Say Anything Blog

I read this article the other day. I must say, I’m surprised. Card is, by his own admission, a Democrat. But he sees clearly, unlike some of the other flag wavers on the left. They would destroy this ship just to run it.

Oh...being a sci-fi fan I like Card’s books as well. They’re brain food, not light reading.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim:

They would destroy this ship just to run it.

Which is why I have so little respect for them.  Many of them have no real ideas for the future, but are stuck in 60s civil rights, social welfare programs and class warfare.

I was really impressed with Orson’s depth of thought.  It’s been a while since I learned anything from a liberal. 

I also like his books BTW.

The only way to fight terrorism is to isolate and alienate the terrorists from their communities. The current method is only `gasoline on the fire’ to quote some war reporter guy. There will always be terrorism (as long as there are people), but the current methods in the `War on Terrorism’ are just making the problem worse. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for terrorism.

I’ve never read any of his books…

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Try Ender’s Game.

Great book.

The only way to fight terrorism is to isolate and alienate the terrorists from their communities. The current method is only `gasoline on the fire’ to quote some war reporter guy.

The way to fight terrorism is to attack that which causes it.

What causes religious fundamentalism?  Poor education, oppression and totalitarianism.  So how do you reduce terrorism (you’re right to say that it will never end)?  End totalitarianism and oppression.

It’s pretty simple, really.  At least in theory.  Actually doing it is the hard part.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Anarchist Vegan:

The only way to fight terrorism is to isolate and alienate the terrorists from their communities. The current method is only `gasoline on the fire’ to quote some war reporter guy. There will always be terrorism (as long as there are people), but the current methods in the `War on Terrorism’ are just making the problem worse. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for terrorism.

Demonstrating that you didn’t bother to read what he had to say.  Why, then, bother to respond?  Especially when your comments amount to shear demagoguery.

Try Ender’s Game.

Great book.

I’ll do that.

Not that I have any time to read for pleasure any more.

@$#%$%@ blog…

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

What about the Irish Republican Army (IRA)? Were they religious fundamentalists? Were they poorly educated? Is Osama poorly educated? Is Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) poorly educated?

Terrorists are idealist radicals. They exist all over the world, all races and religions, all levels of education. But they are only a tiny minority.

Would Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda etc. be able to exist if they didn’t have popular support? This is the problem. Conventional wars and invasions don’t solve this, in fact the opposite happens and support increases, as Iraq and Lebanon demonstrated.

AV:

Conventional wars and invasions don’t solve this, in fact the opposite happens and support increases, as Iraq and Lebanon demonstrated.

I think you need to look at public opinion poll results before you make brash statements like this.  The evidence is actually the opposite.

AV:

Terrorists are idealist radicals. They exist all over the world, all races and religions, all levels of education. But they are only a tiny minority.

And yes, poverty and social disenfranchisement were factors for people entering the IRA.

Also Ted Kaczynski is insane.  Literally.  So he hardly is a good example.

Terrorists are idealist radicals. They exist all over the world, all races and religions, all levels of education. But they are only a tiny minority.

Yes, terrorists exist all over the world, but where do they seem to be concentrated?  Where do the ideologies they adhere to flow from?

Certainly not from places like America or Canada, etc.

And before you talk about how some of the terrorists caught in recent terror plots were westernized Muslims living in a free society, please note that they were radicalized at mosques with connections back to the middle east or were radicalized during a trip to the middle east.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob,

I second the recommendation for Ender’s Game. Great bedtime, quiet time book.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Terrorists are idealist radicals.

You mean like someone who calls himself “Anarchist Vegan”?

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A vote for the Republicans is a vote for terrorism.

This is a perfect illustration of the inability to think things through.  It’s also known as “magical thinking”.  “If we just stop fighting the terrorists, they will come to love us, and will stop killing us.”

Sure.

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Robert108: Yes, I am an idealist radical. I thought that was obvious. Not all idealist radicals are bad. I am sure the anti-slavery/anti-royalists etc. were seen as idealist radicals back in their day. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I am, or any other idealist radicals are, right. But it does make status-quo-ists wrong if the current systems/regimes can be proven to be sub-optimal.

Carrick: From polls I have seen, support for Hezbollah increased during and after the war. Apparently this was because they were seen to be helping defend Lebanon (like taking out 20, and crippling 5 more, IDF tanks), and then they helped with the reconstruction.

Yes, terrorists exist all over the world, but where do they seem to be concentrated?--Rob

Some seem to be coming from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, both countries are `friends’. Personally, if I was the invading type, Saudi Arabia would have been much higher on the invasion/democratization list than Iraq.

I am late to this party, so I’ll be direct. You can not go wrong reading any of Card’s work, fiction and non-fiction. The man is brilliant. Rob, I highly recommend all of the Ender universe books, though be forewarned, Cards writing is detail dense.

As for being a liberal, he falls more into the modern idealist category. He has never been one to push forced Socialism or any of the other Utopian stupidity. He is more of a “give citizens education and personal freedom and all will be well” kind of Liberal.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

av, where were during WWII?  Conventional wars and invasion were absolutely necessary to stop Hitlers Nazis.--Docdave

It’s lucky that the U.S.S.R. did fight and defeat Nazi Germany (80% of Hitler’s armies anyway, a whole heap of other countries managed to take on the other 20%). But that was before my time, and had nothing to do with children strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up civilians (though the Soviet Army did use dogs to blow up tanks), or nothing to do with crazies flying planes into civilian buildings (maybe it did involve crazies dropping nukes and incindiaries on civilian buildings though).

Too think the `war on terrorism’ is anything like conventional wars between nation states is proof that you just don’t get it Docdave.

Not all idealist radicals are bad.

I’m glad you cleared that up.  Your original statement didn’t make that distinction.

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docdave
you leave Palestine, Indonesia, Pakistan, Somalia, Eritrea, and Sudan out.
The endeavor you have outlined is unfeasible at best.

Not all idealist radicals are bad.
I’m glad you cleared that up.  Your original statement didn’t make that distinction.--Robert108

I wrongly assumed everyone was up to date on set theory. Saying all terrorists are people may be true, but all people are terrorists may not be. Terrorists are a subset of radical idealists, which are a subset of people.

Docdave: I see your point now. Sounds very expensive and very long term. I guess Iraq is the experiment. If Iraq fails, then the rest of the plan will fail. I guess that is why Republicans don’t want Democrats to meddle with their experiment (by cut-and-running).

Terrorists are a subset of radical idealists, which are a subset of people.

Once again, thanks for refining your original statement, which contained no such distinction, nor did it mention “set theory”.  I guess we should have assumed what you didn’t say.  /sarcasm
You made a general statement, dude, and you got caught.

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But it does make status-quo-ists wrong if the current systems/regimes can be proven to be sub-optimal.

Two things very wrong here:

One: “proven”? To whom, and by whom?  Your fairy godmother?

Two: In your dialectic, there are only idealist radicals and pro-status-quo-ers?
The majority of people want to do what makes sense.  The idealist radicals are rarely, if ever, in that group.  I often makes sense to support the status quo, however.

Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

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AV:

Carrick: From polls I have seen, support for Hezbollah increased during and after the war. Apparently this was because they were seen to be helping defend Lebanon (like taking out 20, and crippling 5 more, IDF tanks), and then they helped with the reconstruction.

I won’t argue one way or another on Hezbollah...I haven’t seen any credible polls, have you?

Regarding Iraq: Here is some reality:

Or this:

Actually, it’s not just the United States that has caused this sea change. It is the tactics employed by the terrorists against other Arabs that has chiefly eroded support for them. We’ve simply provided the canvas for the terrorists to draw their own ghoulish self-portraits…

I didn’t spell it out clearly, but to stop a juvenile game of “gotcha!”, the point is that they oppose us because “we’re on their land” or (fill in the blank).  But that doesn’t come close to translating into “increasing support for terrorism”.  And these polls don’t make a good effort to separate attacks on American troops (justifiable because we are in fact occupiers) from attacks on Iraqi civilians.

BTW, here’s another interesting table:

And some interesting conclusions (that I don’t entirely agree with, but still interesting):

There remains considerable antipathy toward the U.S. in Arab and Muslim countries. U.S. favorability is relatively low, and anti-Americanism is driven by negative perceptions of, and opposition to, U.S. foreign policies, such as the war in Iraq, the war on terror, U.S. support for Israel, and U.S. unilateralism.

At the same time, however, there are hopeful signs. There has already been some progress in Jordan, Lebanon, and Morocco, and some population groups, including young people and women, are more favorably disposed toward the U.S. than others. Moreover, support for terrorism and terrorist leaders is declining among many in the region. And finally, there is strong evidence that citizens throughout the region aspire to democratic governance.

While this represents some progress, it will be difficult to bring about a major improvement in America’s image unless we can demonstrate to our critics in the Muslim world that they are wrong about our intentions and policies. And in this regard, actions will always speak louder than words. That certainly was the lesson in Indonesia, where the image of America rebounded in response to our Tsunami aid efforts.

Short of major policy initiatives, there appear to be limits on how much U.S. communication efforts in the region can achieve. Given the magnitude of negative attitudes in the Muslim world, such efforts will be mostly defensive, making the best of a bad situation - correcting misinformation, softening hostility by emphasizing the well-regarded aspects of America. These are likely to bring about only marginal changes in America’s image. In the end, it is only reaction to major policies that can significantly move the needle.

The main “problem” for the US in the Arab world is our alliance with Israel.  Only the maturation of Islam to accept Israel will change that.  Nothing else really makes any difference, IMO.
Even then, selling out Israel wouldn’t change their present mindset against us as “Crusaders”.  It’s like dealing with violent teenage punks-with modern weapons.

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AV:

It’s lucky that the U.S.S.R. did fight and defeat Nazi Germany (80% of Hitler’s armies anyway, a whole heap of other countries managed to take on the other 20%).

Yeah, AV.  The USSR defeated Germany all by itself.  LOL.

You lefties are pretty lousy at your military history.

Carrick: I wasn’t thinking `gotcha’ when reading your first set of stats, I was probably thinking the same as you, as opposition to the `War on Terrorism’ went up, so did the opposition to terrorism. According to some Canadian war correspondent/analyst, he says after a couple of years, people get sick of a war and want peace again. (And after awhile, they can be persuaded in favour of a war again.)

The 80% is the number of German Army divisions being fought by the Soviet Union vs. the rest of the participants from 1943 onwards. It was the Lend-Lease Studebaker trucks and railroad tracks supplied that played a huge part in mobilising the Soviet Army. But most of the arms they used were built by the Soviet Union themselves.

Once again, thanks for refining your original statement, which contained no such distinction, nor did it mention “set theory”.--Robert108

Sorry buddy, I was quite aware as I wrote `Terrorists are idealist radicals.’ that I was an idealist radical, yet not I am not terrorist (don’t like violence). That’s why I didn’t include the world `all’ in the sentence.

AV:

The 80% is the number of German Army divisions being fought by the Soviet Union vs. the rest of the participants from 1943 onwards. It was the Lend-Lease Studebaker trucks and railroad tracks supplied that played a huge part in mobilising the Soviet Army. But most of the arms they used were built by the Soviet Union themselves.

Ok, I’ll buy that, though I think the 80% is a little high (2/3’s is probably closer).  It took a group effort to defeat Germany.  The Soviets could not have done it without us and vice versus.

Carrick: Don’t forget the Bell P-39 AiraCobra.

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The way to fight terrorism is to attack that which causes it.

What causes religious fundamentalism?  Poor education, oppression and totalitarianism.  So how do you reduce terrorism (you’re right to say that it will never end)?  End totalitarianism and oppression.

It’s pretty simple, really.  At least in theory.  Actually doing it is the hard part.

I agree with the statements above by Rob.  I believe that the U.S. is not doing enough to end totalitarianism and oppression.  We need lots more diplomacy with countries in Asia and the Middle East to get them to change their governments and the way their own people are treated.  I might be wrong about this, but withholding financial aid to governments seems like it should be a 1st step to those countries that need to change.  There should be more carrot and stick options to the countries over there and incentives to get them to change.

On the military front, we cannot expand our war right now.  Iraq needs to get settled soon on the ground or we risk the possibility of not being able to extract ourselves out whenever we need to.  We have war on two fronts of the “War on Terror.” It’s either time to go into Iraq with way more force and squash the insurgency or it’s time to pull out.  I prefer to squash the insurgency, but this half-assed plan we are following needs to stop.  Once Iraq is done, we can go back and finish Afghanistan.  I estimate that will be 4 or 5 years down the road to complete both missions.

`Terrorists are idealist radicals.’

Sorry to have to tell you this, but without any modifiers, the present tense form of the verb “to be”, in this case “are” is grammatically an “equals” sign(=).
So, what you originally said was: “Terrorists=idealist radicals.” You were just sloppy, and you got caught.

Media uncovers more Palin stories in one weekend than Obama stories in two years. Still no bias detected

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Robert108:
Terrorists are people.
See how that worked. Now try:
People are Terrorists.
See how that didn’t work.
Maybe your `equals’ theory is more like a `belongs to’ theory or similar. I aint an Englishicist though.

Terrorists are people.  True
See how that worked. Now try:
People are Terrorists.  Not true
See how that didn’t work.
Maybe your `equals’ theory It’s not a theory. is more like a `belongs to’ theory or similar. I aint an Englishicist though.  True that.

Your original statement was false; that was my point.  You were sloppy.

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AV, semantic arguments aside on the meaning of “is”, I don’t agree that all terrorists are ideological radicals, or even most.  I don’t even think Osama bin Laden is an ideologicalradical, anymore than Hitler was.  Radicalism is his schtick, it’s what he uses to get followers.

Probably this is something that would benefit from some good sociological studies.  If you don’t understand the root causes, how can you effectively eliminate or reduce the phenomenon?

Terrorists are murderous, violent thugs.

“Idealist radicals” are posers.

Clear enough?

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