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Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Obama, CEO Pay, and the Politics of Class Envy

By Lee Cary

Populism uses the politics of discontent.(Yet another thing it shares with Marxism-r108) Barack Obama’s recurring comparisons between CEO and average worker salaries is a class-warfare play on resentment with just enough truth to make it work with many voters.

Senator Obama has made frequent reference to the spread between CEO compensation and average worker pay. For example:

1. January 20, 2008, “The Great Need of the Hour” speech on MLK Day

“We have a [moral] deficit when CEOs are making more in ten minutes than some workers make in ten months.”

2. Radio ad in the Texas primary race

“Some CEOs make more in 10 minutes than some American workers make in a year.”

3. April 11, 2008, REUTERS article quoting Obama in Indianapolis

“Some CEOs make more in one day than their workers make in one year.”

The parameters for Obama’s comparison continue to drift, but few notice. His is not an exercise in mathematics. It’s an appeal to voter discontent.

When a politician bemoans the salary-disparity on the Jay Leno or David Letterman Shows the crowds applaud.  Never mind that Jay makes $123,000 and Dave $154,000 for each show - considerably more than the average U.S. worker makes in a year.  Entertainers, including sports figures, are exempt from salary comparisons. They have talent. And never mind that Obama has leveraged his support from Oprah Winfrey to gain votes. At an annual income of $260,000,000, The Oprah makes a million dollars per weekday.

Obama’s floating pay equations have generally been specious.  Here’s how.

Let’s start with the average annual salary (AAS) for a U.S. worker as computed by the San Francisco Chronicle using U.S. Department of Labor statistics: $39,795.33 (Q1 2005). We could use CNN’s computation of a 2006 AAS of $29,544, but they relied on the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy; that lower figure factors in both full- and part-time salaries. Therein is a challenge with computing comparative salaries; not only do the numbers lag behind the calendar, but some sources spin the numbers to support their policy agenda. In October 2005, a third source put the ASS at $40,409. We’ll use $40,000 as the ASS to test Obama’s equations.

Forbes placed the aggregate pay for the CEOs of the top 500 U.S. companies at $5.1 billion, or a CEO average of $10.2 million.  Another source notes that the range of 2005 CEO pay is from $10-15 million.  We’ll use the higher number - $15 million.

In all of Obama’s equations he uses the word “some.” It’s a word that baths generalizations in the warm waters of perceived accuracy. If, for example, you own twin pug dogs that are the only canines that ever learned to play checkers, you could rightly say, “Some dogs play checkers.” But, truth be told, most dogs don’t.  Obama has said this,

1. “We have a [moral] deficit when CEOs are making more in ten minutes than some workers make in ten months.”

Here’s the math: The 2005 AAS for 10 months was $33,333.33.  Based on a 40 hour week, a CEO making more than $33,333 in ten minutes ($3,333.33 per minute) would have a weekly (2,400 minutes) salary of about $8 million and an annual salary of about $416 million.  How many CEOs met that qualification?  The answer is (drum roll here) - none.  According the Forbes, the highest CEO salary for 2005 was Yahoo’s Terry Semel at $230 million.  (He’s right there in Oprah territory.)

2. “Some CEOs make more in 10 minutes than some American workers make in a year.”

Oops. This equation pushes the “some” CEOs annual salary up to nearly $500 million.  That’s equivalent to about what the top three highest paid CEOs made in 2005 combined.  So this equation is clearly bogus. Then, finally, Obama lowers the numbers.

3. “Some CEOs make more in one day than their workers make in one year.”

Okay, now Obama is into reality with his math, although he was careful not to put the word “all” before “their workers.” But, some CEOs do make $10.4 million a year.  In fact, as we’ve seen, that’s about the average for the top 500 companies.  Some Obama supporters do even better, including Steven Spielberg, who makes $110 million a year; George Clooney, $25 million; Matt Damon, $24 million; Will Smith, $31 million—and good for them. CBS News reportedly gave Katie Couric a five-year contract making $46,149 per evening news broadcast.  So Ms. Couric receives more for 20-odd minutes of teleprompter reading than the AAS of U.S. workers. You suppose CBS News has aired any stories on the disparity between CEO compensation and worker pay?

Where’s Senator Obama going with all these sliding comparative equations?  The answer is that he’s appealing to class envy.

It’s not as though the spread between CEO compensation and worker pay isn’t already under considerable scrutiny.  For a review of proposed and passed legislation pertaining to executive compensation see here.  And, for a comprehensive overview of the issue you can read “Excessive CEO Pay: Background and Policy Approaches,” a February 2007 publication of the Congressional Research Services (CRS).  Here’s a summary from that report describing how the government has been addressing the issue.

“There have been two general approaches to executive pay reform.  First changes to securities laws and regulations have attempted to strengthen the bargaining position of shareholders by (1) requiring more complete and comprehensive disclosure of CEO pay, (2) making boards more responsive to shareholder interests, or (3) requiring direct shareholder approval of executive pay packages.  Some of initiatives are the result of regulatory initiatives, while others are or were legislatively based. Second, Congress has tried to restrain the growth of executive pay by eliminating the tax deduction for compensation paid in excess of specific caps.” (p. CRS-3)

So it’s not as if Senator Obama is doing the nation a public service by surfacing an issue that’s been ignored. No, he has another agenda.

Quote #1 above came from Obama’s MLK Day speech wherein he said, “Unity is the great need of the hour. Unity is how we shall overcome.” But exploiting class envy is not a unification tactic. It’s a divisive tactic and represents the same old liberal politics of discontent. It offers no vision for the future of the nation except friction and stridency. 

[...]

SSDD Obama continues the “divide and conquer” strategy and tactics of those who would destroy our way of life, destroy individual independence, and institute State control of America.

Comments

Obama should tell the American worker to suck it up, work harder and one day she’ll be rich too. /sarcasm


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 16, 2008 at 02:17 pm

THE PRESIDENT: You work three jobs?

MS. MORNIN: Three jobs, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Uniquely American, isn’t it? I mean, that is fantastic that you’re doing that. (Applause.) Get any sleep? (Laughter.)


Excuse me, you were saying?


realitybasedbob's signature
realitybasedbob on April 16, 2008 at 02:25 pm

Obama=class envy politics; that’s the subject matter of this thread.  It’s good to see the lefties trying to distract with off-topic nonsense already.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2008 at 04:25 pm

r108...those comments aren’t off topic at all IMO.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 16, 2008 at 08:10 pm

r108...those comments aren’t off topic at all IMO.

I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion, Mike.  Obama played his populist class envy politics, he made number claims that were clearly wrong, so I fail to see what your comment had to do with any of that.  Master Baiter is always off-topic; that’s his “style”.  He is a Master Baiter, after all.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 16, 2008 at 09:24 pm

I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion, Mike.

OK...factually speaking, those comments were not off topic at all.

Obama played his populist class envy politics, he made number claims that were clearly wrong, so I fail to see what your comment had to do with any of that.

Obama believes that hedge fund managers are doing very well by the current system while the average workers are not. You can label that populist class envy politics if you like but it’s not a healthy situation for any society.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 05:53 am

And McCain said the very same thing in his recent speech on economics.

Puzzlefeet on April 17, 2008 at 06:14 am

Obama believes that hedge fund managers are doing very well by the current system Actually, not all hedge fund managers do well; some are successful and some are not, a fact which Obama fails to mention in his class envy diatribe.  Furthermore, he smeared all CEOs, not just hedge fund managers, who are a tiny minority of the tiny minority of financially successful Americans. while the average workers are not. The article illustrated that Obama’s generalization about “average” Americans is mathematically wrong. You can label that populist class envy politics if you like but it’s not a healthy situation for any society. It’s an accurate description of what Obama does, not “labeling”.  As a socialist, you don’t understand or appreciate just how beneficial it is to society to have individuals rewarded according to their efforts, not to class/group membership or to political affiliation.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 09:30 am

As a socialist, you don’t understand or appreciate just how beneficial it is to society to have individuals rewarded according to their efforts, not to class/group membership or to political affiliation.

Hate to bring you down r108 but I’m not a socialist. I do agree that individuals should be rewarded according to their efforts which is why I have problems with the astronomical salaries of some hedge fund managers and some CEO’s. I don’t recall advocating the rewarding of individuals based on class, group or party affiliation so you might be mistaken there too.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 11:15 am

I do agree that individuals should be rewarded according to their efforts which is why I have problems with the astronomical salaries of some hedge fund managers and some CEO’s. You connect things that you say you don’t connect; how can you decide that certain individuals don’t deserve what the market has provided for them?  If you really believe in meritocracy, then you have to accept whatever compensation the market provides, don’t you?  On the other hand, if you think that certain groups deserve less than what the market provides for them, then you are a socialist, no matter what you may claim. I don’t recall advocating the rewarding of individuals based on class, group or party affiliation so you might be mistaken there too. Nope.  You advocate reducing the compensation of certain groups, based on job classification.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 11:37 am

MikeAdamson - I do agree that individuals should be rewarded according to their efforts which is why I have problems with the astronomical salaries of some hedge fund managers and some CEO’s.

You sound like a whiny laborer.

From the point of view of someone who is laboring for a tile setter or roofer or concrete pourer, nobody else is rewarded for their efforts. Almost every other job out there pays more for a lot less work and the ones that pay less tend to be a lot less work.

I have put my time in under those three young man backbreaking jobs. And you know what Mike? There was always another laborer around bitching about how someone else was paid too much.

The smart ones learned the trade, got tools, and hired his own laborers.

The problem isn’t that someone else makes too much, it is that you make too little. The problem is how you look at it and ultimately, how you approach this perceived problem.

Or, you could just avoid the company whose salaries you disagree with.

It’s called economic freedom, Mike. Too often you take the approach of penalizing success with government redistribution. That is why those here call you a socialist.

likwidshoe on April 17, 2008 at 11:49 am

r108

how can you decide that certain individuals don’t deserve what the market has provided for them?

If you really believe in meritocracy, then you have to accept whatever compensation the market provides, don’t you?

It’s not the market providing or determining compensation. If it was then I’d have less of a leg to stand on.

You advocate reducing the compensation of certain groups, based on job classification.

Like many of my fellow shareholders, I think that some of our corporate leaders pay themselves too much.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Mike: If you want to cut the compensation of hedge fund managers, provide them with a “social safety net”; that works every time.  You apparently don’t know the iron law of investment: “Risk determines reward; the higher the risk, the greater the reward.” Hedge fund manager is a very high risk job.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 12:01 pm

lik...I understand what you’re saying. I just don’t happen to have a problem with taxing those who make millions and billions of dollars a year more than those who don’t. They can afford it IMO.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 12:03 pm

r108...I actually do understand what you’re saying. My point is that societies built on extremes of income inequality are not happy societies.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 12:05 pm

It’s not the market providing or determining compensation.

What is, then?  It’s not by govt fiat, so what is it, outside of market forces that determine the worth of each player, that determines that pay?
Please inform.

Like many of my fellow shareholders, I think that some of our corporate leaders pay themselves too much.

So, vote them out.

My point is that societies built on extremes of income inequality are not happy societies.

A very accurate paraphrase of Karl Marx.  His solution was equal outcomes for everyone(except the ruling elite, of course).  Although your buddies, the ChiComs have recognized the need for an affluent class, “to give everyone else something to shoot for”, and have benefited tremendously from doing so.
Fly in your ointment?
Don’t let the facts get in the way of your socialist idealism, Mike.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 12:12 pm

My point is that societies built on extremes of income inequality are not happy societies.

You misstate that our society is “built on extremes of income inequality”; our society is built on “free people making free choices”, and one of the consequences of that is inequality of outcome.  In other words, we have what human nature provides.  This does less violence to humans than your system, which tries to force everyone into the same size box.
Did you consider either East Germany or the Soviet Union “happy societies”?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 12:15 pm

MikeAdamson - I just don’t happen to have a problem with taxing those who make millions and billions of dollars a year more than those who don’t. They can afford it IMO.

And you don’t understand why you’re considered to be a socialist?

Read the first couple of sentences -

Socialism refers to the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers’ councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state.

That is a succinct description of both your attitude as well as your proposed actions, i.e. redistribution via the government.

You may now quibble that you are not for community ownership of property (taxes aside), but give it a rest.

You’re a socialist in body and spirit, Mike.

My point is that societies built on extremes of income inequality are not happy societies.

You see society as “built on” class differences.

There’s that body and spirit, Mike.

likwidshoe on April 17, 2008 at 12:32 pm

likwid: Very good; once you can mandate market outcomes, you virtually control the means of production.  Govt control of pay is the foundation of socialist dictatorship.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 12:43 pm

r108

It’s not by govt fiat, so what is it, outside of market forces that determine the worth of each player, that determines that pay?

The compensation for the CEO is determined by the corporation’s board of directors. Some boards perform their oversight responsibilities seriously while others defer to management’s wishes. I doubt that there’s much of a case for market value playing an important role in determining executive salaries in the second kind of board.

So, vote them out.

Good point but more easily said than done of course. I know I’ve offered the same advice to you when discussing governments who spend too much.

Fly in your ointment?
Don’t let the facts get in the way of your socialist idealism, Mike.

Hmmm...okay. How about societies featuring extremes of income inequality face the prospect of instability in the long term. There’s been countless Star Trek episodes playing on this theme so there must be at least some truth to it.

You misstate that our society is “built on extremes of income inequality”; our society is built on “free people making free choices”, and one of the consequences of that is inequality of outcome.

Replace “built on” with “feature” as America’s foundation is not the inequality...poor choice of words on my part.

This does less violence to humans than your system, which tries to force everyone into the same size box.

I assume you mean by “my system” some sort of state socialist regime. Socialist regimes tend to address the subsistence requirements of its citizens better than capitalist systems but, as you’ve pointed out before and I’ve never refuted, socialist systems tend to bureaucratic stagnation and worse. Ever wonder why Communists keep reappearing as electoral winners in Eastern Europe? Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

Did you consider either East Germany or the Soviet Union “happy societies”?

Nope...which just goes to show that less economic inequality isn’t a sufficient condition for a happy society IMO. I don’t think everyone should get paid an identical wage BTW.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 04:58 pm

lik

And you don’t understand why you’re considered to be a socialist?

I do understand...compared to most here I favour a much more interventionist State and that is considered “socialist.” I consider it not so much “socialist” as “compassionate capitalism” or some such formulation. Left to its own devices, the free market theory becomes less free because it is in the interest of those actors able to “game” the system to do so. Left to its own devices, the free market views people become as units of labour rather than as human beings. The State can moderate the dehumanising impulses of capitalism while still allowing individual initiative and creativity to flow freely.

The interventionist State obviously comes with its own drawbacks as you are very fond of highlighting. I find it preferable to a State run society like the old USSR or North Korea for example and I find it preferable to the capitalism of the 18th, 19th and some of the 20th centuries. It’s a compromise which doesn’t completely please anybody but nobody and nothing man made are perfect.

Finally...I don’t see society as necessarily built on class differences but to pretend that the class differences don’t exist is just as nutty IMO.

Winston Churchill once said something to the effect that every young man is a socialist and becomes a conservative when he grows up. He wasn’t talking conservatism as envisioned here at SA but in the old Tory tradition of community, responsibility and respect. That’s sort of where I find myself now.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 05:13 pm

The compensation for the CEO is determined by the corporation’s board of directors.

In the real world, CEO salaries are almost completely determined by what it takes for the company to get the person they want.  Supply and demand determine price.
It’s not actually any sort of conspiracy at all, but the simplest of market calculations.

Hmmm...okay. How about societies featuring extremes of income inequality face the prospect of instability in the long term. There’s been countless Star Trek episodes playing on this theme so there must be at least some truth to it.

Your use of the word “extreme” loads up the question, and it’s not a true description of what goes on here.  I consider stratified societies to be more extreme in that there is limited upward mobility.
Using a science fiction TV show does you no credit.  I have had many humorous discussions with fellow conservatives about the inherent socialist propaganda in Star Trek, and in how it really is fiction, in the truest sense of the word.  Your socialism would yield no such society, and our free enterprise society would not be anywhere near that militaristic.
Sorry, Mike, that one gave me a chuckle.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 05:26 pm

In the real world, CEO salaries are almost completely determined by what it
takes for the company to get the person they want.

I don’t believe that...sorry.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 05:53 pm

I don’t believe that...sorry.

Some things are true, whether you believe them or not.

Seriously, Mike, you lefties amaze me; you think hourly workers are underpaid, even though the actual evidence indicates they are worth what they are paid.  You think low level laborers aren’t adequately “rewarded”, even though each one contributes very little to the overall income of the operation.  And yet the person at the top, who is responsible for overseeing the entire operation, is somehow overpaid, even though his contribution is quite visible.  Why would a company overpay someone who can be easily replaced by any number of people who would like the job?  The competition for CEO positions if fierce, which generally yields an appropriate compensation, yet you think you can make a better decision than that highly competitive market does?  You are a funny guy, Mike.
Here’s a question for you, Mike: if CEOs are so interchangeable, why would any company not just take the guy who will do the job for less?  Maybe it’s about performance, after all.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 06:33 pm

...the free market theory…

It’s not a “theory”, it’s a living reality.  Even the ChiComs are using it to generate prosperity, albeit without the freedom that makes it really work.
In actuality, when people are free do act as they choose, a free market is what results.  It’s the natural state of human beings, unless acted upon by an outside force, which is usually a controlling govt.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 06:43 pm

It’s not a “theory”, it’s a living reality.

I wouldn’t get carried away but I’m not sure why I said theory...I should have left it at “free market.”

you think hourly workers are underpaid, even though the actual evidence indicates they are worth what they are paid.

Strange...I don’t recall saying that. I also wonder about “the actual evidence”...you’re saying that wages are set by market forces and that workers are paid appropriately. Is your evidence the fact that the market sets the wages so they must be appropriate? I must be missing something.

Why would a company overpay someone who can be easily replaced by any number of people who would like the job?

Because too often the Board of Directors merely rubber stamps what the management requests. It’s such a wide spread problem in the real corporate world that I’m surprised you’re not aware of it.

Here’s a question for you, Mike: if CEOs are so interchangeable, why would any company not just take the guy who will do the job for less?

Because sometimes the management is less interested in corporate profitability than it is in personal remuneration.

You are a funny guy, Mike.

Not really but if my observations amuse then roll with it.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 07:48 pm

...you’re saying that wages are set by market forces and that workers are paid appropriately.

Wrong again, Mike.  I actually said they were paid what they are worth.  That’s in dollars and cents, Mike, it’s not a philosophical concept.  Your substitution of “appropriate” for what I actually said gives weasel room for your social argument, but it’s another misstatement.

Because sometimes the management is less interested in corporate profitability than it is in personal remuneration.

That’s your socialist theory, Mike.  Actually, when that kind of money is on the line(a large company making millions or billions), such decisions are determined by the bottom line, not your Marxist fantasies about conspiracy.
Hiring the wrong CEO has serious negative consequences.
I guess you have little or no business experience.
You couldn’t be more wrong.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 08:29 pm

Wrong again, Mike.  I actually said they were paid what they are worth.

So change my comment to

you’re saying that wages are set by market forces and that workers are paid what they are worth

and lets see about “the actual evidence.” I’m dying to know what it is.

That’s your socialist theory, Mike.  Actually, when that kind of money is on the line(a large company making millions or billions), such decisions are determined by the bottom line, not your Marxist fantasies about conspiracy.
Hiring the wrong CEO has serious negative consequences.
I guess you have little or no business experience.
You couldn’t be more wrong.

I see. I can overlook the dismissive tone because I admire the ferocity of your bluff. Well done sir. wink


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 17, 2008 at 10:18 pm

I see. I can overlook the dismissive tone because I admire the ferocity of
your bluff.

No “bluff”, Mike, and I was being dismissive of your “knowledge” of how business works.  It’s obviously informed by some ideology, rather than the facts on the ground.
I’m averse to having to school you on basic econ, but suffice to say that workers are paid what they’re worth, because if they could make more, they would, and if they were more skilled/productive, their employers would be willing to pay them more.  When free people make free choices, all transactions take place because both parties think they are benefiting by that transaction; otherwise it wouldn’t take place.  I know this runs counter to your ideology, but it’s the way things work in a free enterprise society.  Sorry I had to explain that to you.  (Hint: I was just being dismissive again, although I also presented facts and logic) I wouldn’t have attempted an explanation if I was just trying to invalidate you.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 17, 2008 at 11:46 pm

I’m averse to having to school you on basic econ, but suffice to say that workers are paid what they’re worth, because if they could make more, they would, and if they were more skilled/productive, their employers would be willing to pay them more.

Very logical on paper, quite true in many actual cases, not true in many other cases, not inevitably true as some true believers maintain.

I won’t belabour my rationale for these observations but suffice to say that the assumption that economic actors act rationally is what really gives free markets theory its juice. People act rationally more often than not so the theory can explain the action very well but when people act irrationally in economic terms then the true believer must rely on intervening factors outside of the free market model to explain the divergence, such as pernicious governmental intrusion and the socialist hordes in general.

When you say “they’re paid what the market determines they’re worth” because the market is what determines what they’re worth then it’s hard to argue against you. It’s like saying the sky is blue because it’s blue. When you say that rational market behaviour reflects normal human behaviour, all I can say is “says you.”

It comes down to fundamental assumptions about how the world works. You can pretend that I place my faith in some socialist markets model just as you have placed your faith in a free market model. It isn’t true but don’t let that stop you.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 18, 2008 at 03:45 pm

Communism at its best.  Punish those who work hard and make money.  What, no comments about Basketball, Baseball, Football players, rap “artists” and a variety of others who make more than some of these CEOs.  Plus, they actually produce something like----food, energy, communications, clothes, automobiles and other necessities.  Off for a while.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 18, 2008 at 03:54 pm

...suffice to say that the assumption that economic actors act rationally is what really gives free markets theory its juice.

Wrong again, Mike.  The “assumption” is actually that everyone, given freedom of choice, acts in what he or she believes to be in his or her best interest.  A rational person would, of course, make better choices, but no “Big Mommy” govt can make better choices for people, no matter how much you believe that.  Doing violence to freedom in the name of “the common good” just doesn’t work that well.
As I have said many times before, leftie ideology requires human perfection to work at all, but “free people making free choices” does quite will with the real world of imperfect human beings.

Your premise of “rationality of all humans” is false, so your conclusions are false.
You may be willing to trade your freedom for the promise of security, but I’m not, and don’t want your belief forced on me.  Understand?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 18, 2008 at 04:25 pm

Historically, employers have rarely, if ever, willingly paid their employees more, regardless of their skill or productivity.

As the late Walter Reuther once opined, “Unions are not created by workers, they are caused by employers.”

I have no loyalty to or interest in unionism, but history will show that their emergence into the market place was the result of desperation. Only later did collective greed, driven by union bosses, lead workers to price themselves right out of the very jobs they sought to protect.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

pparets on April 18, 2008 at 04:40 pm

As the late Walter Reuther once opined, “Unions are not created by workers, they are caused by employers.”

Yeah, it’s always someone else’s fault.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 18, 2008 at 05:41 pm

Your premise of “rationality of all humans” is false, so your conclusions are false.

An interesting comment given that I’m questioning how “rationally” every economic decision is made. Either I’m not making myself clear enough, quite possible, or you’re not reading carefully enough, also possible, or you’re not allowing your fundamental premises to be assaulted so you’re shifting the focus away from my point and towards a critique of the strawman alternative of socialism...that’s where my money is laid.

I’m not a “socialist”, I’m a “capitalist.” The difference between us is that you reject any moderation of the original “free market” model as heretical revisionism while I do not. You label stuff “socialist” that I don’t label “socialist.” You consider State intervention beyond the minimum required by the maintenance of social order “socialist” and “wasteful” whereas I don’t.

pp...I think your comment is reasonable. Like any bureaucratic organisation, the union loses its focus on its reason for being and gallops off into areas unintended and unanticipated.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2008 at 09:13 am

The difference between us is that you reject any moderation of the original “free market” model as
heretical revisionism while I do not.

You speak for yourself only; whenever you attempt to speak for me, you get it wrong.
I leave the “heretical revisionism” to the leftie; it’s not part of my thinking at all.  You stated your opinion that the free market was based on everyone being rational in their economic decisions, and that is a false premise.  I stated the correct one, which is that the assumption is not of rationality, but of self-interest.  It is the illusion of socialism that everything in human affairs can be made “rational”.  The free enterprise system(not “capitalism") is based on the assumption that allowing everyone to make free choices based on their own perception of self-interest yields the best overall outcome.  Not the ideologically perfect one, but the best available under the circumstances.
I don’t know how you cooked up your “interpretation” of what I really said, but it’s way off.

BTW, every economic system is a “capitalist” system, in that it is concerned with the distribution and use of capital and capital resources; the difference between the systems is determined by who owns and controls the capital and its use.
That is the difference between a free enterprise system and a socialist one.
You got close on one issue, though: I don’t regard govt as a benign or beneficent entity.  Socially, it usurps privacy and individual independence from the people, and economically, it redirects capital and resources for its own benefit, to the detriment of the people.  As a necessary evil, then, it should be minimized.  It obviously can’t be eliminated.
The proof of this is very simple, and I will post on it later, if you would like to know what I really think.  Otherwise, you can keep clinging to your “interpretations” of what I write.  Your choice.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 09:33 am

The difference between us is that you reject any moderation of the original “free market” model as
heretical revisionism while I do not.

You speak for yourself only; whenever you attempt to speak for me, you get it wrong.
I leave the “heretical revisionism” to the leftie; it’s not part of my thinking at all.  You stated your opinion that the free market was based on everyone being rational in their economic decisions, and that is a false premise.  I stated the correct one, which is that the assumption is not of rationality, but of self-interest.  It is the illusion of socialism that everything in human affairs can be made “rational”.  The free enterprise system(not “capitalism") is based on the assumption that allowing everyone to make free choices based on their own perception of self-interest yields the best overall outcome.  Not the ideologically perfect one, but the best available under the circumstances.
I don’t know how you cooked up your “interpretation” of what I really said, but it’s way off.

BTW, every economic system is a “capitalist” system, in that it is concerned with the distribution and use of capital and capital resources; the difference between the systems is determined by who owns and controls the capital and its use.
That is the difference between a free enterprise system and a socialist one.
You got close on one issue, though: I don’t regard govt as a benign or beneficent entity.  Socially, it usurps privacy and individual independence from the people, and economically, it redirects capital and resources for its own benefit, to the detriment of the people.  As a necessary evil, then, it should be minimized.  It obviously can’t be eliminated.
The proof of this is very simple, and I will post on it later, if you would like to know what I really think.  Otherwise, you can keep clinging to your “interpretations” of what I write.  Your choice.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 09:52 am

I leave the “heretical revisionism” to the leftie; it’s not part of my thinking at all.

Then we agree that the free market model has been modified over time and where we differ is to what degree intervention is required. No need to offer any “proof” of the need for minimal government therefore as you believe that the operation of free markets with only minimal and necessary interference yields the best results while I believe that interference in the free market is required to yield the best results possible.

Sounds like we’re done here. smile


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2008 at 06:00 pm

Then we agree that the free market model has been modified over time and where we differ is to what degree intervention is required.

No, “we” don’t; I don’t think any intervention is required; the govt is necessary to see that the basic requirements for doing business are present.  Enforcement of contracts, a stable monetary system and whatever minimal infrastructure is best done by govt, including securing the borders.

Sounds like we’re done here.

Again with the incorrect “we”.
Actually, I offered to prove why govt programs don’t work, but you chose to put your own interpretation on it.  I say again: the market doesn’t require any govt “intervention”; in fact, such intervention only bogs down the system.

...you believe that the operation of free markets with only minimal and necessary interference…

Once again, no govt “interference” is necessary, and so I don’t believe that at all.

I believe that interference in the free market is required to yield the best results possible.

A vague standard, subject to political interpretation.  Economically, the maximum yield is achieved with as little govt involvement as possible(beyond what I have already said, which is not interference, but facilitation of the doing of business).  Since you believe otherwise, perhaps you could give some examples of how you think govt interference in the market has yielded better results than a free market(no interference).


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 06:18 pm

Mike: Notice that while you used the superlative degree("best"), which is economically unprovable, I used the comparative degree("better than") which is easily demonstrable economically; it’s simply a matter of numbers.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 06:20 pm

Mike: I can’t help but notice that your verbage and mine illustrate the archetypal difference between socialist thinking and free market thinking.  I know that humans and markets are imperfect, and so the “best” outcome can’t be known, but your ideology requires the expectation of perfection, so you think that determination can be made with humans.  Interesting.
BTW, the free market “model"(a reality for me) is still the same: freedom of entry and exit. Anything that interferes with this must reduce the potential wealth-generating potential of that market.
Adam Smith said that a “perfectly free market"(an imaginary concept) would require, among other things, perfect knowledge and perfect mobility.  It’s asymptotic.  We can aspire to that, but we can never get there.
The reality of the free enterprise system is that it maximizes things for humans, depending on the degree of freedom present.
Incidentally, that stuff about perfect mobility explains the utility of personal transportation, does it not?


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 06:28 pm

No, “we” don’t; I don’t think any intervention is required;

I apologise for my confusion. I thought when you said you’d leave revisionism to the lefties that you meant you acknowledge that systems and models evolve. My bad...I should have known better.

the market doesn’t require any govt “intervention”; in fact, such intervention only bogs down the system.

This statement demonstrates how differently we conceptualise the relationship between the economic and social systems. I agree that intervention bogs down the system but sometimes the system needs bogging down.

Economically, the maximum yield is achieved with as little govt involvement as possible(beyond what I have already said, which is not interference, but facilitation of the doing of business).

Agreed.

Since you believe otherwise, perhaps you could give some examples of how you think govt interference in the market has yielded better results than a free market(no interference).

Child labour laws, minimum employment standards, occupational health and safety, product safety standards, environmental standards.

Notice that while you used the superlative degree("best"), which is economically unprovable, I used the comparative degree("better than") which is easily demonstrable economically; it’s simply a matter of numbers.

When we’re debating intervention vs. nonintervention then either degree is appropriate.

I know that humans and markets are imperfect, and so the “best” outcome can’t be known, but your ideology requires the expectation of perfection, so you think that determination can be made with humans. Interesting.

What’s interests me is that I too know that humans are imperfect and that my approval of intervention in the markets requires no such expectation. Uf I required perfection then I would support dictatorial imposition of what I believed to be the perfect system or the system most likely to produce perfection. I don’t of course but the fact that you can’t or won’t shake your error is quite telling.

the free market “model"(a reality for me) is still the same: freedom of entry and exit. Anything that interferes with this must reduce the potential wealth-generating potential of that market.

Of course it does...only a fool would think otherwise.

The reality of the free enterprise system is that it maximizes things for humans, depending on the degree of freedom present. 

If you mean that it satisfies demand more effectively and efficiently than any other system then I agree.

I’m really not convinced that you have the vaguest notion of what I’m talking about. Isn’t it useful to have knowledge of and understand the way society organises its economy today in order to evaluate your “free market reality”? If you have no standard for comparison, other than your comparisons to discredited socialist models of course, then how do you know that the original model is better than the current model?


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 19, 2008 at 09:32 pm

I’m really not convinced that you have the vaguest notion of what I’m talking about. Isn’t it useful to have knowledge of and understand the way
society organises its economy today in order to evaluate your “free market reality”? If you have no standard for comparison, other than your comparisons to discredited socialist models of course, then how do you know that the original model is better than the current model?

At last, an interesting question!  I have plenty of standards for comparison; to wit, all the industrial nations of the world.  They all have varying degrees of govt interference, with fairly scalable outcomes.  It turns out that the more freedom, the better the economic system works.  Here’s our difference, as I see it: You believe that the govt can improve society by controlling the economy to some degree, and I see that every increase in govt interference has its price, not only in economic terms, but in social terms, as well.  In my hierarchy, economics comes first, for the following reason: Everything we do(or can’t do) is determined by our level of affluence(I’m speaking on the individual level, now), and the society that maximizes individual freedom and ability to choose also maximizes the amount of happiness of that society.  Imposing governmental standards, either economic or social, cuts down on that potential for happiness, even among the security-minded.  There’s a good reason for that, and it’s that govt can’t deliver, when it comes right down to it.  Each does of govt interference in the lives of citizens makes the next one necessary, be it taxation(which reduces the freedom of the individual to make choices in his or her best interest) or regulation(which reduces the freedom to act and move).  No matter how much a particular govt intends to do good things, it can never do as well for a particular individual as that individual can do for him or herself, within a very broad range of individual variation.  I’m obviously not including severely disabled people of any classification there.
It’s the old choice between individualism and collectivism, and I’m definitely in favor of individualism, which includes the freedom to form teams for specific purposes, be they long range or short range purposes.  Collectivism, on the other hand, must restrict individualism, which restricts choice.  Citizens who wish to subjugate themselves to the will of another can always find other individuals to perform that function; it doesn’t have to be govt.
No matter how hard it tries to be compassionate, govt is essentially inhuman, demanding the individual sacrifice some measure of freedom for the promise of security.
I consider that a bad deal.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 10:32 pm

BTW, Mike, I have never said that there is only one free market, and that it doesn’t evolve, and I apologize if I’ve erroneously given you that impression.  In my view, there are as many markets as there are individuals; there are also markets for every imaginable human endeavor, involving many different numbers of, and compositions of, people.  Market change over time; a hundred years ago, there were significant rural markets, which have now been shoved into the background by urban markets; the internet(getting us ever closer to that ideal condition of “perfect knowledge") has created innumerable new markets, and electronic funds transfers have changed the way transactions take place.
Nevertheless, the essential nature of how free humans conduct particular markets hasn’t essentially changed.  The rule of transaction is the same: both parties believe that they are benefiting by a transaction, or it doesn’t take place.  People still go where the cost/benefit calculation takes them, which also includes the subjective factor.
Some people crave drugs, alcohol and tobacco, and are willing to spend staggering amounts of money on them, forgoing other important purchases in the process.  Others have no desire for any of that, and spend no money at all on those commodities.
Again, interference with this freedom of entry and exit produces distortions, which hinders the market from yielding not only its maximum output of financial prosperity, but of personal satisfaction of the participants, as well.
Hope this clears things up for you.


"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

robert108 on April 19, 2008 at 10:42 pm

I appreciate your unusually thoughtful responses. You’ve given me much to chew on and I’ll try to get back to this as time permits.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on April 20, 2008 at 08:33 am
Avatar for Kathy

Why don’t liberals get upset over the huge salaries of sports figures and hollywood stars and moguls?  Is it that they’re usually liberal themselves as opposed to ceo’s that are generally conservative?

Kathy on May 3, 2008 at 05:05 am
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