Say Anything Blog

You don’t have a clue that there are people on the planet who would be reassured by a man who shares values and for whom the Word of God is a guide on life and leadership.  I would rather have a man as President who looks to God for guidance rather than looks to his MBA or what the Polls say.  I want a man who lives his life like I do.

I am happy for you.  However, he has already alienated half of the Republican Party that sees him as a Liberal who happens to simply be religious.  God doesn’t tell lawmakers how to vote on Taxes.  Of if God is talking to Huckabee about Taxes and Immigration, I think Mike Huckabee is following the wrong God.

You are so passionate about this guy simply because your religious beliefs are causing a gut feeling that he is the right candidate.  I do not share your religious beliefs.  I believe Mike Huckabee is simply a politician, now some savior sent directly from God/Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell to fix the US’s problems.  Therefore, if I do not accept that Huckabee’s religious beliefs have any bearing on the race, I am able to objectively view the candidates.  Huckabee is so weak on taxation and domestic policy that I cannot vote for him.  Secondly, he is so weak on foreign policy that his jokes about staying at a Holiday Inn Express ring true.

The only thing he is strong on is appealing to Christian right voters.  I am glad that he hooked you on his candidacy.  I believe an MBA is a hell of a lot more qualifying than a Theology degree to run this country.  It seems that you do not, and that is your business.

Hey Gene?  I don’t give a rip that you’re a Christian.  I don’t care that Mike Huckabee’s a Christian either, not that this will stop you from climbing up on a cross and nailing yourself to it.

What I care about Huckabee is that you care that he’s a Christian and you don’t care that he’s not a conservative.

That’s the problem.

Huckabee is a terrible, divisive candidate with all the conservative credentials of Jimmy Carter.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

You know what?  Shame on you, Gene, for equating those of us who oppose Huckabee to 1950’s era racists.

If I actually felt that way I would have banned you from the site a long time ago.  But contrary to your apparent opinion, I’m not a bigot.

But keep calling people who disagree with you that.  Let’s see just how deep this split in the GOP can go.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

If we don’t line up behind Huckabee, we are anti-Christian?

Keep giving litmus tests to voters by running your candidates out there and wondering why the majority of the country is so turned off by Evangelicals.

I am starting to support the ACLU in kicking these fucking retards out of the public square.  If Huckabee and his supporters are willing to follow damned near anyone simply because that person is “Christian”, then I think perhaps the ACLU and the Secular Left are right in calling Republicans a bunch of ignorant retards.  It destroys our credibility on taxes, immigration, the economy, foreign policy, and so on to send a “The Earth is 6000 years old” or “Evolution is a fraud” guy out there as a candidate, but that is what Gene thinks this country needs.

He is a one issue guy.  That issue is Christianity.  His overuse of “Christianity” is about as appealing as John Edwards’ overuse of his “Two Americas” speech.  Matter of fact, much of Huckabee’s platform appears to be lifted from the John Edwards Two Americas Speech.  Perhaps they should be running mates?

Mike Hucklebee is a Democrat. Period. His tenure as Governor of Arkansas clearly illustrates that. His repeated call for amnesty for illegal immigrants clearly illustrates that. His repeated tax&spend policies clearly illustrates that. He is not any type of conservative. And his protestations of deeply held Christian believes are shown false by one, simple point, taxing nursing home occupants based upon the space they occupy. Thus stripping money away from their care. Real Christian of him, don’t you agree, Gene?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Growing up on the farm in North Dakota sometimes we would throw a rock into a flock of chickens. The one that squawked first was the one that the rock struck. Other chickens around him would then squawk as well.  General uproar would ensue.

From that I came up with the axiom that the struck chicken always squawks first.

I think I just did again.  Rob, if you would like me to review all the really mean spirited demeaning comments made about Christians characterizing them as knuckle dragging drooling dummies on this blog over the the last few weeks, I can, you can.  I won’t.

I’m trying to be respectful, but sometimes it just becomes too much for me to endure. The lack of respect for people of faith who have another opinion is too much to allow to go on without objection.

[b]Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this could be their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

I’m trying to be respectful

No, you’re not.  You’re calling people who oppose Huckabee anti-Christian and comparing them to racial bigots.

You know, a lot of nasty things have been said about Fred Thompson on this blog too.  That’s politics, deal with it.

Your candidate isn’t a martyr.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Socialism in not an opinion, it is a mental disorder, and Hucklebee is massively infected with it. Christians do not espouse socialism, mentally ill people do.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The lack of respect for people of faith who have another opinion is too much to allow to go on without objection.

Bill Clinton claims to be a Christian. He goes to church and carries a great big Bible.
If I disagree with Bill, it is not because of whatever brand of Christianity he espouses, it would be because of his actions and policies.
Same with Huckabee, only Huckabee keeps dragging Christianity kicking and screaming into political discussions where, perhaps,it is not warranted.

I believe this is calculated to improve his electoral chances. Hence, his “toned down” religious appeal in New Hampshire.
Apart from Mike Huckabee the person, there is more calculus than Christianity in his campaign!

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Christians are being persecuted all around the world. You claiming Hucklebee is a martyr of Christianity is cheapening their sacrifices and suffering.

Shame on YOU.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I would rather have a man as President who looks to God for guidance rather than looks to his MBA or what the Polls say.

So quality number one--looks to God, even if he lacks education.

I’m still a Republican, I vote the party not the man, I don’t know what the rest of you are.

If that is the case, why are you championing so hard for this one single man who does not represent the platform of the party?

It’s the same level of pure prejudice based purely on ignorance.

6 months ago, I was ignorant on Huckabee.  I am quite well informed.  I just flat out don’t like the guy or his Liberal positions.  This is not prejudice.  This is me not liking his positions.  This is not ignorance. 

The definition of ignorance is derived from the word “ignore”.  As in ignore his record.  Ignore his Liberalism.  Ignore his pro-Amnesty stance.  Ignore his raising of taxes.  Ignore his regulation.  Ignore his pandering.

It is you who chooses to ignore these attributes of Huckabee’s and instead focus on his religious appeal.  I fully well recognize both his appeal to Christians and his Liberal positions.  I am not swayed by his religious message and focus on his politics.

You are ignorant.  You choose to call us racists and ignore our serious and justified reservations about this man.  You say it is about the party, not the man, but in truth in your mind it is about neither the party, nor the man, but about God.  Huckabee is God’s candidate.  So you ignore what is good for the party or the country because your belief in God tells you to.  That is ignorance.

Proof,

Bill Clinton claims to be a Christian. He goes to church and carries a great big Bible.

Romney should get extra special treatment because he carries around two big ol’ books.  That is double the pleasure and double the fun.

And both have had conversations about their underwear in public!

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Though to be fair - anyone who believes in creationism over proven scientific discoveries and logic is seriously retarded.

Right wing extremist Christians are simply terrorists, no more no less. Firebombing abortion clinics, and walking around with God Hates Fags placards protesting at funerals of military men.

Hell has a special place for such retarded inbreds.

Right wing extremist Christians are simply terrorists, no more no less. Firebombing abortion clinics, and walking around with God Hates Fags placards protesting at funerals of military men.

There is one church that does the picketing and the bombings were the work of one single man who is a murderer and no one but perhaps a deranged white seperatist has supported him.  We can all agree that White Supremicists, abortion clinic bombers, and the God Hates Fags crowd are despicable human beings.  But these are not Christian Fundamentalists.

As a whole, I find most Christian Fundamentalists to be pleasant people.  Folks like the Menonites and the Amish.  Even the more mainstream folks that home school.  What is despicable is the group of new Evangelicals that intertwine their message of politics and pandering and spend their time soliciting tithes instead of doing real work in the world.

I would like to hear Huckabee’s record of doing missionary work for the poor or see his own charitable contributions toward something other than his church.  See his record of doing Christ-like work in the community and around the world.  Most Fundamentalists tend to blend into the woodwork.  The loud and vocal folks are the new Evangelical followers of various things like the Prosperity Gospel and their puppet mouthpieces that are drunk on the power that they derive from leading their armies of ignorant followers on crusades against gay marriage, abortion, and moral decay.  These folks are politicians that are using religion as a tool to control the masses and keep them riled up constantly for their own benefit.  Note how they drive fancy cars and live in fancy houses and make good livings simply by having a pleasant face, good speaking skills, the ability to read the Bible, and a platform to attack the Godless Heathen Secular Left while soliciting donations and tithes.  These are hardly fundamentalist attributes.

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/mike_huckabee_and_bridges_to_nowhere/

Hey, Gene, how about you look into the Bridge to Nowhere and the folks Huckabee has working on his campaign.

But that is probalby us just hating Christians too…

While Rob, myself and many others have serious problems about many of Huckabee’s political positions, which are not at all conservative in nature; Gene is right about one thing, a major objection to Huckabee by some on the Right is his Christian faith, that is the Truth.

In some cases the objections against his candidacy are because Huckabee has used his faith as a major reason to vote for him and he has used that faith to corner the Christian Right votes. In this there is something to be said about how unseemly it is for Huckabee to drag Christ and the Church into the election and the world to this extent, making it appear that to not vote for him is to vote against God and to vote for him should be natural for all Christians.

On the other hand, there is with many here a deep seated dislike for people of faith, many of those prejudices are on display for everyone to see under this thread. From one being tempted to join the ACLU in kicking people of faith out of the public square, which is unAmerican and violates the Constitution. Then there is “anyone who believes in creationism over proven scientific discoveries and logic is seriously retarded,” which is a measure of a intolerant mind and one that believes science is pure and therefore faith in Christ results from a defective intellect. They are both wrong in my opinion and I think in the opinion of most fair minded people.

Christians are a diverse group, some very liberal and highly carnal in their faith, some very Fundamentalist in nature and highly spiritual in their faith; with the majority being in the middle, having a sure faith in God but realizing the world must be lived in and they must measure a man or woman by much more than just their faith.

Huckabee has a right to announce his faith and to make it an issue of his campaign, whether it is done in a low key and sensitive way having respect for those not sharing that faith or in a less admirable, more calculating manner for the sole purpose of gaining power. Each voter has a right to vote or not vote for Huckabee or any candidate as they see fit, and it is to my mind, not helpful to the conservative cause when people attack and demean people that find Huckabee’s faith of comfort in a world that is rapidly becoming wholly secular and hostile to Christ and the Church. Rather, it seems to me that expressing respect and sensitivity for those Christians genuinely discouraged about the rapid and extreme secularization of America, along with serious debates about the host of other issues wherein Huckabee supports policies that will be harmful to the conservative cause and in many ways harmful to the free expression of faith in the public square.

We all know of Justin B’s antagonism towards people of faith that don’t think about this matter like he does, on the other end of the spectrum we are all aware that as an aheist Rob would emphasize secular issues and not be much concerned with whether a candidate believes in God or not. However, this election presents a very serious risk, in my opinion, of handing this nation over to one of three extreme socialist minded candidates and a Democrat controlled Congress that will harm everyone in this country; and which political philosophy is very hostile to people of faith. I think it would be far better to concentrate on the dangers facing America in this election along with basic conservative issues, and whether someone is a person of faith like myself or Gene or not, we need to find common ground and try and avoid divisive issues. On conservative issues Huckabee cannot win, however if those hostile to Christ and the Church want to engage in attacking people of faith - I assure we can look forward to Democrat Party control of this country for decades, as such hostility will cause evangelicals to harden in their support of Huckabee. So, while I hate to sound like Rodney King, “can’t we all just get along,” we need to at least long enough to keep the Hildabeast, The Breck Girl or Osamabama out of the White House, I once more will make that appeal, knowing that to some the fun of beating up on people of faith is of much greater importance to them than getting a Republican elected?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

If Huckabee and his supporters are willing to follow damned near anyone simply because that person is “Christian”, then I think perhaps the ACLU and the Secular Left are right in calling Republicans a bunch of ignorant retards.

One who blindly follows someone simply because that person is Christian tends to support the Secular Left’s view of Christians.  I would sincerely hope that Christians are reasoning creatures and are not swayed by which candidate is the most Christian.  Sending Huckabee out for the general election as the Republican nominee does more to harm Christianity than anything.  He cannot get elected and he makes Republican voters look like a bunch of idiots. 

We all know of Justin B’s antagonism towards people of faith that don’t think about this matter like he does, on the other end of the spectrum we are all aware that as an aheist Rob would emphasize secular issues and not be much concerned with whether a candidate believes in God or not.

Antagonistic huh?  I might add that Mormons are people of faith and that you and many others (as well as Huckabee) have been “antagonistic” towards their faith.  They are not Christian.  They are a cult.  You have been less vocal and more reserved in your criticism, but these so called “people of faith” have attacked Romney with the most disgusting portrayals of the Mormon faith imaginable, yet you call me antagonistic?

Fact is that faith based politics is wrong.  Christ was not a politician and those folks that tout how Christian they are are almost never representing Christ.  Huckabee is simply a Liberal with a theology degree.  And when we start judging politicians based on their theology credentials, and these same Evangelical voters throw a Mormon under the bus because he is not Christian, they deserve what they got coming.  The deserve the ACLU.  And for all the things they have said about Obama being Muslim and Romney being Mormon, they are playing an identity politics game that is dangerous to the very fabric of this country.

I am not antagonistic about faith.  I simply don’t play the little game of “Christians can do no wrong”.  Some are deeply flawed people and I don’t give them a “get out of jail free card” simply because of where they worship on Sunday.  Faith is fine.  Personal faith.  But attacking another’s is not.  And playing this faith based political game of using religion as a means to get elected instead of getting elected on principles and positions is absolutely what makes people hostile towards people of faith.  This is an attempt by a group of Conservative Christian Evangelical voters to institute a government run by their leaders like Dobson and Robertson and so on.  Robertson and Dobson disgust me.  So did Falwell.  They are ignorant bigots who are drunk on their own power and act in Christ’s name in very unChristian ways.  And they do not deserve a free pass and neither does Huckabee.

If I were to go back over the last couple weeks comments on Say Anything you would think this was 1953 and the comments on Say Anything about Christians were about the Negroes of the south.

Wow. One big difference though: skin color and religious beliefs do not compare. Not even close. One is incidental. One is free will belief.

Try again?

When you’re done throwing your hissy fit, let’s talk taxes and foreign policy. Can we manage that?

I’m trying to be respectful...

You could have fooled me. You’re doing a lot to turn me, and those like me, off Gene. As you ask for “respect for people of faith”, how about respect for people not of your faith? Can we manage that?

Huckabee has turned his religion into a club and you followed right along with him.

Peter Kaye - Though to be fair - anyone who believes in creationism over proven scientific discoveries and logic is seriously retarded.

Why can’t they both be true? Can you drop your inane insults long enough to consider that idea? Can you manage that bit of maturity Peter Kaye? Somehow, I doubt it. Feel free to surprise us. Put your hatred away and consider why you think you have all of the answers and why you’re so hateful to those who think differently.

Right wing extremist Christians are simply terrorists, no more no less. Firebombing abortion clinics, and walking around with God Hates Fags placards protesting at funerals of military men.

Dude, you’re an flaming idiot. The ‘God Hates Fags’ guy is a lifelong Democrat. He’s one of your own and filled with the same type of irrational hatred.

likwid: It’s also imbecilic to compare 5 abortion clinic deaths with the millions of deaths from Islamic terrorism all over the world.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Though to be fair - anyone who believes in creationism over proven scientific discoveries and logic is seriously retarded.

Fair? Proven? Are you kidding? 

It would be fair to say that science offers a plausible explanation for life but not proven. 

It would also be fair to acknowledge that intelligence is a plausible explanation for life. 

Philosophy offers logical explanations for a Creator, and others for the material.  Both employ logic, but in the estimation of the majority, only natural philosophy accounts for that which is observed in nature, as well as the innate knowledge of a Creator in a manner that is logically sound.

You might want to give a wee bit more thought before you proclaim the greatest human minds belong to “seriously retarded” individuals since most did and many still do logically grasp the reality of a Creator.

Though to be fair - anyone who believes in creationism over proven scientific discoveries and logic is seriously retarded.

Let’s rephrase that… Anyone that denies proven scientific facts is seriously retarded…

I would argue that the “Earth is 6000 years old” crowd and the Evolution Deniers are on par with the Dennis Kucinich UFO supporters.  You can only take faith so far when presented with insurmountable evidence.

I personally believe in Evolution and Geology.  The Grand Canyon didn’t miraculously appear 6000 years ago after 7 days of work.  I use the Bible everyday in my life in the application of right and wrong, in the need for salvation, in defining how to interact with my fellow man.  I am big on the Four Gospels and on Christ’s teachings, but regard most of the Old Testament as less reliable and often archaic compared to the message of Christ which was fairly simple and straightforward.  Love thy fellow man.  Follow your Savior.  And for the most part, these politics and scientific debates offer little in the way of either of those.  Christ’s teachings were almost all personal salvation. 

Not the salvation of “society”.  He believed and taught that you can walk with Whores and Prostitutes and Lepers, yet do so with love.  You can walk with abortion patients and comfort them and help them heal the wounds they have caused.  One need not live in a perfect society to seek to follow Christ.  And Huckabee and Dobson and others are teaching something drastically different than my spiritual beliefs.  And my beliefs do not require any determination of whether Evolution happens or not--which it does.  So does Global Warming.  Maybe Global Warming is caused by man or God or the Sun and maybe Evolution is caused by a Creator… but these mysteries don’t preclude one from following Christ’s teachings.

Anyone that denies proven scientific facts is seriously retarded…

Absent the reality of divine intervention (ie, miracles) at specific points in history, I might have to agree.  Bottom line is miraculous intervention is not a natural occurance and therefore does not follow the laws of nature.  To look for the methods or forces God employed to create all things is to look for that which cannot be observed.  To look for the same as it would relate to other miraculous events like the flood is to look for the invisible and unnatural as well. 

Evidence of the act of creation or a global flood accomplished by miraculous means would not leave evidence that would fit any natural explanation or observation.  Modern science cannot say whether or not such miracles occured.

Evidence of the act of creation or a global flood accomplished by miraculous means would not leave evidence [of said means] that would fit any natural explanation or observation.

/just to clarify.

That is not to say that evidence of intelligence, design, etc. observed cannot be attributed to the Creator.

That is not to say that evidence of intelligence, design, etc. observed cannot be attributed to the Creator.

Here’s my take, HG: If there is a Creator, everything flows from same, and it all makes sense, even human ignorance of The True Cause.
If there is no Creator, then you are stuck with the “random chance” model, and it would take a miracle for life at this level to have occurred in the time allotted by random chance.  They’ve run the numbers, and we might be at the bacterium level now, by random chance.  Either way, it’s a miracle.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

On this and other threads I have been trying to appeal to the better angels of their nature of many commenting here to debate the issues and the candidates based on those issues only and to try and keep from insulting and alienating a powerful conservative voting block - evangelicals. Unfortunately, when it touches on matters of the Christian Faith, and I mean only the Christian Faith, no matter the cost to the Party and the Country, some feel it is more important to constantly verbally bitch slap any evangelical Christian for the pure pleasure of advancing their own sense of self-superiority than the Party winning the White House next year. In this election cycle, that kind of egocentric, narcissistic approach may prove more costly than any of us are willing to pay. Yet, I know that the anti-Huckabee and anti-evangelicals hate thesewse people so much that even political suicide doesn’t seem to high a price.

I would love to debate and counter the many, many ignorant things said about the Church, Creationism and evangelicals above; But, the hard hearted people here with such anti-evangelical passions and dislike for Huckabee would simply roll around like pigs in slop at the chance to bash them all once more and even to be able to promote their heterodox Christian beliefs.

Rob: This is what I have been screaming about, even the slightest references by you, Whistler or anyone about Huckabee’s faith and the evangelical support he seems to enjoy, no matter how minor a factor they might be in your own mind, are only used as excuses to further and more permanently divide the Party and give this election to the Democrats, as long as it means they can use those words to attack people of the Christian faith. We might as well say to hell with this election cycle, go home and quietly commit seppuku, we are after all for the sake of anti-Christian arguements committing Political Harikari.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman: Here’s a thought for you: In no way is any non-Christian going to be elected President of the United States in the foreseeable future.  This is a Christian nation(more than 80%).  The real problem people have with Huck and other Evangelicals is the “holier than thou” attitude.  When that guy said Fred “wasn’t a Christian”, it wasn’t a statement about reality; it was a statement expressing superiority of faith, and that is deadly in America.  It is the sin of pride, IMO.  I think that is what makes the rest of us uncomfortable.  We know the difference between our secular govt and our faith, and one does not diminish the other, but each occupies its own realm, so to speak.  Trying to mix those in an administrative sense is the kiss of death, politically, and a Republican win in ‘08 is so important to this country that we don’t want to blow it by letting someone who is egotistical about their faith to represent the Party.  It just won’t fly.
You may think your level of faith is superior to others’ but we all need to pull together here, or we will go communist together under the Dems.  Think about it.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Robert108:

You may think your level of faith is superior to others’ but we all need to pull together here.

And when did ever I say or directly imply that my level of faith is superior to anyone? I am getting a little tired of the old charge that just because I am willing to defend my beliefs with some passion and conviction that I am asserting any spiritual superiority. Quite frankly, I won’t even defend something so biased and stupid.

Now here is a thought for you: Please tell me exactly how do the Republicans win the White House in 2008 without Evangelicals? If they cannot, then what good does it do to deliberately alienate them as many here at SA have gone out of their way to do? If you read any of my many comments, I don’t support Huckabee because he is not a conservative and I would not vote for anyone solely because he is an evangelical; but, evangelicals are passionate about their love of Christ and their defense of the faith and I cannot understand why some on the Right believe that deliberately insulting them or their ministerial leaders will not push them in the wrong direction.

But, no one and nothing will stop these people that want to bitch slap evangelicals, their hate is that deep.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

And when did ever I say or directly imply that my level of faith is superior to anyone?

I should have known better; I meant “you” in the generic sense, not you personally.

Now here is a thought for you: Please tell me exactly how do the Republicans win the White House in 2008 without Evangelicals?

Here’s a thought for you: How can Evangelicals hope to have any representation in national govt without the Republican Party?  To quote Ben Franklin: “If we don’t hang together, we will all certainly hang separately.” Lose the ego, and let’s pull together to defeat the commies.  You are mistaken in thinking any conservatives hate Evangelicals, but the Dems surely do.  You should know that.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Robert108:
(1) I notice you ignored my question.
(2) Since you answer a question with a question; I’ll follow that pattern and ask you, without evangelicals, is there any viable conservative Republican Party left to ever gain real power in this country?
(3) With so many secular Republicans above saying things like they might support the ACLU to kick Christians out of the Public Square, or attacking their intelligence over creationism, how can you not define that as hate? Jesus would! He said if you don’t love someone, then he says you in fact hate them.
(4) My entire appeal and my decision to deliberately avoid answering some of the ignorant things said about Christianity above, I was openly appealing for unity and not division, so how can you then suggest I need to “pull together” with anyone, when that was my appeal to the anti-evangelical people above?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Oh my but I do so love Al Gore’s internets. Thanks for all the laughs, fellers.

Nieman, how old is the earth?

Excuse me, you were saying?

Neiman: I answered your question; you just didn’t like my answer.  In case you missed it, here it is again: we are interdependent.
It will take Evangelicals, Christians and conservatives pulling together to fend off the commies.  I have repeatedly said this, but here it is once again.
If you can stop the victimhood and pull together against the common enemy, we might get somewhere, but if you stay in your little corner nursing your hurt feelings, we will certainly lose.  That was the point of the Ben Franklin quote.
You are mistaken to label those of us who don’t follow your personal agenda as “anti-evangelical”.  That is simply divisive.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I wasn’t there when the earth came into being, so I take the Word of He that was there when He created it and His first Person, eyewitness account says it is something close to 6000 years. On the other hand, I am sure you were not there either at the beginning and so you probably rely upon the word of finite, frail scientists that were also not there and you feel their account and your finite opinion is more reliable than my First Person, Eyewitness.

Feel good now? You are typical of Christian bashers and most liberals. The thread is about Huckabee with some minor mention of Christians at the head and you choose to ignore the main subject and look for a way to change the subject (obfuscate), as you have never won a single arguement at Say Anything on any subject and you probably feel ridicule is the closest you will get here to having any self esteem.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Nieman, how old is the earth?

I agree with Nieman.  I would say the earth is likely only 6000 years old, but definately no older than 10,000.

I would however add that the present form of the earth is not exactly as it was on the 6th and final day of creation.  I also believe in the miraculous global flood as a means of divine judgment that unnaturally changed things to a degree only Noah and his family could explain in any detail.

First Person, Eyewitness.

Oh, that’s a great source.

Man, that bedeviled and beguiling creature who has a knack for lying, is to be believed over all else.

Riiiight!

I’ll never understand those who take the word of God man over all else in life. It seems to be the height of foolishness.

Robert108:
You are the word game master, you make a major Twister look like a straight line by comparison.

(1) Those above and elsewhere bashing evangelicals, are in your world not the ones causing division in the party. No, rather I am being divisive for even mentioning their attacks on evangelicals. Very clever, you are making this argument: a guy walks up and spits in the face of another person and you call the guy with spit on his face the aggressor. That is perverse reasoning!

(2) “If you can stop the victimhood and pull together against the common enemy, we might get somewhere, but if you stay in your little corner nursing your hurt feelings, we will certainly lose.” That is a direct, personal attack on me an dmy character absent any foundation in fact whatsoever. Again in your perverse reasoning; a person points out errors in behavior by several people and rather than consider that fact, you instantly defend the ones committing the errors and blame the one for pointing it out as being in the wrong. You really live in an upside down universe, don’t you?

(3) Despite my avoiding the temptation to defend my faith, I made an open appeal to stop causing division by making all these constant and mean spirited disparaging remarks about evangelicals; you have deliberately, with malice, decided in a perverse way to sow more seeds of division and help your pals above push evangelicals even further away and help them insure a major Republican defeat in 2008. I don’t see you your defending those making these demeaning comments about evangelicals and attacking me can achieve anything but more division, which appears to be your real goal.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

A “day” = as measured by the Earth’s rotation before it was even created?

Oh,..okay.

These “days” and “6,000 years” may not be the days and years we are accustomed to. “6,000 years” could very well be billions of years.

Why would an “all powerful God” need six days in the first place? You’d figure that he could create all of this painful hellish shit in one instant.

And then this “all powerful God” decided to rest? What is he resting for? He’s all powerful!

It doesn’t add up.

HG: I don’t deny the Flood or the change in the earth as a consequence of sin.

Likwidshoe:

Man, that bedeviled and beguiling creature who has a knack for lying, is to be believed over all else.

I’ll never understand those who take the word of finite scientific men that have been proven wrong about virtually everything, over all else in life. It seems to be the height of foolishness.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

When did He lie about anything? You cannot prove that asinine claim!

What claim?

You don’t even know…

“He” = man?

Okay… That explains a lot.

How did these religious stories get passed down? Man passed them down. Man does not equal “He” or “God”.

So again - what claim?

I’ll never understand those who take the word of finite scientific men that have been proven wrong about virtually everything, over all else in life. It seems to be the height of foolishness.

I’ll consider this claim as I type on my scientist invented computer.

Likewidshoe:
It is foolish to engage in debate with someone that only uses such times to argue and fight against people of faith for their own wicked amusement. I have nothing further to say to you on this matter, Jesus tells us of the foolishness of casting pearls before beings that will not appreciate their true value but only want to turn and attack the person. Bye bye!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Nieman

If you are afflicted with aids, whose Word will you look to for continued life?
If your eyes grow weak, whose Word will you look to for a solution?
If a wife of yours is to give birth, whose Word will you heed for her and your child’s continued health?
If you became contagious with bird flu, whose Words will you seek out to sustain your own life?
When the skeleton of an incredible animal is unearthed, whose instruments will you look upon to assess its age?
When you gaze upon the play of pixelsz before you now, to whom do you attribute its creation?
Nieman, who figured out flight, smart bombs and sporks?

Nieman, when was the Word of He that was there written down?

Excuse me, you were saying?

I have nothing further to say to you on this matter...

Good! Now shut the fuck up.

Jesus tells us of the foolishness of casting pearls before beings that will not appreciate their true value but only want to turn and attack the person. Bye bye!

You forgot to call me a “swine”.

Ya flaming divisive hypocrite.

This website has gotten a lot meaner since you have shown up. Considering our fighting nature here, that’s really saying something.

Liwidshoe: I have to sincerely apologize to you, for some reason, while reading too rapidly, I missed the “Man” part of that statement and went after you as to that statement without just cause, thinking you were calling God a Liar. I am sorry!

Jesus was both fully God and fully man, He said every word of Scripture, as far it is in the original and unchanged manuscripts inerrant. So, it was God working in man that produced Holy Scripture.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

RBB: If these things occur I will look to God first and when I turn to man I will credit God with inspiring them towards any and all advances men made in this world.

God inspired Moses on the Mountain of God to write down per His instructions all that had happened before him and the laws that ould enable men to live peaceful, prosperous lives. Thereafter, He, by His Spirit, inspired various men to faithfully record the history of the Jews and His direct words to man.

Such matters are not capable of being answered by me, especially in such a place that would do these subjects justice. I would recommend certain books that answer all these questions and more in great detail. Not perhaps to your complete satisfaction, but certainly in a scholarly and exhaustive manner.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Rbb, human intelligence and the ability to discover knowledge already present in nature is proof to most that humanity is a special creation.  Our intellectual efforts and accomplishments bespeak the glory of our Creator and the provisions made for His creation.

Man lies. He has his own agenda.

And the religious are telling us that they are putting their faith into the “word of God”.

As written by man.

Apologies to the faithful religious. I don’t put the same kind of stock into man. Now quit acting like I have some kind of default for not putting all of my faith into MAN.

*as a side note, putting one’s faith into man is one of the criticisms that the religious charge atheists. How ironic that they do the same thing.

Likwidshoe: Nice language, very intelligent, mature response, not. That is anger, fear and frustration that has caused you to descend to such base langauge. Why? Because in your heart you know you are wrong!

What exactly have I said that was mean to you or anyone here. Please be specfic or show to one and all that you are making false charges.

Since I began by appealing for unity and have tried, despite many personal attacks to avoid all divison, to avoid religious discussions, if you are an honest man, you will show me exactly where I said anything that was divisive.

Why am I a hypocrite. Please be specfic about when I said anything that was the opposite of what I have said elsewhere, I am capable of unintentionally opposing myself, so please point our my error!

Lik you have no reason for the level of anger you displayed above. I did not use the word swine deliberately because it was a term peculiar to that time and I wanted to avoid offending you by using it. But, Jesus did use the word, so was He wrong?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I am getting tired and going to bed, I get up early. I tried to appeal for unity for the sake of the conservative cause and even then it was turned upside down and the debate has turned quite ugly. I hope after everyone gets a good night sleep, we will all use more unifying language and less anger. If I offended anyone, albeit without intending to, I apologize!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

lik,

Regarding the part of man in the recording the bible it is true human beings penned most of the bible.  But the biblical claim is that they were inspired by God to speak and record the revelation given through them.  In this regard, it is believed that the bible is not the word of men. 

Proofs include historical accounts and records, the agreement of some 40 different writers over some 3000 years, the testimony of the literal words spoken by God Himself on earth, the written record of the 8 different men who were with Him and heard Him (Jesus) speak, among others.  But ultimately it comes down to faith.  Faith in the person and revelation of Jesus Christ and the word by which we have it—the bible.

Neiman: As usual, you have morphed what I said into some paranoid personal attack on you, which it isn’t.  I can go no farther with you on this; the misunderstanding is too deep, and I don’t have the energy to keep retracing my steps to get a simple point across.  No one is “bashing” Evangelicals; it’s really an artifact of your persecution complex.  You use it to justify bashing us.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Neiman - That is anger, fear and frustration that has caused you to descend to such base langauge.

You got one out of three. Frustration. Why I allow that frustration is a good question to ask myself.

Why? Because in your heart you know you are wrong!

My heart tells me that it would be dangerous for my soul to follow your teachings. Your teachings are too angry, too divisive, and too malevolent. Belief is a requirement for your God. My heart tells me that only a malevolent God would require such belief. My heart tells me that there is something seriously fundamentally wrong that a child raping murderer can be forgiven, but a good man who doesn’t believe ends up in Hell.

If you don’t care or want to know what my heart tells me, then don’t presume to speak for my heart. Thank you.

What exactly have I said that was mean to you or anyone here.

Non-Christian views are viewed as a direct affront onto you and “God”. They are treated as such.

And then you get pissed when there is push-back.

Next comes the assumptions; of what you “know” exists in other’s hearts.

Please be specfic or show to one and all that you are making false charges.

Egh, whatever. You’ve never found my specifics to be specific enough for your tastes. Here, as before, you will label me a liar or some other such bullshit.

Since I began by appealing for unity...

I’ve seen some of that. Kudos for it.

Where’s that unity now though? Questioning Huckabee’s tactic of putting his religion as a number one reason to vote for him is seen as some kind of attack. Where’s the unity? We can’t even discuss this stuff without a couple of you taking it all as a personal attack. Don’t get me wrong as there sometimes are personal attacks sprinkled throughout the criticisms given by various people, but there doesn’t have to be before a couple of you take it as such.

Why am I a hypocrite.

Asking for no attacks while calling people swine (regardless of your previous explanation of how that is really not an attack; let’s call a spade a spade) and saying that they’re damned to Hell for questioning the Good Book as written by man seems pretty damn hypocritical to me.

Unity? “You’re going to Hell.” How’s that for unity?

Lik you have no reason for the level of anger you displayed above.

Anger? More like disgustedness. I’m much too sick with a nasty cold to get very angry. Ain’t happening.

I did not use the word swine deliberately because it was a term peculiar to that time and I wanted to avoid offending you by using it. But, Jesus did use the word, so was He wrong?

According to whom? Man?

Yeah, right. We all know the honesty of that man creature, don’t we?

Maybe Jesus was wrong. Or maybe he was just some guy and then man, hundreds of years later, decided to tell us this great story. I wouldn’t put it past man.

HG - Regarding the part of man in the recording the bible it is true human beings penned most of the bible.  But the biblical claim is that they were inspired by God to speak and record the revelation given through them.  In this regard, it is believed that the bible is not the word of men.

It was still written by man.

It was still written by man.

Ageed, lik.

Gene, I guess you struck a nerve to put it mildly.  That’s alright; it is not hard to do these days.  I agree with you that the Republican Party is narrow minded.  They have a very small tent and it keeps getting smaller.  Voter Registration for Independents and Democrats has been on the rise well before this election.  The Republican Party has real big problems and they will continue to cast a blind eye to it at their political peril. 
The Republican Party is the only party that I hear accusing their own members of not really being a Republican, or not being Republican enough.  It seems kind of weird.  Can Republican’s not have disagreements without trying to expel, intimidate, or made to feel unwelcome their own members of a shrinking party?
You are also right about the “vindictiveness”.  Some of the respondents participating in this blog are perfect examples of this behavior.  Yet, it is not a surprise when the Party leads with this kind of rhetoric.
Where I differ from you is the idea that you are loyal to your party no matter what.  Would you keep going to the same restaurant if they continued to serve you bad food?  Also, the fact that religion is such a big part of the equation with Huckabee is a turn off to me.  I do have faith, but believe it does not belong in the political arena.  The very politicians who use religion to manipulate the masses are usually found later to be hypocrites of the worse kind. 
But don’t get me wrong, I am very happy Huckabee is in this race and hope that he has much success.  Minus Huckabee’s religious injections into the election; he does understand what many American’s are concerned about.  The Republican Party would be doing itself a service to listen to him and even if not support at least stay out of Huckabee’s way.

Where I differ from you is the idea that you are loyal to your party no matter what.

When the alternatives are three slightly different flavors of communism, it’s not really a difficult decision.  I want America to stay American.  We already have the best system, so why “change” it?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

They have a very small tent and it keeps getting smaller… The Republican Party has real big problems and they will continue to cast a blind eye to it at their political peril.

I am not a Republican, I am a Conservative.  Ted Stevens of Alaska is certainly a Republican and a prominent one at that.  George Bush is the most prominent Republican.  But neither is consistently conservative as demonstrated by Bridges to Nowhere and Medicate Prescription Drugs.

What is happening is the Republican Party is becoming more like the central-right Labour Party in the UK of which Tony Blair is the leader.  Notice that the UK Labor Party is quite different from the UK Conservative Party or the Conservative Party of which Canada’s Stephen Harper is the leader.  Or even Nicolas Sarkozy’s UMP in France. 

The governments in France, the UK, and Canada are becoming consistently more and more fiscally conservative and abandoning many of the central tenets of their countries’ economic systems by privatizing and deregulating their economies.  Unfortunately, given folks like Huckabee and McCain leading the Republican primaries and given Bush’s big spending of the last 7 years, the Republican Party is heading towards becoming a Central-Right party.  The Democrat Party is heading towards becoming a hard left party.  That creates a vacuum.  We are headed towards having no true Conservative Party that holds economic values based on Adam Smith.  Instead, we are dominated by Republicans who are not Conservative and believe more and more in a “managed” economy.  That is different from Democrats who want a regulated and controlled economy and are trending towards becoming Socialists.

I will abandon the Republican Party if Huckabee represents the new thinking and the way Republicans intend to govern.  As will many of the great minds behind the party including folks like Limbaugh, possibly Newt, the Cato Institute, the Club for Growth, and so on.  This will be a difficult process for a while, but I will feel no shame in voting against guys like Ted Stevens and Mike Huckabee.  While I do not think Ron Paul is the best alternative, if Republicans abandon Conservatives, many of us will unite behind the next Ron Paul, who will undoubtedly be a more polished and thoughtful Conservative leader and we can expect that the 3-4% of folks that are rallying behind his message will expand considerably once the Libertarian/Conservative/Federalist Party has leadership that demonstrates the ability to do more than talk about the Gold Standard and getting out of Iraq.

Tina, you are obviously speaking of some other group of people, because with the exception of few regulars here ain’t no one toeing any party line. At least among us non-Democrat/socialists. You guys got your feet glued to the party line.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

you are obviously speaking of some other group of people, because with the exception of few regulars here ain’t no one toeing any party line.

Please read Gene’s message that at the beginning of this blog (last paragraph).

Oh, I’ll vote Republican no matter what.  I’m still a Republican, I vote the party not the man

Oh, I’ll vote Republican no matter what. I’m still a
Republican, I vote the party not the man

Do you understand why, Tina?  The Dem Party no longer represents American values.  At best, it has become the Party of Eurosocialism.  Look at their policies.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

That is Gene, darlin’! Don’t get him started on religion, he can lick his eyebrows.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem