Say Anything Blog

Matt, do you get all your science information from Lyndon LaRouche?

From 21st Century Science & Technology Magazine: “21st Century Science & Technology magazine challenges the assumptions of modern scientific dogma, including quantum mechanics, relativity theory, biological reductionism...”

Ha! You prove Clinton’s point that Republicans are both hostile to and ignorant of science. Good job.

Now excuse me while I return to working on my doctoral thesis—I mean, my modern scientific dogma.

Josh did you know the GWB didn’t end stem cell research, it’s going on without federal funding.

So what diseases are they treating with Embryonic Stem cells?

I read in Luddites Today that diseases are being cured every day with adult stem cells.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Josh uses the typical leftie smear tactic of guilt by association; his charge has nothing to do with the reality that ESC aren’t doing anything, while ASC are already curing people; bone marrow transplants are a good example.
Of course, all the President has done is to limit taxpayer money being spent on this boondoggle.  Private research doesn’t want to waste money on this blind alley, so why should the taxpayers be forced to pay for it?

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Robert108:

Josh uses the typical leftie smear tactic of guilt by association; his charge has nothing to do with the reality that ESC aren’t doing anything, while ASC are already curing people; bone marrow transplants are a good example.

Exactly so!

Josh is using the well known degrees of separation argument (in which it is well known that by association you can start any one person, then finding an acquaintance of his (one-degree), then an acquaintance of that acquaintance (2 degrees) and so forth...and by six degrees you can link almost any two people on the entire earth.

Put another way, it’s one of those arguments that “always works”.  Of course,it is a childish and logically flawed ad hominem styled argument regardless of the associations that Josh can link to....

I disagree that ESC’s have no value, however, so I disagree with the “boondoggle” characterization to the extent that it suggests any such thing.  They are terribly important to study from pure basic research standpoint.  I just think it is foolish to tout them as some cure-all.

As I’ve pointed out, there are numerous problems with.  One is that you need to harvest thousands of embryos to treat one individual.  A second is that the donor stem cells will in general not be compatible with the patient which is highly problematic.  The third is they are truly totipotent, which in practice leads to many problems. For example, they can “go crazy” and start producing bone, teeth or even hair. Obviously this would be highly problematic if the implant were e.g., performed along your spinal cord to correct nerve damage…

More specialized adult stem cells from the patient suffer from none of these problems, and will I think ultimately be the “weapon of choice” for many conditions, including, dare I say, old age.

I just think it is foolish to tout them as some cure-all.

In fact, that is exactly how they are being “sold” by the lefties.  That’s the “boondoggle” part.  Pure research is quite another thing, but those who are promoting this research(and bashing anyone who doesn’t want our money spent on it) are doing so on the claim that it’s going to cure ever ill known to man.  Remember John Edwards’ hyperbolic statement about Christopher Reeve “getting up from his wheelchair”?

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

That should be: “every ill known to man.”

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Robert108, I separate out what the scientists are doing from what the anti-science lefties who are distorting the science to meet their political agendas are doing.  So “boondoggle” would apply in my mind only to federal or state mandated funding levels for ESC.  Since at least at the federal level, there is no such mandate, it’s not a boondoggle.

“Yet another left-wing scam” would be appropriate of course, referring to the “cures every ill known to man” BS they keep pushing with respect to ESC.

Speaking of which, Josh:  What area is your Ph.D. in?

Carrick: Once again, the boondoggle is the phony claims that are being made in order to bash the President for not spending our money on this research at the federal level.  I’m specifically referring to the claims that it will cure everything, if we would only just open our pockets.  That’s the boondoggle.  It has nothing to do with real research, it’s simply another enlargement of govt, with the attendant lack of results.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Josh uses the typical leftie smear tactic of guilt by association

Hold on a minute.  It is a legitimate tactic to point out the source of an opponent in a debate. 

Now, as most scientists not reading from the Democrat’s talking point book would agree, it is adult stem cells, not embryonic ones, that have proven most effective in curing disease.

Most scientist who are not reading Republican talking points would agree that adult stem cells have limits and embryonic stem cells hold more promise.

Most scientist who are not reading Republican talking points would agree that adult stem cells have limits and embryonic stem cells hold more promise.

I think you’re referring to the scientists who would like comfortable employment until retirement with no expectation of results.

But it’s quite the opportunity for you Hawk.  If you invest in your money you’ll hold the patents and clean up in the market.

BTW:  There is a significant amount of ESC research going on in the US and other places.  California and I believe Massachusetts are doing so.  Frankly I don’t think that they’ll find anything but I could be wrong. 

So you can’t even say that the basic research isn’t being done.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

It is a legitimate tactic to point out the source of an opponent in a debate.

Only leftie “ethics” would consider a general assualt on a specific study to be “legitimate”.  It’s an obvious smear tactic, absent any evidence that specific study is flawed.  Duh.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Hawk:

Hold on a minute.  It is a legitimate tactic to point out the source of an opponent in a debate.

But it’s not legitimate to disqualify a study simply by association.  That is a grade-school tactic used by some on the left, to the extent that even many on the left describe today’s left-wing as being run by children.

Hawk:

Most scientist who are not reading Republican talking points would agree that adult stem cells have limits and embryonic stem cells hold more promise.

What a child.  You apparently need “talking points” to make your arguments for you, so you naturally assume the rest of us do as well.

We don’t, of course.

We form judgments based on the best information available.  And the facts on ESC versus ASC are exactly as I have described, and are not based on any right- or left-wing ideological considerations.

Speaking for myself I don’t have the expertise to judge the merits of ESC research. 

On the other hand I know enough to tell the proponents of massive funding of embryonic stem cells are full of BS.

Therefore I’m against funding ESC research.  Now if a reasonable person like Carrick were to explain what a reasonable amount of basic research might do I’d be willing to consider that.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

We form judgments based on the best information available.  And the facts on ESC versus ASC are exactly as I have described, and are not based on any right- or left-wing ideological considerations.

You mentioned all of the problems with Embryonic stem cells and none of the promise.  You mentioned none of the limitations on adult stem cells.  You’re whole spiel was a talking point.  Along with the original author’s post.  Hillary is right.  George Bush has always been anti-science.  He has scientific reports edited to fit his policy.

There’s no indication that Embryonic Stem Cells will ever be useful. 

That doesn’t mean they won’t but to me it seems like a poor bet.

All we’re getting from your side is a bunch of wild promises that can’t be backed up.

We have limited resources and they should be used where there is the most promise.

But if you disagree go ahead and invest your money.  It’s still a free country.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Hawk:

You mentioned all of the problems with Embryonic stem cells and none of the promise.

You’re whole spiel was a talking point

LOL

These are talking points you little child, they’re just frigging facts.

You keep making lame and absurd attempts at argumentation, all while never bringing an actual fact to the table.  Do you realize what a fucking moron this makes you look at.

In any case, what if I said were a talking point?  As long as it is scientifically valid, it’s still legitimate to state.  The fact that you think that labeling it a “talking point” some how even shoots it down just labels you as a mental midget.

Hillary is right.  George Bush has always been anti-science.  He has scientific reports edited to fit his policy.

OK.... now this.  This is a talking point.  LMAO.

Like all good Marxists, Hawk accuses everybody else of the sins that he commits himself.

Carrick: Once you get past the personal attacks, most lefties have nothing else.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

TW:

Therefore I’m against funding ESC research.  Now if a reasonable person like Carrick were to explain what a reasonable amount of basic research might do I’d be willing to consider that.

Well that’s pretty easy, as long as you stay away from claims of clinical significance.

The main research advantage of ESC is their totipotency.  This means you can study the mechanisms that are responsible for changes in cell morphology. 

Practically speaking, this means things like understanding how cancers form and spread, as well as how certain birth defects arise, how they might be prevented or even treated for.

And of course like all basic research, all the benefits won’t be known until after the fact.  Otherwise it wouldn’t be called “basic research” but rather “technology development”.

Anyway that shill for the Republican Party, the National Institutes of Health has a pretty decent FAQ up. There are also some NPR Science Friday’s that cover a lot of this…

Robert108:

Carrick: Once you get past the personal attacks, most lefties have nothing else.

From my experience, Hawk has very little to start with.  I just have very little patience for partisan toadies.

You’re acting like I wasn’t aware of what “totipotency” was. 

He’s a Finnish guy that plays for the Red Wings, right.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Carrick: Isn’t the totipotency of the ESC sourced in the fact that they are humans, with a complete sequence of human DNA?  Isn’t that the 800 pound gorilla in the room?

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

Robert108,, most cells contain complete copies of human DNA.  The one exception to this is red blood cells.  So the short answer would be “no” to that.  Totipotency is unique to embryonic stem cells, other stem cells such as neural stem cells are multipotent but not totipotent.

Actually, if you had let me pick my favorite 800 pound gorilla, it’s that in the future embryonic stem cell research will get less-and-less frequent.  Let me explain:

One of the ironies of the Bush moratorium on new stem cell lines is that it has expanded funding to search for ways to turn less-specialized cells into stem cells.  At some point, we may be able to create totipotent cells from more specialized ones, and the decision rooted in ethics to not “take the easy route” has actually spurred on this type of research.

One of the ironies of the Bush moratorium on new stem cell lines is that it has expanded funding to search for ways to turn less-specialized cells into
stem cells.

It’s not an irony at all; it has been his intention all along not to take the easy way out by forcing taxpayers to fund this crap without having a choice in the matter, and I’m glad you realize it has succeeded.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

As if to illustrated Carrick’s point with more immediacy, there is this from London’s Guardian newspaper:

A British research team led by the world’s leading heart surgeon has grown part of a human heart from stem cells for the first time. If animal trials scheduled for later this year prove successful, replacement tissue could be used in transplants for the hundreds of thousands of people suffering from heart disease within three years…

By using chemical and physical nudges, the scientists first coaxed stem cells extracted from bone marrow to grow into heart valve cells…

Growing a suitably-sized piece of tissue from a patient’s own stem cells would take around a month but he said that most people would not need such individualised treatment. A store of ready-grown tissue made from a wide variety of stem cells could provide good matches for the majority of the population.

And not an embryo in sight!  Imagine that!

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”