Home Mobile Authors Say Anything Register Login

Friday, April 06, 2007

Kukathas - ‘Politics of Indifference’ AKA Shut the F**k Up ‘Cultural Groups’

Concurrently posted at The Arbuckle Institute.

One issue currently dominating the discussion of contemporary political theory is how to deal with cultural diversity and the claims: moral, legal, cultural, linguistic or religious made by various actors (Kukathas Handbook 250). One proposed way to deal with these issues falls under the heading of politics of difference – equality of participation and inclusion of all groups sometimes requiring that disadvantaged or oppressed groups be given differential treatment in social policy (Young Justice 158). This position is a reaction to a form of liberalism that assumes basic individual human rights would resolve the claims of national minorities. Advocates of the politics of difference argue that human rights cannot resolve contentious issues such as what language should be recognized publicly, whether there should be funded public education in the minority tongue, or if minorities should be allowed to form their own local regions (Kukathas Handbook 251). The politics of indifference takes a different stance and recommends that liberalism resist the demand for recognition (Kukathas Indifference 687). Liberalism, according to the politics of indifference, takes no interest in the character or identity of the individuals, or their collective projects or group preferences (691). It maintains that the state is only concerned with upholding the framework of the law within which individuals and groups can function peacefully.

Kukathas is one such advocate of the politics of indifference. His theory allows for the most diversity to come under his definition of liberalism, and refuses to make assumptions as to what justice or equality means, something which the theorists of differential politics propose in their theories. Kukathas makes one assumption as to the universal nature of humans by proposing that all humans share an interest in following their conscience; this assumption includes any and all conceptions of the good life (Archipelago 29). No matter what an individual believes or what morals and values that individual holds they will have an interest in following their belief. The politics of indifference allows for the peaceful coexistence of difference, while the politics of difference advocated by theorists such as Iris Young and Will Kymlicka base their theories around assumptions about what equality, justice, and rights are – assumptions that are inconsistent with their goal of preserving group distinctness. What Young and Kymlicka share is a tendency to advocate views that are founded on assumptions of rights and values that end up acting as a barrier for diversity and also force liberal assumptions upon groups and individuals who may not share those views. I contend that Kukathas’ theory of indifference is superior to the assumptions proposed by theorists who advocate politics of difference, and I will show how Kukathas’ theory could be more consistent by rethinking his basis for the freedom of exit. Kukathas’ theory allows for nearly all diversity to be brought together under peaceful coexistence, while the politics of difference proposes a counterproductive theory that fails to attain its goal of preserving diversity. I will discuss the views put forth by Young and Kymlicka bringing up objections put forth by Kukathas, as well as my own, to show how their theories are internally inconsistent and when analyzed prove to be based on false claims.



Kukathas begins by pointing out that throughout history there has been tension between human cooperation and unrelenting conflict (Hawkings 589). Kukathas’ liberalism, his politics of indifference, appears to be the best solution to this tension insofar as its emphasis is on the greatest possible individual freedoms. Kukathas’ theory is different from the theories put forth by Young and Kymlicka since it is not founded on the disputed conceptions of justice and equality. Kukathas believes that it would be incoherent to do so since he points out that such topics are controversial and no one meaning of these terms can claim superiority (590). Political liberalism as seen in Kukathas’ theory makes no appeal to substantial moral conceptions and only advocates a minimal moral conception needed for peaceful coexistence. Kukathas does make one assumption about human nature and motivation, but it is an assumption that allows for all individual conceptions of justice, freedom, beliefs, and morals to be brought into its framework. He asserts a Humean view of human nature motivated by self-interest, affection, and principle with the modification that the motive of principle entails living according to one’s conscience (592). Hume’s term ‘principle’, according to Kukathas, is too narrow and implies that there must be an element of deliberation and reflection involved and for Kukathas this need not be the case (Archipelago 48). Conscience will sometimes trump other motivations, and it is what makes us distinctly human. Sometimes beliefs, especially religious ones, are so deeply held that they are beyond deliberation or reflection and are simply blindly accepted by the individual. The unexamined life, for Kukathas, is one that is free and is worth living. Even though Kukathas’ theory hinges on the assumption that freedom of conscience is the most important human interest, it is one that includes every embodiment of individualism, allowing all views to be accommodated.



For Kukathas, the free society is one where there are many associations and multiple authorities but none is privileged as morally superior (Archipelago 19). The multiple authorities arising in this conception of the free society will rest their authority not on an assumed definition of justice but simply on their acquiescence of subjects. A society can be seen as liberal to the extent that it tolerates dissent as well as illiberal associations within it. A truly liberal society should not attempt to overturn laws of illiberal associations within it on the basis that it would violate freedom of conscience. Individuals are allowed in this society to reject the authority of one association, exit the society whose authority was rejected, and accept the authority of another association (25). The fundamental principle Kukathas upholds for a free society is the principle of freedom of association, meaning that an individual in a free society can associate with whatever group they wish (75). The first corollary of this principle is the principle of freedom of disassociation. This is needed to allow people to exit associations they find to act against their conscience. No one conception of justice or beliefs in general can be appealed to as morally superior since the standards for these definitions are in dispute. Therefore, individuals must be allowed to exit associations. A second corollary to the principle of freedom of association is the principle of mutual toleration of associations (75). A society is free if it and its authorities uphold these minimal moral conceptions. Society according to this view, should not be founded on disputed ideas of social justice or equality, but rather a mutual toleration for all possible conceptions of these views that are embodied in different associations. This view is the most encompassing of all the theorists that will be examined here, especially since it allows all people to live freely by their cultural standards as long as it does not threaten the legal and political order that allows for peaceful coexistence (Kukathas Indifference 690). To be sure, upholding the rule of law by the state may require intervention in the affairs of individuals and groups, but liberal politics is not concerned with these affairs in themselves.

There is one assumption that Kukathas needs to be rid of in his theory in order to be consistent against assumptions such as metaphysical rights and undisputed terms of justice and equality; the very things that make his theory attractive in the first place. Kukathas, in my view, wrongly grounds the freedom of disassociation, the freedom to exit, as an inalienable right of individuals (Archipelago 96). Kukathas goes on to say that this view does not give agents fundamental rights, but in fact it does. The rest of Kukathas’ theory, besides the assumptions of human interest which are allowable since they encompass all variations of individuals, does not derive theoretical grounding on disputed ideas such as fundamental rights of equality and justice. Kukathas protests that social justice, equality, and the idea of the good society are heavily disputed and vary between cultures as well as among the individuals within cultures. His theory would be more thoroughly consistent if he grounded the right to exit on the freedom of conscience as well as the practicality it affords. Individuals must be allowed to exit not because of a controversial claim about metaphysical rights, but rather because it prevents violence and allows for peaceful coexistence.



Iris Young, in contrast to Kukathas, does not focus on the individual as the basic unit of her theory as Kukathas does, but rather on groups in general. The politics of difference Young advocates begins with an appeal for equality of group participation and inclusion in social policy that sometimes requires differential treatment for the oppressed (Justice 157). Right out of the gate, Young bases her entire theory on the fallacious assumption that equality is an undisputed term. As Kukathas adeptly notes, diversity and equality are incompatible (Archipelago 214). To promote equality between groups would mean disposing of all the things that make them unique, a consequence that is not consistent with the stated goal of preserving group difference. Young argues that in order to promote social justice, another term she assumes is uncontroversial, social policy must accord differential treatment to groups – hence the term politics of difference (Justice 158). In Young’s vision of the good society, group differences are not eliminated or transcended but rather there is equality among groups (163). Once again, Young only allows diversity to exist within a narrow framework of what she believes is the good society. It is simply not true that all groups share the idea that equality between groups is what the good life embodies. Also, Young is quick to assume that pushing equality between groups in social policy will have no adverse effect to the distinct culture within these groups. Repositioning the groups according to Young’s narrow definition of equality, the inclusion of all groups in social policy, may change the unique character of a group’s identity, their beliefs and all the elements Young’s theory ironically tries to preserve. Young also assumes that she knows what aspects should be equalized and acknowledged in the social policy she advocates, and makes no mention of how the equality is to be specifically decided.



Young objects to the politics of indifference since first, she believes that blindness to difference disadvantages groups that differ from the privileged groups (Justice 164). According to Young, the privileged groups define the standards according to which all are measured, tending to put the unprivileged groups at a disadvantage. The ironic aspect is that Young’s theory puts forth disputed concepts of justice and equality that may marginalize a group’s own idea of what those concepts mean, including both disadvantaged and oppressed groups. As Kukathas notes, groups may use a different metric of equality and justice and these may be metrics that are not compatible with Young’s notion (Archipelago 223). Second, Young believes blindness to difference perpetuates cultural imperialism by allowing norms that the dominate group defines to appear as neutral (165). Young is misguided and puts forth an objection that applies to her own theory – Young’s ideas are far from neutral and will clearly disadvantage those who stray from these definitions. Her theory argues that asserting values of the disadvantaged cultures will result in relativizing the dominant group(s) that can no longer claim their norms to be universal. Politics of difference will also, according to Young, promote the notion of group solidarity against the individualism of liberal humanism. Young assumes that group solidarity is a goal worth pursuing even though she wants diversity. It would seem to be more consistent with her stance if she allowed for the most variation as possible since she strives to preserve cultural difference. Kukathas raises an important objection; unity, even within a group, suppresses diversity (Archipelago 214). Young also argues that groups cannot be equal unless their experiences and culture are publicly affirmed (Justice 174). It is irrational for Young, or anyone, to assume that the state is omniscient and can know what all the cultural characteristics of a group are or to assume that a group, especially a divided one, can vocalize them. It is also important to note that Young is only concerned with specific representation for social groups, groups that share a set of practices, and not ideological groups since she claims it is the social groups that will contribute to social knowledge important for political discussion. It seems outrageous for Young to assume that first, social groups can better contribute to the social knowledge of a political discussion, and two, to assume that no groups are divided such that one portion of the group dissents based on a political ideology. It seems apparent that if Young really wants a robust political discussion she would advocate for including ideological groups.



Kymlicka, like Young, advocates for the politics of difference. He believes that special rights are consistent with the liberal commitment of ‘genuine equality’ and to individual autonomy. The context of individual autonomy is the range of options passed down to us by our language and culture therefore, these must be preserved (Rights 140). His theory proposes that different political powers be based on ethnicity and agrees with Dworkin that justice requires removing disadvantages that are morally arbitrary, especially ones that have been present from birth. It is not clear how Kymlicka or Dworkin, arrived at the idea that this is what justice requires. Their assumption of meaning is heavily controversial since no one universal idea of justice exists. As Kukathas objects, diversity and justice are only compatible if there are several conceptions of justice (Archipelago 181). Kymlicka would disagree, as he does in Earthly Goods, and states that there is indeed a general concept of justice (45). Kymlicka advocates for special rights to insulate the national minority from decisions made by the majority culture that may undermine the minority’s viability (141). Kukathas rejects that groups have a right to survive (Archipelago 77). As Kukathas notes, diversity among groups will lead to inequalities in outcomes – some groups will be wealthier, some larger, and some may cease to exist. Their only freedom derives from their freedom to associate. Kymlicka’s theory differentiates between national minorities who self-governed at one point before colonization, and immigrants who voluntarily decided to leave their own society. Kymlicka believes national minorities are those that need special rights since their incorporation into the multinational state was involuntary while the immigrants should be expected to assimilate since it was their choice to leave their culture (83). As Kukathas notes, Kymlicka is quick to assume that these two groups can be easily distinguished – this is clearly not the case.



Like Young, Kymlicka wishes to accommodate differences and have equality between groups, but is against intervention within groups. Kymlicka also assumes, like Young does, that the repositioning of groups according to a contested definition of what equality means will not disrupt the cultural character of the group. Furthermore, Kymlicka states that a national minority should be free to decide how to control their homeland according to principles of justice. This means that groups are only free to be consistent with Kymlicka’s assumed idea of what justice is, having equality between groups, when they control their homeland (Earthly 45). Both the concepts of justice and equality are assumed by Kymlicka to be universally defined which is clearly not the case. Kymlicka contradicts himself in various parts of his theory by rejecting the idea of forcing liberal principles on groups, but forbids groups to pose internal restrictions on members to question or revise their beliefs; basically groups cannot limit individual autonomy (Kukathas Handbook 252). Kymlicka wants to protect group uniqueness but also not allow groups that forbid questioning of their beliefs. Kymlicka’s theory is not liberal at all since many religious groups, among others, would be forbidden to freely exist. Support for groups given by the state, according to Kymlicka, should also be done fairly (Multiculturalism 115). Just like many of his other concepts, Kymlicka assumes there is one general definition of fairness, or if there is not, that the state has epistemic access to all the differing values of fairness groups hold. Both of these ideas are laughably fallacious. Kymlicka also argues that the state can not be neutral in its actions since it regularly advocates for certain symbols and holidays that belong to a certain culture (111). Therefore, no matter what, the state can not act with benign neglect to cultural difference (108). Furthermore, states have citizenship rights which can be seen as evidence, he claims, that states already have group differentiated rights (Multiculturalism 124). As Kukathas notes, states are not neutral in character but accidents of history that can explain why states advocate certain cultural holidays and symbols (Indifference 696). Furthermore, citizenship does not need to be grounded in anything further than practicality, and if groups have such a strong attachment to their language or cultural practices they may exit.



As argued above, Young and Kymlicka’s theories of the politics of difference fail to be theoretically consistent, and are grounded on controversial concepts that they put forth with naïve moral certitude. The equality they propose to bring about between groups will obviously chip away a group’s uniqueness and have lasting affects on its character. Furthermore, Kymlicka’s theory would only allow groups that promote individual autonomy – a requirement that will exclude numerous groups. Kukathas’ theory, with the minor correction recommended herein, is theoretically superior to the others and is not based on damaging ethnocentric assumptions. His theory encompasses the most diversity and is obviously the best solution to ethnic, individual, and group tension.

Works Cited

Gaus, Gerald and Chandran Kukathas. Handbook of Political Theory. London: Sage Publications, 2004.



Hampson, Fen and Judith Reppy (editors). Chapter Five Will Kymlicka. Ithaca, Cornell University Press, 1996.

Hawkings, Deborah. “Tolerance and Freedom of Association: A Lockean State of Nature.” Social Theory and Practice (Oct. 2004): 589-598.

Kukathas, Chandran. “Liberalism and Multiculturalism: The Politics of Indifference.” Political Theory (Oct. 1998): 686-699.

---. The Liberal Archipelago: A Theory of Diversity and Freedom. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.

Kymlicka, Will. Multicultural Citizenship. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995.

---. “The Rights of Minority Cultures.” Political Theory (Feb. 1992): 140-146.

Young, Iris. Justice and the Politics of Difference. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1990.

Comments

Avatar for HG

Sparkie,

Quite a read.  Maybe I missed it, but who then is the final arbiter of the “minimal moral conception needed for peaceful coexistence”, and what is the basis and extent of such morality?

I have to agree in part to the indifference approach, but at the same time, without a national culture and identitiy, I don’t see how such a society would function for very long.

HG on April 6, 2007 at 07:41 pm

but who then is the final arbiter of the “minimal moral conception needed for peaceful coexistence”

i break with kukathas and suggest that no inalienable rights are needed. he believes we should have only the inalienable right to exit, more or less. any group can swallow any other group, but there must be freedom of conscience… one must not go against his conscience. this need not be inalienable or metaphysical in nature, rather accepted as a just means of allowing the most freedom and the least intrusion. freedom to associate or disassociate as one’s conscience allows. no money to prop up ‘groups’. no forced associations. freedom HG.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 6, 2007 at 08:52 pm
Avatar for HG

I follow you there Sparkie. I am more interested to know what the “minimal moral conception” would mean in terms of laws which all would have to obey regardless of association and who would be the arbiter of those laws, which without anarchy results.

HG on April 7, 2007 at 06:41 am

without a national culture and identitiy, I don’t see how such a society would function for very long

the piece doesn’t say there shouldn’t be a “national culture and identity"… it merely says that it shouldn’t be protected by the government any more than any other ‘culture’ and people should be free to break with that group. and the government shouldn’t force adherence to any one group or value set that is against one’s conscience. obviously it doesn’t protect lawbreaking or murder endorsing groups. to break the law is still to break the law, i merely suggest that the law should not prop up outmoded languages or groups based on the goal of diversity. also, as evidenced in the paper, most of the difference and mandated diversity advocates actually strip away some freedom of association and would even ban christian or other religious groups who do not allow internal challenges to their belief and value sets. the politics of difference is a bunch of nutjobs who think they have access to certain knowledge that they dont. furthermore, the assume chauvinistic ideals that they assume everyone will capitulate to their definitions. many on SA do this and this is my reaction. its for the libs and the Christian elitists.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 06:42 am

basically those who don’t like the laws, or still feel discriminated or whatever… are free to let the door hit them on the ass on the way out. the arbiter of the laws will still be the government. it is non-preferential and consistent with the ideals of the founders, i feel. furthermore, its unfair to tax a certain group and give special preference with the money to another group to preserve their language or to prop them up if they are becoming outmoded.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 06:49 am
Avatar for HG

What sort of laws will the government enforce on all, and what will be the basis for such law?

You see the problem we are having in America where fundamental laws are being re-interpreted by judges and others legislated by judges even with a clearly constructed constitution.  With no basis for law except expediency, do you not have a fluid foundation, and therefore no foundation at all? Inalienable rights, while you disagree with them in theory, are the foundation of our laws and form of government.  Without a fixed point of reference, there is only the morality or immorality of chauvinist government officials to rely upon.

HG on April 7, 2007 at 07:09 am

Without a fixed point of reference, there is only the morality or immorality of chauvinist government officials to rely upon.

Our founders were very much coming out of the enlightenment with all the inalienable rights stuff. It is necessarily chauvinistic to their own philosophy despite its granting (or for metaphysical believers: recognizing the true, objective nature of) much freedom. its what they needed, groundwork and foundation wise, to break with other assumed metaphysical ideals that preceded them. I genuinely don’t think that they would force strict adherence to their philosophy - as their philosophy appears to be against that type of activity. Freedom of conscience is arm waved at in the ‘pursuit of happiness’ and the like. Its great and all, I just don’t buy the ‘metaphysical’ aspect of it and I think comparable substitutes can be made without that aspect. It seems arbitrary to make it part of the metaphysical machinery if there are plenty of freedom generating rationalizations. the freedom(s) need not be grounded metaphysically. it can simply be grounded in that it allows more freedom than the alternatives. deserving the freedom is to be a law abiding citizen. The government can be however it wants with respect to ignoring the whines. Generally influenced by the majority but not biased against disassociation - even if it entails emigrating. I don’t think one need provide any funds for those who wish to emigrate elsewhere either. they can pay, no matter the expense, if they want to leave. truly i think it would be sweet to stay because one can act however they want within the law and their money isn’t going to prop-up anachronistic cultures. the only people to leave would be the fringe minorities who feel the government won’t capitulate to their whining enough and… don’t let the door hit em… and if a ‘cultural group’ is able to thrive… that’s great too. again, it does not force grey clothes and wooden shoes for everyone. quite the opposite HG.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 07:31 am

In essence, Rational Anarchism.

What has been taking form for several decades in American and European culture is enforced homogenization cloaked as “diversity”. When, in point of fact, it is the opposite of diversity. A continuing forced elimination of ethnic/cultural distinctions in the name of Equality.

Our founding fathers espoused that all men were equal before the eyes of the law, their base assertion being that all men were equal before the eyes of God. They put this forward as a founding principle of our nation because all men are, in reality, not equal. There are VAST differences between individuals, and to attempt to pretend otherwise is a recipe for disaster.

Nice piece, spark. Is this the field you are working on that Doctorate in?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 7, 2007 at 10:05 am

2h9
No. I am interested in this stuff because the type of base assumptions made by those who espouse theories that are pro-diversity are never inspected. It collapses on itself. What it appears to protect and encourage, it undermines. I like to have theoretical ammo for all kinds of discussions - also theory is fundamental to knowing why to make certain types of decisions, politically, on a daily basis. In school I am interested in epistemology and action theory. A bizarre mix of epistemology, philosophy of science (causation), and some other stuff.
This is politics. Eff all the millionaire egomaniacs running around saving us from ourselves. I do think non-screen (face to face) politics encourages more honesty, this (blogs, forums) is still politics in a big way and anonymity affords some things to come out that might not face to face. We care about certain things. We are here to share and extend the thoughts of others in ways they might not have otherwise for the betterment of all our understandings. Its like turning the nutjobs all loose on the town… it makes everyone a bit more tolerant, whether they like it or not.
Furthermore, if we have Christian elitists and big government/parenting backers in our midst its important for them to consider this kind of stuff in a slippery slope kinda way. What benefits do they, as a group, expect from the government (in the way of coddling outmoded cultural artifacts like languages et al) and is it rational? Would they freak out if some other group were demanding comperable consideration/coddling?
Just extending the thought and providing ammo against the ‘diversity’ whiners. Many here will no doubt retain the metaphysical nature of certain grounding rights. Fine, you still have ammo to debunk assumptions about fairness and equality. It is also interesting to consider insofar as what amount of plasticity in interpreting the constitution is appropriate and what amount isn’t? Its clearly not intended to be a ‘static’ document, but it shouldn’t be maligned in the name of ‘progress’.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 12:07 pm

Sparkie,
You guys are too smart for me. Haven’t read that much since I spent two years in prison.
Maybe, I will try to digest it later tonite, after a few snipes of some alcoholic brew.

Eneils Bailey on April 7, 2007 at 12:19 pm

Eniels
Its a little verbose and abstract, but I like beating people on their home field.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 12:25 pm

Quinn’s 1st Law in action. Liberals/leftists always generate the exact opposite effect from their stated intent. While those on the far right just generally screw up every thing.

I sent this to Wifey, she is the one with the Big Brain, I’m just backwoods trash that wants eveyone to leave me alone.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 7, 2007 at 12:35 pm

sparkie are those labs?smile


check out Goon’s World

http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

http://redneckndgoon.blogspot.com/

goon on April 7, 2007 at 12:44 pm

goon
yes. labs. brown one’s mine.

2h9
that sounds like me and the girl. i enjoy it because she adds insight to everything. on this she said, and I quote, “what do people think, rights grow out of their ass?”

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 12:50 pm

Sparkie so you have a chocolate lab? Can he hunt?
That’s my boy on my avitar.


check out Goon’s World

http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

http://redneckndgoon.blogspot.com/

goon on April 7, 2007 at 01:10 pm

Sparkie,
I want a Chocolate Lab.
Went grocery shopping earlier today. Took Queen Cleo with me. Gave her a romp at the local doggie park. There was Chocolate young Lab dog there. Queen Cleo played like a pup. Spread those front legs, lowered the head, jumped and ran, did a lot of butt-dancing, think she enjoyed herself.
Sometimes, I wish we could have as much fun as dogs, who meet, sniff each other, and then all is right with the world.

Eneils Bailey on April 7, 2007 at 01:31 pm

Goon,
That’s a good-looking boy.
This has evolved into Lab-o-Rama.
Good looking cat, 2H9, we have to respect the pussies in our lives.

Eneils Bailey on April 7, 2007 at 01:42 pm

That is the little princess, Jelical, Killing Machine. As I type she is outside my window, stalking birds around the feeder. Her and Squeaky, her sister, are 2 years old at the end of this month.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 7, 2007 at 02:02 pm

My dog hates Labs for what ever reason. When Ever I take him to the Vet he can smell one out from a mile away I am not sure what it is.


check out Goon’s World

http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

http://redneckndgoon.blogspot.com/

goon on April 7, 2007 at 02:09 pm

2H9.
I have five bird feeders outside my circa 1950 picture window.
My cat, Mister Willford has his own recliner, in the den, he loves to bird-watch from that position.

Mister Willford loves to come up, when I am typing, and squat his fuzzy ass on my keyboard. I pay attention to him or suffer the consequences.

Eneils Bailey on April 7, 2007 at 02:13 pm

I think, when selecting labradors, its important to pick the most relaxed, mellow one you can. as far as hunting dogs go, mellow labradors are the best. hyper dogs have problems with mauling birds before they can get it back to you. he hasn’t been hunting for about three years. he (Jim) and i did a six month ‘school’ for him when he was 1 or so. he’s one of those dogs that will sit and stay in the same place for three hours until you tell him its ok. well, he might lay down, but in the same spot.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 02:30 pm

my mom is a veterinarian, so growing up we had all kinds of pets. whenever the treatment exceeds the cost of a bullet, lots of backwoods folk don’t have much choice, no matter how much they love their pet. we had a cat who got caught in a fox trap, ripped it out of the ground and drug it home. owners couldn’t afford the amputation and treatment so we ended up with one tough ass three legged barn cat. another time we got a small sheep under similar circumstances. its name was ‘leg o lamb’. lots of our tasty animals would get cute names like that and disappear at about their tastiest. we used to have meat chickens, a cow or two, always at least 3 horses, lambs, a pig or two, a goat at one point… yea. now that its just Jim, its much more pleasurable. animals require infrastructure of their own.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 02:50 pm

I love bragging about my baby, best dog in the world, as is yours.
Dogs, a good one, when raised properly, you understanding them, the dog understanding you, leads to a unique relationship.

Eneils Bailey on April 7, 2007 at 02:57 pm

2H9 is insisting I post so you can see my tiny little baby puppy dog.  She was half Shepherd, half Lab (which makes this on topic, sort of) and was a super good dog for 12 years.  We aren’t good dog trainers in particular, but baby Gunther puppy was smart and had real good instincts about what and who to put up with, and who and what to distrust.  She wasn’t a dog who liked everybody. 

We have another dog, and we are sort of looking for a puppy (we are used to having two dogs), but I am holding out for another Shepherd/Lab mix.  I wish you could see the entire picture - she’s pretty mellow here, but could be *quite* intimidating.  I wasn’t afraid to go anywhere with her - unless someone was out to get me in particular, I figured people would bother the person without the big black dog with them. I swear we could leave the truck running with the keys inside and no one would dare take it if Gunther was inside.  Tonka, not so much, though she does her best.

Happy now, Hon?

Wifey on April 7, 2007 at 03:44 pm

Wifey
12 years is slightly more than a median age for medium/large dogs. one can’t expect much more than that, without constant medical care or lots of luck, from anything but a terrier. the mutts do better than the pure breds. our black lab is getting arthritic and deaf… she’s 12 or 13 now. All our dogs are the sweet, but if someone they don’t know or like comes knocking… the hair on top of their shoulders goes up and they make the scariest noises! the if-you-come-in-here-i’m-going-to-chew-your-throat-like-beef-jerky noises. i have three or four friends that the dogs just hate no matter what. they have a bad vibe or something.
My mom had a great lab/mutt. It almost looked like a german shepard-lab mix, but it was a little lanky, its ears were too big, and the rear hips weren’t shepard looking. when it was 1 and a half it went out and ate the neighbors compost/manure pile or some poison or a toxic plant. it had some serious neural issues and bought the farm. my mom was devastated.
my dog’s mom, lilly, a black lab, used to get winter training. my little sister would bury herself in the snow and then yell for the dog to help. Lilly would dig her out and make sure her face was warm and slobbery.
at some point in the future i would like to get a german wire haired pointer and train it to hunt. those dogs are smart too, just not quite as personable as a lab.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 05:05 pm

goon
nice dog. it took a couple loads before the avatar behaved. looks like a distinguished older gentleman dog.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 7, 2007 at 05:11 pm
Avatar for esbeees

Good read,

Ultimately however, it’s all handbags, and it is so fundamentally dictated by which definition/value of liberalism you abide by that there is no ‘best solution’ to ethnic, individual and group tension.

If you choose to believe Barry in that ‘Nobody, anywhere in the world, should be denied liberal protections against injustice and oppression.’ then you enter into a rather grey, middle of the road, testicles on the fence position where you just don’t fall within autonomy or tolerance. Your essay is rather conspicuous in that it fails to address any of the criticism levelled to Kukathas by Brian Barry, incidentally. You are spot on in denouncing Kymlicka’s rather shambolic and myopic theory as lacking the means to actually resolve the liberal achilles heel of multiculturalism. Rather akin to running 25 miles of a marathon and then chopping your arms and legs off because you can’t quite bear to make it to the finish line.

esbeees on April 16, 2007 at 04:41 pm

esbees.
thanks for the feedback. i’ll dig in, read some barry and perhaps re-edit it… sometime in the distant future. or just rewrite it. sometimes the attempts to edit just leave one with a cumbersome incoherent mess.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 04:50 pm

BTW
Barry says that if someone has a disadvantage that they aren’t responsible for, they are due compensation. He’s just as bad as Kymlicka and the others… but instead of group individuated rights, he wants individual individuated rights - good god. I ain’t a fan of his, however I should have addressed his criticisms herein.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 16, 2007 at 04:54 pm

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us


All who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth. —Aristotle ...

Joel on April 22, 2007 at 04:18 am

So, Joel? You support multi-culturalism and affirmative action?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 22, 2007 at 06:21 am

2h9
Clearly Joel does. He wants the ole govvy-ment to spend a bunch of money preserving kook characteristics of out-moded minority fringe groups whining for shit they don’t want anyone else to be afforded. he wants to personally finance the entire multi-cultural preservation endeavor so that every little bizarro group of kooks from around the world can come to the US and bring us to our knees, stealing all our money, by asserting their ‘rights’ and demanding ‘equality’.

Sparkie Arbuckle on April 22, 2007 at 08:00 am
Avatar for Andy L

You guys are just a bunch of circle-jerk-bastards.

What a bunch of bullshit!

Now and probably forever.  It’s all so fucking sad…

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 03:31 pm

spark? Meet andy. andy? Meet your worst nightmare.

Y’all play nice now. I’m gonna enjoy this.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on May 3, 2007 at 03:37 pm

Andy L
I don’t give a shit when you troll on other posts that out the lecherous, drug addicted reality that is your life. When you troll on my posts, ones that I have put effort and thought into, feel free to attack my positions in a manner that I can respond to and not as you just have. I suggest you take the needle out of your arm and actually read the piece. If you have read the piece, feel free to mount an appropriate attack. I figured you would be sympathetic to the piece… but oh, wait! You are a member of a dysfunctional cultural group who want to suck your fellow countrymen dry to feed you alcohol and drug addictions instead of buying shoes for your youth. Well… nevermind.

Sparkie Arbuckle on May 3, 2007 at 03:48 pm

Andy

It’s all so fucking sad.

here you refer to the fact that the policies i have outlined haven’t been implemented and we are still enabling you guys to breed more lecherous, whiny, drug addicted, dysfunctional ‘tribesmen’? people who are proud as you generally have reasons. for example, I am proud of this piece because its pretty airtight and now you have found it - the intended audience. this policy shows no favoritism and is fairer than any existing policies, in part because it avoids employing any definition of ‘fairness’ that begs questions. i also am pleased you found it because it undermines your ‘indigenous’ claims. cheerio!

Sparkie Arbuckle on May 3, 2007 at 03:57 pm
Avatar for Andy L

wait! You are a member of a dysfunctional cultural group who want to suck your fellow countrymen dry to feed you alcohol and drug addictions instead of buying shoes for your youth. Well… nevermind.
Sparkie Arbuckle on May 3, 2007 at 03:48 pm

Well, you sure said a mouthful!  Your words certainly demonstrate your integrity.  You and Rob related?  You sure talk the same.

Andy L on May 3, 2007 at 06:53 pm
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses. Confirm your email address here.