Say Anything Blog

bushie is doing a heckofajob.

They hate us because of our freedom.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Mike:

First, if this is an accurate accounting of the memo then anyone who claims that America does not or did not employ torture is terribly naive or a fool.

The excerpt Mike is basing this accusation on:

John Yoo checked with the Criminal Division as to whether the military could torture and maim detainees in a war, and that Division, which ordinarily strongly resists narrowing constructions of criminal statutes, agreed that the torture and maiming (and other) statutes were inapplicable.

Just because Yoo checked doesn’t mean the military did any such thing.  Which makes me wonder about your motivations for jumping to such a conclusion.

Wake me up when you’ve got evidence which proves that my country condoned torture.  And by torture I don’t mean dunking people in water to make them think they might be drowning, because that’s not torture.

Until then, know that I wouldn’t accuse your country of such atrocities without proof more solid than this.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

They hate us because of our apples.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

bushie is doing a heckofajob.

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

RBB

They hate us because of our freedom.

They hate us because of our apples.

LOL

Torture is a myth created by the liberal media.

“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Just because Yoo checked doesn’t mean the military did any such thing

Yes they did.

Two thoughts on the subject of torture:

* The Geneva Accord was written by and signed among the civilized nations to provide basic human rights for prisoners in traditional warfare and it was based pretty much on the theory of reciprocity: what you don’t to us, we won’t do to you. The question of what terrorists might do could never be fully addressed.

* There is virtually no argument that the founders of our nation wanted to sever us from centuries of European torture and brutality toward prisoners and the accused. The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are powerful statements of our intent never to stoop to such practices. Let’s keep it that way.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

…it was based pretty much on the theory of reciprocity: what you don’t to us, we won’t do to you. The question of what terrorists might do could never be fully addressed.

Translation: We will only be a good as our worst enemy.

Call the lamplighter, we won’t need that one on the hill anymore.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Well, rbb, lets not get carried away… We have been and will remain that Shining City.

... doesn’t mean that we can’t or won’t err.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

First, if this is an accurate accounting of the memo then anyone who claims that America does not or did not employ torture is terribly naive or a fool.

Great. I’m neither a fool or naïve.

Second, if the circumstances surrounding certain Administration appointments are accurately portrayed then anyone who claims that the Bush Administration has not engaged in cynical manipulation and hackery of the highest quality is naive or a fool.

Well, except for the hackery part, then …Great. I’m neither a fool or naïve.

If Lederman’s analysis turns out to be wrong then I will be quick to slap up a mea culpa and engage in ritual self-humiliation

Gee, what are the chances?

“...can authorize cutting out a tongue and poking out an eye—nothwithstanding a statute that would prohibit that very conduct? “

I’m sure this deserves more than the pretermit of a conservative hack like myself, perhaps you could explain your devotion or infatuation to Mr. Lederman.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Rob

Just because Yoo checked doesn’t mean the military did any such thing.

That’s true logically but if the legal justification for torture has been made then I’d be surprised if torture wasn’t utilised. I haven’t read the whole report yet and if I’m out of line then you’ll hear from me on that.

pp

The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are powerful statements of our intent never to stoop to such practices. Let’s keep it that way.

Well, rbb, lets not get carried away… We have been and will remain that Shining City.

... doesn’t mean that we can’t or won’t err.

Agreed.

lds

perhaps you could explain your devotion or infatuation to Mr. Lederman.

He’s a good writer, he’s smart and he knows what he’s talking about...no devotion or infatuation though.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

I’ve talked to Air Force security personnel that were assigned as guards in Iraqi prisons.

They said that they beat the snot out of eachother which is fine, but they get written up everytime a prisoner wants them too. 

So if they don’t give the prisoner a match for their cigarette they get investigated.

Anyway, without knowing the background on those photos that were posted you don’t know the story.  The bloody one is more likely to be a prisoner on prisoner beating than anything else.  The guard with his fist cocked could be restraining that prisoner.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

… doesn’t mean that we can’t or won’t err.

Authorizing and committing torture is not an “error”.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

rbb: I have tried on several occassions to have an actual dialogue with you, but you seem fascinated by your ability to download snapshots, post pithy oh-so-clever one-liners and make snide references to auntie spelling bee and other childish characters.  I

I have no dogmatic point of view on most issues and I resent being treated as though I did. My post on torture in this thread should have made that clear to you. Instead, you responded by making your little point about ‘lamplighters’ and ‘the hill’.

I have never cursed at you, sullied your intelligence or made fun of your screen name. I

have

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

My bad. “I have accused you...”

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Mike,

I apologize if my comment seemed rather flippant; it was due to the content of Mr. Lederman’s writings, not his illuminating style.

I was however surprised and disturbed by your conclusions.

That’s true logically but if the legal justification for torture has been made then I’d be surprised if torture wasn’t utilised.

Are you so readily to accept that the US, its’ military and its’ agents (in whole) are so evil as to resort to the maiming described by Lederman?

You could properly assign the title ‘ambivalence’ to my reaction to this memo. I could have as easily performed such horrendous acts myself given the proper motivation and the desire to thwart additional attacks on this country. If that seems grossly immoral to you then you might well be justified in your condemnation as long as that pronouncement includes the actions of our enemies.

In the 80 years since the signing and acceptance of Geneva Convention can you name a single conflict where our military has not endured torture by the hands of our enemies with the full blessing of their government? Has our supposed lack of reciprocation deterred the actions of others?

I’m not arguing the acceptance of immoral behavior on our part because it is routinely applied by others, merely that the determination of what exactly constitutes torture is ambiguous. In as much as the mutilation of body parts can certainly be considered torture, does this also apply to sleep deprivation, blaring music and uncomfortable yet sanitary living quarters? Torturous conditions in this regard are ubiquitous and even customary in some parts of the world. Given a choice most would gladly be incarcerated at Guantanamo versus a Thai or UAE prison.

I conclude that it just isn’t among my top 100 priorities whether or not an aspiring terrorist is dealt with humanely. I’ll attend to that when any number of UN member states discontinues their sanctioning of much worse atrocities.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

ldS...no apologies necessary. I am surprised that you are surprised and disturbed by my assumption that, if a government has gone to the trouble of developing a legal justification for policy implementation, it is quite plausible that the government has implemented the policy. Of course it’s not certain or inevitable but I’m not sure why you would formulate a legal rationale for action if the action isn’t at the very least contemplated.

Are you so readily to accept that the US, its’ military and its’ agents (in whole) are so evil as to resort to the maiming described by Lederman?

I don’t know if such an action ever took place but it’s clear that the American government believed it was okay to use such measures...that alone is distressing.

If that seems grossly immoral to you then you might well be justified in your condemnation as long as that pronouncement includes the actions of our enemies.

It does...if I could read and write Arabic then I could utilise those forums. Alas, it is you and my other SA friends who are stuck with my pronouncements and misgivings.

In the 80 years since the signing and acceptance of Geneva Convention can you name a single conflict where our military has not endured torture by the hands of our enemies with the full blessing of their government? Has our supposed lack of reciprocation deterred the actions of others?

This is the “two wrongs make a right” formulation which I do indeed reject. If something is wrong, then it’s wrong even if someone else does it.

I’m not arguing the acceptance of immoral behavior on our part because it is routinely applied by others, merely that the determination of what exactly constitutes torture is ambiguous.

Then scratch my previous reply and turn to the existing standards for what constitutes torture...doesn’t the American military have an official position on your question for example?

I conclude that it just isn’t among my top 100 priorities whether or not an aspiring terrorist is dealt with humanely. I’ll attend to that when any number of UN member states discontinues their sanctioning of much worse atrocities.

That’s fair enough although it sounds suspiciously like “two wrongs make a right” to me. I’ll finish by pronouncing that the reason we’re the good guys is because we act “good” and if we slip to the jihadists’ level of barbarism then why should we ever act good?

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

LaydownSally:  While I agree with much of what you say here, I have to agree with Mike’s final conclusion…

the reason wh’re the good guys is because we act good…

My position remains unaltered. Our founders, the Framers, made it clear they expected us to think, act and behave differently than tyrants of any kind.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets and Mike,

I support your positions to the extent that they are derived from your willingness to remain on the high moral ground, just so you know I have no such compunction.

Furthermore, I don’t believe that most in the US who condone the use of torture do so because they are not “good”; they believe the use of such methods will save lives.

We are already better than the barbarians and are not in anyway close to the tyrannical. It is the US beyond any other country on this planet that will make great sacrifices to insure the well being and safety of peoples in other, less fortunate states.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

LdS:

I have no such compunction

Well then, if we as a nation do not stand the high ground, who else will?  And if we argue that torturing prisoners may save lives, then Al Queda, Taliban, North Korea, Venezuela - or anyone else, for that matter - could make the very same argument when torturing an American.

Torture has always been defended as an effort to save something , souls, lives, time, missions, nations, etc. 

In short, we can’t have it both ways. The Framers got it right.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

I guess you all who are squimish about torture (which would only be used by our country to obtain critical defense information) would rather see another 9/11 or even worse one of our cities disappearing at the base of a mushroom cloud.  To put limits on the methodology used for this purpose is to invite disaster.

The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

dd...I imagine the defenders of the Spanish Inquisition said much the same thing.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

Free Tibet!  ...or the Muslim hordes, or the communist re-educators, or the facists around the world, or the JAPS or the hundreds of non-democratic countries the liberals embrace.  They are blind to the real torture carried out in their favorite countries because of?  positive prejudice.

Communism is evil

Torture is wrong anywhere.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

I guess you all who are squimish about torture (which would only be used by our their country to obtain critical defense information)

Saddam
Pol Pot
McCains’ Hanoi hosts.

Hey they were just trying to get a little info. What’s the big deal?

Pp is right.
Yoo is wrong.

Would Jesus fuck a PUC?

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

RBB is a sick piece of shit who blames the acts of a few people on the US government.  He literally smears shit on his own government in the hope that it will benefit his party.

All he does is push anybody in the middle away from the Democratic Party.  He couldn’t be a better advocate for voting against the Democratic Party, which seems to be more interested in opportunism than is what is best for their country.

You have anything to be proud of your country for yet, RBB?

Yes, torture is wrong everywhere.  That would include torturing those in the WTC with fire; jumping to their deaths.  The JAPS, you name it.  Uncivilized, undemocratic countries.  Those who think that interrogation is torture and compare it to the real torture carried out by the uncivilized is making a false comparison.

Communism is evil

Thank you for your kind words, C.

Unfortunately every pole and every voter registration stat that I have seen proves you wrong. 

You are a delusional bush swallower who seems to have absolutely no moral compass.

I love my country, can you say as much?

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Yes, torture is wrong everywhere.

Those who think that interrogation is torture and compare it to the real torture carried out by the uncivilized is making a false comparison.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

C RZ

Those who think that interrogation is torture and compare it to the real torture carried out by the uncivilized is making a false comparison.

I really hope you are right. I hope the American government has not used torture in its effort to combat the terrorists...reading the Yoo opinion is not giving me much comfort though.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

RBB you are a rank propagandist, and your own party would throw people like you under the bus if they could.

You don’t give a fuck about your country.  That is obvious in every piece of pro-terrorist propaganda you run.  You suck.

You couldn’t be more wrong, C.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

MikeA.  I will reply to you.  The definition and perverted use of the word torture is being used as propaganda by several different groups.  In the examples that RBB has posted, they were from one or two shifts at one of a dozen prisons in Iraq.  All the people involved have been prosecuted and punished.
Can RBB or some others say the same for the millions who were tortured and killed in Armenia?  Ukraine?  [Cuba?  N. Korea?  China?] <-- these are communist countries; I will answer because I do not think that a logical or even an honest comparison is possible. 
Were the people shown killed?  I think not.  Were millions killed and tortured by Stalin?  Yes.  Was he prosecuted?  No.  Walter Duranty lied to the American people about how great his five year plans were working except we never knew that the five year plans included killing seven million Ukranians.

Is it torture to falsely accused an honest and innocent man?  Yes, if you want to make a similar comparison.  How about several Lacrosse Players?  Nyphong was prosecuted, but how about the gang of 88 who publicly lynched them with their signed letter condeming them before a trial?

Communism is evil

When you stop spamming the “what I did in Iraq photos” taken by a group of college-aged soldiers I’ll believe it.  When you start laying the blame for Ab Ghraib squarely on the shoulders of their supervisors, ending with General Karpinski, who allowed it to happened, then I’ll believe you.

What went on there doesn’t resemble organizationally sanctioned torture, so much as mob rule. Breakdown of military discipline on that scale cannot and should not be blamed of US governmental policies.

You want to talk about torture on an adult level, instead of pedaling terrorist porn, let us know.

Is flamethrowing JAPS out of caves before their lawyers read them their rights?
Were too many bullets used to kill some others?  Did they get enough food while being transported to their motel rooms?  Did the JAPS care?  NO.  Should we?  Yes, and we do, but micromanaging this Global War on Terrorists is not pretty.  We were attacked by a group of cowards who do not follow the Geneva Convention just like the JAPS did not in WW II.

Communism is evil

chief

Yes, torture is wrong everywhere.  That would include torturing those in the WTC with fire; jumping to their deaths.

Was that the “New Pearl Harbor” or I guess you could call that event the “New Reichstag Fire”.

Amazing what our fascist pigs will do for world domination.

Gave Hitler the opportunity to transform Germany from a republic into a dictatorship.
Hey it worked for Hitler.......and it’s working for Bush

“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D.  The attack on the WTC, pentagon and one other that was thwarted, is just about the same as the attack on Pearl Harbor.  Both were sneak attacks by religious fanatics.  Both involved people who do and did not follow the Geneva Convention rules of armed combat. 
I see now that you, in my opinion, in comparing our President the the NAZI leader in WW II are engaged in a similar nasty tactic.  I will not continue, nor legitimize this with a reply.

Communism is evil

C RZ

The definition and perverted use of the word torture is being used as propaganda by several different groups.

Yes it is but I can assure you that the kind of torture I’m thinking of are actions which are and have been considered “torture” by reasonable and civilised people. Where the line is drawn between “torture” and “rough handling” can be difficult and is open to debate and honest disagreement. I’m speaking of techniques that cause serious physical and/or psychological harm. I know what constitutes “serious” is also open to debate but I trust that you are getting the gist of what I’m saying.

My position is that there is a line which civilised people do not cross, no matter what the provocation or circumstance, and that torture lays on the other side of that line. The fact that our enemies use, have used and will use torture does not grant us license to torture them...it’s simply not what civilised people do.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

Scary....huh

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
- Benito Mussolini

“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Was that the “New Pearl Harbor” or I guess you could call that event the “New Reichstag Fire”.

Amazing what our fascist pigs will do for world domination. Gave Hitler the opportunity to transform Germany from a republic into a dictatorship.
Hey it worked for Hitler.......and it’s working for Bush

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

I like the way you quote Mussolini, the godfather of modern liberism! You guys were made for each other!

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Sorry! liberalism.

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Mike A.  I respect your ideals and agree with most of them.  Specifically I will be glad to lay out my opinions on this later and will check back here in a few hours.

Communism is evil

I hope the American government has not used torture in its effort to combat the terrorists

Mike, that is not one your most brilliant statements.  Why else would tough interrogation methods (torture by your definition) be used except for that purpose?  Do you really think that the law enforcement agencies in your country don’t do likewise where terrorist plots are concerned?  Alas, your stubborn refusal to except realitly concerns me.

The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

RBB:

You couldn’t be more wrong, C

Well, thats the reaction you get from most people when you think that engaging in thoughful dialogue can be reduced to you posting your too, too clever photos and one-liners.  Flies, even gad-flies, just get swatted. [..and you aren’t even good at it.]

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Mike A.  Back.  How about some parameters.  Are we to confine our discussion and definition to the USA in this decade only?  Does it matter if the enemy follows or does not follow the Geneva Convention; if the country has declared war on us like the Germans and Italians did?  Do you think that combatants engaged on the battlefield are able to brush aside the torture of one of our own such as skinning a man and hanging him out to dry salted like the Communist North Vietnamese did?  Are any means approved to kill men on the battlefield such as flame throwers, double canister or sawed off shotguns.  Are we just talking about people who are captured or surrender and then claim prisoner status.  Do you acknowledge the term “spy” and illegal combatant?  What should the US do with/to/about those commanders who authorized and participated in torture of prisoners?  How about situations like Tibet, Communist China, Communist North Korea where the countries torture their own citizens?  What if they invade another country and torture and kill civilians like the Iraqis under Sadam did to Kuwait?  I will await your replies.

Communism is evil

...if we argue that torturing prisoners may save lives, then Al Queda, Taliban, North Korea, Venezuela - or anyone else, for that matter - could make the very same argument when torturing an American.

If you object to torture for moral reasons I have no argument with you. It is that same reasoning why some disagree with the death penalty.

But to abstain from some interrogation techniques, what some label as torture, by comparing the US to the demented Islamic fundamentalists is absurd. These are people who are wholly lacking in any respect for life, liberty and freedom.

The assertion that one of our presidential contenders continually makes is that if the US condones torture then it leaves open the door for our enemies to use the same tactics. Can any reasonable person present evidence that our abstinence has convinced our enemies to reciprocate?

Do you honestly believe al-Qaeda will toss their scimitars aside, store their electrical cables and renounce their practice of torture? Wake me up when Barney Fife has been appointed as their new supreme Ayatohla.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

dd

Why else would tough interrogation methods (torture by your definition) be used except for that purpose?

You’re such a scamp...where or when did I define torture as “tough interrogation measures”?

C RZ...you’re asking for a book. I’m not talking about active fighting on the battlefield. I’m talking about an individual in custody who is subjected to techniques which inflict significant physical and/or psychological harm on that individual. It’s just as wrong when the enemy does it as when we do it. When it’s an act of revenge then it’s still wrong although it’s a bit more understandable in the context of warfare than is the deliberate act of torture used to get information. I’d rather not detour into the field of battlefield weapons because it isn’t applicable to the torture topic.

Torture is wrong whenever and where ever it occurs, no matter who the torturer and the torturee are, no matter the motivation or justification for the act.

Did I miss anything?

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeA.  Fair enough for starters, but I did want to put some of this into context.
Clarification on one of your words that may be at the crux of this discussion:
custody
To me, this implies a legal term referring to a person who is under arrest for an alleged crime.  Can we stick to either POW or illegal combatant?  This would acknowledge our state of war which is just the same as when the JAPS attacked Pearl Harbor without a declaration of war and they never did, nor did they ever follow the rules of war. 

laydownSally is correct in that the JAPS, the Communist Chinese, the Communist North Koreans and the Communist Vietnamese did not care one wit that we did not torture their prisoners.

The Germans, on the other hand did follow LOAC and for the most part each Army followed ROEs that were similar.

Communism is evil

LaydownSally:

Do you honestly believe Al Queda will… renounce their practice of torture?

Of course not. Thats why we must defeat them, not emulate them. The Framers had it right. You have it wrong.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Chief...the legal status of the torturee has no bearing on my position but I’ll try to follow your language if it will help keep things clearer.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

laydownSally has this part correct too: 

But to abstain from some interrogation techniques, what some label as torture, by comparing the US to the demented Islamic fundamentalists is absurd. These are people who are wholly lacking in any respect for life, liberty and freedom.

This is not to say that we torture people like they do, nor did we as a command decision in WW II.  What has happened is that one technique, allegedly used by the CIA involving the simulation of drowning, which Nancy Pelosi and others apparently condoned with their comments ~ is that all we do, can we not do more ~ but that was before someone on the left decided to use this alleged method of interrogation as a political talking point.  By the way, this technique was probably classified.  You can thank our internal enemies for that leak also, along with the cell phone tracking of UBL.

Communism is evil

MikeA.  Not so fair this time.  If an illegal combatant, which some call spies are captured, they can be hung.  Remember Nathan Hale, “I only regret that I have but one life to give my country.” I attended a school in Connecticut by that name.
Was his hanging torture?

But still, let us take your idea.  A POW from some army or insurgency or pirates, or terrorist cell in the US even.  Should be specify that none are US citizens--or does that matter?

Communism is evil

Of course not. Thats why we must defeat them, not emulate them. The Framers had it right. You have it wrong.

How pleasantly curt of you.
You may want to re-read this:

If you object to torture for moral reasons I have no argument with you.

So you disagree with one of McCain’s reasons for his stance on torture?

I doubt you can, but provide an example of the “framers” view on torture. Please?

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

LdS:  For one who launched into a long lecture, based on your assumptions about what I believe or don’t believe, you seem remarkably touchy about my response.

My views on the intent of the Framers are clearly stated earlier in this post.

If Cruel and Unusual Punishment does not mean torture, then it means nothing.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Chief

Was his hanging torture?

Not in the way I understand torture. I don’t favour capital punishment but if the law calls for it then hanging seems a reasonable method.

Should be specify that none are US citizens--or does that matter?

Torture is always wrong IMO.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

In the case of Nathan Hale, he had no trial.

Your statement, torture is always wrong is a good place to debate in a perfect world.

Communism is evil

MikeA.  What do we do when we find out that our enemy or even some other country like the Communist ones I mention previously are torturing people?
Should we take the evidence to the UN and wait for 17 resolutions?
Take action with NATO or with some other countries?
Take no action because it is none of our business?
In our country, these issues have been and are being debated in the congress.
The people can vote for representatives and we can change or modify our official operating procedures.

Communism is evil

Pparets,

For one who launched into a long lecture, based on your assumptions about what I believe or don’t believe, you seem remarkably touchy about my response. /quote]

Heh heh! Did you wake up on the wrong side of your bed this AM.

Myself, I feel fine and am enjoying a for once civil argument with a liberal (Mike) and you…I thought. Maybe I shouldn’t disagree with you or maybe you’d prefer to discuss this issue with reality based boob. Shhesh!

You quote “Cruel and Unusual Punishment” as If the founders had terrorism in mind and ignore the complete ambiguity of that phrase. There are those, in case you missed it, that believe cable television instead of satellite is cruel and unusual.

I told you if you object to terrorism on moral grounds, I have no counter to that argument.
Give me a cattle prod and some hydrofluoric acid and I’ll do my part to keep the less inclined safe. If that doesn’t work I’ll show them some old re-runs of Don Johnson on the Dating Game or a nude pictures of Madonna singing “Give me that ole’ time religion…”

One of the big disadvantages we face is that unlike the terrorist, we will not fire indiscriminately into a crowd to rid ourselves of single menace. If you think the use of torture puts us on par with the them, then you should sell your Harley, buy a moped and go dancing in the park with Tiny Tim.

Don’t read to much into what I have to say. I will as you know, state my position directly. You and I are conservatives and as such have much in common, if you wish to remain divided because of my position on torture, so be it. But in the long run you’ll be safer with my policies than with that of some Nervous Nellie like Al Franken.

---

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Al Franken is cruel and unusual punishment.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Your tax dollars at work

Sorry for the inconvenience

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

C RZ...the UN is an idea although it needs serious reform before it could tackle the problem effectively. If the Iraqi mission has taught us anything it is the need for global cooperation when intervening in a sovereign nation’s affairs. The questions you raise are serious and if I had the answers then I wouldn’t be posting at SA...if you know what I mean.

In terms of your perfect world comment, one has to take a moral stand and stick with it whether circumstances are convenient or not. You have the right to your opinion but if your position becomes the standard then it’s a slippery slope to all manner of dubious positions and actions a la Lord of the Flies and Heart of Darkness IMO. Again, civilised societies don’t approve of torture because it’s simply not civilised behaviour. I’m not terribly comfortable with war but I recognise that people have the right to defend themselves and so I grit my teeth and bear it. Torture is another matter entirely because the detainee or POW or whatever is completely at the mercy of his captor and doesn’t pose an immanent threat.

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

Al Franken is cruel and unusual punishment.

Ah Ha! We agree.

If we could reach a compromise. We’ll send Al and the Boob to Tora Bora and I’ll vote for McCain and relinquish my one year subsciption to “101 Ways to Skin Liberals Without the Mess.”

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Mike,

C RZ...the UN is an idea although it needs serious reform before it could tackle the problem effectively

You realize the Chief was joking about this, Right?  The UN couldn’t and wouldn’t do anything to upset their upstanding members from Syria, Iran, UAE,…

Now if it were the US or Israel that would be a different story.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

MikeA.  Fair enough.  You are one straighforward man.  I appreciate that.  There are far too many people here and in the world who are literally incapable of an adult conversation.  Now, we may disagree with how we went about dealing with what President Clinton called for, regime change in Iraq.  The congress authorized ~any means necessary~ and the commander in chief did his duty.
We had over twenty nations helping in one way or another.  Some knuckled under when Al Qaeda bombed their subways and other parts of their countries and some did not.  We must stand up to these Muslims and terrorists.  But, let’s address the torture question.  Fair enough.  The detainee or POW is under the control of the army and does not pose an imminent threat.

We can proceed from there.
Our military, and John McCain exhibited what to do when captured:  give your name, rank, and serial number.  That is the Geneva Convention prisoner of war rules.  I agree.  Now we can get down to interrogation, day to day living and psychological questioning.  You mentioned two books.  I am familiar with The Lord of the Flies.  A group of children are stranded and they invent rules for themselves without adult supervision.  A fiction book.  Similar issues occur in the fiction book, Animal Farm. 
I agree in absolute moral authority. 
Are you familiar with the Communist North Korean tactics of brainwashing?
The fiction book/movie was called The Manchurian Candidate.
A non-fiction book that included torture I recommend is The Bridge at Andau.

So.  What type living conditions, square footage, temperature of rooms, light/darkness, access to books, writing material, bibles, prayer times, working conditions, rewards for good behavior.  These are just a sample of conditions that some have called torture.  Do you agree?

The crux of the present argument does lie with one technique simulating drowning that the CIA may have used.  Whether it is or is not torture is open to discussion.  No permanent damage to the individual is done.  No whippings, no branding irons, no stressing of joints, no keeping the person in unnatural positions for days.  Your opinion?

Communism is evil

laydownSally.  I don’t think there is any hope for the UN, the public schools in the US, or our courts unless we were to have forty years of conservative government to offset forty years of liberals in power from 1954-1994.  I don’t think I said that the UN could do anything about torture.  I think I said something about waiting for 17 resolutions.  That was a sort of sarcastic remark, but it was the number necessary before a 15-0 vote authorizing ~most serious consequences~ or something like that.  With the UN and liberals their words do not have common meanings or they do not act on them.

Communism is evil

I don’t think I said that the UN could do anything about torture.  I think I said something about waiting for 17 resolutions.

Yep. I knew there was some sarcasm in that remark and I thought(by Mikes comment) that he may not have understood that.

At any rate I’ll let you and Mike get back to your discussion...your both doing a great job and I’m enjoying it.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry