Is Water Boarding Torture?
By
MikeAdamson
on October 26, 2007 at 07:57 am
54 Comments
Of course it is. Duh.
Friday, October 26, 2007
Comments
Not when we do it.
every time dubya opens his mouth it’s a form of torture.
“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08
Not to mention your ignorant and hate-filled comments, Mark.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Nice antiAmerican, antireligious site, Mike!
The reality is that our modern version of waterboarding doesn’t involve the possibility of death, and there are no permanent physical damages, so it isn’t torture, except in the antiAmerican leftie mind.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Sorry, Mike, but any partisan twit who labels judge Michael Mukasey “execrable” clearly has no idea what they are talking about, and is unworthy of any sort of serious consideration. If this is the sort of radic-lib foolishness you’ve sunk to, then you are clearly a far, far less intelligent individual than I had come to believe.
My apologies for having overestimated your intelligence and your judgment.
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
R108,
Actually, while I agree with your opinion of Mark’s very modest cognitive abilities, we should clearly continue to encourage his pointless screeds.
In the first place, his comments are a clear demonstration that having an opinion on a subject has nothing to do with actually knowing what you’re talking about.
Second, Mark’s comments are a very persuasive argument that those on the left simply cannot be entrusted with economic and financial well-being of this country. Any candidate or partisan ideology in any way connected to or endorsed by those with this level of base ignorance should be dismissed out of hand.
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
Actually, while I agree with your opinion of Mark’s very modest cognitive abilities, we should clearly continue to encourage his pointless screeds.
I don’t think he needs any encouragement; his monumental ego provides quite enough.
Second, Mark’s comments are a very persuasive argument that those on the left simply cannot be entrusted with economic and financial well-being of this country. Any candidate or partisan ideology in any way connected to or endorsed by those with this level of base ignorance should be dismissed out of hand.
Absolutely.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Getting back to the question of water-boarding as torture for a moment… so what???
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
I find the warring over the definition of “torture” to be pointless and tiresome. We all have our own moralities. Some people find waterboarding to be unconscionable. I, personally, find the Canadian health care system telling 80 year old women that they can’t get their cancer treated because they’re too old to be worth the tax dollars is unconscionable.
I think the real question is this: If waterboarding a terror detainee will result in intelligence that could stop a terrorist attack and/or save lives, should we do it?
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
Rob: Even more to the point, if terrorists know that nothing very bad will happen to them, even if we catch them, what will be the result of that? Will it make us safer, or less safe? A safety net encourages risky behavior.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Mark’s comments are a very persuasive argument that those on the left simply cannot be entrusted with economic and financial well-being of this country.
Or procreation!
Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!
"Is Water Boarding Torture?”
No.
Next question, please.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
“Is Water Boarding Torture?”
Captain Ed makes a good point over at Captain’s Quarters, where Congressdweebs were grilling Michael Mukasey, nominated by President Bush as the next attorney general.
Here we have Congress, as represented by the Judiciary Committee, demanding that an AG candidate declare a specific act illegal. They have it completely backwards. Congress has the responsibility to pass laws and make the determination of legality and illegality—and the AG has the responsibility to enforce those laws.
Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!
United States v Sawada
1946
Waterboarding was torture then.
Again, for the slow, waterboarding is not torture. Your Muslim heroes need only inhale, drowning themselves in Allah’s name. Then we resuscitate them, make sure they are conscious and paying attention, then explain that they can not have death unless we give it to them. Now THAT would be torture.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Is waterboarding torture? Of course it is. Duh.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
Is waterboarding torture? Of course it is. Duh.
Again… so what? By all accounts, several thousand more individuals, innocent individuals including women and children, may well have died the victims of Islamist terrorism had not Khalid Sheik Mohammed been waterboarded.
So, Mike, got an answer as to just how the information necessary to save those innocent lives ought to have been otherwise obtained? Any other, more “humane” yet effective interrogation techniques you would offer as alternatives? Perhaps even one???
I didn’t think so.
On the other hand, it should come as no great surprise that certain military personnel, those engaged in intelligence gathering, reconnaissance, and nearly all Special Operations warriors are put through a very rigorous course labeled “interrogation resistance.” The course includes a very realistic mock POW experience and a variety of techniques to resist enemy interrogation attempts, among them, waterboarding.
In other words, a technique which you would deny our side against those sworn to destroy us, is routinely used on our own elite forces to train them to resist interrogation by our enemies.
Waterboarding works! Particularly when used against those unprepared for it. I don’t much care what its labeled. Call it aerobic training if that pleases you. Whatever. It works… use it!
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
"Is waterboarding torture? Of course it is. Duh.
An honest brew makes its own friends.
*John Molson*
MikeAdamson on October 29, 2007 at 10:52 pm”
No.
Next question, please.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Oh, and concerning Khalid Sheik Mohammed, turn his non-human ass over to me for 12 hours. I’ll teach him what torture is, and his non-human lawyer could get a good dose of it, too.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Bat One
It works… use it!
You know that if you continue in this line of reasoning that a certain someone will identify you as a believer in “the end justifies the means” and out you as a Marxist. 
I know that you know that a line between unacceptable and acceptable interrogation tactics must exist or we might as well throw in the towel and run the planet in a manner that would please barbarians everywhere. We wouldn’t need to adopt the jihadist vision of course...we could still retain our current beliefs while backing it up with a big “anything goes” stick for enforcement.
Sometimes I think some of the nuances of civilised society escape your comprehension. You can argue that waterboarding is okay because it’s not torture but to argue that it’s okay because it works and because we use it on bad guys to save lives just demonstrates that too many otherwise smart minds are giving in to the enemy IMO. It takes fortitude to stand strong and true to one’s self in the face of evil and horror and, surprisingly enough, you’re not showing much gumption.
2H9
I’ll teach him what torture is, and his non-human lawyer could get a good dose of it, too.
And the difference between yourself and the Sheik is what exactly?
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
And the difference between yourself and the Sheik is what exactly?
I know this is lost on a moral relativist, Mike, but the final outcome is the difference. Whatever we may do to preserve our freedom is essentially different from what they do to impose their totalitarianism on everyone. I know you just don’t get it, but that’s the reality.
I don’t know if you have ever had to fight for your life, Mike, but if you had, you would know that winning the fight is necessary for you to go on living, and so whatever you have to do to win it is what is necessary. The difference is what you do with your life after you win the fight. That is all that matters. All the rest is sophistry, and is the philosophy of defeat practiced by those of your political persuasion.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Allow me to repeat myself:
So, Mike, got an answer as to just how the information necessary to save those innocent lives ought to have been otherwise obtained? Any other, more “humane” yet effective interrogation techniques you would offer as alternatives? Perhaps even one???
What answers do the “nuances of civilized society” have to offer in the interest of that society’s survival, Mike?
What escapes your nuanced attention, Mike, is that the first rule of the game… any game… it to stay in the game.
...but to argue that it’s okay because it works and because we use it on bad guys to save lives just demonstrates that too many otherwise smart minds are giving in to the enemy IMO. It takes fortitude to stand strong and true to one’s self in the face of evil and horror and, surprisingly enough, you’re not showing much gumption.
Mike, its easy enough for those of you on the left to make that sort moral superiority argument from the sidelines, particularly when you have no direct, first hand experience with the ugly reality of war. So I take no offense at your petty sniping. You simply don’t know any better.
Waterboarding isn’t torture at all, though those of you on the left will continue to bray that it is, regardless of the reality. The practice is certainly frightful, as it is intended to be… but no more so than the thought of putting cowardly purveyors of moral equivalence and accommodation such as offered by the Democrats, in charge of our nation’s defenses. That is a truly scary proposition.
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
r108
The difference is what you do with your life after you win the fight. That is all that matters. All the rest is sophistry, and is the philosophy of defeat practiced by those of your political persuasion.
Given that “your way of life” has been under attack virtually since “your way of life” was born, I’m not surprised that you can merrily justify your means by your end while denying anyone who disagrees with you the same option. Interesting if hypocritical.
Bat One
So, Mike, got an answer as to just how the information necessary to save those innocent lives ought to have been otherwise obtained?
Nope but then I know next to nothing about interrogation techniques. I rely on the expertise of experts who determine what will and won’t work and then filter the results through a screen based on common conceptions of humane and civil treatment. It’s obviously very subjective but then what constitutes torture is subjective which is why I admitted that you can easily argue that waterboarding doesn’t apply as a torture technique.
I of course disagree as have the American courts as do most of the sources I have consulted...some braying liberals admittedly but many who are not. I am persuaded by the body of evidence and opinion from varied positions and sources that waterboarding is indeed torture.
What escapes your nuanced attention, Mike, is that the first rule of the game… any game… it to stay in the game.
This hasn’t escaped my attention at all. I simply reject your premise that we have to behave in a barbaric manner to stay in the game. I’m not talking about what happens on the field of battle but what happens in the interrogation room and if you don’t see the difference then I gently submit that your morality is warped IMO.
The practice is certainly frightful, as it is intended to be… but no more so than the thought of putting cowardly purveyors of moral equivalence and accommodation such as offered by the Democrats, in charge of our nation’s defenses. That is a truly scary proposition.
You are entitled to your opinion. I don’t see how the support of barbaric practices is anything other than “moral equivalence” but then I, as you’ve no doubt guessed, firmly believe that the end does not justify the means. I appreciate your thoughts, no matter how repugnant to me they are.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
...I’m not surprised that you can merrily
justify your means by your end while denying anyone who disagrees with you the same option. Interesting if hypocritical.
I’m doing no such thing, Mike. It’s interesting that you would try to project that on me, though. When you can’t come up with a logical answer, you usually try to attack my character or some other aspect of my person.
I deny you no options whatsoever. I merely pointed out that your brand of defeatism has a very predictable outcome. You obviously see no difference between freedom and terrorism, but I do. But then, I’m not a moral relativist.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
...but then what constitutes torture is subjective…
Not true. The only subjective part is the political ideology of the speaker.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Nope but then I know next to nothing about interrogation techniques. I rely on the expertise of experts who determine what will and won’t work and then filter the results through a screen based on common conceptions of humane and civil treatment.
Pretty damn presumptuous when ya think about it, Mike. Knowing nothing at all about the subject, and without the faintest glimmer of an acceptable and effective alternative, you would, in effect, have the rest of us risk our lives for lack of obtainable information merely to satisfy your inner sense of decency. That’s pretty damn arrogant… even for a liberal.
Here’s the reality of the situation: There are people out there who are not merely content to live their own lives like some throwback to the 12th century, but are gleefully willing and eager to slaughter as many innocent persons as they can to make the point and cow the rest of us into surrendering our liberty to their monstrous megalomania. They will blow up airplanes, cut off the faces of their enemies with piano wire, gouge out the eyeballs of their captives, roast children in an oven, bomb cars, buses, restaurants, hotels and children’s daycare centers. And in between all those barbaric adventures, they will teach their women and their children to do the same. To them, your noble sense of decency is a weakness, a decadence to be laughed at and exploited.
And behind each such murderous fanatic, there lurks a Khalid Sheik Mohammed, with the plans, the money, the codes and the calendar.
Now that noble sense of decency is all well and good, so long as you keep it, and your indignation, to yourself. You may reject my premise that we have to behave in what you regard as “a barbaric manner” all you like. But don’t you dare put me, my family, and all that I hold dear in jeopardy just to salve your indignant little conscience. No one has demanded that you get your hands bloody… or even wet. So until you can offer an effective alternative, or are willing to offer yourself up as a sacrifice, please don’t try to impose your indignation on the rest of us. Your piety is duly noted. Okay?
You have no idea what real barbarity is, Mike. Waterboarding ain’t it.
“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”
Here’s the difference, Mike: If a person comes at this country with the intention of destroying our society and culture, the intention of either subjugating us or killing us simply because we don’t subscribe to his ideology, then he should soil himself if we capture him alive, because he should know that we will wring every last bit of information out of him, and then imprison him until the end of the war he makes on us.
If a person comes to us with the intention of participating in what makes our country great, embracing our culture and lifestyle, he will be welcomed with open arms, no matter what his ideology may be. That’s the difference. I repeat, it’s what happens after the fight is over that counts.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
r108
Not true. The only subjective part is the political ideology of the speaker.
It would be helpful then if you would let me in on this objective knowledge. Does God speak to you often?
But then, I’m not a moral relativist.
Maybe not although that’s hard for me to say.
Bat One
Pretty damn presumptuous when ya think about it, Mike. Knowing nothing at all about the subject, and without the faintest glimmer of an acceptable and effective alternative, you would, in effect, have the rest of us risk our lives for lack of obtainable information merely to satisfy your inner sense of decency. That’s pretty damn arrogant… even for a liberal.
Next to nothing as I said. I don’t need to come up with an alternative to be able to see that waterboarding is torture though. As for risk...it’s kind of presumptuous of you to assume that waterboarding has or can save lives. Risk is a funny thin actually...apparently I have a bigger chance of dying in a plane crash than I do of losing my life due to an act of terrorism.
Now that noble sense of decency is all well and good, so long as you keep it, and your indignation, to yourself. You may reject my premise that we have to behave in what you regard as “a barbaric manner” all you like. But don’t you dare put me, my family, and all that I hold dear in jeopardy just to salve your indignant little conscience.
I’m not sure that’s fair. I haven’t held your support of your government’s misguided, incompetent and counter-productive efforts to combat jihadism against you personally. It’s not like the West hasn’t faced threats before and that we won’t again in the future...what makes this threat so much worse than any other in our history that we have to resort to interrogation tactics developed and practiced by evil cowards?
Your piety is duly noted. Okay?
Noted...as is your lack of faith in the superiority of western morality and our way of life.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
But then, I’m not a moral relativist.Maybe not although that’s hard for me to say.
Very funny, Mike; thanks for the chuckle.
Noted...as is your lack of faith in the superiority of western morality and our way of life.
Now you’re just being silly.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Not silly at all...the history of the western world is full of individuals marked by courage and faith in ourselves on the one hand and the chicken little set on the other. Always has, always will.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
"And the difference between yourself and the Sheik is what exactly?”
The difference is that your hero murders women and children for his sexual gratification. That makes him sub-human, and open to any treatment I deem appropriate.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Not silly at all...the history of the western world is full of individuals marked by courage and faith in ourselves on the one hand and the chicken little set on the other. Always has, always will.
A statement that is so generally true as to be meaningless in the context of defining Bat or any other true patriot. The truth is, those of us who want to defeat the terrorists do so because we believe in “the superiority of western morality and our way of life”, as you put it.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
2H9...Gordie Howe murders women and children? News to me.
r108
The truth is, those of us who want to defeat the terrorists do so because we believe in “the superiority of western morality and our way of life”, as you put it.
I couldn’t agree more. I certainly don’t question anyone here about his/her desire to defeat jihadism but I do wonder about the methods required...some panic and revert to primitive instinct while others keep their heads and rely on the principles that make our morality superior.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
...some panic and revert to primitive instinct while others keep their heads and rely on the principles that make our morality superior.
A false dichotomy. The reality is that if we don’t win, our superior morality vanishes. The false premise you have here is that if we do what is necessary to win, we are forever committed to doing that. As I have repeated many times, it’s what happens after victory that matters; study WWII sometime. We did what we had to do to win, then reverted to our usual way of life. We haven’t nuked anyone since, btw, so your premise is simply false.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
...some panic and revert to primitive instinct…
If you had ever been in a fight for your life, Mike, you would know that the thing that gets you dead very quickly is panic. You have to keep your head and calculate exactly what you need to do to win, which is what we do. It’s the lefties who panic.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
It’s the lefties who panic.
That should be: “It’s the lefties who panic and run away.” I apologize for my error.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
r108
The reality is that if we don’t win, our superior morality vanishes.
I can’t argue with that but I can argue with your premise that the fight against the jihadists is a life and death struggle with our very existence at stake. Obviously in your mind that is the case and you are welcome to your opinion. The dichotomy I raise is not false because history demonstrates we have won conflicts while honouring our principles of civilised behaviour.
If you had ever been in a fight for your life, Mike, you would know that the thing that gets you dead very quickly is panic. You have to keep your head and calculate exactly what you need to do to win, which is what we do. It’s the lefties who panic.
It’s not of course any more than it’s the right who panic...there are many on both sides who are inclined to take the easy way out and by that I mean the undisciplined and ill conceived application of force rather than a considered approach to the problem at hand...which brings us back to waterboarding I might add.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
I can argue with your premise that the fight
against the jihadists is a life and death struggle with our very existence at stake.
Your argument isn’t with me; it’s with the jihadists who say exactly that. For them, there is no room in this world for anyone who doesn’t adhere to their ideology.
I mean the undisciplined and ill conceived application of force rather than a considered approach to the problem at hand…
Like Neville Chamberlain? We are going to end up with an ally in the center of the ME, instead of a guy who thought of himself as the Hitler of the ME, with the ambition of controlling the price and supply of oil, and who would still be using the misappropriated funds from the UN “Oil for Food” program to bribe the weak European nations. Not really either “undisciplined” or “ill-conceived”, but you can continue to claim that. The evidence is against you.
By the way, I did amend my statement about panic to include running away, which is exactly what lefties do when they are faced with a reality they can’t handle. The problem is, this reality will come and kill them in their beds if the rest of us don’t stop it.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Why do those on the left want us to apply politically correct rules to warfare? War, by its very nature is an irrational act by some nut jobs against others, because they are unable to gain their own ends by any rational, civil act and so they try and force their will upon others by murder.
In this case we were attacked and thousands of our people were murdered by irrational, murderous Islamic religious zealouts (cheap thugs) because they want to force their will and their god upon the West. So, in our own defense we responded militarily to resist the murderous intentions of these madmen; when we then fight them in the field, did they suddenly decide that they would fight by civilized rules of warfare and obey international laws? No! They strap explosives on their backs or in cars and kill thousands of innocent Muslins and our soldiers.
Despite this uneven style of warfare placing our soldiers at unnecessary risk, the Left still demands our soldiers not fight to win, but only resist in a civilized way in order that no innocent people or too many terrorist are accidently killed in the process, why because the terrorists might get pissed off and hate us even more.
Then the Left says that if we capture the enemy, even in order to save the lives of our own soldiers and other innocent people, we have to play nice and be fair. So, in our interrogations we ask the enemy, “Hey Mr. misunderstood, murderous terrorist, would you please tell me where your people are going to strike us next so we can prepare our defense and protect our people? No? Okay, well thanks so much for allowing me to ask the question. Now, what can we add to the menu that will satisfy your sensitive Islamic palate, can we give you a big print version of the Koran or do anything else to make sure you are happy? Oh, you want a lawyer, a nicer prison and all the rights of United States citizens? Sure, we are glad to help! Now, can you help us by telling us the names of any of your murderous friends? No! Well, okay have a nice day!”
My Lord, even frat house games by a bunch of morons at Abu Graib were defined as torture, as was allegedly pissing on the Koran! An Army officer was in hot water for shoorting near a terrorist to get him to tell him where the enemy was hiding and that was bad, it hurt the terrorist by causing him to feel fear. We waterboard and that causes discomfort and fear, although there are no injuries or death and that is wrong. Well, pardon me all to hell, but if we send our soldiers to fight screw the damn rules, fight to win. If we had followed that simple policy we would have been out or Iraq years ago, we would have increased the kills by tens of thousands, but we would be out of Iraq by now! We would have also won in Vietnam and many thousands of Soldiers would still be alive. But, oh no! We must play by the damn rules even if it kills us and it does, only not the damn legislators, it is our soldiers that pay the price.
Note: This fight against waterboarding pisses me off and I don’t give a damn whose feelings I hurt!
No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.
r108
Your argument isn’t with me; it’s with the jihadists who say exactly that.
I know I’m at odds with the jihadists but you are also on record as characterising the conflict as a life and death struggle so I’m arguing with you. My beef with the jihadists is based on their warped interpretation of the demands of Islam while my beef with you is based on your willingness to throw aside the principles that make our moral system superior.
Like Neville Chamberlain?
Weak rhetoric.
We are going to end up with an ally in the center of the ME, instead of a guy who thought of himself as the Hitler of the ME, with the ambition of controlling the price and supply of oil, and who would still be using the misappropriated funds from the UN “Oil for Food” program to bribe the weak European nations.
I doubt that and even if true, I’m not sure how much help that would be given that some of our current allies in the Middle East aren’t proving very helpful in our fight against the terrorists.
The problem is, this reality will come and kill them in their beds if the rest of us don’t stop t.
You’re entitled to your opinion but the probability of that happening is very low IMO.
Neiman
Why do those on the left want us to apply politically correct rules to warfare?
I’m actually talking about interrogation rather than fighting. I agree that the battlefield is home to the nastiest of business and practicality demands different standards of behaviour there. I don’t like it but that’s just the way it is.
So, in our own defense we responded militarily to resist the murderous intentions of these madmen;
No, America and its allies attacked Iraq and deposed Saddam which in a round about way is supposed to be an answer to the 911 attack although I believe it to be a way of time and resources.
Then the Left says that if we capture the enemy, even in order to save the lives of our own soldiers and other innocent people, we have to play nice and be fair.
It does suck to be us sometimes in that we have to remain true to our principles at all times and not just when it’s convenient. If we wanted to ensure our security at all costs then we should be adopting the jihadist goal of forcibly converting everyone to our way of thinking or eliminating them and living a life predicated on enforcing our will. That’s not what the West is about though so we’re stuck with playing by the rules of our choosing.
We waterboard and that causes discomfort and fear, although there are no injuries or death and that is wrong.
If I thought this was true then I wouldn’t object to waterboarding.
Note: This fight against waterboarding pisses me off and I don’t give a damn whose feelings I hurt!
Fair enough...just remember to let a smile be your umbrella.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
I know I’m at odds with the jihadists but you are also on record as characterising the conflict as a life and death struggle so I’m arguing with you. I repeat, my position is based on listening to what the jihadists say, and on what they do. My beef with the jihadists is based on their warped interpretation of the demands of Islam while my beef with you is based on your willingness to throw aside the principles that make our moral system superior. You’re just wrong on that, and I have explained why ad nauseum, so I have to assume you just don’t or won’t get it.
Like Neville Chamberlain?Weak rhetoric. Actually, it is right on the money. NC, like you, refused to believe the real threat actually exists. He thought he could appease the Nazis and negotiate with them, just like you lot want to do with the terrorists. You are just wrong.
We are going to end up with an ally in the center of the ME, instead of a guy who thought of himself as the Hitler of the ME, with the ambition of controlling the price and supply of oil, and who would still be using the misappropriated funds from the UN “Oil for Food” program to bribe the weak European nations.
I doubt that and even if true, I’m not sure how much help that would be given that some of our current allies in the Middle East aren’t proving very helpful in our fight against the terrorists. Read the Duelfer Report, and get back to me. It’s all in there. You’re also wrong about the alliances, since there is unification in Iraq against the terrorists, and it’s growing on a daily basis. They are recognizing that we are the good guys.
The problem is, this reality will come and kill them in their beds if the rest of us don’t stop t.
You’re entitled to your opinion but the probability of that happening is very low IMO. It’s not an opinion, it’s fact, and it’s happening all over the world every day. Check into Southern Thailand sometime.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
"Is Water Boarding Torture?
By MikeAdamson on October 26, 2007”
No. Next question, please.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
r108
I repeat, my position is based on listening to what the jihadists say, and on what they do.
Then you’re a sucker for propaganda. Just because the jihadists say they’re going to cream us and just because the jihadists occasionally are successful in carrying out a terrorist attack doesn’t mean they have the means to pose the type of threat to western society that you believe they do. I’m not saying they don’t pose a threat at all, just not one that threatens our way of life...unless we allow them to terrorise us so much that we panic and change our way of life on our own.
Actually, it is right on the money. NC, like you, refused to believe the real threat actually exists. He thought he could appease the Nazis and negotiate with them, just like you lot want to do with the terrorists. You are just wrong.
I don’t think so. I think you’re wrong in comparing the jihadist threat to that posed by the Nazis in the 1930’s. I think such a comparison is obviously ridiculous.
Read the Duelfer Report, and get back to me. It’s all in there. You’re also wrong about the alliances, since there is unification in Iraq against the terrorists, and it’s growing on a daily basis. They are recognizing that we are the good guys.
This is a prime example of the “enemy of my enemy is my friend fallacy.” It’s true that Iraq is not very welcoming of the international jihadist presence but that doesn’t mean that we should expect Iraq to develop into an influential ally in the war on terror. They want AQIM out of their country period and that desire doesn’t translate into the wiilingness or ability to involve themselves beyond that.
It’s not an opinion, it’s fact, and it’s happening all over the world every day. Check into Southern Thailand sometime.
It’s opinion...get back to me once terrorist attacks become a significant problem on our continent.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
2H9
No. Next question, please.
Why are commercials so much louder than the tv programs they interrupt? It’s very annoying.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
"Is Water Boarding Torture?
By MikeAdamson on October 26, 2007 at 10:57 am”
No. Next question, please.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Because morons like you run TV programing.
Next question, please.
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
Why do morons double post messages?
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
Then you’re a sucker for propaganda. That would be you, actually. You have obviously swallowed the “terrorism is just a bumper sticker” lunacy of our lefties. Just because the jihadists say they’re going to cream us and just because the jihadists occasionally are successful in carrying out a terrorist attack doesn’t mean they have the means to pose the type of threat to western society that you believe they do. “Occasionally"??? They are doing it all over the world on a daily basis. Wake up. I’m not saying they don’t pose a threat at all, just not one that threatens our way of life...unless we allow them to terrorise us so much that we panic and change our way of life on our own. The only ones panicking are the lefties who want to cut and run out of fear of the Islamofascists.
I don’t think so. I think you’re wrong in comparing the jihadist threat to that posed by the Nazis in the 1930’s. I think such a comparison is obviously ridiculous. Actually, it’s right on target. Saddam and Mahmoud are both(were, in Saddam’s case) great admirers of Hitler and Nazism, and Mahmoud is a holocaust denier.This is a prime example of the “enemy of my enemy is my friend fallacy.” It’s not a fallacy, but that isn’t the point. Iraq was our enemy, and now it will end up as our friend. Big difference. It’s true that Iraq is not very welcoming of the international jihadist presence but that doesn’t mean that we should expect Iraq to develop into an influential ally I only said “ally in the ME”, not “influential ally” in the war on terror. Nice trick, but no sale. in the war on terror. They want AQIM out of their country period and that desire doesn’t translate into the wiilingness or ability to involve themselves beyond that. Like you, they would be foolish to do other than ally with us.
It’s opinion...get back to me once terrorist attacks become a significant problem on our continent. When you get called on your BS, you change the subject. Terrorist attacks are killing people every day all over the world. Fact.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
I don’t know. Why do you double post?
Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem
When you get called on your BS, you change the subject.
I’m not sure what you mean by this but I do note that you’ve changed the subject from my original question about waterboarding to a platitude drenched hymn of support for the invasion of Iraq.
Slick move.
2H9
It can be a compositional device but more often it’s simply a quick finger on the submit link.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
I’m not sure what you mean by this but I do note that you’ve changed the subject from my original question about waterboarding to a platitude drenched hymn of support for the invasion of Iraq.
Not only is the war against terrorism not a “bumper sticker”, it isn’t about “platitudes” either. Nice try, though. The reason we have gotten to this point is my destroying your naive denial of the dangers of terrorism. After all, waterboarding isn’t necessary if they aren’t really trying to destroy us, is it? Maybe they’re just cranky and misunderstood. /sarcasm
Save America; boycott the MSM.
WOOF:
United States v Sawada
1946 Waterboarding was torture then.
That wasn’t water boarding, at least the form authorized by the US congress.
Rather it’s more like this:
The so-called ‘water treatment’ was commonly used. The victim was bound or otherwise secured in a prone position; and water was forced through his mouth and nostrils into his lungs and stomach until he lost consciousness. Pressure was then applied, sometimes by jumping upon his abdomen to force the water out. The usual practice was to revive the victim and successively repeat the process.
You’re actually injuring the individual in this process. In fact repeated usage of it kills the victim.
Seems to me a necessary criteria for torture is the willful infliction of physical injury. I think any decent Middle-Age inquisitor would agree with me and regard anybody who thought differently as an effeminate sissy.
If it’s just being put in a stressful situation, being put in jail would qualify…
r108
The reason we have gotten to this point is my destroying your naive denial of the dangers of terrorism.
I’m glad you can retain your sense of humour...have a nice day.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
Your continued ability to deny the reality of the threats to our freedom by Islamofascism, neocommunism and neomalthusianism is brought to you by our brave warriors, who do the dirty work. You should wish them a nice day.
Save America; boycott the MSM.
Oh I do, I do.
"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”
Irving Kristol
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