Say Anything Blog

Interesting comparison between the Japanese and the Islamic fascists, Chief.  It’s worth noting that the Japanese changed because we decimated them in war.  We attacked their country unrelentingly after they attacked us.  After we defeated them, soundly, they changed.

Sadly, our society no longer has the will for that sort of warfare.  President Bush would have gotten crucified by the international press after just one of the fire bombings that brought Japan to its knees.  They’d have murdered him after a nuke.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

May be true, Rob, but more JAPS were killed by firebombing than ‘nukes’ and more Germans were killed in Dresden by our and the brits bombing than the ‘nukes’ also.  I invite critical analysis.  I think it is time to define our enemy and make historical comparisons so certain people can more readily understand and identify what we are up against.

Communism is evil

Rob/Chief: Hell, our present MSM would have been screaming for us to bail out after even one successful WWII battle.  Of course, they would have lied about it being successful.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

but more JAPS were killed by firebombing than ‘nukes’ and more Germans were killed in Dresden by our and the brits bombing than the ‘nukes’ also.

Exactly my point.  We killed hundreds of thousands of people when we fire bombed Japan.  The firebombings killed more people than the Nukes did, but ultimately it defeated our enemy quickly and caused a sea change in their culture that has resulted in them becoming a staunch ally.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

OK.  I thought you meant that we only have the ‘nuclear option’.  If we had the cooperation of the press like FDR did, then there would not be as much of a problem.  I seriously wonder what else we must suffer before the American people realize that the Muslim fanatics wish to kill us (or convert us to Islam).

Communism is evil

Rob,

Often in warfare the side which is defeated is that which loses the WILL to continue the fight.

In the WWII example of Japan, we found out after the surrender that our campaign of interdiction and transportation disruption had been far more effective than we thought.  The Japanese Home Islands, unknown to us, were within a few months of exhausting their food supplies.  The Japanese did know that, and they knew how many they had been losing in the firebombing raids, yet they persisted.

The shock of the nuclear weapons, the un-stated threat that more would be forthcomming (a tactical deception which today’s MSM would no doubt leak) gave the Emperor a face saving reason to order surrender against the wishes of his government.

In the current case the enemy is not a nation state but an ideology; the adherents of which are out to destroy the very notion of the West by ANY means.  There is no emperor who can order them to surrender.

That makes this a war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

If we had the cooperation of the press like FDR did, then there would not be as much of a problem.

We haven’t had the cooperation of the press since Vietnam.  Which was also about the time the media got nationalized, coincidentally.  Seems like we haven’t won a decisive military operation since.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robert108--I don’t necessarily agree with you there.  As Anne Coulter documented, the liberals were against our going to war, until Germany attacked Russia (their uncle joe).

Communism is evil

The shock of the nuclear weapons, the un-stated threat that more would be forthcomming (a tactical deception which today’s MSM would no doubt leak) gave the Emperor a face saving reason to order surrender against the wishes of his government.

In the current case the enemy is not a nation state but an ideology; the adherents of which are out to destroy the very notion of the West by ANY means.  There is no emperor who can order them to surrender.

That makes this a war to the knife, and the knife to the hilt.

Good point, though I wasn’t trying to say that we should use the same tactics in the current conflict as we used against Japan.

I’m just talking about will.  This country used to have the will to do what was necessary to defeat our enemies.  I don’t think we do any more, and I guess I blame the media for that for accentuating everything negative about our military operations and none of the positives.

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rodney--Well put.  Of course, things are different than when the two Japanese diplomats showed up in top hats to deliver their declaration of war!  Our enemies have learned much since then and from Vietnam.  Islamist Facists are not directly threatening most Americans so they don’t take them seriously.

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Chief: I am aware of that fact of history, but still stand by my opinion as expressed in my last post.  After all they are squealing about less than three thousand killed in over three years; almost any major battle in WWII involved many more deaths than that.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108--I agree and am with you on the history and numbers of killed.  In our own Civil War, over one million were killed.  I wonder how they would have written about that war?!  My position, aligned with Anne and others is that liberals are socialists at best and communists in disguise.  They would be the elite, the “thinkers” of a future regime and therefore have much to gain by their continued lies about our present position.  They have nothing to loose except to take up a new career.

Communism is evil

King--captcha test?  I do agree with you on a statue of responsibility for the West Coast!

Communism is evil

King--captcha test?

Sorry Chief, we’re doing some blog maintenance.  Just testing out the commenting.

My father-in-law didn’t make the landing on Iwo; he had been too badly wounded on Saipan.  He almost never spoke of the war. BUT once he told how badly wounded Japanese would scream “banzai” through the night.  He thought they were keeping themselves awake and reminding each other not to surrender but to fight to the death.  We are now faced with an implacable enemy that welcomes death while trying to bring our society down.  Will we have the guts to stop them before they destroy us, and destroy them if we must?  I hope the flags of our fathers wave long after I am gone…

Chief:
“robert108--I don’t necessarily agree with you there.  As Anne Coulter documented, the liberals were against our going to war, until Germany attacked Russia (their uncle joe). “

You guys (and apparently Anne Coulter) all need a history lesson.  The ‘Liberals’ in 1940 were the Democrats led by Roosevelt.  They WANTED to get into WWII in the worst way (to fight Fascism).  The conservative Republicans of that day were Isolationist, and fought tooth and nail to stay out of the war.  Finally, Pearl Harbor made the whole thing moot.
If you don’t believe me, crack a book.

It’s worth noting that the Japanese changed because we decimated them in war.  We attacked their country unrelentingly after they attacked us.  After we defeated them, soundly, they changed.--Rob

Yeah, in response to them attacking a military target, hundreds of thousands of women and children were murdered by firebombs from the skies. Heroic. That set the precedent for the following wars too, attack military targets, your civilians get butchered. If civilian targets are valid military targets, why the outrage when terrorists attack American civilians?

Yes I do know why, some lives are more valuable than others, and of-course that isn’t racism/nationalism. But I still don’t want to subject anyone else to the same treatment.

AV:
Firebombing cities during WWII didn’t really affect the enemy’s morale or production much either, as the Strategic Bombing Survey discovered after the war.  There was plenty of controversy about the morality of it in Britain, but none here at the time.
In addition to thinking it would be effective, our rationale was ‘they did it first’ (the Germans in Coventry).
There’s no doubt in my mind that, had we lost the war we would’ve been prosecuted for war crimes.

Firebombing cities during WWII didn’t really affect the enemy’s morale

You’re kidding, right?

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

gregdn: As far as liberals supporting Stalin, I give you Walter Duranty.  You’re just wrong on this one.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

Rob:
The U.S. did a comprehensive study after the war of the effectiveness of our saturation bombing campaign.  A lot of interesting things came out of it.  For example, German aircraft production actually increased almost until the end of the war.
As for their morale, it wouldn’t much matter in a totalitarian setting would it?

Robert:  My comment was that the Liberals back then wanted to fight WWII and the conservatives didn’t.  I stand by that statement.

gregdn: You are right about the morale thing. Ever since WWI, ‘strategists’ have been arguing that all you have to do is drop some bombs on some civilians and they’ll capitulate. I have yet to see a case where that happened.

Maybe that when the enemy flies over your cities and drops bombs on your, you may realise they want to kill you, and maybe that will decrease your support for them?
(Maybe I just don’t get human nature.)

Also, Nazi Germany produced the most tanks in 1943, several years after the intense strategic bombing campaign started. (Because the finally moved to a war economy). The major economic problems were mineral resource shortages like oil and copper, among others.

Ah,

And here we have one of those occaisions where the stopped clock happens to be right.

AV “opines”:
Ever since WWI, ‘strategists’ have been arguing that all you have to do is drop some bombs on some civilians and they’ll capitulate. I have yet to see a case where that happened.

Actually, the premier advocate of Air Powr as the decisive factor in warfare was Giulio Douhet, whose treatise The Command of the Air was published in 1921.  While he had indeed been an active proponent of air power during the 1st World War, his prominence post dates the publication of The Command of the Air.

The events of the Second World War most certainly did NOT vindicate the views of Douhet and the other advocates of Air Power.

The Strategic Air Survey conducted with regard to the ETO did not bear this out.

The PTO and Atomic Surveys were more supportive of the role of Air Power, but revealed the late war tactical raids on transportation to be more effective than the strategic campaign, while the unrestricted submarine warfare and mining operations were the most damaging of all to the wartime economy of the Empire of Japan.

The effects of bombing, wether by fire or conventional HE, on morale have never been decisive in and of themselves.  The Atomic Bombing of Japan, as previously mentioned, was a special case.  The mass civilian suicides during the Okinawa campaign were indicative of the reception expected in the planning of Operation Downfall (the invasion of Japan, consisting of sub-operations Olympic and Coronet).

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Thanks robert108 and Rodney.  Someone else knows of the liar Walter Duranty.  Someone else has read a bit of military history.

gregdn-- I have, check my profile.  Here is a lighter read for you, but will be glad to associate your liberal and communists that did not want to enter WWII until Germany attacked Russia.  Yes, there were some who supported Britain, but they were also mostly conservatives who fought and support the USA with their lives-- our US military.

http://www.worldandi.com/public/1987/february/mt6.cfm

“One of the most perceptive and prophetic critics of America’s entry into World War II was the classical liberal writer John T. Flynn. In his As We Go Marching, written in the midst of the war he had tried so hard to forestall....”

Read more here; http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard84.html

I will be here from time to time to debate you.

Communism is evil

gregdn- I last referenced your liberal pacifists during WW II on 2Jan07.  No reply?  Shall I assume you concede the point then that liberals were opposed to the USA entering the war in Europe?

Communism is evil

Religious fanatics of “any” religion are dangerous, not just Islam…

Religious fanatics of “any” religion are dangerous, not just Islam…

Untrue.  Only the Islamic ones are beheading, strapping bombs on retarded women and on small children, are bombing cafes and shopping centers, as well as manufacturing and using IEDs.  They are also the only ones lauching rockets into civilian population centers.
You couldn’t be more wrong.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

I found a link from my counter today.  This post defines Islam and what it has done to damage and kill civilized people all over the world in the name of their religion.  They are indeed *mind bombs*

Communism is evil