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Wednesday, November 07, 2007

Quare Persia Delenda Est

"Why Persia Must Be Destroyed”

Our own Ken McCracken has opined that ”Attacking Iran Is A Really, Really Bad Idea.”

This approaches the level of a tautology.  Wars are inherently bad things; innocents are killed, property is destroyed, human suffering is increased.  Yet wars are sometimes both necessary and the less evil option. 

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

I will thus grant Ken’s Point: Attacking Iran would indeed be a bad thing.  But would it be better or worse in terms of foreseeable consequences than tolerating the status quo?

Iran as terrorism central

While the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is correctly viewed as the wellspring of Wahabbism and thus the spread of radical Islam, they are not the primary sponsor of Islamist terrorism.  That distinction belongs to Iran.

The Qods Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Pasdaran) are the mullahs primary tool for directing, funding, and equipping Islamist terrorism world wide.  They are the paymasters behind Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the Mahdi Army, and the Taliban.  They have links to virtually every Islamic terrorist organization at some level.

Iran is also a principal supplier of arms and explosives to foreign fighters operating in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Iran’s War on the United States

Iran has both technically and actively been making war on the United States for nearly thirty years.  The revolution which brought the mad mullahs to power began with the seizure of a United States Embassy and the imprisonment of our mission to Iran.  They have remained active against the United States by attacking the Marine Barracks in Beirut Lebanon via their Hezbollah proxies, and continue their hostilities via proxy to this day by arming and supporting various insurgent groups in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Ignoring the Problem has not improved the situation

Despite an unending string of provocations, the United States has not waged war against Iran.  The closest we have come to directly engaging was a limited naval campaign, and we have otherwise limited ourselves to containment (limited support of Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war), diplomacy and economic sanctions.  Demonstrably these lesser measures have not succeeded in altering the behavior of the mad mullahs.

Ramifications of conflict with Iran

Ken listed the downside thus:

The worst-case downside is appallingly bad. It could rally the Iranian population behind that mullahs - a population that right now is very unhappy with their leadership, and somewhat pro-American. That would all be swept away, and even worse, it could rally the majority Sunni muslims behind the minority Shi’ites in Iran in a way no other event possibly could. It would be the polarization of the West versus Islam that Osama bin Laden has long been seeking. It could end the disunity in the Muslim world that thus far has worked to the West’s advantage.

It could rally the Iranian population.  But then again Iran’s population is far from heterogeneous.  It is not even majority Persian, and only barely majority Shia.  The odds are at least as good that a disabling attack would instead result in a shattering of national unity and civil war.

It could indeed cause Shia and Sunni to join in common cause.  Or not.  Much the same was claimed with regard to invading Iraq.  What resulted was an increase in sectarian violence, not its remission.

As regards being a polarizing event, almost certainly not.  There is no love to lose between the Arabs and the Persians, and scarcely any more between Shia and Sunni.

Ken further argues that “Anti-Zionism” is the one tie that binds Muslim states.  At a rhetorical level, this is certainly true.  In practice, it is a rhetorical point.  Every Arab nation which has made war upon the state of Israel has drawn back a bleeding stump.

As regards Iran stepping up it’s activities in Iraq, their ability to do so would depend on the resources they have left after the cessation of military operations by the United States.  I would argue that an operation closely resembling what I proposed as Operation Carthage would leave Iran with few resources and fewer options when it comes to stirring the pot in Iraq, and everywhere else its Qods force operates.

Ken’s one truly laughable assertion is that Iranian overt military operations would result in anything other than disaster for the Iranians.  He seems to have missed the fact that Iran and Iraq engaged in a decade long war which was a bloody stalemate.  In the aftermath of that stalemate the United States twice went through the experienced and re-armed Iraqi Army like shit through a goose.  Iran has not been able to re-arm to the extent that Iraq was able to and has not consistently trained it’s armed forces in the intervening decades.  To suggest they would be as credible a force, or more credible than the Iraqi’s were, is asinine.  A conventional war between Iran and the American Forces currently in Iraq and Afghanistan would effectively gut the Iranian ability to wage war, and would likely end with the occupation of Tehran.

Iran’s push for Nuclear Weapons

Glaringly omitted from Ken’s analysis was the driving factor for military operations against Iran; their nuclear weapons program.  Israeli intelligence now holds that Iran will have working nuclear weapons by 2009.  The nuclear histories of South Africa and Pakistan lend credence to this assessment.  The wild card here of course is the Mad Mullahs who actually run Iran.  It is no stretch of the imagination to posit a first Iranian nuclear test occurring over Tel Aviv.  The consequences of such a use would make all of Ken’s worst case scenarios pale in comparison.

Given a choice between all of Ken’s worst case scenarios, and the specter of the Mad Mullahs armed with nuclear weapons, military action now becomes the far lesser of the potential evils.

Comments

I agree with the premise that Iran must be destroyed but I stand by the opinion that it does not need to be us that does it.

Ken’s fear that an attack by us on Iran would cause otherwise bickering factions of Islam to unite is probably as close to reality as any pundit can get.

I agree with your point that Iran is probably fairly inneffective as a cohesive fighting force - lotsa bluster, no foundation - but the PR disater of an attack by us would counter much of that advantage.

We need to be the puppet masters that cause the Arab nations in the area to attack Iran. That’s what they’re doing to us. They want to manipulate us into attacking Iran. Like I said before, they’ll howl publicly but high five each other behind closed doors.

Could we defeat them and in a hurry? Sure. Should we? No.

Let’s get others to do OUR dirty work for a change.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on November 7, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Pilgrim,

I doubt that the return of Mohammed would serve to unify his erstwhile followers.

None of the negative outcomes mentioned by Ken comes close to the consequences of an Iranian nuclear strike on Israel and inevitable counter strikes.  The clock is ticking.

Pay now or pay with compounding interest later is a dilemma only for those who are mathematically challenged.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on November 7, 2007 at 02:26 pm

I will thus grant Ken’s Point: Attacking Iran would indeed be a bad thing.

I recall that the naysayers said similar things prior to our engagement in Iraq.  How long did that ground war last?  About 3 weeks?  On strictly a military position our forces would make equal hash out of the Iranian forces.  No, our problems with Iran are purely political worrying how the rest of the world will react, especially the Russians and Chinese.  However, I believe that if the Iranians do get the capability to develop nuclear bombs, the Israelis will make our decision for us with a surgical air strike similar to the one they recently did in Syria.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on November 7, 2007 at 05:39 pm
Avatar for sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle

we should not attack Iran. we should attack Saudi Arabia and set the whole 9/11 mess right once and for all.

also, Rodney, since you know what a tautology is, can you explain it to Pilgrim and Kenny (not Ken). perhaps if you explain it they won’t label it ‘moron talk’.

BTW, can you refrain from using ‘moron talk’ in your posts. It makes Pilgrim, Bikebubba, and Kenny feel little.

Oddly enough… I have agreed with Ken a couple times now. On Nietzsche and on Iran. Wow.

Also, given our current fiscal and recruitment status… do you still feel the same way you did in Nov?

When Hilldog told the NYTimes she would destroy Iran… did it get you all ‘excited’ or what?

sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle on June 6, 2008 at 01:21 pm

sparkless arse-fuckin-buckle says:

we should not attack Iran.

Never mind nearly 30 years of ever escalating provocations and war by proxy on the part of Iran, insists the sparkless one…

we should attack Saudi Arabia and set the whole 9/11 mess right once and for all.

Instead we should attack one of the few nations in the Middle East which is actually working on supressing its radical jihadi’s.  Clever that.

also, Rodney, since you know what a tautology is, can you explain it to Pilgrim and Kenny (not Ken). perhaps if you explain it they won’t label it ‘moron talk’.

Sorry, no.  Anything and everything which issues from the “mind” of carbunckle is presumptively ‘moron talk’ until proven otherwise.

Oddly enough… I have agreed with Ken a couple times now. On Nietzsche and on Iran. Wow.

Even your broken clock will be “right” twice a day.

Also, given our current fiscal and recruitment status… do you still feel the same way you did in Nov?

An astute observer (which, demonstrably carbunckle is not) would have noted the recent change to my signature block which now links back to this article and correctly arrived at the conclusion that I still believe an Operation Carthage type action against the Mad Mullah’s is still in the best strategic interests of our Republic and the World.

When Hilldog told the NYTimes she would destroy Iran… did it get you all ‘excited’ or what?

It was a Clinton’s lips moving, which is 90% likely to make whatever was said a lie.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2008 at 01:44 pm
Avatar for sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle

Never mind nearly 30 years of ever escalating provocations and war by proxy on the part of Iran, insists the sparkless one…

perhaps that’s what we can expect following a thirty year period of oppression we instigated beginning in ‘53.

one of the few nations in the Middle East which is actually working on suppressing its radical jihadi’s.

they do that within their own country to hold onto power and build radical madrasas everywhere else at an alarming rate. you are selective and tricky, but its still shit.

other than that, i agree with you about hilldog lying, but not the idea that we need to invade iran. the population there is more moderate and modern that any other in the ME. just because their leader is a dick, doesn’t mean we should alienate the last potential populous foothold we have over there. the youth in iran just need some video games and youtube. like rushdie said on colbert last night… your position is ill informed and reactionary. clearly you are one of those types who is not content unless there is a pound of flesh somewhere on the horizon. i say go for the Saudis. they lie and placate us while they seek to destroy us. at least the dick leader of iran speaks his mind and isn’t a little pantomime pussyfooter like the saudi princes. backstabbing cunts.

honestly though, we will do well not to alienate the population of iran. if we ignored that dick leader, they’d string him uup in a matter of weeks. he derives his only mandate from ‘protecting’ them from us. we should just let them get after him, perhaps egging it on with PSPs, playboys, and six packs of pabst blue ribbon.

I also like Syria better than I like Saudi Arabia.

sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle on June 6, 2008 at 02:05 pm

sparkless arse-fuckin-buckle now says:

i agree with you about hilldog lying

Another of those rare (twice a day) happenstances…

but not the idea that we need to invade iran.

You either did not read Operation Carthage or you have just reset the goal posts.  Either way it moots the rest of your “point.”

I also like Syria better than I like Saudi Arabia.

Why am I unsurprised you find a bruatal socialist dictatorship more amenable than a parliamentary monarchy?


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2008 at 02:27 pm
Avatar for sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle

a parliamentary monarchy! hee hee hee. is that like a shade of blue-orange?

sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle on June 6, 2008 at 02:50 pm
Avatar for sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle

i saw that carthage post. its orders, not evidence. i like facts, arguments, details. not orders and plans. sorry to let you down.

sparkie ar-fuckin-buckle on June 6, 2008 at 02:52 pm

sparkless arse-fuckin-buckle now says:

i saw that carthage post. its orders, not evidence. i like facts, arguments, details. not orders and plans. sorry to let you down.

Actually, that was the bare bones of an Operational Plan (OP-PLAN).  It would be well characterized as a suppression of defenses culminating in a raid in force, which differs from an invasion in that one has no intention of holding the ground for any prolonged period of time in a raid.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2008 at 03:13 pm

sparkie:  Hate to intrude on your blue/orange fantasy, but you might want to take a minute or two and study the consitutional monarchies in Great Britain, Belgium, Sweden and Monaco for starters.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“Glory is not a conceit. It is not a decoration for valor. Glory belongs to the act of being constant to something greater than yourself, to a cause, to your principles, to the people on whom you rely, and who rely on you in return.”
Senator John McCain, Faith of Our fathers

pparets on June 6, 2008 at 03:21 pm
Avatar for sparkie arbuckle

if you can take out the irani leader, have at it. but the population of iran doesn’t deserve or need any of that.

sparkie arbuckle on June 6, 2008 at 03:21 pm
Avatar for sparkie arbuckle

pparets
there is absolutely no equivalence between the saudi setup and the countries you have named… or perhaps its name only. or maybe monaco is similar… but the other three are decidedly not, IMO.

sparkie arbuckle on June 6, 2008 at 03:26 pm

sparkless-arse-fuckin-buckle offers:

if you can take out the irani leader, have at it. but the population of iran doesn’t deserve or need any of that.

It has already been pointed out to you more than once that such an assassination would be a violation of an executive order first implemented by James Earl “dhimmi” Carter.  Furthermore, to effectively remove the mad mullahs from power you’d have to get them all, and render the Revolutionary Guards hors de combat.

Furthermore, the only egregious comparison in this thread was your comparison of Saudi Arabia to Syria and Iran.

Do keep up the good work of being a superlative bad example!


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 30, 2008 at 04:14 pm
Avatar for TheSteelGeneral

Ceterum censeo America esse delendam!

IDK, an Iranian nuke will restore nuclear balance to the region. Let’s assume that Obama is forced to attack Iran, should we call it irony or fate that a man with the middle name of Hussein does this? You can translate ‘Hussein’ with the western ‘Christopher’.

But let’s get real. If Iran was nuked by Israel or attack by Arabia, do we really think that they would not hit back? for sure they already have dirty bombs filled with nukewaste and the capability to deliver them.

Do we really think that Israel wouldn’t use their nukesubs to nuke Iran back? That those subs have as sole reason of being to ensure M.A.D. in the M.E.?

Of course.

All this salivating speculation about nuking Iran, it’s nice and all but it really doesn’t help. Shall we talk nuke suitcases on us soil now? run through a couple of options, which might put ideas in a few terrorists heads? good idea? or bad?

TheSteelGeneral on September 29, 2008 at 07:50 pm

Take your best shot.

A nuke in the hands of the mad mullahs is a disaster on short time.

Nor has Iran lately been the victim of aggression.

Nor have I suggested nuking Iran.

Nice troll, read up and try harder next time.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on September 29, 2008 at 08:09 pm
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