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Sunday, July 20, 2008

‘Natural Use’ Arguments and Why They Suck

Recently, I did a couple posts with the so-called ‘natural use’ arguments against homosexuality in my sites. One can see those posts, which received wide attention from a number of SAB commentators, here and here.

At any rate, the whole ‘natural use’ argument bothers me. In short, its a crappy argument. Crappy arguments shouldn’t be allowed to circulate and influence people, so this is the third installment in my effort to undermine this particular crappy argument.

First, let’s consider some of the history behind this argument.

The latter part of the twelfth through the fourteenth centuries, however, saw a sharp rise in intolerance towards homosexual sex, alongside persecution of Jews, Muslims, heretics, and others. While the causes of this are somewhat unclear… The Church itself started to appeal to a conception of “nature” as the standard of morality, and drew it in such a way so as to forbid homosexual sex (as well as extramarital sex, nonprocreative sex within marriage, and often masturbation). For example, the first ecumenical council to condemn homosexual sex, Lateran III of 1179, stated that “Whoever shall be found to have committed that incontinence which is against nature” shall be punished, the severity of which depended upon whether the transgressor was a cleric or layperson (quoted in Boswell, 1980, 277). This appeal to natural law (discussed below) became very influential in the Western tradition. An important point to note, however, is that the key category here is the ‘sodomite,’ which differs from the contemporary idea of ‘homosexual’. A sodomite was understood as act-defined, rather than as a type of person. Someone who had desires to engage in sodomy, yet did not act upon them, was not a sodomite. Also, persons who engaged in heterosexual sodomy were also sodomites. There are reports of persons being burned to death or beheaded for sodomy with a spouse (Greenberg, 1988, 277). Finally, a person who had engaged in sodomy, yet who had repented of his sin and vowed to never do it again, was no longer a sodomite.

A nice little backstory, eh? I guess biology had advanced back then enough for the church fathers to know exactly what the natural morality was. I am impressed.

Now, for another counterargument. View beavers. They are furry little dam builders who communicate danger by slapping the water with their tale to alert fellow beavers to be aware. Tailslapping is an important aspect of beaver survival. Without tailslapping, beaver survival would be in jeopardy. Ergo, the so-called natural use of tailslapping is to warn other beavers of danger.

Unfortunately, sometimes beavers slap their tales when there is no real danger. Moreover, the success rate of the tailslapping’s correspondence to actual danger is of little significance to the beaver’s survival. In fact, if bona fide danger was present only 10% of the time the beavers slapped their tales, they’d still be safe, if not a little jumpy.

It turns out that for some things imperative to survival, overcompensation is necessary. Expecting the beaver’s to tailslap every time there is bona fide danger present and never when there isn’t bona fide danger present, for fear of committing an ‘unnatural act’… is foolish. The point is that tailslapping, is natural… if its right 10% of the time… the beavers will be safe.

Comments

Avatar for HG

Sparkie, the natural use argument against homosexuality is obvious to those not so inclined to imagine a moral equivalence between humans and animals.  It was around long before the excerpt suggests (Romans 1.19-28). 

I won’t bother to waste my time on the beaver analogy.

HG on July 20, 2008 at 04:21 pm
Avatar for HG

Doesn’t the argument of moral equivalence between humanity and animals assume something more than relative morality?  As a relative moralist, how do you justify homosexuality by the behavior of animals? Do you have knowledge of the relative morality of the various species? Doesn’t such a justification demand some morality shared by all species?

HG on July 20, 2008 at 05:05 pm

Did you just read the excerpt or did you read the source? Did I say origin or complete history? No.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 20, 2008 at 05:32 pm

Give it up, arbuckle.  You’re not very good at this.

In the year 390, Justinian issued an imperial decree to all Romans making homosexuality a crime.

3,000 years earlier, the Israelites had done the same.

Historical propaganda notwithstanding, even the ancient Greeks punished homosexuality with castration.

Then there are the civilizations of the East.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

pparets on July 20, 2008 at 06:23 pm

pparets
You’ll notice that my argument is in the second half of the post. The first half and the sample was just to show Christian animosity towards ANY kind of sex.

The target here is the natural use arguments. Natural morality (sic). Its horseshit. The gays want people to tell them what they are doing is morally okay. I won’t do that. I’ll just say that ‘morally okay’ is some concept that has evolved among us that has to do with the fact that we are social primates. We need to behave to survive. Juxtaposing sin and dudes in the sky on top of it to secure financial political power over people is silly, IMO. Chase your cloud castles all you want though. Just don’t subject us to crap arguments.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 20, 2008 at 08:00 pm

look at the history of mankind. man is hardly a moral animal.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 20, 2008 at 08:05 pm
Avatar for HG

We need to behave to survive.

Thanks for acknowledging natural law and subsequently necessary morality Sparkie.  If humanity must behave in order to survive, then it is correct to say that nature forbids certain behaviors.  In other words, humanity will cease to exist in nature if humanity doesn’t behave accordingly.

HG on July 20, 2008 at 08:29 pm
Avatar for HG

We need to behave to survive.

Sparkie, I think you stumbled upon a profundity here.

HG on July 20, 2008 at 08:30 pm

Whatever the underlying reasons, a lot of the laws laid down in the Bible are just common sense and result in a healthier, better-adjusted society.

All those edicts about animals which are clean and unclean, millenia later, with the benefit of the microscope and scientific bases of biology, we see a lot of the animals that were deemed unclean often bear parasites and diseases the other clean animals did not (or with far less frequency)

Avoiding those behaviors, such as lying, bearing false witness, coveting the property of your neighbor, keeping a civil tongue, all go far to a more pleasant, less violent society.

And sex was not outlawed in the Bible.  Heck the Bible is replete with a man going into a woman and begetting someone or other, indeed, the thrust of the Bible (at least right after the Flood) was to go forth and multiply.  We can assume that wasn’t mathematics they were talking about nor asexual reproduction.

What the Bible consistently railed against was unbounded sex outside marriage (and we are seeing the effects since the Timothy O’Leary if-it-feels-good-do-it 1970’s) one-quarter of the population of NYC with herpes, up to one-half of college age girls have the permanent HPV or human papilloma virus, often a precursor to cervical cancer, as well as homosexual deviancy, which has given us the modern-day, incurable and fatal HIV/AIDs plague.

Instead, the Bible spoke of a marriage between man and woman, and while the women was to obey her husband, he was to love his wife.  How could a man who loved his wife ask her to do, or do something to her, that would hurt someone he loved?  A very simple arrangement that formed the most basic and fundamental building block of a stable, peaceful and prosperous society.

So whether you want to call that divinely inspired or just good common sense the end result is you should—as a society—avoid unprotected receptive butt-sex which is probably the most important part of any homosexual’s day.

Conflict?  Hell yeah, but homos are doing stuff which invites and spreads disease, some of it incurable and some of it incurably fatal.

Don’t do that.  Girls and Guys are shaped the way they are for good reason.  When you start messing around in the body’s sewer, bad things are gonna happen.

Why does it become society’s business what homos do?  Because by way of blood transfusions, intravenous drug sharing, donated organs and other transactions, the disease largely propounded by their deviant behavior is endangering the rest of society and to make it all the worse, the homos are demanding billions in taxpayer dollars to fix their problem, both at home and overseas.

I guess society is involved now, and since we’re paying the price for homosexual behavior, society ought to have a say in defending itself against a modern-day plague and minimizing unnecessary costs foisted on it by romping bathhouse boys.


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on July 20, 2008 at 09:21 pm
Avatar for HG

MZ,

Hear, hear!

Well said.

HG on July 20, 2008 at 09:27 pm

Thanks


...for great justice

egpzpj.jpg

Move_Zig on July 20, 2008 at 09:38 pm

Homosexuality does not produce offspring. It is “recreation” not “procreation”.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 21, 2008 at 04:35 am

HG
Ha ha ha!

Thanks for acknowledging natural law and subsequently necessary morality Sparkie.

If you pay attention, I did nothing of the sort. Beavers need to slap their tail to survive. Does that mean its tied into your natural morality?

If humanity must behave in order to survive, then it is correct to say that nature forbids certain behaviors.

Not at all, quite the contrary. If all humans behaved (sic), the earth would be crawling with them. Then we’d all die. How immoral.

In other words, humanity will cease to exist in nature if humanity doesn’t behave accordingly.

Not everyone, ass. Read the beaver argument. Jesus christ, its like arguing with a 4 year old.

Whatever the underlying reasons

So it might not be natural morality, or have anything to with God? Thanks, MZ. Also, MZ… this post was against ‘natural use’ arguments. Did you catch that? Also, if it ain’t immoral, its just good advice, then so fucking what? Why not just take care of yourself and STFU? Naw, you take it upon yourself to let other people know what they’re doing is right or wrong. Why, because you fucking know everything of course. Bullshit. Thanks for your bigoted opines.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 21, 2008 at 04:46 am

If humanity must behave in order to survive, then it is correct to say that nature forbids certain behaviors.

IN FACT HG, if you pay attention, the content of my post directly undermines this claim.

Heh.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 21, 2008 at 05:54 am
Avatar for HG

We need to behave to survive.

These are your own words sparkie.  You can take them back if you like.

HG on July 21, 2008 at 09:22 am

Sparkie said:

Now, for another counterargument. View beavers.

I thought your article was about homosexuality but if you insist, view beavers I shall.

Never let it be said I’m uncooperative.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on July 21, 2008 at 10:42 am

Pilgrim
I wondered who’d pick up on that. I even thought about italicizing it, pace Proof, but I let it go.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 21, 2008 at 11:37 am

I tried to resist commenting on it but I could’t let the cheap shot pass.


Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Pilgrim on July 21, 2008 at 11:45 am

hg

If humanity must behave in order to survive, then it is correct to say that nature forbids certain behaviors.

like i said, you are answered here

Moreover, the success rate of the tailslapping’s correspondence to actual danger is of little significance to the beaver’s survival. In fact, if bona fide danger was present only 10% of the time the beavers slapped their tales, they’d still be safe

get it? mutatis mutandis with many other overcompensational survival-based features of various critters, including us. are you prepared to say that a beaver slapping its tail in the presence of something harmless is forbidden by nature? definitely not. its absurd.
on the same token, if sex is only for reproduction, are we to say that any example of sex, homosexual or not, that doesn’t lead to a baby is forbidden by nature? certainly not.

female humans are, in fact, one of the few animals that do not signal when they are ‘in heat’ so-to-speak. sex is by its very nature an overcompensationing activity. only with science and careful calculation could one attempt to only have sex that leads to progeny.

HG. your arguments are poo-poo. the idea of nature forbidding something… especially when we are talking about a contingent, accidental science like biology… is silly. nature qua nature pertains to physics and chemistry, no? perhaps violations of certain fundamental physical laws are ‘forbidden by nature’, and, if they are, presumably we would see no exceptions to them as nature forbids them. for some reason, i think if you want to say that nature forbids homosexual sex, you must also say that it forbids SUVs, and countless other artifacts and technologies.

good luck pursuing that line. i’ll give you grief for it, believe me. it would be a sin against nature if i were to let such shoddy arguments stand.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 21, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Sparkie, just because Rome published something in the middle ages doesn’t mean it originated there.  Try Romans 1 and Leviticus 18 and 22 instead.  You’re only off by 12 or even 27 centuries here.

It amazes me, for what it’s worth, that people would DEBATE about whether there is something unnatural about putting one’s “most prized asset” in a tube of feces.  That people would DEBATE whether a behavior that shortens life by an average of forty years or so might have something wrong with it.

Bike Bubba on July 21, 2008 at 01:31 pm

Talk about “natural use”, I just got home about 20 minutes ago, got out my vehicle, started walking down the driveway to check the mail. One of our cats, not sure which one, ran between my feet. I am now bleeding from multiple contusions. Sucks to be me.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 21, 2008 at 08:36 pm

Cat scratches aren’t fun. They infect easy too.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on July 21, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Wasn’t the cat, it was the concrete of the driveway that kicked my ass!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 22, 2008 at 09:07 am
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