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Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Naturalistic Theism:  Cosmological Proofs II

After establishing that “it is most apparent, that some being hath ever been, or did never begin to be” we move on to the second and third evidences.
...Whence, farther, it is also evident, Secondly, that some being was uncaused, or was ever of itself without any cause.  For what never was from another had never any cause, since nothing could be its own cause.  And somewhat, as appears from what hath been said never was from another.  Or it may be plainly argued thus; that either some being was uncaused, or all being was caused.  But if all being was caused, then some one at least was the cause of itself; which hath been already shown impossible.  Therefore the expression commonly used concerning the first being, that it was of itself, is only to be taken negatively, that is that it was not another; not positively, as if it did some time make itself.  Or what there is positive signified by that form of speech, is only to be taken thus, that it was a being of that nature, as that it was impossible it should ever not have been; not that it did ever of itself step out of not being into being.

To sum up: whatever was eternal was uncaused, or existed without cause.  Since what was first cannot be its own cause, something is eternal.  We take this then negatively only, that what was first is not of another. 

...And now is hence farther evident, thirdly, that some being is independent upon any other, that is whereas it already appears that some being did never depend on any other, as a productive cause, and was not beholden to any other, this it might come into being; it is thereupon equally evident that it is simply independent, or cannot beholden to any for its continued being.  For what did never need a productive cause, doth as little need a sustaining or conserving cause.  And to make this more plain, either some being in independent, or all being is dependent.  But there is nothing without the compass of all being whereon it may depend.  Wherefore to say, that all being doth depend, is to say it depends on nothing, that is that it depends not.  For to depend on nothing, is not to depend.  It is therefore a manifest contradiction to say that all being doth depend; against which it is no relief to urge, that all beings do circularly depend on one another.  For so, however the whole circle or sphere of being should depend on nothing; or one at last depend on itself, which negatively taken, as before, is true, and the thing we contend for—that one, the common spport of all the rest, depends not on any thing without itself.—[John Howe, (1630-1705)]


Again to summarize: Since what was first is not of another it is not dependent upon another, but self-sustaining.  It then follows that either what is first is independent or all is dependent.  Since all cannot be dependent else it depends on nothing, what was first is independent and all else dependent upon that which was first.

Comments

HG
One need not posit an ‘original mover’. What if everything has just been moving forever? Are you familiar with the matter/antimatter distinction? Evidently, what proceeded that was some form of ‘alien’ (to our universe) energy alone… i.e. not matter or anti-matter. Our entire concept of causation and movement breaks down if one goes back before the matter/antimatter split began to occur. Still the burden is to prove that things started moving at some point, before which they didn’t. I don’t see how that burden can be met. Its pure speculation no?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 3, 2007 at 05:54 pm

I am not that so familiar with the matter/antimatter distinction so as to offer a substantive answer to your question.  I’ll check it out though.


We cannot impose a military solution on what has effectively become a civil war. And until we acknowledge that reality — we can send 15,000 more troops, 20,000 more troops, 30,000 more troops, I don’t know any expert on the region or any military officer that I’ve spoken to privately that believes that that is going to make a substantial difference on the situation on the ground.” (CBS’ “Face The Nation,” 1/14/07)

“I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.” (MSNBC’s “Response To The President’s Speech On Iraq,” 1/10/07)

“[E]ven those who are supporting — but here’s the thing, Larry — even those who support the escalation have acknowledged that 20,000, 30,000, even 40,000 more troops placed temporarily in places like Baghdad are not going to make a long-term difference.” (CNN’s “Larry King Live,” 3/19/07)

“My assessment is that the surge has not worked and we will not see a different report eight weeks from now.” (NBC’s “The Today Show,” 7/18/07)

Senator Barack Obama

HG on April 3, 2007 at 07:01 pm

Sparkie, are you suggesting some thing always existed and that some thing which always existed was always in motion and therefore no first thing is necessary?


We cannot impose a military solution on what has effectively become a civil war. And until we acknowledge that reality — we can send 15,000 more troops, 20,000 more troops, 30,000 more troops, I don’t know any expert on the region or any military officer that I’ve spoken to privately that believes that that is going to make a substantial difference on the situation on the ground.” (CBS’ “Face The Nation,” 1/14/07)

“I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.” (MSNBC’s “Response To The President’s Speech On Iraq,” 1/10/07)

“[E]ven those who are supporting — but here’s the thing, Larry — even those who support the escalation have acknowledged that 20,000, 30,000, even 40,000 more troops placed temporarily in places like Baghdad are not going to make a long-term difference.” (CNN’s “Larry King Live,” 3/19/07)

“My assessment is that the surge has not worked and we will not see a different report eight weeks from now.” (NBC’s “The Today Show,” 7/18/07)

Senator Barack Obama

HG on April 3, 2007 at 09:29 pm

HG
Yes. Always. Its just as probable as another scenario. One cannot say, “Aha! He’s foolish. He thinks there has always been stuff… moving.” Its pure speculation… that far back.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 4, 2007 at 05:29 am
Avatar for HG

Sparkie,

How is that different from what is being advanced here?

If something always was and the same always existed and preceeded all else, are we not in agreement up to this point?

HG on April 4, 2007 at 08:37 am

HG
No. You clearly have latent Christian motivations. I do not.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 4, 2007 at 09:38 am

Supposing that this is true… Could not that which was first have been destroyed by that which came after?

Supposing the Big Bang occurred.  If the big bang came about because of a big collapse, then what was before the collapse?  Was that always there, or was that the result of a big bang as well? 

Could that which was first have been destroyed by that which came after?  Perhaps what we think of as God wasn’t first?  The “gods” in Human history always seems to “require” something from us… doesn’t this seem to indicate that the gods we know are not self sustaining?

Seth Yantiss on April 4, 2007 at 09:40 am
Avatar for HG

I said…

“Sparkie, are you suggesting some thing always existed and that some thing which always existed was always in motion and therefore no first thing is necessary? “

Sparkie Responded…

“Yes”

Now, how is it your always moving, ever existing something isn’t the cause of all else?

HG on April 4, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Avatar for HG

Could not that which was first have been destroyed by that which came after?

Not if the first cause is that upon which all things depends.

Perhaps what we think of as God wasn’t first?

The rationale for that which is first develops the properties of said being and as such could not be preceeded nor dependent.

The “gods” in Human history always seems to “require” something from us… doesn’t this seem to indicate that the gods we know are not self sustaining?

I don’t think ‘purpose’ is necessarily evidence of dependence.

HG on April 4, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Avatar for HG

You clearly have latent Christian motivations.

Naturalistic Theism isn’t Christian Sparkie.

I am honestly curious because it seems to me that to admit an always moving, always existing something which preceeds all else, is to admit a first cause.

HG on April 4, 2007 at 12:37 pm

Perhaps what we think of as God wasn’t first?

The rationale for that which is first develops the properties of said being and as such could not be preceeded nor dependent.

The bible talks of God as the head Angel.  It talks of the Angels as a separate race.  It talks of God as being the most powerful of the Gods, but still a God among Gods. 

How, therefore would this God be the first God?

Seth Yantiss on April 4, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Avatar for HG

Seth,

The short answer is Naturalistic Theism isn’t concerned with Biblical Revelation.
It is an exercise in reason based upon observation.

On the other hand the bible only speaks of one true God.

HG on April 4, 2007 at 01:16 pm

Ahhhh....  well, we’re talking apples and some-fruit-I’ve-never-heard-of…

Thanks!

Seth Yantiss on April 4, 2007 at 01:35 pm
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