game…as is funding by Soros and other dealings.

This sounds to me that if given the chance, Zig would investigate the possibility of some nefarious activity:

If I were given the file of this man, McCain, to see if he qualified for a SECRET clearance, I would go over his background and check for indicia of weaknesses and vulnerabilities to something called subornation. 

Of course...I dislike McCain so much I think Mulder and Scully should open an X-file on him.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 21, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Cockburn was but one of the references.  There are many being ignored and the information left unread.

I can only present the information.  I can’t read or evaluate it for you.  That you must do for yourselves.  I worked in counterintelligence.  There are numerous red flags connected with McCain’s background to make him suspect.

At least with Obama, people know he is a Leftist.  My greatest concern is that with McCain, he is running under a false flag.  He is a Leftist, yet operates under the guise of being a Republican.

Truly this election cycle is one that is heads-I-win-tails-you-lose in the Leftists favor.

Time will tell, and if I am vindicated great damage will have been done, so it will come as no comfort to me.

I would much rather be pleasantly surprised by McCain actually doing Conservative things.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 21, 2008 at 10:37 pm

First, a correction: the classification designator should not be NORFORM.  It is properly NOFORN (not for foreign nationals)

Second, let’s look at the following statements:

1) He was exposed to the exclusive and direct control of Soviet and North Vietnamese intelligence officers for a period of 5 and one-half years.

What part of this statement is incorrect or conjectural?  Can you concede this point?

2) Since his release and return to the USA and ascent to political power, he has worked for the best national interests of his erstwhile enemies and expressed contempt for and worked against the best interests of his unreleased fellow captives.

I have already provided quotes and links supporting these statements. What part of them is incorrect or conjectural?  Can you concede this point?

3) He has directed a great deal of his energies to working toward the interests of US-based Leftists, associates with them and at one point considered openly joining them.

His close ties to Ted Kennedy and other Congressional Leftists are open and notorious, as are his antagonistic positions to those of his own Republican constituents and colleagues.

What part of this statement is incorrect or conjectural?  Can you concede this point?

McCain’s support from ueber-Leftists like Soros and Heinz-Kerry have been well documented. I have provided links supporting this proposition above.

What part of this statement is incorrect or conjectural?  Can you concede this point?


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 21, 2008 at 10:59 pm

I would much rather be pleasantly surprised by McCain actually doing Conservative things.

Agreed, my friend...but I suppose we may never find out; Obama is destined to be our next president.My one wish is that he shows his intolerable stupidity often and early and that we survive four years under his dictates. The end of which brings a good conservative, with common sense and wisdom, to office.

Since there currently are no conservatives, in the political realm, with those qualities...I have little hope for our future.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 21, 2008 at 11:14 pm

LDS, thanks.

Since there currently are no conservatives, in the political realm, with those qualities...I have little hope for our future.

There are several scenarios that I can see unfolding. Realistically, none of them are good, but some are less bad than others.

My hope is that if Obama does get elected that he makes no mistakes that will be fatal for the nation.  I have no doubts that his governance will be damaging and unpopular with a broad swath of the electorate as taxes and gas prices skyrocket and the international scene exposes the US to Carter-like humiliations.

Assuming that we can get a crop of truly Conservative Freshmen elected in the 2010 cycle, we might be able to limit the worst of the damage to the first two years.

It’s not much to hang your hat on, is it?

Whose sig-line says: Election 2008 - we are so screwed?

Sadly, that is spot-on.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 21, 2008 at 11:33 pm

Assuming that we can get a crop of truly Conservative Freshmen elected in the 2010 cycle, we might be able to limit the worst of the damage to the first two years.

Truly conservative…as in we’re-not-going-to-pander-to-the-leftist-values conservatives.

You’re dreaming Zig…wake up!!


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 22, 2008 at 12:30 am

"There are spies! Leftie spies everywhere, I tell you!! And that McCain commie is the worst of the lot!!”

“Yes, yes, my dear.  I’m so very disappointed in Rodney. And that pp boffoon just spends his time cherry-picking facts.”

“I know, I know! Why won’t they concede that I’m right!  I have all of these SOURCES

“Never you mind those bad people, my sweet, you and I are the only ones who know the truth.”

“Thank you, thank you, my love. And did I tell you that McCain was seen in the company of Harry Ried! Do you realize what that means!!??”

“Hush, hush, my pet. You just rest now. I’ll take care of those bad, bad people with one of my witty bon mots. You know how devastating I can be.”


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 06:57 am

LDS,

The reward for laying down with the owners of such slanderous and caluminous tongues is the infestation of pulix which will shortly manifest.

I bid you the joy of your well earned parasite load.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 22, 2008 at 07:58 am

So much for cogent and reasoned responses.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 22, 2008 at 10:29 am

There is a big evidentiary problem in proving or disproving, so I will not dwell on something that may well be unprovable…

... and yet you did.

Graves siad it best:

I don’t like the man, but I’ll not stand by and see him slandered in this manner.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 10:42 am

Taking the cue from the CodePink and Moveon.org have you?

In matters of national security and counter-intelligence the standard of proof is far different from defending a US citizen of criminal charges.

Conflating the two has become the cause celebre of the Left, and far beneath any Conservative.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 22, 2008 at 11:03 am

I bid you the joy of your well earned parasite load.

Apparently Rodney is joining the pparets crowd and doesn’t desire to question McCains ethics…

All politicians who served our country are honest, trustworty, and due the respect of the nation...eh, Rod!

The reward for laying down and not taking a stand is joining the leftward movement toward Marxism.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 22, 2008 at 11:10 am

I dunno LDS, I would like to see others join this thread and get a wider cross-section of Conservatives / intelligence.

First off, we learned in CI (counter-intelligence) that noone is above suspicion. 

Case in point: 

1994—Aldrich Ames
Ames was characterized as probably the most damaging turncoat in U.S. history. A career agency official, Ames began selling U.S. secrets to the KGB in 1985, when he was head of the CIA’s Soviet counterintelligence unit. Within a decade he had revealed more than 100 covert operations and betrayed at least 30 agents.

The most damaging spies are the ones at high levels, where it is difficult to challenge a senior manager’s authority (imagine Inspector Columbo as he investigates J. Edgar Hoover—imagine the difficulties there) Most of the focus is on the small fish, secretaries who leave out classified material or middle managers who take a file with them to study at home, or agents who lose notebook computers in travel. 

Yet it is the likes of a General Benedict Arnold, Kim Philby or a William Jefferson Clinton ensuring multistage booster and Neutron Bomb warhead technology is transferred to the Red Chinese who do the most damage.

That being said, there must be at least indicia of deception or subornation for that suspicion to be reasonable (not be confused with the Constitutional reasonable suspicion standard required in domestic criminal cases)

With McCain, indicia are present in spades.

Whether that is acknowledged or not is of no moment—the links have been provided.  The counter-proof has not.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 22, 2008 at 11:36 am

With McCain, indicia are present in spades.

there is a big evidentiary problem in proving or disproving, so I will not dwell on something that may well be unprovable.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 11:45 am

pparets,

If you have something to say...just say it.

No doubt I’ll make fun of you but I enjoy it. Posting two comments from Zig, which don’t conflict, is cowardly and not the least beneath you.

Your liberal tendencies are now in full bloom!


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 22, 2008 at 12:26 pm

If you have something to say… just say it.

I just did.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 12:28 pm

As others - besides myself - have said on this thread, this condemnation of McCain - implying that he is a communist/soviet/VC agent - by innuendo is despicable.

If people want to poke McCain for crossing the aisle, that’s fair.  {But all presidents have done it.]

If you want to attack McCain for not promoting drilling in ANWR, go ahead.  {I think he is dead wrong on that issue.]

If there’s unhappiness that he co-sponsored McCain/Feingold, have at it! [Not my favorite McCain issue either.]

Feel free to condemn him on immigration. [He has said he will secure our borders first. I hope he means it.]

Hack away at his record all you want. [It’s still far, far better than Obama’s.]

But to patch together a few op-ed pieces, quote a little CI jargon, and then suggest that Senator McCain is some Manchurian Candidate waiting to destroy the republic is libelous, unsubstantiated slander.  It is plainly contemptible!

Spare me your righteous indignation.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Your liberal tendencies are now in full bloom!

Yes, that much is abundantly clear.

He juxtaposes the aspect concerning McCain’s time as a PW—which I conceded early on has an evidentiary problem and would not dwell on—
and my statements concerning his conduct since that time, which has been my focus.

Nice piece of work from Winston’s MINISTRY OF TRUTH.

Here’s a medal from the Politburo:

140b2nm.jpg

Secondly, he has failed utterly to respond to any of those points made in my June 21, 2008 at 10:59 pm post.  I don’t consider the incoherent postings since that time as reasoned or cogent responses.

I will respond to other posters, who take the time to exert some intelligence on this topic—but no more time-wasting with someone whom evidently has adopted CodePink and MoveOn.org tactics and thinking.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on June 22, 2008 at 01:05 pm

LDS,

I have problems with McCains ethics.  Specifically the Keating 5 and his subsequent role in the suppression of political speech billed as campaign finance reform.

I find McCain’s understanding of economics laughable, and his resistance to domestic drilling contemptible.

I don’t trust McCain when it comes to immigration and border security.

To suggest that he’s a Manchurian Candidate, after his return, physical therapy, debriefing, and psychological evaluation (the last two done with all long term POW’s returning from Vietnam), and when viewd in light of his return to active duty, eventual squadron command, and other duties requiring security clearances, absent clear evidence of subversion, is a calumny of the most disgraceful and slanderous kind.  It is the kind of accusation one would expect of CodePink, MoveOn.org, “blackwater"boob, or other despicable effluent disseminators of the unhinged left.

I cordially suggest that a wise judicious commenter would change company and opinions in this matter.  Failing that, I suggest investment and regular use of a flea collar.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 22, 2008 at 02:30 pm

To suggest that he’s a Manchurian Candidate, after his return,…

I never suggested anything of the sort...in fact I wrote:

I for one am not a conspiracy theorist and have always been bothered by Zig’s propensity to bring up the Manchurian Candidate scenario.

So when you address me...get your facts straight!


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 22, 2008 at 02:44 pm

RGraves knows full well you didn’t accuse Mccain of being a Manchurian Candidate. Indeed, he specifically suggests that:

a wise commentator [you] would change company [Zig] and opinions in this matter. Failing that, I would suggest investment in and regular use use of a flea collar. [for running-dogs, I assume]

But, in defense of this outrageous post, you did say:

Apparently Rodney is joining the pparets crowd and doesn’t desire to question McCain’s ethics.

Ethics!!?? 

RGraves was totally justified in calling you on it.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 03:08 pm

My Gawd but I do love a good splintering now and again.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Keep up the good work goppers!


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

realitybasedbob on June 22, 2008 at 06:08 pm

pparets,

What are you doing? Do you open other peoples mail also?

When I want an answer from you, I’ll address you. Not that I would ever want an answer from you, but if the times comes when I need to find dirctions to the nearest bar in Allentown that serves ‘Ole Miss Froth ‘n Slosh...I’ll give you a toot.


“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

laydownSally on June 22, 2008 at 06:21 pm

LDS:

When I want an answer from you, I’ll address you.

Sorta like when you addressed me without leave about a zillion posts ago?

But, what the hell, no one controls what others say on SAB.  Ain’t that great?

BTW: Sounds good.  It’s about a 90 minute drive from my place, as long as you are buying.  smile


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 06:30 pm

Fairy tales

Can come true

It can happen to you

If you’re young at heart…


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

realitybasedbob on June 22, 2008 at 06:37 pm

buzz off, rbb.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on June 22, 2008 at 06:41 pm

bbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

realitybasedbob on June 22, 2008 at 06:43 pm

"blackwater"boob,

If, for some unknown and unknowable reason we need shit, we’ll send someone around with a shovel to collect you.

LDS,

I warned you about the company you were inviting in.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 23, 2008 at 08:32 am
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