Say Anything Blog

Samantha:

“It is a shame indeed that it is a government official, rather than church members themselves, that is asking for transparency in church finances.”

Unless the Congress has credible evidence that specific ministries are guilty of fraud or some other crime, then this investigation is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment. This is an Unconstitutional infringement on the Freedom of Religious worship of the people giving money as a part of their worship. This is an insidious and destructive attempt to violate the First Amendment, an attempt to cause all Christian ministries to adhere to government established speech and action and to eventually be approved by the government.

If there is any credible evidence that a specfic ministry has committed fraud or some other crime, it is a matter for the Justice Department to investigate those crimes if they violate federal law and follow the law if prosecution is waranted.

Had Christians been a bit more careful with their money and held their leaders to higher standards than they have so far we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Who am I and who are you to say how these people should give their money or if they should demand financial transparency from these ministries? I agree that any Christian should submit all giving to prayer and if the minister is living a lifestyle above that of the average Christian, demand that these ministers explain how they use the money they receive and how such lifestyles are in harmony with Scripture; or they should seek God’s leading and find a ministry that appears to not only preach the Gospel as it is in Scripture, but makes all their financial dealings available to every member in detail. But, if they choose not to, why is that your business or mine.

I am against the Prosperity Doctrine and any minister living in financial conditions above that of average Christians, as the wealthy cannot understand and minister to the needs of people living normal lives. I believe God should and will bring these false prophets under His Divine Rod of correction, if necessary, exposing their deeds, Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind as a case in point. But, unless there is credible evidence a crime has been committed at which point the Justice Department or local prosecutors investigate and prosecute as deemed appropriate, then it is absolutely no business or yours, mine or the federal, state or local government.

While I join you in your opposition to these mega-churches and their financial dealings, and would encourage every Christian to be wise and avoid false prophets; but like hate crimes legislation, these violations of the First Amendment always creep towards more control of every human being’s thoughts and actions and so I must oppose such unconstitutional government infringment upon the Fisrt Amendment.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Despite the fact that Nieman and I and JustinB disagree on certain doctrines, Neiman has this right.  It’s no business of the Government who I give money to.  I’ll give to whomever I want.  I don’t give to the Red Cross.  I do give to the Salvation Army.  I have given at vaious times to Copeland, Meyer, Hinn and Dollar. It’s who I believe is going to use my money for things I think are important.

If I am worried about how they did or didn’t spend it that’s my problem and the government has no biz sticking their nose in it.

I won’t be as rude as all this, but nearly everyone who gets bent out of shape about this is not a significant giver to ANY ministry.  It’s religious bigotry. If you would, what percentage of your income did you give last year?  Mine was 15%.  I’m guessing JustinB and Nieman are at least tithers based on what they write. 

In past decades the main criticism of the Catholic Church was that they had too much money and how they did or didn’t spend it like some people thought they should.

Now it’s Televangelists. 

Who’s next? 

Grassley should lay off.  I’ll stop giving if I decide to or not.

I might send Creflo Dollar some extra money because he had the gonads to tell Grassley to stuff it. 

Good for you Creflo!

[b]Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this could be their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

Isn’t it all about their church’s tax status?

I know when I worked for that shyster Rev. Schuller, there was quite the dust up over his tax free business ventures. The studio I built for him, if memory serves, was the back breaking straw.

And Gene, if the gov. discovers these good reverends have run afoul of our laws, should they not be punished?

Who is next?

Snake oil lobbyist to arms!

Excuse me, you were saying?

I have given at vaious times to Copeland, Meyer, Hinn and Dollar

Gene,

I’m truly sorry.

And Gene, if the gov. discovers these good reverends have run afoul of our laws, should they not be punished?

Try reading more slowly, you will read in my comments and I think Gene would agree, if there is credible evidence of law breaking, it goes to the appropriate authority, federal, state or local, for investigation and if warranted prosecution. It is not about defending law breaking, but defending the First Amendment and its prohibition againt the government passing any legislation or doing anything to restrict religious worship. Once you get a small breach in the wall keeping the government out of religious matters (not keeping religious influence out of government), then the government can, like any socialist or communist state, say which churches and teachings and ministers are lawful or not. Grassley is clearly violating The First Amendment.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Gene:

I have given at various times to Copeland, Meyer, Hinn and Dollar

To Gene from HG,

I’m truly sorry.

We give tithes amd offerings to Christ through various ministries, it is all His money, when we give we also surrender all power to Him about what happens to that money. God blesses us because of the attitudes of our hearts in giving and He will deal with servants that misuse His money. If Gene gave to ministries and later sees that the ministry does not seem to be acting to according to God’s Will, he need not worry about it or feel cheated, He gave of the money God gave to Him through his labors to Christ and Gene will be spiritually blessed no matter what happens to that money. We should feel genuine sorrow for the false ministers, they will give account to God.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman,

I’m very impressed and thanks.  You have it exactly right.  We may not agree on the prosperity gospel per se, but we give as unto the Lord.  IF they do dumb things with it we have acted in faith.

There are “Charities” and “Ministries” that by the Holy Spirit’s nudge I won’t give to an others I will.  He, the Holy Spirit, funds those ministries by the obedience of his people.  Last winter out of the clear blue sky I was told by the Spirit to give several hundred dollars to the Lutheran Church.  I did. 

I just wait to see what HE wants to do and then I obey.  I tithe to my local church and give offerings to others. 

I’ve never missed a dime. 

If all Christians had the profound understanding that you do, that we give as unto the Lord, they would just give and smile. 

That’s the way it’s supposed to work.

Thanks Neiman

Blessings on you.

[b]Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this could be their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

Try reading more slowly, you will read in my comments and I think Gene would agree, if there is credible evidence of law breaking, it goes to the appropriate authority, federal, state or local, for investigation and if warranted prosecution.

And just how would one amass credible evidence of law breaking? ….ahhhh yes, an investigation.

It is not about defending law breaking, but defending the First Amendment and its prohibition againt the government passing any legislation or doing anything to restrict religious worship.

From what I have read, religious worship is not under investigation, how the money collected from religious worshipers is spent is under investigation. The first amendment clearly is not being violated, tax laws might be though.

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I Timothy 6:5

Excuse me, you were saying?

RBB: I will try and use simple words, maybe that will help you in this matter:

1) If anyone raises suspicion (belief someone broke the law), then it is, depending upon the appropriate (best) jurisdiction (authority) the job of a local, state or federal prosecutor to investigate the claims to determine if any credible evidence exists to justify a prosecution. It is not the role of congress to investigate crimes by private citizens, they are not a law enforcement agency.
2) “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. . .” The role of congress would be to investigate whether or not any new laws should be proposed to deal with a particular matter. However, and this is the critical issue: the Congress is Prohibited, that means, the United States Constitution forbids Congress from proposing or passing any laws that prevents the free exercise of the religious faith.
3) Giving of tithes and offerings is a form of worship, a required exercise of religious faith. Therefore, Grassley is in clear violation of the First Amendment. He is investigating charges that are under the authority of one of several law enforcement agencies, and he is deliberately, knowingly violating the Constitution by holding hearings to propose legislation that might place some kinds of restrictions on religious financial giving or that prohibit use of that money in some manner.

No one has suggested that the appropriate law enforcement agency should not investigate specific allegations of any crimes committed by a ministry and if warranted initiate prosecutions, what I am defending is the First Amendment. Grassley and anyone in Congress playing any role in this matter are guilty of violating the Constitution and they should have to defend that before the voters.

Please memorize this:  “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. . .” There is no reason whatsoever to hold hearings if the Congress is prohibited from passing any laws concerning religious faith - NONE! That means the Congress CANNOT, MUST NOT, SHALL NOT pass any laws of any kind restricting free exercise of religious faith and therefore any such hearings are, by their very nature unconstitutional in nature.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Bummer that all six groups didn’t tell Grassley to get lost.  Reality here is that Grassley is not a DA, and therefore has NO RIGHT to demand that these groups provide their financial records.  Period.

It’s called “federalism,” RBB.

I think it is High Time that men of God STAND UP and speak the truth in love in response to what the Bible says about proper Christian conduct and how a Man of God should be an example to the Church and the unbeliever.First of all I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God,That Jesus was born of a Virgin,That Jesus died on the cross of Calvary to provide redemption from sin,and that Jesus rose on the 3rd. day.And I also believe that Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY in which a man can find Salvation and eternal life and apart from faith in Jesus Christ men will be judged by God who is Holy to an eternity in Hell for their wickedness and sin.I also believe what the Lord said in
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Only those who are Born Again will be saved form God’s wrath and eternal torment in hell.

Secondly the Bible clearly states that we are to consider all things by the Word of God so that we know how the Man of God should conduct himself.And the word of God says in 2 Timothy 2:15:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the word of truth is what we are to use to conduct our lifes.And if one studies God word they will find In 2nd Timothy 3:16-17: it states
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Gods word is profitable for many wonderful things and here in particular 4 Things.
1-For doctrine 2-For reproof 3-For correction
4-For instruction in righteousness

And these 4 Things are provided by God to us for a reason because without sound doctrine,without reproof,without correction and without instruction in rightousness
Then v:17 would not be correct which says:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So when some suggest that someone is judging by agreeing with what Senator Grassley is bringing out in the open about these Pastors lifestyles.
It has been reported in the US press that some of these 6 ministries Pastors under public scrunity who are Benny Hinn,Keneth Copeland,Crefflo Dollar Joyce Myers and others, that they fly in Cessana Jets,drive Rolls Royces and Bentley Convertables,live in Mansions worth from 2 Million Dollars up to 10 Million Dollars,stay in Presidentalial Suites for a sum of one Thousand Dollars up to Ten Thousand Dollars a night and have a Salary of $500,000 up to 1 Million, or 2 Million US Dollars .One of these 6 Pastors when asked on CNN IF THEY BELIEVED JESUS WOULD AGREE TO THEM HAVING A ROLLS ROYCE? HE SAID “YES Jesus would agree”

So when we look at what is taking place with Senator Grassley,s requested inquiry on ministries such as the above and in light of the scandal at Oral Roberts University where as even the President Richard Roberts resigned a couple of weeks back after his accountant informed the world that he was instructed to “cook the books” by Richard Roberts himself and the accountant was Fired.

And when you take into account that these 6 ministries teach false teachings that I Quote..
“We are all little gods” and that we have the power to create through our words,and the Properity Gospel.
Now if anyone agrees with what these above Word of Faith preachers teach,then let me ask you 3 questions.
#-1- Are you a little god?
#-2-Do you have the power to create by the words you speak?
#-3- Are you the Creator?
If you honestly answer no to any of these questions then I sincerely suggest that you check out the teachings of the above Word of Faith teachers because that is exactly what they teach.Check it out for yourself because that is not what the bible teaches at all.
Now perhaps one is being judgemental if you think that Doctrine Reproof,Correction and Instruction in Rightousness is not an appropiate measure to be guided by not only in these 6 Pastors ministries but in any Christian ministries.
And let me ask have you really dug into what The Word of Faith Movement teaches?I suggest that any one reading this finds out and become aware of what these ministries teach.The choice is yours.

It’s about time that MEN OF GOD STAND UP and speak the word of truth in love and through Gods Word find Doctrine and Reproof false teachers and bring Correction so that people are not mislead and bring Instruction in righteousness so that people wiil be aware of what is happening.

I am an ordained Pentecostal minister in Regent Park -St. Jamestown Toronto.And I have a duty as a watchman of the church God has called me to lead.Here are some scriptures to that warn us of the very things we are talking about.

2nd.Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

1 Timothy 4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1rst Timothy 6:3-11 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4: He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5: Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6: But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7: For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8: And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9: But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11: But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1rst Peter 5:2: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3: Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

If anyone would like to discuss what My views are on any of the above statements or on the bible in general,please feel free to respond to this email… Pastor Mike Grady

I think that the church should be transparent in its financial performance that may otherwise take mafia!