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Tuesday, March 27, 2007

On Moral Absolutism…

Wow. This one is an amazing thing to think about. Many, on both sides of the aisle, believe in this whether or not they claim to. Many associate the liberal left with moral relativism, but their token issues and the main emotional brunt of their social justice platform makes an assumption of absolute morals of one form or another.

Let’s look at an example. Many in the left feel that many states in the Islamic world violate women’s rights on a regular basis. States like Saudi Arabia and Iran would be excellent examples.

Saudi Arabia goes so far as to ban women from driving cars. While this example is a bit exteme, its intuitive that women’s rights groups in the US have a significant problem with this. They view it as a right’s violation and a severe injustice - which it is, in the US. Intuition also tells us that these type of moral or societal criticisms rely on some concept of moral absolutes or another for their rationalization. This strikes me as bizarre, given the general acceptance of moral relativism among the left.

Furthermore, if a country is to have laws that do not align, more or less, with the views and general morality of the population being governed, they must rule and enforce these laws with an iron fist or become weak and unstable. This is the basic rationale behind democracy, I believe. Basicly put, the best type of government for any given state is one whos laws and morality align with the beliefs and moral ontology of the population. States who have and enforce laws that are in opposition to the wishes of the masses must have some sort of oppressive mechanism by which this unjust (here I use a cenception of justice that is based on the general belief set of the population it is applied to) form of government perpetuates itself in order to not become unstable and vulnerable. So, in effect, when the US left cries out for women’s rights in these type of states, because these rights do not align with the general belief set of the population, they are crying out for an oppressive government to step in and enforce these types of laws with an iron fist, as that would be the only reasonable means by which a government can foist laws viewed as undersirebale on any given population.

The right is more generally accepted as backing moral absolutism. While this is not an across-the-board type of thing, many on the right hold Christian and constitution-based morality as being absolute, metaphyscally objective, something stronger than the type morals that fluctuate based on the society they are applied to. This is necessarily a bizarre stance since the basic idea of any type of morality being entailed in the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe is a strange and difficult stance to defend. Furthermore, the idea that the redactors who penned the old and new testaments and the founding fathers of the US were metaphysical savants who had access to objective truths, an impossibility for huamnkind, is vulnerable to attack. Obviously its clear that the ‘realists’ of Bush Sr.’s administration probably do not endorse objective morality, but the hawkish nature of the current administration and the moral superiority assumed in the spreading of US democracy on the world, and the ‘idealist’ foreign policy camp, clearly rely on intuitions derived from the chauvinistic idea that not only does our constitution align with certain objective metaphysical truths, our morals do the same.

So, despite the bizarre arguments needed to back up moral absolutism, a majority of the politicians on both sides of the aisle in current American politics seem to have an implicit belief in this type of morality. Is this intuituve? Are we simply being emotionally manipulated into believing with them? What’s going on here?

Comments

This is necessarily a bizarre stance since the basic idea of any type of morality being entailed in the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe is a strange and difficult stance to defend.

Is English your first language?  What the hell does that mean?

Furthermore, the idea that the redactors who penned the old and new testaments and the founding fathers of the US were metaphysical savants who had access to objective truths, an impossibility for huamnkind, is vulnerable to attack.

I’m not Christian, but you need to talk to someone who is before you make up stuff about their religion.

Obviously its clear that the ‘realists’ of Bush Sr.’s administration probably do not endorse objective morality, but the hawkish nature of the current administration and the moral superiority assumed in the spreading of US democracy on the world, and the ‘idealist’ foreign policy camp, clearly rely on intuitions derived from the chauvinistic idea that not only does our constitution align with certain objective metaphysical truths, our morals do the same.

The ideal of spreading “Democracy” (with a big ‘D’wink is at odds with your statements.  We’re not trying to push “our values” on others… we’re trying to let them decide their “own values” without a dictator deciding them for the populace. 

Personally, I’d prefer that we don’t try to spread “Democracy” since it’s a failed idea… rather we should spread the foundations of the “Republic”.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 08:40 am

Seth
Learn to read. Ass. Get out a dictionary. All that is perfectly legal english.

we’re trying to let them decide their “own values” without a dictator deciding them for the populace

what about when the palestinians elect Hamas? what then? respect their decision?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 08:50 am

Knowing the difference between right and wrong is not “moral absolutism” to anyone but you, Sparkie.  Grow up.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 27, 2007 at 08:54 am

r108
I’m sorry this post went over your head.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 08:58 am

So that’s it then, eh, Sparkie?  You just call me an Ass, because you think that throwing a bunch of words together somehow a sentence makes.  No response regarding your odd notion that God can’t influence Humans.

I wanna be like you!

The synergies of the global campaign on impact analysis and the quantifiable composite market mandate that we model the educational system to match the expected output expenditures.

Oh!!!  Lookie!!!  I can be Sparkie!!!!  WHOO HOOO!!!

Neener Neener!!  My statement makes as little sense as yours! 

This is necessarily a bizarre stance since the basic idea of any type of morality being entailed in the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe is a strange and difficult stance to defend.

Are you trying to suggest that claiming God instilled morality is hard to defend?  Is that your point Sparkie?  Can you respond without being snarkie, Sparkie? 

Ass… Indeed.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 09:43 am

Seth
Your inability to comprehend the structure or vocab used in my sentence does not mean its nonsense. You said it was and that’s why I called you an ass. Simple. I am not going to simplify it for you. Like I said, get out a dictionary and educate yourself instead of accusing me of nonsense. Get it? If you can’t comprehend the sentence, maybe you should find some other thread to comment on. BTW - the sentence says nothing about God. I think that’s pretty clear. If it did, ‘God’ would be in the sentence. Okay?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 09:56 am

Seth

necessarily - look up the difference between necessary and sufficient. you should know it.

bizarre - wierd, kooky

stance - position

basic idea - basic idea

type of morality - set of rights and wrongs if you will

entailed in - given within

the metaphysical mechanisms - all the natural physcial laws and existents in the universe, taken in whole

the universe - a big thing with stars and stuff

strange - wierd

difficult - hard

stance - position

defend - the act of defence


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 10:02 am

Seth
BTW.

So that’s it then, eh, Sparkie?  You just call me an Ass

Fuck yourself. You come out and accuse me of not speaking english (for using a fancier version of the language than you are familiar with) and then bitch when I call you an ass? You are clearly out of your comfort zone. I think Pokemon comes on soon… don’t miss it.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 10:12 am

Okay, it’s going to be hard, but I’ll try to make sense of this:

This is necessarily a bizarre stance

So, by necessity, “This”, which means

[many on the right hold Christian and constitution-based morality as being absolute, metaphyscally objective, something stronger than the type morals that fluctuate based on the society they are applied to.]

is, according to you, a bizarre stance. 

since

for the reason that

the basic idea of any type of morality being entailed in the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe is a strange and difficult stance to defend.

Their stance is difficult to defend???!?!  Did I get it right? 

Metaphysical commonly means ethereal and since you tie it to Christianity, I have to assume, “Godly”.  You state “metaphysically objective"… (which is some kind of oxymoron since none of us could know a metaphysically objective stance on ANYHTING… but perhaps you meant “Metaphysically SUBjective"…

Again… What the hell does this mean?  You come full circle with a bunch of words that say “if you take a stance that is, to you, bizarre, then that stance is difficult to defend. 

Christians and Constitutional absolutists do not derive their morality from the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe.  Pray, tell me how they could?

Constitutional absolutists derive their morals from… Christian ethics, I suppose.  Christians derive their ethics and morals from “the Word of God” which they call the Bible. 

It’s interesting that you don’t know that.

You state that “many on the right hold Christian and constitution-based morality as being absolute”, yet the founders provided a method of modifying the Constitution.  I could potentially see your argument about Christians having an “absolute” set of morals, but what is absolute about the Constitution? 

The Constitution is the “Law” of the land… It is absolute in the US.  But it can be changed… thus it’s not absolute in it’s current wording. 

Are you trying to suggest that the Constitution should NOT be the absolute LAW of the US?  If so, then what do you suggest we replace it with?  We would need to have SOME absolute Law… Wouldn’t we?  How would we resolve disputes?  How could that be fair?

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 10:29 am

Sparkie,

Fuck yourself. You come out and accuse me of not speaking english (for using a fancier version of the language than you are familiar with) and then bitch when I call you an ass? You are clearly out of your comfort zone. I think Pokemon comes on soon… don’t miss it.

Ruffled some feathers, eh, Sparkie?  You go round and round with moral absolutism and relativism and can’t bother to explain yourself? 

Who’s the absolutist, Sparkie?  Where do you derive your morals from?

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 10:32 am

Metaphysical commonly means ethereal

i said metaphysical machinery. and no, metaphysical does not mean that.

Christians and Constitutional absolutists do not derive their morality from the metaphysical mechanisms present in the universe.  Pray, tell me how they could?

They couldn’t, but they claim their morality is objective, absolute, and therefore they claim that it is comehow entailed in the metaphysical machinery of the universe… which is very silly. As you point out.

what is absolute about the Constitution?

inalienable rights we are all born with, for example.

It is absolute in the US.

yea right. naive.

Are you trying to suggest that the Constitution should NOT be the ... LAW of the US?

What? I am not. What dark hole did you extract that from?

Who’s the absolutist, Sparkie?

Hg and r108 come to mind.

Where do you derive your morals from?

not from god or the constitution. i am not so stupid as to need someone to scare or force me into believing this is good or that is bad. when did this start being about MY morality anyway?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 11:03 am

Sparkie,

what is absolute about the Constitution?

inalienable rights we are all born with, for example.

I guess that’s the case then… okay.  Are you suggesting that this is bad?

It is absolute in the US.

yea right. naive.

I know that some judges have used law from other governments, but they’re not supposed to… How am I naive in thinking that the US Constitution is supposed to be the final word or law of the land?

Are you trying to suggest that the Constitution should NOT be the ... LAW of the US?

What? I am not. What dark hole did you extract that from?

Come on man… If I am naive for thinking that the US Constitution is the highest law of the land… then what are you saying????  (which has been my point from the beginning)

Where do you derive your morals from?

not from god or the constitution. i am not so stupid as to need someone to scare or force me into believing this is good or that is bad. when did this start being about MY morality anyway?

If you decry, as stupid or bizarre, the moral values of conservatives who base their morality on Christian ethics or on Constitutional principles, then the question of “from where do you derive your own” is relevant, no?  You wrote the post about moral absolutism…

What reasons do you have to do whatever it is that you consider to be moral?  What do you consider to be moral? 

Is theft moral?  Is murder moral?  Is covetous moral?  Is sex with animals moral? 

Where do you get morals from, if not the law (be it the constitution or your religion)? 

What’s the point of following a moral if not fear of a consequence?

Pot, Kettle’s calling.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 11:24 am

Sparkie,

Metaphysical commonly means ethereal

i said metaphysical machinery. and no, metaphysical does not mean that.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
met·a·phys·i·cal (mět’ə-fĭz’ĭ-kəl) - adj. 

1. Of or relating to metaphysics.
2. Based on speculative or abstract reasoning.
3. Highly abstract or theoretical; abstruse.
4.
1. Immaterial; incorporeal. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Supernatural.
5. often Metaphysical Of or relating to the poetry of a group of 17th-century English poets whose verse is characterized by an intellectually challenging style and extended metaphors comparing very dissimilar things.

Sorry Sparkie. 

metaphyscally objective, ... metaphysical mechanisms ... metaphysical savants who had access to objective truths, an impossibility for huamnkind, is vulnerable to attack.

You used “metaphysical” to mean God at LEAST once with “metaphysical savants”.  I’d claim that you used Metaphysical to mean “God” more than that, but your version of Engrish obtuse to comprehend be it.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 11:43 am

Seth
This post’s purpose was to expose the left as basing their entire emotional appeal around a type of morality that they do not believe in. Did you understand that part?
Furthermore, morality is necessarily subjective. You and I both agree on that. That is the point. Capiche?

I also am drawing out a paradox. You ignored my question about respecting the democratic decisions of the palestinians - i.e. the election of Hamas to office. Why don’t you answer that and i’ll answer your questions.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 11:44 am

You used “metaphysical” to mean God at LEAST once with “metaphysical savants”.

I was using definition #1 the whole time.

1. Of or relating to metaphysics

Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the nature of the world. It is the study of being or reality.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 11:49 am

Metaphysical machinery is a widely used bit of philisophical jargon.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 11:52 am

sorry. botched the link. but i defined it above.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 11:53 am

I also am drawing out a paradox.

That’s was pretty subtle… /sarcasm all that bad Engrish just to set up a strawman?  Sheesh.

You ignored my question…

I didn’t ignore it… I just had other things that I wanted to understand.

about respecting the democratic decisions of the palestinians - i.e. the election of Hamas to office. Why don’t you answer that and i’ll answer your questions.

I guess you think I am an authority… okay…

If it was a true “election” and that’s what the people decided, then fine… Let Hamas represent the people who live in the area referred to as “Palestine”.  Jimmy Carter certified it, which makes me think that it was a farce and the people did not choose to legitimize Hamas… But I can’t prove that, so fine…

However, if Hamas commits or supports acts of terror then we no longer play with them… Ooops… they already did… I guess that means that the Hamas government is not stable.  We should only support governments that are stable and, preferably, a democratic chosen style of leadership. 

If a country, via vote, elect a dictatorship and it’s stable, then fine…

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 12:14 pm

I was using definition #1 the whole time.

1. Of or relating to metaphysics

Ah… the “Matrix” question…

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 12:16 pm

all that bad Engrish just to set up a strawman?  Sheesh.

What are you talking about?

We should only support governments that are stable and, preferably, a democratic chosen style of leadership.

If a country, via vote, elect a dictatorship and it’s stable, then fine…

you are flip flopping. so we should support democracy only when the democratic wishes of any country align with what we believe they should wish for? bullshit. that ain’t democracy. you are the personification of the paradox i was getting at. flip flopper, hypocrite.

not only that you say we should support stability over democracy? democracy makes for stable governments because the government is aligned with the will of the people and therefore faces no threats of the population destabilizing the government. when we don’t like the descision of a certain democracy and declare it instable, that’s BS. we cannot claim we are out to spread democracy and then penalize people for voting for hamas. that is a laughable fallacy. c’mon seth.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 12:24 pm

If a country, via vote, elect a dictatorship and it’s stable, then fine…

The people “electing” a dictatorship?  That’s a good one!


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 27, 2007 at 12:25 pm

The people “electing” a dictatorship?  That’s a good one!

It’s happened all throughout history.  Many of the “Lords” of England were so “elected”.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Ah… the “Matrix” question…

very good seth. appearance vesus reality is one of the main questions metaphysics deals with. ‘what exists?’ is another. the latter is what i am concerned with. generally whether or not any objective morals exist. metaphysics also deals with mereology. the study of parts and wholes. its a great discipline. a little abstract and a little hard to get into because of the vocab and jargon, but really cool stuff to think about.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Avatar for HG

Moral relativism cannot be pracitically applied because it is inconsistent with the reality of the moral conscience. You’d think the moral consciousness of professing relativists and absolutists, (that moral consciousness is universal), would bespeak the reality of moral absolutes.  For most people, it does.

HG on March 27, 2007 at 12:49 pm

HG
What, pray tell, is “the reality of the moral conscience”?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 12:53 pm

You are flip flopping.

Where?

so we should support democracy only when the democratic wishes of any country align with what we believe they should wish for?

Never said that… and this is the strawman I noted you were trying to set up.

bullshit. that ain’t democracy. you are the personification of the paradox i was getting at. flip flopper, hypocrite.

Again… where?  I stated that if a populous chooses a dictatorship then we should work with them ask as long as it’s stable.  If the dictator took power by force or subjugation then we do not support it.  Where’s the flip… flipper…

We cannot claim we are out to spread democracy and then penalize people for voting for hamas. that is a laughable fallacy. c’mon seth.

Come on Sparkie… I stated clearly that we support Hamas if they were freely elected by the people (which I don’t fully believe) and they are stable (IE not supporting Terrorism… are supporting peace)

Where is the flip flop?  You went an awful long way to build up to the this… It looks like you had the comments pre-written.  Interesting debate style. 
1. Ask a question that you think is a trap.
2. wait for a response, or elicit one.
3. pounce on the responder with claims of hypocrisy even if the responder doesn’t respond as you expect…

NEAT!!!  I’ll have to try that.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 12:53 pm

You going to answer my questions now Sparkie?

If you decry, as stupid or bizarre, the moral values of conservatives who base their morality on Christian ethics or on Constitutional principles, then the question of “from where do you derive your own” is relevant, no?  You wrote the post about moral absolutism…

What reasons do you have to do whatever it is that you consider to be moral?  What do you consider to be moral?

Is theft moral?  Is murder moral?  Is covetous moral?  Is sex with animals moral?

Where do you get morals from, if not the law (be it the constitution or your religion)?

What’s the point of following a moral if not fear of a consequence?

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 12:55 pm

What reasons do you have to do whatever it is that you consider to be moral?
I consider it to be moral. That’s the reason I would do it. 
What do you consider to be moral?
Too vague.
Is theft moral?
No. I believe in strong property rights.
Is murder moral?
No. Under no circumstance.
Is covetous moral?
‘Covetous’ isn’t a word is it? If it is I think its an adjective which would make your sentence nonsense.
Is sex with animals moral?
I don’t believe it is. However, if someone wants to fuck their dog in the privacy of their own home, I don’t think it should be punishable by law.
Where do you get morals from, if not the law (be it the constitution or your religion)?
Thinking. One can think and come up with a very good set of rights and wrongs.
What’s the point of following a moral if not fear of a consequence?
Its the right thing to do.

Sufficient?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 01:12 pm

Seth
Again, I think we’re alot more on the same page than it seems.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 27, 2007 at 01:13 pm
Avatar for HG

HG
What, pray tell, is “the reality of the moral conscience”?

Your post is a perfect example of the reality of the moral conscience within each individual, even the professing relativist.

HG on March 27, 2007 at 01:15 pm
Avatar for HG

Seth,

Do you agree with natural law, specifically that portion which forms the foundation of our constitutional government? You know, that all men are created equal and are endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

HG on March 27, 2007 at 01:23 pm
Avatar for HG

Thinking. One can think and come up with a very good set of rights and wrongs.

There it is again! ...moral conscience.

HG on March 27, 2007 at 01:26 pm
Avatar for HG

Its the right thing to do.

Because Sparkie says so.

You are dangerously close to the consequences of moral relativism—force is the final arbiter because there is no higher appeal, no moral absolute to judge the [im]morals relative to murdering dictator.

HG on March 27, 2007 at 01:32 pm

It’s happened all throughout history.  Many of the “Lords” of England were so “elected”.

The election to end all elections?  You don’t see the humor in that?  The reality is, it’s deception, one way or the other.  A dictator doesn’t need to be “elected”, so either he or she didn’t reveal the true agenda of being a dictator, or the people wouldn’t have needed to vote in the first place.  Or, the election was a sham in the first place.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 27, 2007 at 01:45 pm
Avatar for HG

"Might makes right!!” (Moral Relativism)

HG on March 27, 2007 at 02:01 pm

I consider it to be moral. That’s the reason I would do it.

...

Thinking. One can think and come up with a very good set of rights and wrongs.

It’s a bit vague.  I base my rules on life on personal liberty as defined in the Constitution.  Every person has inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  If I do something that diminishes another’s inalienable rights then that is immoral. 

Sufficient?

yeah… I got a good idea of your ‘morals’.  wink

Again, I think we’re alot more on the same page than it seems.

That’s possible… though I thought I’ve seen a lot of anti-capitalism and anti-Americanism in your comments.  Besides a few recreational activities and musical groups, I’m not sure how many conversations we’ll come to an agreement on, if those are your views. 

I have enjoyed the debate, however wink

R108,

A dictator doesn’t need to be “elected”, so either he or she didn’t reveal the true agenda of being a dictator, or the people wouldn’t have needed to vote in the first place.  Or, the election was a sham in the first place.

Hardly true.  With respect, many of the kings throughout history were put and kept in power through the love of the people.  To start off, kings were usually the best fighters, but would commonly be the most charismatics of the clan.  Kings would try to pass the position to family, but a bad king was usually replaced quickly.

Seth Yantiss on March 27, 2007 at 05:37 pm

Hardly true.  With respect, many of the kings throughout history were put and kept in power through the love of the people.  To start off, kings were
usually the best fighters, but would commonly be the most charismatics of the clan.  Kings would try to pass the position to family, but a bad king was usually replaced quickly.

This is funny!  Kings “elected”?  Not very likely.  In fact, monarchy is the opposite of having elections, so I have no idea what you are talking about.  Kings rule by either might or Divine Right, but not by being elected.  BTW, there have been many bad kings who reigned for a long time; there were simply no rebellious nobles who could unseat them.  Elections certainly had nothing to do with it.  I don’t follow your reasoning at all here.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 27, 2007 at 08:00 pm

seth

It’s a bit vague.  I base my rules on life on personal liberty as defined in the Constitution.  Every person has inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  If I do something that diminishes another’s inalienable rights then that is immoral.

now that is effing vague. are you being serious? that vague litmus test leaves open lots of immoral things i might not do.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 28, 2007 at 04:52 am

seth

I thought I’ve seen a lot of anti-capitalism ... in your comments.  Besides a few recreational activities (what? like billiards? hee hee hee. cough cough.) and musical groups, I’m not sure how many conversations we’ll come to an agreement on, if those are your views.

emmmm. did you read this post in which i suggest we should basically eat the poor if they will give weak consent to it?

anti-Americanism

perhaps you mean a lack of pro-Americanism. again, see here (about 3/4 through that comment).

HG

“Might makes right!!” (Moral Relativism)

Oh, I thought those were Bush Sr.’s realists. I thought that was Kissinger? Nice bullshit accusation. A moral relativist simply believes that the rights and wrongs fluctuate with society or culture… most believe that because morals do fluctuate in that manner. Go eat a big piece of cow meat on the street in India and tell me if it ain’t the case. For example, if a really hot, Cuban girl with long legs and a round ass walks by on the sidewalk in the US, its fine for men to turn their heads, crane their necks, to watch it go bouncing of into the distance. In some other countries that is morally reprehensible and maybe even legally punishable. Moral relativism is true. To deny it is silly and in ignorance of simple cultural differences. Whether or not there is some ultimate set of rights and wrongs, hanging on God’s office wall, or lodged somewhere in the objective, metaphysical machinery is another question. People who believe that are a little more readily made fun of since no human can ever know what exists that is objective. It begs the question of an eye that doesn’t exist.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 28, 2007 at 05:06 am
Avatar for HG

Nice bullshit accusation.

Might often sets things right, but might doesn’t make morally right.  It’s important to keep the accusation in the context of force being the final arbiter of moral relivistic society.  In other words, the morality of some is forced upon others and there is no moral absolute for others to appeal to.  So, a murdering, raping, dictator is the moral absolute.  The majority opinion in a democracy (not our constitutional republic) is the moral absolute.  Those who don’t share the same morality as the dictator or majority suffer the inequity of moral relativism for they are forced to accept, not universal moral absolutes, but morality no more or less moral than their own (according to the precepts of moral relativism), and likely immorality to them.

Moral relativism is true.

Just because one claims to be a law unto one’s self doesn’t make it true any more than forcing people to accept morals relative to a certain group makes moral absolutes untrue. 

Moral relativism cannot be praciticed without contradicting its own premise and creating inequity.

HG on March 28, 2007 at 08:31 am

For example, if a really hot, Cuban girl with long legs and a round ass walks by on the sidewalk in the US, its fine for men to turn their heads, crane their necks, to watch it go bouncing of into the distance. In some other countries that is morally reprehensible and maybe even legally punishable. Moral relativism is true.

This is not an example of moral relativism, or even cultural relativism.  It is an example of cultural differences.  Once again, Sparkie, you display your abysmal ignorance.  Grow up.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 28, 2007 at 08:44 am

r108

It is an example of cultural differences

sure is. moral differences. thanks r108. culled it right down for me.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 28, 2007 at 01:08 pm

It still isn’t an example of moral relativism.  Grow up.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 28, 2007 at 01:19 pm

again. through repetition i think you can convince yourself. good luck!


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 28, 2007 at 01:52 pm

Sparkie,

now that is effing vague. are you being serious? that vague litmus test leaves open lots of immoral things i might not do.

You think?  Examples?  Do you think that what I wrote is more vague than “what I think” for moral judgements… What do you do when you have a bad day?  Is it cool to kick the kids then? (I’m just illustrating the point of having a document to rely upon.)

I’ve been reading your posts and agree that we have a lot more common ground than I initially thought.

R108,

Kings rule by either might or Divine Right, but not by being elected.

So ALL kings gained their power via coercion?  I learn new things here all the time.  Thanks!

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 06:02 am

What do you do when you have a bad day?  Is it cool to kick the kids then?

No. Having a document to rely on is great and all, I just think its weak if someone can’t figure out right and wrong on their own. It evidences some moral deficiency if you ask me.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 06:14 am

It evidences some moral deficiency if you ask me.

Please…

Morality depends greatly upon the individual, as you note.  Using a document to help express or define your morals doesn’t weaken them or the individual.  It simply provides consistency.  People change throughout the years.  Documents don’t.  Using a set of documents helps to maintain stability in your morals and reduces situational relativism.

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 06:30 am

Seth

You think?  Examples?

Horse fucking, for example, is not immoral according to the constitution. Neither is adultery or a crap load of other things… you get the drift.

People change throughout the years.

Exactly. Why expect their morals to remain the same?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 06:49 am

Point taken.

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 07:31 am

So ALL kings gained their power via coercion?  I learn new things here all the time.  Thanks!

You lie, as usual, Sparkie; I said nothing of the kind.  Actually, most kings gain their power through succession.  It’s still not election.  More ignorance from you.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 08:45 am

R108
What?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 08:53 am

That was my comment post Robert.

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 09:04 am

My apologies, Sparkie; you didn’t lie about what I said this time.

Seth: this is beneath you, what were you thinking?

Originally, a king was usually the guy who won the big battle, but then it became hereditary, like the British Royal Family.  Until fairly recently, most kings ruled by “Divine Right”.  They just weren’t elected.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 09:11 am

R108

Until fairly recently, most kings ruled by “Divine Right”.

Like Bush? God’s chosen one.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 09:29 am

R108

Until fairly recently, most kings ruled by “Divine Right”.

Like Bush? God’s chosen one.

I’m sorry I have to tell you this, Sparkie, but President Bush was elected-twice!  Your antiChristian hate has made you stupid.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 09:40 am

check the new avatar!!!

r108
if he didn’t say it, i wouldn’t suggest it. it has nothing to do with christian hate. remember when you were accusing HG of the same? yea.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 09:57 am

Like Bush? God’s chosen one.

There’s your hate, Sparkie.  I call ‘em as I see ‘em.
Of course, this is just one of many examples of your antiChristian hate and bigotry.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 10:05 am

r108
as i said above. bush claims he has a divine mandate. if he didnt i wouldnt say that. ok?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 10:09 am

r108
as i said above. bush claims he has a divine mandate. No, he doesn’t.  You have misstated what he said.  In any case, he doesn’t claim a Divine Right to be President, so you are off-topic, as usual. if he didnt i wouldnt say that. ok? Of course you would.  You lie and distort all the time.  It’s your modus operandi.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 10:22 am

Seth: this is beneath you, what were you thinking?

Simply that throughout history, people have elected to have dictatorships and other forms of government that we don’t typically consider to be democratic.  A dictatorship can still be instilled by the will of the people.  If that is the case and it’s stable then we should be recognize that government as legitimate.  That was my only point.  Sparkie wanted to trap me into supporting Hamas…

Like Bush? God’s chosen one.

C’mon Sparkie… I was just starting to agree with you.

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 10:38 am

Seth
Direct quote from Bush to Abbas,

“I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”

Like I said. Its Bush that said it. Don’t denegrate me for knowing what Bush says.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 10:42 am

Seth: I guess you missed my original take on “electing a dictator”, which was that it was ironic.  Oh, well.

Sparkie: None of what you are spewing about has anything to do with the “Divine Right of Kings”, which was the subject, wasn’t it? If our President feels called to do the right thing, so much the better.  The previous President was called to do the wrong thing, so we are now much better off.  BTW, you antiChristian hate is showing, yet again.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on March 29, 2007 at 10:56 am

r108

If our President feels called to do the right thing, so much the better.

rather he thinks god speaks to him.
that’s a bit stronger.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 11:02 am

“I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”

Well, there’s one more reason I won’t vote for him again… I have no disdain for him, though.  I think a strong faith is fine.

Seth Yantiss on March 29, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Seth
i have no problem with faith either, but telling Abbas that God is on his side is a little fucked up.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 29, 2007 at 01:07 pm
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