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Tuesday, November 21, 2006

The Iraqi Constitution - How To Fake Democracy

This post is the result of a disagreement I had with Rob, Bat One, and 2hotel9 about the legitimacy of Iraq’s ‘democracy’ and its constitution. If they didn’t test me I wouldn’t have gone through any trouble, but I know my goddamn Poli Sci and I wasn’t going to take it sitting down. As 2Hotel9 puts it: “sparkle pacifist is gonna pee it’s panties”.

Rob said the following:

Of course, the government representatives elected by the people are all asking for the U.S. to stay.


and

The people of Iraq have their own sovereign government now.


and I replied

We left out the Sunnis. Anyone who knows anything about this stuff knows that a consociational or power-sharing government is the only option in an ethnically and religiously charged situation like Iraq. Its clear stability was not our goal when you take that into account.


See the original spat here. What I said is true. What we have over there IS technically a democracy, but the Sunni minority has been excluded and much of the recent political history there can quickly explain why we will continue to see lots of violence in this ‘democracy’ until the Sunnis are included and all the citizens can be represented not only in the government, but also in the constitution.

First, I was right and you three were all wrong. Now the substance:

Iraq gained independence from Britain in 1932, and was claimed a Republic in 1958, even though it was nothing more than a series of military strongmen, the latest who was Saddam Hussein (Israeli, 6). Saddam Hussein represented the Sunni Muslim minority, a population which constitutes only 32% compared to the 65% of the Shiite majority, or the 15-20% comprised of the Kurdish minority (CIA Iraq, 3). Saddam Hussein’s regime was dismantled, not due to preventive negotiations like South Africa, but because the United States ousted Hussein’s regime over acclaimed non-compliance with the United Nations Security Council (Israeli, 7).

Following this, a Constitutional Drafting Committee was formed, and it was expected that they would finish the constitutional draft in time for the referendum on October 15, 2005( Morrow, 9). Unfortunately, in August, the Committee was scrapped and a Leadership Council was formed with the Sunni representatives excluded from the negotiations. The draft was completed by the projected due date, and was put up to a national referendum on October 15, just as planned. The most contentious issues regarding issues like women’s rights, or how much power the regions should have, were left out of the negotiations (Phillips, 156). The draft would be nullified if two-thirds of three provinces voted against it becoming the permanent constitution (Harvard, 1205). So the Sunnis were excluded from the drafting of the constitution and then the majority (again excluding the Sunnis) voted it in.

As one might expect following Sunni exclusion from the Constitutional negotiations, the three provinces that heavily voted against it were Sunni dominated (1206). Two of the provinces, Salahudain and Anbar, voted 82% and 97% respectively against it. The third province, Ninevan, had a 55% vote against passing the draft, just barely missing the three provinces, two-third majority requirement. Even though this requirement was barely missed, Sunni opposition to the new constitutional framework was already beginning to show.

On December 15, 2005, the first parliamentary elections were held for the National Assembly. 128 seats out of 275 were won by the Shiites, the Sunnis took 44 and the Kurds 53 seats. The final constitutional framework that was passed, set up the institution of the legislature as divided into the Council of Representatives and the Council of Unions (Iraq Constitution 9-12). The Council of Representatives is elected by proportional representation for a four year term, and has the responsibility of electing the President, Prime Minister and Deputy President, by an absolute majority vote. Decisions on passing legislation are also made by the Council of Representatives, and only a simple majority vote is required. The Council of Unions is made up of representatives from the 18 provinces, and is responsible for looking over legislation that is directly pertinent to the provinces, but they have no veto power to stop legislation from passing (13). The Iraqi Central Bank, Financial Inspection Office, and the Media and Communications Agency are all responsible directly to the Council of Representatives (17).

The Iraq Constitution also mandates revenue sharing of all future profits made from oil, since oil and gas, under the new constitution, is seen as the property of all the Iraqi people (19). Revenues are to be distributed fairly all over the country. Each province is to have their own President and National Council, which are to be directly elected, but in reality, the total amount of power each province has amounts to basically nothing more than jurisdiction over their police forces. Iraq’s Constitution calls for a majoritarian system for passing legislation and electing a President, which will have dire consequences on the minority population of the Sunnis.

Saddam’s disposal gave the political actors the opportunity to implement institutions and form a constitutional framework that would work towards cooperation and representation of all groups, but instead reverse marginalization has taken place through both of their majoritarian systems and policies. Majoritarianism can lead to increased conflict in deeply divided societies, [like Iraq], since certain groups may find themselves disadvantaged in terms of resources, or have policies imposed on them against their will. Majoritarian systems are okay for homogenous societies [like the U.S.], but majoritarianism is likely to exacerbate divisions in heterogeneous societies, and can even lead to civil war or secession. A positive future for the world’s most deeply divided societies can be achieved only by some variation of power sharing (241). Consociational democracy is the sort of democracy this country needs to adopt if there is to ever be cooperation and peace.

There are four main characteristics that are vital towards implementing consociational democracy. First, executive power should be shared amongst the representatives of all major groups. Second, there should be a high degree of segmental autonomy for those groups who want it. Third, there should be proportional representation in government and the civil service, and fourth, each group should have a minority veto over the most vital issues. Robert Dahl, a supporter of consociational democracy, advises that there needs to be mutual security for cooperation to happen (Dahl, 118). Consociational democracy provides mutual security and minority protection. Some academics worry that consociational democracy may lead to deadlock since each group has a minority veto. This may be the case, but for many deeply divided societies, especially like Iraq, the alternative to a situation of deadlock is civil war. Also, the minority veto is a mutual veto and because of this it will be used conservatively since each segment understands that if it does not use it in such a way, opposing segments will block their legislation next time.

Iraq needs to adopt three of the requirements. It already has proportional representation in government, but lacks it in civil service. Proportional representation is not enough to guarantee representation when one group has more than 50% of the population (158). Proportional representation may make minority inclusion more likely, but it does not guarantee it. South Africa, for example, does have a veto for the legislation that is pertinent to regions, but unfortunately the racial groups in this country are not geographically concentrated, but intermixed, unlike Iraq (CIA South Africa, 5).

Alternation of power, such as that in a majoritarian system, is also far less likely in a deeply divided society. It can lead to permanent exclusion of minority groups, or at least the perception that this is the case. This is a viable concern in both South Africa and Iraq. The ANC which is representative of black Africans, has won sizeable representational dominance in all three elections (1994, 1999,and 2004), with no probability that it will be challenged by another equally sized party any time soon. The Shiites have disproportionate representation in the executive branch and in parliament, leaving the Sunnis with barely any political sway. This can be deeply dangerous in terms of violence for Iraq, seeing that if Sunnis are banned from political negotiations, they will likely turn to violent opposition as a way to be heard. One Sunni assemblyman was quoted for saying that there will be “either unity, dignity and security or division and bloodshed,” showing that either the Sunnis will be included in politics fairly, or will become violent. (Morrow, 20). Meshaan Al Juburi, another fellow Sunni assemblyman, described the national government as “a government of the winners who have marginalized the Sunnis” (Harvard, 1208).

This is also dangerous in terms of policies that can be formed by the majority that are discriminate against the minority. This is especially worrisome in the Council of Representatives which oversees the Central Bank and the media. The potential for economic policies, or media propaganda to be shaped in a way to favor the Shiite majority, is a real threat. The effects of ANC dominance are already clearly seen in South Africa in terms of massive white emigration out of South Africa since 1994 when the ANC made Affirmative Action polices that restricted many economic and social opportunities for whites.

Revenue sharing is also a good tactic to encourage cooperation, since it gets rid of the incentive for a party to secede or not cooperate (Dawisha, 4). Revenue sharing in terms of oil revenue, may not be a good idea for Iraq though, and should stay in the hands of the central government. This is due to the fact that most of the oil is in the Shiite south, which according to the constitution should not matter since the revenues are to be shared, but may matter because there is no mutual threat to force sharing since the Shiites control most of the oil. If there was proportionate concentrations of oil in the Sunni center and the Kurdish north, there would be mutual threats such that revenue sharing would be induced, but with the Shiite region having most of the oil, this outcome may not happen.

Clearly the Sunnis are excluded from the constitution drafting, their voting from that point on is seen as tacit consent to a constitution they had no part in. When they abstained we acted like they were being terrorizing assholes, but in fact they had full justification not to vote. The simple act of voting can be seen as tacit consent to be governed (true, sufficient but not necessary). In addition, the people who rule them now can change the constitution at any time, in any way, with a majority. The Sunnis have absolutely no veto or say whatsoever. This democracy is severely flawed to say the least. We can expect nothing but violence until the Sunnis are given appropriate representation.

If we are touting democracy and a political voice as an alternative to terrorism, we can talk all the shit we want… but until we see power sharing in Iraq there will be widespread violence and civil war. expect nothing less. and stop talking shit about how wonderful their democracy is and how wrong Sparkie Arbuckle is. We are brought full circle to ‘The Truth’ (as ChiefRZ would say) again:

We left out the Sunnis. Anyone who knows anything about this stuff knows that a consociational or power-sharing government is the only option in an ethnically and religiously charged situation like Iraq. Its clear stability was not our goal when you take that into account.


Works Cited

Harvard. “Democracy in Iraq.” Harvard Law Review. 119 (2005): 1201-1222.

Morrow, Jonathan. “Iraq’s Constitutional Process II.” United States Institute of Peace. November 2005. United States Institute of Peace. 25 April 2006.

CIA South Africa. 2 May 2006. The World Factbook. 3 May 2006 .

CIA Iraq. 2 May 2006. The World Factbook. 3 May 2006.

Dahl, Robert. Polyarchy. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1971.

Dawisha, Adeed, and Karen Dawisha. “How To Build A Democratic Iraq.” Foreign Affairs. 82 (2003): 36-50.

Iraq Constitution. “Text of the Iraqi Constitution.” 15 April 2006.



Israeli, Raphael. The Iraq War. Portland: Sussex Academic Press, 2004.

Phillips, David. Losing Iraq. Boulder: Westview Press, 2005

Comments

Maybe we should just leave and come back later after they decide who they want to be boss, settled by the inevitable civil war. Then we’ll know who to talk to. No one there seems to want us right now, not even the government we helped set up.

Margie on November 21, 2006 at 04:39 pm

Wow, sparkle pacifist, you really proved all that shit you were screeching. Not.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 21, 2006 at 04:43 pm

Oh, and to set you straight on the point that you just can not seem to wrap your head around, “we” did not “leave out” the Sunnis. Their leadership refused to participate in the drafting of the Iraqi Constitution. “We” insisted that their rights be assured anyway.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 21, 2006 at 04:47 pm

2hotel9
if they are setting up a majority gov’t that can just change the constitution whenever they want into whatever they want what the eff is the point of helping draft it? duh. the whole thing is botched to say the least.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 21, 2006 at 04:51 pm

Just click your heels together and keep repeating that.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 21, 2006 at 04:55 pm

also 2h9 as the occupying force its our responsibility to oversee things like constitution drafting. the Sunnis were excluded. we bear responsibility to include all interested parties if we are indeed chasing democracy. hence WE excluded.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 21, 2006 at 05:05 pm
Avatar for Bat One

...as the occupying force its our responsibility to oversee things like constitution drafting. the Sunnis were excluded. we bear responsibility to include all interested parties if we are indeed chasing democracy. hence WE excluded.

Perhaps we should have just lined up all the Sunni leaders we could find and started shooting them in the head until we found a couple who agreed to join in drafting the constitution.  Of course, had we shot all the Sunnis, we wouldn’t be bothered with this silly discussion in the first place, would we.

I’ll say this for you, Sparkles, reading your little diatribe here, I am reminded just how rare it is to find someone who can wreak havoc on both rational thought and the English language in the very same paragraph.

Bat One on November 21, 2006 at 05:30 pm

Their leadership chose not to participate. We assured their rights were protected anyway. “We” did not exclude anyone.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 21, 2006 at 05:49 pm

Hey. Sorry. I was just acting on the assumption that we were going into Iraq to topple the leader and put in a democracy as a security and violence reducing measure… not a violence insuring measure. I’m a bit naive you know… listening to the President and all that.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 21, 2006 at 06:48 pm

Perhaps we should have just lined up all the Sunni leaders we could find and started shooting them in the head until we found a couple who agreed to join in drafting the constitution.  Of course, had we shot all the Sunnis, we wouldn’t be bothered with this silly discussion in the first place, would we.

Just like the Tutsi in Rwanda. That would be so sweet Bat. You’re such a genius. Why didn’t we think of that earlier. I think you guys should just be drafting our policy for us. It would go something like this: “Here you go Iran. Have fun. Please don’t rip us off on this oil. Thanks.” Sweet scenario Bat.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 21, 2006 at 07:23 pm
Avatar for Bat One

I’m a bit naive you know…

Sparkles,

If you actually failed to see the sarcasm in my “shoot all the Sunnis” comment, then, yes, perhaps you are naive.

Incidentally, the Tutsi/Hutu slaughter in Rawanda was Kofi Annan’s gig, not ours.  One of the many valid reasons to distrust the integrity, the intentions, or the competence of anything or anyone associated with the United Nations.

Bat One on November 21, 2006 at 08:41 pm
Avatar for Joel

I’ll say this for you, Sparkles, reading your little diatribe here, I am reminded just how rare it is to find someone who can wreak havoc on both rational thought and the English language in the very same paragraph.
Bat One on November 21, 2006 at 10:30 p

Help Sparkie Cope with his troubled emotional shortcomings.

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Joel on November 21, 2006 at 11:53 pm
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

Its a Democracy, with President of the National Assembly an all, ..

His name is Mahmud Dawud al-Mashhadani and President Bush is really impress about him:

On his return, Bush held a press conference during which, it seemed, he could barely contain his enthusiasm. In response to a question about progress in providing electricity, producing oil, and controlling violence, he swerved into a discussion of his encounter with the speaker of Iraq’s parliament, Mahmoud al-Mashhadani. The President didn’t seem to recall his name but readily remembered his religion:

The Sunni—I was impressed, by the way, by the Speaker—Denny Hastert told me I’d like him; Denny met with him. And I was impressed by him. He’s a fellow that had been put in prison by Saddam and, interestingly enough, put in prison by us. And he made a decision to participate in the government. And he was an articulate person. He talked about running the parliament. It was interesting to see a person that could have been really bitter talk about the skills he’s going to need to bring people together to run the parliament. And I found him to be a hopeful person.
They tell me that he wouldn’t have taken my phone call a year ago—I think I might have shared this with you at one point in time—and there I was, sitting next to the guy. And I think he enjoyed it as much as I did. It was a refreshing moment.
The incurious White House press corps never asked the obvious question: Why had the United States jailed al-Mashhadani? According to Sunnis and Shiites at the top levels of government in Iraq, al-Mashhadani was a member of, or closely associated with, two al-Qaeda-linked terrorists groups, Ansar Islam and Ansar al-Sunna. The first operated until 2003 in a no man’s land high in the mountains between Iraqi Kurdistan and Iran while the second has been responsible for some of the worse terrorist attacks on Iraq’s Shiites and Kurds. The Iraqis say they gave the Americans specific intelligence on al-Mashhadani’s affiliations with those groups and his actions in support of terrorists.

He’s really emotional about the Jews within Iraq:

In July 2006, Mashhadani told Al-Sharqiyah television that the killings and kidnappings that the fault of “Jews, Israelis and Zionists...using Iraqi money and oil to frustrate the Islamic movement in Iraq” [3] He said the perpetrators were linked to Mossad and received their orders from Tel Aviv. He warned “the day will come when we purge our country of them”.[4] In that same inteview, after being told about the kidpanning of a sunni parliement member, Mashhadani replied with “Why kidnap this Muslim woman? Instead of Tayseer, why not kidnap Margaret or Jwan?” - Margaret referring to Assyrian Christians and Jwan referring to Kurds. [5] In late July 2006 at a speech before a UN-sponsored conference on transitional justice and reconciliation in Baghdad he said “Just get your hands off Iraq and the Iraqi people and Muslim countries, and everything will be all right.” Later, in the same speech, he added, “ What has been done in Iraq is a kind of butchery of the Iraqi people.” He also added comments criticizing Israeli military action in Lebanon.[6]

aNONOMISLY on November 22, 2006 at 12:03 am
Avatar for aNONOMISLY

The Iraqis running Iraq don’t really have democracy in their blood. Our marriage with them is a marriage of inconvinience. ..lets hope it somehow works out.

aNONOMISLY on November 22, 2006 at 12:11 am

If you actually failed to see the sarcasm in my “shoot all the Sunnis” comment, then, yes, perhaps you are naive.

Bat One
Fuck yourself. I wrote a well researched, positive piece about how we can end violence and actually bring democracy to Iraq - a piece better thought out and researched than anything I have seen to date from our multi-billion dollar media or this hack-run blog. You can only call it a ‘diatribe’ and comment how we should shoot all the Sunnis in the head. Then you launch into some bullshit digression about Kofi Annan. You look like quite a little bitch now. You cheeky stupid fucks can only give it enough attention to find something to shit on. Look at the three-peated, barfed-out content on this blog that Rob steals from others or r108 steals from the euro-socialists. At least I feel slightly better that I have done my part and contributed something original that actually contains criticisms of serious real flaws with the Iraqi democracy that need to be repaired before we can justly expect a cessation of violence.
So go around and talk about how wonderful Iraq’s constitution and democracy is if you want, BUT ITS HOLLOW, BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA. ITS NO WONDER YOUR PARTY HAS BOTCHED THE ENTIRE CONFLICT AND WASTED A FEW TRILLION OF OUR DOLLARS. Its reflected in your total inability to say anything about the conflict besides, “we should shoot ‘em all in the head”. If you want to talk shit about the Demos and the stupid libs then you have a burden not to be stupid.
Its clear that no one here thinks at all. I guess what do I expect right? I’m just disappointed to say the least. I figured we could criticize the article I wrote or the situation over there… No. All you guys can offer is bullshit reassertions of lies (2H9), stupid suggestions and digressions (Bat), or psycho-educational service logos (fuck yourself Joel - and I thought I was a useless asshole on this blog!)…
Ha ha ha ha.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 03:58 am

Wow, really hit a nerve there. Leftarded morons like you get all pissed off when people turn their backs and walk away from your defeatist, submission to Islam shit. You have a good life now. Hear? Dhimmitude is going to suit you just fine.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 22, 2006 at 04:50 am

Hotel
All we have to do is give the Sunnis a veto. Its not guaranteed to end the violence over there, but it forces them into the democratic process and gives them immediate efficacy, even if it is negative (veto). Anything else is simply us instigating a civil war and picking a side… namely the side Iran is on. You guys can run your mouths all you want. It has no effect on the reality that the the ‘democracy’ in Iraq is not any just form of democracy that will work in a ethnicly or religiously charged country - it is a quick and almost guaranteed vehicle of civil war. If you can’t appreciate that then you lack a basic understanding of the things one needs to understand when it comes to discussing Iraq policy and political or social stability there. You have a better solution? Right now we are bringing Syria in more and more to appease the Sunnis instead of giving them a veto. I think that is the wrong move. All signs point to us pulling Syria and Iran into a proxy war in Iraq. I don’t think that’s going to achieve anyone’s goals - definately not ours and definately not Israels.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 06:22 am

Sparkie....

I’m actually gonna take up for you on this one. I don’t agree with what you’re trying to say, but I’m amazed that you actually gave real, dyed-in-the-wool, honest-to-God thought to it.

Totally out of character with your usual obtuse and adolescent argument-for-the-sake-of-argument meanderings.

If you keep this up some of us may actually have to consider what you say once in a while. Or not. I dunno.

But try it and see. You might find rational thought a real breakthrough. And maybe, one day, just maybe you’ll get to sit at the grownup’s table with the adults you named above, Rob, Bat, and Hotel.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on November 22, 2006 at 07:02 am

Pilgrim.
Thanks. It took a little while to chase down everything, find the S. Africa analogies, and condense it like this. I hope it at least gives an ignored perspective and I hope it helps you guys understand the shit I’m thinking about when I rail on BS propaganda about how great the new Iraqi constitution or democracy is. I just don’t think its that great at all. I think its prolonging the violence. I guess we’ll see if rebuilding the infrastructure and picking a side of the civil war and helping them win actually ends the violence. Naturally I’m skeptical. The whole thing is a huge mess. This is just the best suggestion I can offer.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 07:15 am

Pilgrim.
Thanks.

You’re welcome, but don’t get used to it.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on November 22, 2006 at 07:23 am

The real(as opposed to idealistic) evaluation of the present situation in Iraq(the real one, not the false version pushed on us by the lying MSM) is to compare it to what was there before.  A totalitarian, murderous dictator enforcing his minority rule by murder, torture, imprisonment and dismemberment, who imposed his will on 80% of the population for the benefit of the other 20%.  The fundamental flaw in Sparkie’s approach is that he is saying that since it isn’t perfect, we shouldn’t be doing it. 
Human beings are not perfect, and so a perfect social and political system simply will never exist.
No matter how it is now in Iraq, it is much better, especially for the formerly oppressed 80%, than it was before.  Could it be even better?  Hell, yes, but in three short years, the improvement has been astounding.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 22, 2006 at 10:18 am

R108
You at least understand the criticism and see that there are certain hypocricies in the system we have set up there when one contemplates the simple fact that our ultimate goal in bringing democracy to the ME is to give terrorists political means to be heard in order to avert violence. Bringing a system that denies this simple stated goal seems foolish to me.
Many people are harsh on the Sunnis for good reason, but I feel we have an obligation to provide them with alternatives to violence, our stated goal, or we are wasting our efforts. Anyone who studies transition to democracy in ethnicly or religiously charged and segregated countries knows this is the only type of democracy that stands a chance of working out in the long term for Iraq.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 10:51 am

...the simple fact that our ultimate goal in bringing democracy to the ME is to give terrorists political means to be heard in order to avert violence.

I consider that to be a side benefit.  The real goal in Iraq is to bring it and its govt into the 21st century.  Iraq is in the center of the ME, and having a modern state there is part of the long range strategy to eliminate terrorism by modernizing the ME.  I don’t think anything that accomplishes this is a wasted effort.  If they are fat and happy and free, they will not be so attracted to violence.  I think you want the effect before you establish the cause.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 22, 2006 at 11:22 am

Yep. Well I guess there’s a difference between bringing modernity to the ME and bringing democracy then isn’t there? I thought we were talking about democracy?!?

Nice dodge though.

I think you want the effect before you establish the cause.

what does the above refer to specifically?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 11:43 am

Sparkie: Establishing a self-determined govt is the first step after deposing a dictator.  Sorry I had to tell you that.  You were talking about democracy, btw.  I don’t have to accept your limitations.  You set up “democracy” as a straw man, then criticize because the govt they have isn’t perfect yet.
The effect we want is a modern country, of which a representative govt is a part.  The cause is removing the old dictator.  You have them reversed.  You want the effect(a modern country with a representative govt) before the cause(deposing the dictator and transitioning into a representative govt) is completed.  The present stage in Iraq is transitional, and you petulantly demand a finished product.  Get it now?


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 22, 2006 at 11:56 am

r108
..yes I do get it. It will remain ‘transitional’ as long as we leave the ‘democracy’ they have now in place. I am not confused or rushing anything at all. When we set up a democracy without a minority veto we absolutely fucked our chances of having

a modern country, of which a representative govt is a part.

That’s all I’m saying. I’m not mistaking cause and effect or anything you might accuse me of. If you think the Sunnis can be fattened and appeased without having a voice in their own government then you are just like all the other people who have totally botched this entire war… completely out-of-touch with reality and lacking the mental tools to find an appropriate solution. Perle, Adelman, Rummy et all… the door hit them before they even ‘got in’ apparently… in the head and hard.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 12:07 pm

I’m not mistaking cause and effect…

Then why are you complaining about a fledgling govt that is just emerging in a nation ruled by hereditary monarchy, then totalitarian dictatorship for its entire history?  You are judging it a failure before its even had a chance to get started.  For Iraq, and form of representative govt is revolutionary.
Your assessment of the war is just wrong.  You obviously don’t understand the realities of war, either.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 22, 2006 at 01:28 pm
Avatar for Joel

I thought I was a useless asshole on this blog!
Sparkie “Fuck The Whole World” Arbuckle on November 22, 2006 at 08:58 am

I’m glad you finally admitted it. You are a useless asshole. But the first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one...so it’s a good first step sparks...now only 11 more to go.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving
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Joel on November 23, 2006 at 12:14 am

It’s Thanksgiving Joel. Ease up a bit Man. Even Sparkie is a human being.


Nowadays falsehood stands erect and truth lies prostrate on the ground.

Bezu Fache on November 23, 2006 at 12:18 am

Happy Thanksgiving gopers


“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

realitybasedbob on November 23, 2006 at 04:31 am
Avatar for ellinas

Good job Sparkie Arbuckle. You have done your work. As usual the “gang” here at say anything is acting like a virtual dictatorship. They have alleged intellectuals, not to defend their positions, but to attack and dismiss those they disagree with them. They have hit men and personal attackers. They embrace assholes that agree with them and offer no substance or benefit to the discussion. And above all quite a few of them are intellectualy dishonest and incapable of agreement with their perceived “adversaries” even when the “adversary” is right. Sometimes some of them even threaten others with bodily harm and when that happens their “alleged” intelectuals hide and say nothing.
Other than the above, HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL THAT POST HERE AT SAY ANYTHING.

ellinas on November 23, 2006 at 04:35 am

Sparkie.....

A well thought out argument and a good debate surrounding it are the spice of life. Like I said earlier, I thought you presented a good argument here. You’re wrong, of course, but it was presented well. Good stuff. Keep it up.

As far as the “assholes” on this site go, elinas, you seem to have your ass on your shoulders about them. Maybe that’s because you had it handed to you by several of those “assholes” lately, including this humble specimen.

If you can’t present and respond to an honest argument perhaps you should post on some of the left wing sites. Huffington’s blog is full of shallow name callers like you.

We’ll miss you.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on November 23, 2006 at 04:51 am

You’re wrong, of course

Nice try Pil. How am I wrong? What is wrong with my essay? The more time goes by the more it will become clear that I am totally right.
r108 suggests we are just beginning this. He’s right, but what he obviously doesn’t appreciate is if we proceed like this we are simply picking a side and fighting their civil war with them. Until we give the Sunnis a democratic means to voice their opinion, we are not only being hypocrites, we are continuing to kill people we ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN KILLING. The USA prides itself on its history and fighting in order to gain political self-determination. I don’t need to explain why the Sunnis are justified in taking up arms - We have set up a ‘democracy’ there that is totally botched. The implications go beyond Iraq. Every other country we have any desire to prevent radical Islam from taking over need only point at our botched job in Iraq and rally the minorities against us. Putin will be able to cite the failure of democracy in Iraq soon as he departs from anything even remotely resembling democracy and we kiss his ass in a baby blue kimono.
2Hotel9, R108, and you (Pil) are totally fucking wrong and totally fucking clueless. It is a huge mess. Our being there had potential. We could have set up a government custom fitted to the ethnic and religious tensions in the country. WE DID NOT. We set up a government where the people who have all the oil can make all the laws and change the constitution at any point in time. You stupid, party-line TARTS sit around talking about how fucking great we are and how fucking great Iraq’s democracy is, BUT ITS HOLLOW, TOTALLY WRONG; BULLSHIT. You guys then amount to nothing more than propagandists who’s unintentional goal is making democracy look totally inviable to the entire world. We are making ourselves look like greedy, violent fucks. Anyone who looks at the mess we’ve created and hears us touting the democracy we’ve created over there knows that we are totally full of shit and that we put oil deal-cutters into power and put everyone else in a powerless position where their only recourse is violence. So no, Pil, I am not wrong… you simply lack the understanding or perspective to appreciate it. R108 admits it here:

You obviously don’t understand the realities of war, either.

He’s trying to drag me into it with him - “either” my ass. Everything I wrote here IS DISTURBINGLY CLEAR. Read the essay. Read the comments. Think about it. It doesn’t take a fucking rocket scientist.
PS - Fuck you Joel - you’re a cunt. ...and that’s putting it lightly. Although we are all proud of your clip art capabilities. Someday maybe you’ll even be able to ride on the long bus with the other kids.
PPS - It ain’t the Jews Rob, its us.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 25, 2006 at 07:52 am

Sparkie: Your argument is certainly long and detailed, but it is based on false premises conditioned on your emotional attachment to attacking the President and the US.  That is why you are wrong.  Your premise seems to be that everything should be perfect in Iraq by now, and since it isn’t, it will never be any good at all.  That is just silly, but you persist with the same argument, over and over again, as if that somehow makes your erroneous conclusion right by weight of words.  That one just doesn’t work.  In fact, the longer you persist, the more wrong you become.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 25, 2006 at 08:00 am

Your argument is certainly long and detailed, but it is based on false premises conditioned on your emotional attachment to attacking the President and the US.

This is a fucking lie. Maybe you are biased by some of the things that I wrote in the past, but this accusation is totally unrelated to this post and the resulting comments. Thanks for your weak attempt to discredit me asshole, but I actually researched this one. I would write it no matter who’s president and I have no emotional attachment to attacking the US. I’m merely not willing to stick up for it with lies and by intentionally deluding myself like you and the others on this blog are willing to do.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 25, 2006 at 08:11 am

Which premises are false? Pick some.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 25, 2006 at 08:11 am

I wrote:

Your premise seems to be that everything should be perfect in Iraq by now, and since it isn’t, it will never be any good at all.

I guess you just reacted emotionally, and didn’t read what I wrote.  Your schoolboy namecalling doesn’t add any luster to your already sagging credibility, either.
If you can’t emotionally handle disagreement, this isn’t the right place for you.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 25, 2006 at 08:15 am

r108
No I gave you an opportunity to pick a a real premise instead of spewing bullshit like you normally do. Nice strawman. I never said everything should or could be perfect there now.

Also. Pilgrim.
What’s wrong with my argument besides ‘You’re wrong’. Feel me in. You’re just following the other sheep. Think about it. What’s wrong.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 25, 2006 at 08:25 am

Sparkie: I hope the third time is the charm, because your lack of comprehension is becoming boring.
You seem to think that, because the beginning of a very long transition from dictatorship to democracy is not looking good right now, it will never be OK, and that “our experiment with democracy in Iraq” is a failure.  I think it might be 50 years before Iraq is a functioning democracy, and we will be long gone from the region, except for doing business before that happens.
I don’t know if you have ever embarked on a long project that required long term committment in your life, but it’s not about bailing out when things get rough.  I regard the establishment of a modern state in the ME as being a very worthwhile project; in fact, it is the key to succeeding against Islamofascism.  We have no fallback position, IMO.  We might as well persevere.  Complaining and finding fault are not the key to success in anything, and that seems to me to be what you are doing here.


Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

Obama: more experienced than Bristol Palin

robert108 on November 25, 2006 at 08:31 am
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