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Tuesday, August 19, 2008

Russification and the Kosovo Precedent

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Two major factors underpinning the dynamics of the Georgian Crisis are Russification and the Kosovo Precedent A third major factor goes to the innate fear the Soviets have of invasion and thus their need for Buffer States.

To those unfamiliar with the history of the Soviet Union and the follow-on Commonwealth of Independent States, the argument given by the Russians that they are merely coming to the assistance of ethnic Russians in the breakaway provinces may sound convincing.

A closer examination of the situation reveals that the resurgent Soviets have long implemented a strategy of deporting the native peoples of a vassal state, suppressing all indicia of their national identity to include their language and religion, while importing large numbers of ethnic Russians. This practice has predated Communism in Russia and used under the Czar to Russify any given area. The dual purposes are to dilute the existing nation and cement it to Russia.

The second factor which counts heavily in the thought processes of Putin is the Kosovo precedent.

RUSSIFICATION

Here are some excerpts which cover a swath of time and the broad expanse of the states Russia had swallowed up in its wars of conquest.

Latvia
Deportations and an influx of Russians into Latvia during the Soviet period have resulted in a situation in which native Latvian speakers comprise only 59% of the population.


Lithuania
Lithuanians believe that Moscow wishes to extirpate both the Catholic religion and Lithuanian language and culture. The purpose would of course be forcibly to assimilate the tiny Lithuanian nation into the vast sea of Russians — a practice known is czarist days simply as “russification.”

...

So long as the Lithuanians protest alone, of course, Moscow has more than enough force to repress their discontent. But there is every reason to suppose that there is similar nationalist passion in the Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and other non-Russian republics, not to mention the other two Baltic states of Latvia and Estonia.



Estonia
Estonia’s blossoming relations with Western Europe contrast with its strained relationship with Russia. In September 2000, Estonia angered Russia by instituting a full visa regime at the Estonian-Russian border, which it justified as necessary for its accession to the EU. At the same time, relations were marred by the expulsion of alleged Russian spies from Estonia and Russia’s reciprocal expulsion of alleged Estonian spies. In October 2002, Estonia stripped 1,000 residents, most Russian, of their Estonian citizenship, citing bureaucratic errors made just after independence in 1991. Less than a quarter of Estonia’s 400,000 ethnic Russians hold Estonian citizenship, as most did not qualify under the provision granting automatic citizenship to Russians born in Estonia during its 1918-40 period of independence; most arrived in Estonia after World War II.



Ukraine
Alarmed by the threat of Ukrainian separatism implied by a growing number of school textbooks teaching the Ukrainian language, the Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Pyotr Valuev in 1863 issued a secret decree that banned the publication of religious texts and educational texts written in the Ukrainian language [6]. This ban was expanded by Tsar Alexander II who issued the Ems Ukaz in 1876. All Ukrainian language books and song lyrics were banned, as was the importation of such works. Furthermore, Ukrainian-language public performances, plays, and lectures were forbidden.[7] In 1881, the decree was amended to allow the publishing of lyrics and dictionaries, and the performances opf some plays in the Ukrainian language with local officials’ approval. Ukrainian-only troupes were, however, forbidden.

While officially, there was no state language in the Soviet Union, Russian was in practice in a privileged position. The Ukrainian language was often frowned upon or quietly discouraged, which led to the gradual decline in its usage. Eventually, Russian remains more widely spoken than Ukrainian in many parts of Ukraine, notably most of the urban areas of the east and south.


Remnants of Empire: A special report.; Russians in Central Asia, Once Welcome, Now Flee
Vyacheslav and Tatyana Shapkin, Russians born in Kazakhstan, have had enough. The state collective farm where they live, 62 miles north of here, has not paid them in six months. They are selling everything they own.

They are doing what 300,000 other ethnic Russians in Kazakhstan did in 1994; they are moving back to a Russia they barely know.

The Shapkins are part of one of the largest migrations in the world since the end of the cold war—the quiet, humiliating flight of nearly three million Russians during the last three years from the former Soviet empire to a Russia that does not much want them, except as a focus for nationalist propaganda. Their departures strip struggling and newly independent countries like Kazakhstan of talent and of their multinational character.

...

Problems are mounting high in northern Kazakhstan, where ethnic Russians predominate, making it one of the most important fault lines from the former Soviet Union. There is lots of tinder for those who want to start a fire, splitting Kazakhstan as part of a reordering of the post-Soviet world into a Slavic empire.

Russian nationalists from Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn to Vladimir V. Zhirinovsky, who grew up in Almaty, regard the border between the two countries as both fake and temporary, and usually refer to this region as “southern Siberia.”

...

Northern Kazakhstan is almost 80 percent ethnic Slav, a result of borders drawn by Russians to dilute the nomadic Kazakhs, who today make up only 40 percent of vast Kazakhstan’s population of 17 million. Huge numbers of Kazakhs starved during the Stalin-era collectivization of farmland, and many Russians, Tatars and ethnic Germans were deported here.

Then 40 years ago, Nikita S. Khrushchev announced the Virgin Lands campaign, intended to bring the enormous acreage of pastureland here under the plow. The next 10 years brought hundreds of thousands of young Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians to settle the steppes where Genghis Khan once roamed.

... (exclaimed one disgusted emigrant)

How could Russia declare sovereignty? Sovereignty from whom? From us Russians living outside? It was just a struggle for power between Yeltsin and Gorbachev and it led to the collapse of the whole country!



Kyrgyzstan
For its part, Russia sees aid to Kyrgyzstan as a successful precedent in its new policy of gaining influence in its “near abroad,” the states that once were Soviet republics. Russia does not want a massive in-migration of Russians from the new republics; some 2 million ethnic Russians moved back to Russia between 1992 and 1995, with at least that many again expected by the end of the century. Akayev, on the other hand, must find a way to stem the loss of his Russian population, which already has caused an enormous deficit of doctors, teachers, and engineers.

For these reasons, despite opposition from Kyrgyz nationalists and other independence-minded politicians, in 1995 Akayev granted the request of Russian president Boris N. Yeltsin to review the constitutional provision making Kyrgyz the sole official language. Early in 1996, Kyrgyzstan took legal steps toward making Russian the republic’s second official language, subject to amendment of the constitution. That initiative coincided with the customs union signed with Russia, Kazakstan, and Belarus in February 1996. The long-term success of Akayev’s search for reintegration is questionable because of Kyrgyzstan’s minimal strategic importance and the potential cost to an outside country supporting the republic’s shaky economy.



Kazakhstan
Russia is likely to begrudge China for wheeling and dealing in what it considers its backyard. However, with Russia’s ties to Kazakhstan gradually weakening, its only remaining tool to prevent China from making too many inroads is the FSB. The FSB could react against Kazakhstan’s economic promiscuity by conducting targeted assassinations. But this is not a strategy of first resort, as it risks attracting too much attention. Even without killing people, the FSB can exercise its power over political figures in Kazakhstan to prevent the country from drifting too far out of Russia’s orbit.

After all, one of Russia’s fundamental geopolitical imperatives is retaining Kazakhstan as a buffer state to its south.
Of course, Kazakhstan serves the same purpose for China, which explains the tug-of-war going on between Moscow and Beijing over the resource-wealthy Central Asian nation. But at present, the tide seems to be in China’s favor.


As It Rises, Russia Stirs Baltic Fears
The signs of Russia’s resurgent influence are everywhere in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia: in Kremlin-financed media; in the financing of local politicians and economic development; in a growing assertiveness, encouraged by Moscow, among the third of the Baltic population that is of Russian heritage; in the Kremlin’s manipulation of its energy supplies as a bludgeon.

These tactics — especially the use of Russian cash — have evoked stress in the Baltics that was unthinkable even five years ago.

“What we are afraid of is the very huge money that comes from Russia that can be used to corrupt our officials,” General Kronkaitis said in an interview. “And I’m talking about very large money. Money can then be used to control our government. Then Lithuania, in a very subtle way, over many years perhaps, becomes dominated and loses its independence.”

“Over many years” may be an understatement, Baltic nationalists say. In 2004, Lithuania’s president was impeached for alleged connections to Russia’s secret service and big business.

It all seems part of a strategy by President Vladimir Putin to revive Russian power in much of Eastern Europe.

For the Balts, any move that angers Russia runs huge risks. Last month, for example, the Estonian state prosecutor charged four ethnic Russians with organizing riots in April to protest the government’s move of a statue of a Soviet soldier from the capital to a suburb as the anniversary of victory in World War II neared. The Russian-language press had egged on the protesters.

“There is reason to believe that financial support and advice to organize mass disorders was also received from the Russian Federation,” the prosecutor said. After the riots, hackers briefly paralyzed Estonia’s government and banks, and Estonia said the cyberattacks were traced to Kremlin addresses.

The tensions over the riots come as the Baltic countries are trying to challenge Russia’s energy monopoly.

...

after the Hitler-Stalin nonaggression pact in 1939, Soviet troops swept in and Stalin deported hundreds of thousands of Balts to die in Siberian gulags.

...

After the war came an influx of Russian workers whose presence would, in time, be cited by the Soviets to claim that these states should never again get independence. For its part, the Putin government has campaigned for ethnic Russians to insist on attaining a stronger voice by accepting Baltic citizenship.

KOSOVO PRECEDENT

In NEWSWEEK

During the breakup of the Soviet Union, indigenous groups in the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia fought separatist wars in which they received barely veiled help from the Soviet military. These territories have since enjoyed de facto independence, though they aren’t formally recognized by any state, including Russia. Moscow has granted Russian citizenship to most of their people, while Russian “peacekeepers” continue to “separate” local forces from their Georgian antagonists. This uneasy truce has prevailed since 1993, broken by periodic violent flare-ups.

But on Sept. 9, when Vladimir Putin invited a group of Western experts to dinner, including me, he issued a stern warning. If the West recognizes Kosovo’s independence, Russia may do the same for the former Georgian republics. “It is inadmissible to apply one rule to Kosovo and another to Abkhazia and South Ossetia,” he told us. “Such a policy cannot be ethical and has no future.”



and here
Again as in the case of Kosovo, the politics of double standards will come out in the United Nations. Countries that have recognized the independence of Kosovo are now looking for an argument that Kosovo is a “special case”, which is a complete nonsense. When one goes into the violation of the international law and disregard of the sovereignty of states, as it was done in the case of Kosovo, they can expect the possibility that such a recipe will be applied in all other situations

Comments

1.  This is not the Soviets of recent memory.  They are not wrapping this in the mantle of championing the international proletariat against the evils of Western Capitalism.

2.  This is the first steps in the recreation of the Russian Empire under a new Tsar/Emperor.

3.  Brevity.  You might want to look that word up, and then place your key arguments above the fold and the in depth explanations after the fold.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 02:03 pm

There you go again, MikeZulu, smacking people with facts and whatnot. elinas is going to be SO CROSS at you!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 19, 2008 at 02:19 pm

MZ:  good post.  A little longer than my attention span, but good post.

electnixon on August 19, 2008 at 02:47 pm

1.  This is not the Soviets of recent memory.  They are not wrapping this in the mantle of championing the international proletariat against the evils of Western Capitalism.

Rodney,

I wonder if the “Soviets of recent memory” weren’t really just Russian autocrats using the ideology of Marxism as a raison d’etre and a convenient crutch to stay in power and prominent on the world stage.

The Tsars of old, like their Tartar forebears, weren’t content with mere conquest and paranoia.  They needed the world’s recognition and respect.  Vladimir Putin is no different.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 19, 2008 at 03:03 pm

Thanks fellas.

Sorry about the length.  I guess what I wanted to do is to show that there is a common plan and course of dealing that the Russians have pursued over a long period of time.

The MSM, for the most part, hasn’t been providing this context, giving Leftards an opportunity to say: yes, but what about the Ossetians?

I hope that this background provides some context demonstrating that argument to be ill-informed.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 19, 2008 at 03:05 pm

MZ,

I think its a first-rate post, with a far more rational and nuanced perspective than what’s offered by either the MSM or our own fellow travelers.

Thank you for posting it.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 19, 2008 at 04:17 pm

so your argument relies on a ‘russification’ theory… a conspiracy that dates back to stalin and beyond? mmmkay. airtight narrative you got there, sport.

whatever the demographics in these countries are now, and the language problems they have been having, et cetera… it doesn’t explain any of the recent events in the manner that you are reaching for. you want to merely indict russia as the big bad guy, just like they always were, and ignore the improprieties of the jackasses that we are backing in georgia against them.

never forgive, never forget, never look for new motives. bingo. i thunk you dun figgered it out, sport.

also, i notice that you excluded armenia, azerbaijan, belarus, moldova, tajikistan, turkmenistan, and uzbekistan.

also, the kosovo precedent is good. break it all up. that’s my position. let the people rule their damn selves if they want to. ossetia wants to. azbakir (or whatever that other one is) wants to. are you against that?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 19, 2008 at 06:47 pm

Thanks Bat,

Whether Russification, Russianization or Sovietization exists or not is beyond dispute.  It has, in its various forms existed under the Tartars, the Czars, the Soviets, through to today. 

2ezk8yh.jpg

Muravyov also banned the use of Latin and Gothic scripts in publishing. He was reported saying, What the Russian bayonet didn’t accomplish, the Russian school will.

During the 1920’s the Soviets hoped to coopt nationalist resistance movements by adopting a form of national diversity, but that policy was not to last.

The re-assertion of Russian as the language, culture and ethnicity of being first among many (of some 130 official languages!) soon took place:

In 1938, Russian became a required subject of study in every Soviet school, including those in which a non- Russian language was the principal medium of instruction for other subjects (e.g., mathematics, science, and social studies). In 1939, non-Russian languages that had been given Latin-based scripts in the late 1920s were given new scripts based on the Cyrillic alphabet. One likely rationale for these decisions was the sense of impending war and that Russian was the language of command in the Red Army.

Before and during World War II, Stalin deported to Central Asia and Siberia several entire nationalities for their suspected collaboration with the German invaders: Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Kalmyks, and others. Shortly after the war, he deported many Ukrainians and Balts to Siberia as well.

After the war the leading role of the Russian people in the Soviet family of nations and nationalities was promoted by Stalin and his successors. This shift was most clearly underscored by Communist Party General Secretary Stalin’s Victory Day toast to the Russian people in May 1945.

I would like to raise a toast to the health of our Soviet people and, before all, the Russian people.

I drink, before all, to the health of the Russian people, because in this war they earned general recognition as the leading force of the Soviet Union among all the nationalities of our country.

I would invite any of those who served in the Soviet Army to comment, but within the intelligence community, it was understood that there was a vast gulf between the egalitarianism professed by Soviet propaganda and what actually took place within the armed forces.

The discrimination against non-Russians was often blatant and overt.  If you were a non-Russian, your ability to advance and simply not to be treated with contempt by the Russians was almost nil.

The bottom line is that the trend over many, many years was for an outward expansion of Russian and then Soviet borders and the subject countries by brute force.  Wherever the Soviet boot had been set down, the vassal states were to be transformed into a generally-Russian outlying district, with the sense of separate ethnic and national feelings eradicated through a mixture of force, intimidation, education of the young and suppression of the existing language and expressions of national identity.

Very clearly, Putin’s actions leading up to his invasion of Georgia is a continuation of this practice and an effort to reconsolidate the old Russian empire, this time using language and common ethnicity as a pretext.

The former president Clinton’s massive mistake of interfering with the internal affairs of the former Yugoslavia has established an extremely negative precedent which has been burned into the minds of current Soviet planners. 

While blind to their own hypocrisy, the Soviets pay close attention to any apparent contradictions in Western political stances and the Kosovo Precedent.  In justifying their own actions, the Russian government, and the people their internal propaganda is directed to, look to this precedent as justification for this latest incursion.

Remember, people go to war for their own reasons. They might be wrong.  They might be objectively unjustified, but they are willing to kill and if necessary die for their reasons

For the troop on the ground watching a horizon full of screaming Muzhiks charging at him, it is too late for discussion.  He just knows that he is facing a motivated enemy.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 19, 2008 at 09:09 pm

you keep trying to sell it...

Very clearly, Putin’s actions leading up to his invasion of Georgia is a continuation of this practice and an effort to reconsolidate the old Russian empire

...but i ain’t buying it. The stupid Georgian gave Putin an in. If it was clearcut, it would be clearcut. Its not. Also, its not our place to fight Putin on behalf of stupid thugs.

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 20, 2008 at 05:24 am

Move_Zig,

Your theorem just passed a major hurdle: sparkless arse fuckin buckle “...ain’t buying it.”

BatOne,

Indeed, a lot of us did view the Soviet Union as a Communist maskirovka for an empire which primarily benefited the Russians.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 20, 2008 at 06:05 am

Keep telling us about the Poor, innocent Russians and how they are the victim of hate filled prejudice by all those evil Georgians, Ukraines, Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Fins, Belorussians, Armenians, Kosovars, Chechnyans, Germans, Czechs, ad infinitum.

It is all their fault. Not Putin and his Mafiosi and FSB bandity.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 20, 2008 at 06:08 am

Oh, and spark, history is. Just like reality. Whether you"buy it” or not is irrelevant.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 20, 2008 at 06:12 am

The stupid Georgian gave Putin an in. If it was clearcut, it would be clearcut. Its not. Also, its not our place to fight Putin on behalf of stupid thugs.

Sparkie,

Odd how the more you describe the situation in Georgia today, the more appropriate my comparison yesterday with the situation in the Sudetenland in 1938.  Hitler would have loved your rationalization!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 20, 2008 at 06:29 am

Thanks Fellas.

I figure Spark assumes that his task is simply to be contrarian.  He acts the role of the incensed and ineffectual Mr. Burger of the old Perry Mason series.

2s9oejc.jpg

If you say Right, he says Left.

We say Pah-TAY-toe, he says pah-TAH-toe.

He’s just here to jerk our collective chains.

Otherwise, we’d all just bicker about minor things, just as they noted in BRAVEHEART (ye’d all arr-gyu abuut th’ color av’ sheit! )

And yes, I agree with the proposition that Communism is just a smokescreen to dignify otherwise illegal or sinful behavior and - BTW—the same thing holds true for Islam.

If I’m Christian, if I try to screw 9 year old girls and beat my wife on a regular basis and chop of their clitorii then I’d be in deep, deep Kimshee.

If I am a follower of Islam however, they’d just call me Mohammed.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 20, 2008 at 10:57 am

Move_Zig: 

… his task is simply to be contrarian…

Never was Arbuckle better described in fewer words.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

pparets on August 20, 2008 at 11:07 am

pparets,

I can compete with that (in describing sparkless-arse-fuckin-buckle) :  perverse willful ignorance.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 20, 2008 at 11:10 am

Heh heh.

Actually I expect you two to form a Committee and come out with a Joint Resolution Defining the Sense of the Committee in Determining a Definition of Sparkless-Arse-Fuckin-Buckle as being:

a contrarian of perverse willful ignorance.

While this may be accurate, you are also fulfilling his third task, which is that of Attention Whore.

2ewjugw.jpg


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 20, 2008 at 11:31 am

M_Z

… his task is simply to be contrarian…

you are one of the few people I know who lauds the fact that they think like the next guy.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 20, 2008 at 07:22 pm

Thats the best you got? Really?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 21, 2008 at 03:24 am

kitty
you guys can call names all night long. i’m a contrarian, randy’s an attention whore, etc.

WOW.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 02:32 pm

sparkless-arse-fuckin-buckle: purveyor of perverse willful ignorance.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 21, 2008 at 02:38 pm

randy,
at least i have a will. march in step now.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 02:45 pm

ZIG
You posted on Bush’s role in all this. Why don’t you explain John ‘Manchurian’ McCain’s approach to Russia in view of your theory that he is a communist spy. Anyway, posts like this really help your credibility. You let everyone know you are a fan of bullshitters who go after political opponents with lies.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 03:16 pm

No, no, no

I did NOT call Randy an Attention Whore.

If I were to call Randy anything it might be on the order of a man-boobed catamite, or something like that, but note that I have not called him that.

I just noted that our bong-hitting Yellowstain was an Attention Whore.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

(At least the girl attention whore has nice legs)


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 21, 2008 at 03:42 pm

Zig-Zag

I just noted that our bong-hitting Yellowstain was an Attention Whore.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

While you’re at it, you might as well indict yourself for employing Leftist methods of debate.

-- the Ad Homnium;

Zig-Zag the Lefty!

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 03:58 pm

He’s just here to jerk our collective chains.

It wouldn’t be so easy if there was a little more variety among you ‘independent’ thinkers. What can I say, I’m a real liberal.

Martha
Nussbaum:
Liberalism holds that the flourishing of human beings taken one by one is both
analytically and normatively prior to the flourishing of the state or the nation
or the religious group; analytically, because such entities do not really efface the
separate reality of individual lives; normatively because the recognition of that
separateness is held to be a fundamental fact for ethics, which should recognize
each separate entity as an end and not as a means to the ends of others.

Variety, son. Y’all remind me of a lettuce farm. A bunch of heads, identical… and a bit over watered at that.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 04:26 pm

So, let me get this line of shit straight. Sucking Putin’s cock makes you a “free thinker”? Really?

I thought better of you. Guess that was misplaced.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 21, 2008 at 06:43 pm

kitty

Sucking Putin’s cock

perhaps you missed this post in which I lay out a number of criticisms of Putin I have posted over the last few years. when all of you were concerned with who the democrats are fucking.

kitty, if you want to talk about who’s sucking Putin’s cock, zig-zag is on putin’s side with regard to Kosovo. Him and Putin are both chirping about how this mightn’t of happened if it weren’t for Kosovo.

zig-zag even thinks Milosevic is an angel. now that a Putin cock sucker and a mass-murderer apologist if i’ve seen one.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 09:38 pm

No, I won’t try to dignify myself by saying that I am attempting to win an argument by using an ad homnium method.

I’ve long since quit taking your bait and just enjoy heaping derision on you.

Perhaps when you start debating honestly and quit insulting our troops by comparing them to the Soviet and Iraqi armed thugs, you might earn the honor of a debate.

See?

—all the baiting and shit-stirring can come back and bite you in the butt.  I don’t take you seriously any more.


...for great justice

2eaqln4.jpg

Move_Zig on August 21, 2008 at 09:51 pm

zig-zag
i’ll just get out of the way so you can continue to put your tongue in milosevics ass with putin while kitty cheers from the grandstand.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 21, 2008 at 10:03 pm

Al I see is you telling us how the poor, put upon, innocent Russians are the victims. Prove it.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on August 22, 2008 at 12:56 pm
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