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Sunday, January 14, 2007

Sparkie’s Thoughts on the Main Institutions of I.R. and the Preservation of the States System

In international relations today the most powerful institution is balance of power (BOP). International law (IL) and diplomacy (D) have taken a back seat to the continual making and remaking of economic and political alliances to resist the dominant powers. BOP prevents weak states from being conquered or plundered by the strong (Brown 244). BOP’s goal is to allow states to survive and prevent the transformation of the global states system into an empire. This is similar to the goals of D and IL, institutions that also influence behavior between states, but D and IL are only able to become more influential in international relations when the most powerful states consent to IL, choose to engage in D, or are forced by a balance of power to recognize IL or to partake in D. Today, because powerful countries do not consent to IL or choose to engage in D, BOP is the default institution of international relations that keeps the most powerful countries in check and preserves the state system.

The BOP within the states system is an institution or set of norms and structures and not a specific administration – it is based on, and results from, the assumption that international law has no final global authority. BOP must be objective; it must actually exist, in addition to being subjective, or being perceived as existing by the people (Bull 99). A simple BOP between two states requires that the two states be fairly evenly matched in power, while a complex BOP can involve many inequities in power. Multiple lesser states can align to balance out a disproportionately large, powerful state – complex BOP is seen as being more stable than a simple two state BOP (98). When BOP is an institution used in international relations, it can allow D and IL to develop and gain power in the global states system. BOP can be seen as a default means to preserve the global states system when D and IL have failed. While peace might be a goal of IL or D, BOP’s goal is not peace as war is often required to maintain BOP. Naturally, BOP tends to operate in the favor of the great powers because preponderant states are not restricted from violating the rights of other states by IL or D (99-104).

During the cold war there was a simple BOP between the U.S. and Russia – mutual nuclear deterrence, space exploration, propaganda, alliances, and intelligence served to balance out the two superpowers. In the current world states system there is a complex, contrived BOP - the U.S. is clearly the world superpower and it is balanced by economic and political networks that join the power of many, less powerful states together in a variety of alliances. Some of the lesser states, without IL to protect or preserve their status, must use diplomacy with other states and make calculated economic and political alliances in order to buttress themselves against the influence of superpowers like the U.S. - Power within the states system used to be influenced by things like army size, population, and territory; but now greater power is accorded to nuclear power, intelligence power, the centers of capital accumulation, and those who control desired natural resources such as petroleum (Smith 300). Countries like Iran, Russia, Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia are islands of exception to the rules of markets and trade sweeping the world. In this way capitalism and market fundamentalism have their own, well-funded opposition and a balance of power occurs, joining unlikely allies to balance out the concentrations of money and power that result from free-market economics (Washigton Post Nov. 20, 2006). As countries like China and the U.S. increase in power and consumption, the countries that provide raw materials and energy also experience an increase in power that can enable them to protect themselves and others – in addition their power is balanced against the larger powers since good relations must be maintained for successful economic trade.

If one looks at the recent Iraq conflict one can see that the U.S. was not inhibited by any IL and rejected D because Saddam was unwilling to surrender certain autonomies. The U.S. was preponderant and it occupied Iraq and installed a majority government. The current U.S. administration has also voiced displeasure with states like Iran and Syria yet, because of Iran and Syria’s alliances elsewhere, many countries have voiced strong disapproval of further US meddling in the Middle East. If one looks back only to 1989, one finds the U.S. administration tolerating Saddam’s human rights abuses, which arguably violated IL, in exchange for stability and economic relations. Although we have entirely reversed our feelings about Saddam at this point, the U.S. still favors BOP over IL as the predominant institution in international relations.

International law (IL) exists as an institution of international relations that Bentham believed exists between states but not above them as there is no leviathan. IL would apply to states and other non-state actors, but some, like the Austinian view, contend that there is no IL. The Austinian view holds there is only international morality, because there is no enforcement of IL. Hobbes believes that where there is no common power, there is no international law (Bull 124). IL’s ability to counter the material base of power and interest is limited (Smith 446). Even without enforceability, IL can work if the most powerful states recognize IL and consent to be regulated by it. Often it may become difficult to enforce IL if the most powerful state is in violation. One criticism of BOP is that it is at odds with IL – it relies on mutual deterrence, war, and alliances in order to maintain the states system. BOP might rationalize a war, one that would otherwise be against international law, if it is preventing a certain state from becoming too powerful. Perhaps the state’s increase in power will be victimless and won’t involve territorial or sovereignty violations – even though the state would be protected under IL theory, it is vulnerable to war in a BOP scenario. Despite being at odds with IL, BOP also is needed to maintain IL (Bull 104). If the powers are not balanced among the states, if there isn’t ‘common power’, there is little incentive for some states to acknowledge or abide by IL (Bull 107).

Today one can see that there are many examples of un-enforced violations of IL. Powerful states are able to tolerate violations of IL from some states if there are economic or political incentives to do so. Examples of U.S. allies whose human rights violations have been tolerated by the U.S. would include: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Indonesia, Israel, Kazakhstan, and many others (Smith 301). States and citizens who should be protected by IL often are not for a variety of reasons. Examples of this would include the genocide of the Tutsi in Rwanda, human rights abuses in China, the current genocide in Sudan, and Israel’s conduct in the Lebanon conflict. Sudan and Rwanda both hold little power and are of little economic or strategic benefit to the more powerful countries. In contrast, Israel and China are powerful and are protected by other powerful states so their abuses become difficult to enforce.

Bull defines diplomacy as a system of communication or negotiation; it manages international relations through political actors communicating and exchanging information. Inherent in D is a certain protocol to be observed, and D can serve to eliminate friction in international relations. D also helps preserve the global states system by acknowledging the existence of each state. It symbolizes the existence of a society of states, and in this way it can help facilitate the emergence of IL (Bull 164). Unfortunately, like IL, D is only plausible when there is a fairly even balance of power. If there is nothing to negotiate with or if the negotiation is not between even parties, the more powerful party has little incentive to participate in the negotiations.

Diplomatic institutions have declined in the last century (Bull 171). This is evidenced today in the U.S.’s failure to talk to states like Iran or Syria in a fair, diplomatic manner unless it serves their interests. We may begin to bring Syria and Iran into the Iraq diplomacy in order to maintain a regional BOP in the Iraq area and to prevent a civil war and help increase security. If the U.S. did not have a selfish incentive for being diplomatic with Syria and Iran they probably would not engage them diplomatically. Before the US had selfish reasons for D, it engaged in political warfare. This would be characterized as diplomacy by insult and is a normal feature of periods of low consensus in the international society (168). Hopefully, with the further economic growth of weaker states, the U.S. will be held accountable for upholding and using all three of the institutions - BOP, D, and IL all the time and not when it is just convenient for achieving a goal in our national interest.

Works Cited

Brown, Chris, et al. International Relations in Political Thought. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002.

Bull, Hedley. Anarchical Society .New York City: Columbia University Press, 1977.

Smith, M, et al. Perspectives on World Politics. Oxford: Routledge Press, 2005.

Zakaria, Fareed. “It is the Economy Mr. President.” Washington Post. 20 November 2006: 1

Comments

sparkle, very well written. Although diplomacy(D) has not declined. The 3 forces you have spoken of have always operated in human culture. The names(labels) may change, the tune remains the same. Treaties between states(S) go back to the dawn of human history.

Armed force and trade have been arms of diplomacy, just as diplomacy and trade have been arms of armed force, just as diplomacy and armed force have been arms of trade, throughout all of human history. They are inextricably intertwined, and will always be so.

When any State turns a blind eye to an emerging threat, of any type, conflict will result.

And anytime one culture/State/religion stands forth and declares it’s intention to subjugate or destroy all other cultures/religions/States, conflict will result.

Diplomacy has been an absolute trainwreck between Islam and the rest of the human race. And the leaders of Islamic nations are quite satisfied with this state of affairs. It suits their purpose very well.

Still, very nicely written. Hopefully I am not the only person to read it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 14, 2007 at 10:26 am

Yea.
International relations really gets me because often times people don’t give it the time and thought it needs to draw out interesting things to think about. In saying that I’m not condemning anyone or any side, merely stating my wish to read some more interesting stuff on the topic than the crap I usually bump into.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 14, 2007 at 10:29 am

This piece is diminished by the erroneous examples. “Israel’s conduct in the Lebanon conflict” is portrayed as a violation of “human rights abuses”. This is backwards. Israel took great pains to minimize casualties while Hezbollah’s entire tactic was to target civilians.

Who does “international law” support? If you listened to the UN and noticed the coziness of the players, it was the human rights abuser that they supported.

Your, “U.S.’s failure to talk to states like Iran or Syria in a fair, diplomatic manner unless it serves their interests” claim is laughable. I hesitate to think what constitutes a “fair, diplomatic manner” in your eyes. If it is anything like the standard you apply to Israel, it is anything but “fair”.

likwidshoe on January 14, 2007 at 10:59 am

I have followed geopolitical issues, with varying degrees of interest/anger/despair for 30 years. I subscribed to Foreign Affairs Journal, Cato Inst. Quarterly Diplomatic Reveiw, United Nations Bi-annual Report on International Relations, among others since 1980. I used to get some strange comments and looks when I got these various publications and newsletters at mailcall in morning formation. Once got FAJ,Pravda english print edition, and High Times in one bundle.

Try these guys,they may help.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 14, 2007 at 11:00 am

Lik
I apologize about the baggage I bring to this piece. Perhaps it can be appreciated just as an intellectual exercise for me that I thought may have some content one or two of you would appreciate. I understand the extra things one may read into it based on my past comments et cetera.

It also may serve to help explain some funny state bedfellows and some of Europe’s ‘silly’ feelings in opposition to us. From their perspective, our success may lead to an inclination to buttress the world scale things in the other direction… no matter how retarded they may come off. Again… I have no idea… I’m just speculating. Its difficult to imagine what some of these people/states think/feel.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 14, 2007 at 01:20 pm
Avatar for Anarchist Vegetarian

Diplomacy has been an absolute trainwreck between Islam and the rest of the human race. And the leaders of Islamic nations are quite satisfied with this state of affairs. It suits their purpose very well.--2Hotel9

Venezuela (mostly Catholic) and Iran (mostly Muslim) seem to be getting on. Maybe the fundamentalist Muslim’s just hate the trouble-making states?

This is backwards. Israel took great pains to minimize casualties while Hezbollah’s entire tactic was to target civilians.--Likwidshoe

You mean the “civilians” in the 64 (Merkava?) tanks that Hezbollah damaged/destroyed? Also:

Various agencies have criticised both Israel and Hezbollah. Amnesty International condemned both Hezbollah and Israel for attacks on civilians, in addition to the confirmed use of white phosphorus by the IDF, and published a report suggesting that the attacks on civilian property were a deliberate part of the Israeli military strategy, rather than collateral damage.--Wikipedia

Personally, I’d check atleast Wikipedia before saying something so ignorant Likwidshoe.

And good summary of I.R. Sparkie.

Anarchist Vegetarian on January 14, 2007 at 08:10 pm

AV--- Numerous independent organizations have reported the obvious, that Hezbollah has fired thousands of missiles, aimed (or not) at civilian populations.  Israel has taken the step of even calling the neighborhoods of an upcoming strike to take our a rocket launcher hiding in their neighborhoods.

I read your blog and it reinforces my initial evaluation, that Bolivia is having quite a few problems.  Many of them could be solved if the people could vote for their government.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on January 14, 2007 at 08:31 pm

AFR, did the IDF use civilians as sheilds? Did the IDF build their military facilities in the middle of villages, and hold the citizens hostage until after Hizbullah attacked and the news crews were there to film the “carnage”?

No, they did not do any of these things.

And what were the casualty numbers? Who got the shit kicked out of them? Who lost thousands of tons of munitions and equipment? Who had to be resupplied, under cover of darkness and the UN, by Iran and Russia by way of Syria? And,for extra credit, who has created a refugee camp in the city of Beruit, funded exclusively by Iran through Hizbullah?

Come! Don’t be shy. Just shout those answers out.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 14, 2007 at 08:32 pm
Avatar for Anarchist Vegetarian

2Hotel9: I am not defending Hezbollah’s actions. I was merely pointing out that both sides deliberately attacked both military and civilian targets. This was to disprove Likwidshoe’s claims that “Israel took great pains to minimize casualties while Hezbollah’s entire tactic was to target civilians.”(Emphasis is mine).

Anarchist Vegetarian on January 14, 2007 at 08:53 pm

The IDF took great pains to avoid killing civilians. Hizbullah used them as ineffectual sheilds.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 14, 2007 at 09:09 pm

I remember that, during the conflict, I heard something about how Israel was using cluster bombs we sold them in a way that was not contractually consistent with the manner in which they had legally assured us they were going to use them. After that I never heard another word about it.

The example is in the paper because most of the people who will eventually read this short are academics and, whether you guys like it or not, they regard the lopsided war, the use of the cluster bombs, the killing of the UN personell, and the destruction of basic civilian infrastructures such as bridges prior to the warnings that they would bomb (making it a hell of a lot harder to travel long distances quickly) as human right violations or war crimes or whatever. I think Hizbollah, being terrorists, are assumed to be violating human rights left and right (no pun) in targeting civilian populations, their basic MO as a non-state actor, and many of their money raising activities. Unfortunately, Israel had the task of fighting them, a significant minority, in a country full of other people.

I still can help but wonder if a smaller, well armed Israeli force could have gone in and spanked some important Hizbollah infrastructures or leaders without blowing up the whole country and making alot of the citizens more sympathetic to Hizbollah. Poor fricking Lebanon. It seems like every time I turn around the place is just getting the crap kicked out of it.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 15, 2007 at 06:17 am

Anarchist Vegetarian spews, Personally, I’d check atleast Wikipedia before saying something so ignorant Likwidshoe.

Oh, the “encyclopedia” that I happen to edit from time to time?

Checking Wikipedia is going to do what, again?

Sparkie Arbuckle asserts, I still can help but wonder if a smaller, well armed Israeli force could have gone in and spanked some important Hizbollah infrastructures or leaders without blowing up the whole country...

Israel wasn’t “blowing up the whole country”. They were pinpointing Hezbollah strongholds.

It’s comments like that that discredit you.

likwidshoe on January 15, 2007 at 07:18 am

You will have to get into their archives for this story. And I can assure you, no CBU manufactored in America, France, or South Africa plays music or looks like a childs toy. Now, who would use such a device on civilians?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 15, 2007 at 07:25 am

Here is a good source on weapons systems, and a good overall source on matters military/geopolitical.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 15, 2007 at 07:32 am

They were pinpointing Hezbollah strongholds.

I didn’t know every major bridge and highway around Beruit was a Hizbollah stronghold. In fact, they aren’t. You discredit yourself with those types of gross oversimplifications.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 15, 2007 at 10:21 am

Sparkie: I see that basic military tactics are something else you don’t understand.  When you have air superiority, like Israel did, one of the first things you do is to take out the means by which the enemy can move around to resupply their forces and deploy their assets.  That means taking out roads and bridges.  Duh.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 15, 2007 at 10:36 am
Avatar for Sparkie

r108
That’s all well indeed. Unfortunately I was responding to Lik’s contention that I am somehow wrong because Israel only hit ‘Hizbollah strongholds’. I was pointing out that they hit other targets besides those strongholds, be they strategic or not. Lik was oversimplifying and acting like I was worng. You are responding to God knows what. Maybe if you need a little help learning how to read threads and tell whats going on I can help you sometime.
Furthermore, all the griping about Lebanon’s ineffectual democracy is foolish when one bears in mind that Israel thoroughly trounced their basic infrastructures. Believe it or not, basic infrastructures are needed for democracy to work. This simple fact seems to be beyond the contemplative abilites of all the people in the Bush admin who stand around griping about Iraq’s democracy and Lebanon’s democracy after they, and their Israeli allies, trash the basic infrastructures needed for democracy to occur in said regions.
Also - Lik was complaining about the use of ‘duh’ the other day. Perhaps you could save it for times when you are commenting on something that actually exists in the thread you are posting on because otherwise it makes you look and sound foolish. I think Lik may object less also if it is used appropriately and not in a silly nonsense manner like the ‘duh’ above.

Sparkie on January 15, 2007 at 11:57 am

Sparkie: Likwid was telling the truth; when Israel went after enemy personnel, they were scrupulous about avoiding civilian casualties, even though Hez purposely hid behind civilians in a number of ways.  That is an entirely different matter from their targeting infrastructure.  You seem confused about the difference between the war against terrorist infrastructure and terrorist personnel.  Both are necessary.  I know my “Duh” hit the mark with you, so you might want to sharpen up your knowledge before you make comments.  I only use it for really ignorant comments, like yours.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 15, 2007 at 12:22 pm

R108
First let me say it annoys me to no end to have to explain obvious fucking shit to you. You are an ass. You need a rewiring. OK.
Lik claimed Israel only targeted ‘Hizbollah strongholds’. He said nothing about infrastructures et cetera. Had he, I wouldn’t have objected. Hence he oversimplified. Period. I understand what you are saying… but it doesn’t make Lik’s oversimplification correct.
Next, labeling every bridge and highway in and out of Beruit ‘terrorist infrastructure’ is fallacious as hell. It is logically equivalent as deeming every commercial aircraft in the US ‘terrorist infrastructure’ because a terrorist may ride on it or use it as a weapon. Your linguistic reach is fallacious… to be expected. You are like a zeppelin. Full of hot air/gas/something noxious.
Let me extend the considerations. The Hizbollah sympathizers in Beruit, at the onset of the conflict, were maybe 10-15% of the city’s population. The actual Hizbollah fighters were maybe 2-4% of the cities population… maybe. Therefore, your calling every bridge and highway in and out of the city ‘terrorist infrastructure’ would be like me calling all the highways in the US ‘Native American infrastructure’… simply put, its wrong. Now it your turn to make up some more horse shit.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 15, 2007 at 06:26 pm

abcd123


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 15, 2007 at 06:48 pm

Sorry, just a test. Been having trouble getting in all afternoon.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on January 15, 2007 at 06:50 pm

Me too. This things flakey. The recent comments aint working and earlier it kept telling me I was ‘forbidden’. I thought Rob finally had enough.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 15, 2007 at 07:24 pm

Sparkie: As usual, you display your ignorance and inability to grasp simple concepts.  In a combat area, any infrastructure that the enemy can use to move their assets is up for destruction, especially if you have air superiority.  It is much easier to kill the enemy if they can’t move around.  I never said it was “terrorist infrastructure”, so you made that up.  Israel wanted to deny it to the terrorists, so they destroyed it.  BTW, you have to destroy it all, otherwise they will use the ones you didn’t destroy.  Duh.  I’m sorry you don’t know this.  You willfully misconstrued Likwid’s comment to have something to argue about, that’s all, and you got called on it.  Get used to it.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 15, 2007 at 08:34 pm

I never said it was “terrorist infrastructure”, so you made that up.

Oh. You didn’t say this?

You seem confused about the difference between the war against terrorist infrastructure and terrorist personnel.  Both are necessary.

You are a liar and a bullshit artist. I’m done here.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 15, 2007 at 09:05 pm

Sparkie: As usual, you display your ignorance and inability to grasp simple concepts.  In a combat area, any infrastructure that the enemy can use to move their assets is up for destruction, especially if you have air superiority.  It is much easier to kill the enemy if they can’t move around.  I never said it was “terrorist infrastructure”, so you made that up.  Israel wanted to deny it to the terrorists, so they destroyed it.  BTW, you have to destroy it all, otherwise they will use the ones you didn’t destroy.  Duh.  I’m sorry you don’t know this.  You willfully misconstrued Likwid’s comment to have something to argue about, that’s all, and you got called on it.  Get used to it.--Robet108

Hate to rain on your parade but it’s also highly illegal, ie. a war-crime, to target much of the civilian infratructure. Armed warfare is supposed to be between armies. Apparently there is even a convention smile . But Sparkie had something to say earlier about IL…


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on January 15, 2007 at 09:18 pm

Nice nitpick, Sparkie.  I meant “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists”, but you are willfully miscontruing it to have something to argue about, when you are obviously ignorant about the way war is fought.

AV: It is a “war crime” to use civilians as shields, like the terrorists do, but of course, everything they do is a “war crime”.  They also fired thousands of rockets with ball-bearing filled warheads at civilian targets within Israel, so when you start talking about “military targets”, and “between armies”, talk to the terrorists first.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 15, 2007 at 10:27 pm

Anarchist Vegetarian said, Hate to rain on your parade but it’s also highly illegal, ie. a war-crime, to target much of the civilian infratructure.

Where is this law written and who enforces it?

How does one win a war without destroying enemy infrastructure?

likwidshoe on January 16, 2007 at 01:22 am

I meant “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists”, but you are willfully miscon_truing it

Do you even read your own posts? Right here you admit you didn’t type what you meant and then you tell me I’m misconstruing things in the same sentence. You expect me to be psychic, reading only what you mean and not what you offer me to read? Its laughable… still. Also - spelling Nazi - misconstruing has an ‘S’ between the ‘N’ and the ‘T’.

If we can rightly destroy any “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists” during war, as you claim, don’t you think that brings a slightly too broad scope of things to be destroyed into play? I know, its an unfair question. You don’t think. I guess its more of a joke in the form of a question.

Also, let me point something out. During war, one must attempt to let civilians get out of the way before one bombs them to death. Hence Israel’s turning Lebanon into one giant ticker-tape parade where all the tickers read, “GO NORTH!” Unfortunately if you blow up all the roads and bridges going north before you begin the parade then your pure hatred for every one within the Lebanese borders becomes plainly evident. Israel should be slapped with war crimes charges and found guilty. There are many other reasons in addition to the one here. Israel has been passively antagonizing Palestine since they seized their land in what can only be described as a ‘Stalin-esque’ move. Anyone with two eyes who reads the news knows it. Even their own propaganda is becoming more transparent due to their simple blood lust. Its only a matter of time before most of them are in the Hague… or in court in Nuremberg.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on January 16, 2007 at 06:11 am

If we can rightly destroy any “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists” during war, as you claim, don’t you think that brings a slightly too broad scope of things to be destroyed into play?

No.

During war, one must attempt to let civilians get out of the way before one bombs them to death.

That’s a nice thought, but reality doesn’t always afford this luxury.

Unfortunately if you blow up all the roads and bridges going north before you begin the parade then your pure hatred for every one within the Lebanese borders becomes plainly evident. Israel should be slapped with war crimes charges and found guilty.

This isn’t reality. First of all, Israel didn’t blow up all of the roads and bridges leading north. To claim otherwise is lying. Secondly, even if Israel did do such a thing, it doesn’t amount to “war crimes”.

Israel has been passively antagonizing Palestine since they seized their land in what can only be described as a ‘Stalin-esque’ move. Anyone with two eyes who reads the news knows it.

Please explain.

Its only a matter of time before most of them are in the Hague… or in court in Nuremberg.

Given how fucked up this world is, I wouldn’t doubt it. The “international community” made Israel, now it wants to destroy it. It has cheerleaders such as you cheering them on.

likwidshoe on January 16, 2007 at 06:51 am
Avatar for Sparkie

If we can rightly destroy any “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists” during war, as you claim, don’t you think that brings a slightly too broad scope of things to be destroyed into play?


No.

So, according to your logic, given the current ‘war’ on terror, we would then be justified in blowing up commercial aircraft within the US because they are “infrastructure that can be used by terrorists”. Furthermore we would be justified in nuking Toronto as it has the most al Qaeda cells in N. America and therefore would fall into the same category? C’mon Lik… just carrying your assertions to their logical conclusions.

Israel has been passively antagonizing Palestine since they seized their land in what can only be described as a ‘Stalin-esque’ move. Anyone with two eyes who reads the news knows it.

Please explain.


The only precident we have for this type of land seizure and displacement of people is in Stalin’s Russia when he sent everyone he didn’t like to the steppes in the current Kazakystan area. In fact, those actions are causing some very bizarre ethnic tensions in the former Russian states. They are also coming up with unreasonable language requirements for citizenship and leaving many formerly displaced groups of people without a passport at all.
In addition, Israel coddles insane Zionists who take too much land and refuse to behave like normal citizens of the world. They allow these groups to actively antagonize the Palestinians and even use bulldozers to clear the way for these religious extremists to continue their colonization.

Its only a matter of time before most of them are in the Hague… or in court in Nuremberg.

Given how fucked up this world is, I wouldn’t doubt it. The “international community” made Israel, now it wants to destroy it. It has cheerleaders such as you cheering them on.


I wouldn’t bet against it.
Sparkie on January 16, 2007 at 08:25 am

The USA is not presently a “combat zone"(remember that part?), so it would not be appropriate to anyone with common sense.  However, there are those who faulted the President for not shooting down the second plane that hit the WTC, so your leftie pals apparently think so.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 16, 2007 at 09:24 am
Avatar for Sparkie

Look. I’m not inferring content for you guys to help your side of the argument. If you mean ‘in a combat zone’ then say it or type it or whatever. These retroactive qualifiers are silly. Then you can say whatever you want and say, “Oh, I mean this”. It makes arguing pointless. Say what you mean. I don’t see the difficulty there.

Also - R108 - you seem to be slipping of late. It seems you used to be a bit less flakey. I hope your health and happiness are A+ and all that.

Sparkie on January 16, 2007 at 10:08 am

I must say that minus my minor beefs with a couple of the examples, I believe that this piece of yours is well written Sparkie. It’s a little stilted which is expected given the subject matter, but it’s good reading for those of us who like to talk politics day in and day out.

likwidshoe on January 16, 2007 at 10:16 am
Look. I’m not inferring content for you guys to help your side of the argument. If you mean ‘in a combat zone’ then say it or type it or whatever. These retroactive qualifiers are silly. Then you can say whatever you want and say, “Oh, I mean this”. It makes arguing pointless. Say what you mean. I don’t see the difficulty there. The original subject was the war between Hez and Israel.  You didn’t know that we were talking about a combat zone?  Someone is slipping, here, and it isn’t me. The entire subject was tactics in war, in a war zone.

Also - R108 - you seem to be slipping of late. It seems you used to be a bit less flakey. I hope your health and happiness are A+ and all that.(/quote]

I mistype one word, and now I’m “slipping”?  Ah doan theenk so!  None of this is personal for me, Sparkie.  If you type something that I regard as ignorant crap, I say so.  Your IR article is a good exposition of your opinions on the matter.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on January 16, 2007 at 10:28 am
Avatar for Sparkie

thanks for the compliments guys.
i spent some time combing this over and condensing, removing BS et cetera. i hate reading things that don’t do much mentally and have effusive language that attempts to make up for content.

r108. i didn’t mean that to be a personal dig or anything. just hope you’re doing well… that’s all. really.

ok ok. i know we’re talking about combat zones. that one was a bit punky, but there has been some retroactive explaining going on above.

that said, I do think Israel went a bit overboard. I know that there is no ‘playing fair’ during war, but I think their massive campaign helped drive more Lebanese into Hizbollahs arms which, longterm, is counter to their ultimate objectives. its pretty tricky engaging Iran (in their back yard) without turning the whole thing into nuclear oneupsmanship. i wouldn’t want responsibility for any of it, before during or after.

Sparkie on January 16, 2007 at 11:31 am
Avatar for Sparkie

Lik
We had a little back and forth here over this:

Israel wasn’t “blowing up the whole country”. They were pinpointing Hezbollah strongholds.

And I accused you of being full of crap. I was right. Its now clear (as more than a couple articles have evidenced recently) that Israel broke our agreements with them regarding where our cluster munitions were to be used. We shouldn’t sell them any more. Furthermore, its also now clear that Israel often bombed with no clear military targets in sight, often in very close proximity to civilian popuilations. In addition, 40% of the millions of cluster bombs dropped failed to explode, causing the civilian death count from the war to continue to rise to this day… and I think a couple Belgian UN troops were also blown up recently by un-exploded ordinance.

You acted like I was the fruitcake here when, in fact, you were just making shit up.

Sparkie on January 31, 2007 at 07:26 am
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