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Friday, March 09, 2007

Hayek’s Socialist Inconsistencies AKA Sparkie Does Your Homework For You

What follows should be a very interesting read for all of you. I must thank the woman in my life who spent 3 to 4 hours with me last night, combing this over, suggesting corrections, and generally discussing the theory. Her input was priceless, just as she is.

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Hayek, throughout his work, stresses the importance of a liberal regime. The motivation for his libertarian position stems from what he views as the mistaken concept of most socialist and totalitarian regimes – the idea that one can centrally plan a society. Hayek begins his discussion of why this rational constructivist model of central planning is out of step with reality by pointing to the epistemic inaccessibility of the totality of knowledge (Tomlinson 18). Each individual has local and particular knowledge such that no one individual could have access to the whole of this knowledge. The totality of this information is dispersed, and therefore, the assumption that one could centrally plan an economy and/or society is naïve and fallacious. Society, as it is now, was formed not through human design, but by individuals pursuing a plurality of ends in ignorance of the activities of a vast majority of other individuals (Bellamy 18). He refers to this as a spontaneous order, with the most significant example of it being the economic market. The individuals acting within a spontaneous order, or cosmos, are able to interact with each other in a beneficial yet unplanned way, by using their particular knowledge and mutually adjusting their actions as a result of trial and error, negative feedback, and signals provided by the price mechanism (Hayek, “Law” vol. 2 33). In this way the market is able to intricately connect the dispersed knowledge and make use of it. In such a spontaneous order as the economic market, people’s actions are constrained by rules of just conduct – certain social norms that are end independent and which are observed yet unconsciously known to each individual. Hayek contrasts the spontaneous order of the Great Society, modern complex society, with the rational constructivist model of the state or organization. In the constructed order, or taxis, all law, or legislation as Hayek terms it, is the product of some will and is geared toward a particular end. Such a constructed order as the government is necessary, in Hayek’s opinion, since in one respect legislation aimed at particular ends is well suited for providing collective public goods (Bellamy 22). Furthermore, it exists to uphold the rule of law by enforcing the rules of just conduct necessary for a spontaneous order. The most central rules of just conduct needed to maintain a spontaneous order are stability of property, its transference by consent (contract), and the fulfillment of promises (tort) (Gamble 48).

The imperfection of knowledge is central to Hayek’s understanding of how the spontaneous order of the market economy is to be approached. Hayek strays away from even using the term ‘economy’ - he believes that the term has been tainted by constructivist thinkers who believe that they can alter at will what for him is not the product of human design (“Law” vol. 2 99). Instead, Hayek refers to the market economies as a catallaxy. In the catallaxy, different particular and dispersed knowledge is reconciled and organized, even though no particular outcome is intended (Bellamy 19). Each person works within their chosen niche, unknowing how they fit into the whole picture, and is induced to provide for the needs of others without even knowing what those particular needs are. Price mechanisms signal to the individuals whether or not their efforts are properly directed, with correct decisions yielding in high returns. When expectations are disappointed this provides a negative feedback to the individual who, in turn, adapts their efforts respectively. In the catallaxy, there would be no human agency responsible for the differing fates of the individuals, since each person’s position would be the result of impersonal market forces (Lukes 119). With no agent responsible for the relative wealth and incomes of the individuals in a catallaxy, Hayek argues that the term social justice is meaningless in a spontaneous order, and only gains meaning in a command society where there is intended human action. Any attempt by the government to equally redistribute wealth according to a notion of merit is for Hayek socialist in nature, and goes against an individual’s freedom and entitlement to property (Tomlinson 21). Hayek does allow for a bare minimum income which the government can provide to individuals outside of the market mechanism (I think this is foolish because there is no such thing as “outside the market” under a view like Hayek’s. That, however, would take up another post so I will not pick on it too much here.). This idea of welfare is specifically inconsistent with Hayek’s views, I will argue, and allowing such minimum income assurance to occur would not only entail a property right violation that cannot be justified, but would also be pursuing end-dependent aims in repositioning individuals within the catallaxy. Furthermore, any government distributed income disrupts the necessary negative feedback, preventing individuals from using their own knowledge for their individual ends – a concept central to Hayek’s argument.



Hayek links the subversion of law in the western capitalist states, since the 19th century, to the pursuit of social justice (Bellamy 20). Justice, for Hayek, is simply a general applicable rule and is geared toward focusing on the procedure of social interactions and not their results. Social justice, in contrast, aims at achieving a certain end state of equal distribution. Hayek finds this notion to be outrageous since it implies an impossibility. Social justice is meaningless in a spontaneous order since the outcomes and relative positions of each individual are the unintended and unforeseeable product of millions of human actions in the market order (Fleetwood 152). Advocates of social justice want to attach the incompatible notions of reward and merit to the distribution of material assets, and Hayek views this as a mistake (“Constitution” 95). In a free society, no human agency is responsible for the distribution of wealth in the market, and so individuals have no one to lodge a complaint against (Lukes 120). Only consequences of intended actions can be the subject of just or unjust discussion, and therefore this excludes results of the market. Any attempt to link reward to merit in a spontaneous order is fruitless, since the uncertainty of the outcome is so great and our individual estimates of the chances of various efforts differ (Hayek “Constitution” 96). As Hayek points out, we do not want people to maximize their merit, but their usefulness to others. Any attempt to link merit with reward would be committing the same mistake as someone who believes in a centrally planned economy – nobody’s knowledge is sufficient to guide all human action and similarly no one has access to the totality of knowledge such that they could reward all efforts according to merit, need, value or desert (Lukes 121). Furthermore, notions of desert, merit, and value are subjective and any ranking of them by the government would be arbitrary. Social justice would eventually lead one to socialism since it would require the government to produce a particular pattern of distribution, which would limit one’s ability to use their knowledge for their individual ends. He sees it as the first step towards the government regulating relative incomes of the great majority. Even though Hayek rejects social justice, he does allow governments to provide a guarantee against severe deprivation in the form an assured minimum income which would occur outside the market (124) (Again with the “outside the market” business. Geez.).



Hayek believes that private property and unregulated markets are the most efficient and beneficial ways for society to function in the long run (Kelly 72). He finds that private property is indispensable to the utilization of fragmented knowledge and is needed in order for exchange to take place (Kley 52). Hayek wants states to provide accessibility to knowledge even if this overrides property rights since he finds human flourishing of knowledge to be the most central process of society (85). For example, mandated sharing of one’s artwork or historical documents for show in a museum, and publicly funded theaters would be allowed. Providing welfare by means of proportional taxation not only violates property rights, but does so in a way that can not be justified by referring to an overriding concern to promote knowledge. Hayek is proposing an entity outside the market to raise tax revenues, but the particular aim for the distribution of a minimum income is the repositioning of individuals within the catallaxy. Even by providing minimum income assurance outside the market, which in my view is impossible to have this happen “outside” the market, it can be seen as detrimental to the catallaxy Hayek proposes. It would entail raising revenue from the individuals within the Great Society, and redistributing it to individuals who were unable to use their particular knowledge in a way that was beneficial to them. This would mean that those whom the taxes were taken from would lose their claim to such private property, the taxes collected, for no other reason then to prop up the position of the poorest in society. No overriding need could be used to justify such a violation, since this case cannot be rationalized with allowing knowledge to flourish. Taxes raised for welfare are different than taxes raised for collective goods such as defense. Revenues for collective goods can be justified since they are universally used and provide the background condition in which a market order can operate and dispersed knowledge can come together. Government dispersed income to the poor cannot be justified as a collective good and deprives individuals of their private property for use in particular ends; raising the income of certain individuals. In a spontaneous order the position of each individual is the result of the actions of many other individuals, and nobody has the responsibility to make sure that these actions result in a certain position for someone (Hayek “Law” vol. 2 33). It seems contradictory to allow the state to redefine such positions, which were the result and responsibility of no one. Even if such redistribution of private property is not linked to concepts of merit, an idea Hayek has a problem with, or aiming at absolute equal incomes for all, it still is interfering with the property rights of all and benefiting only some with no valid justification.

Providing individuals with a safety net severs the connection between reward and responsibility, and places the individual in a contrived position which impersonal market forces did not place them in. The altered position of such an individual receiving income from the government is also not the accident of the environment, such as wealth someone is born into or a natural ability one has, and is therefore aimed at a particular result which is different from that which would have occurred if it had been allowed unaided to follow its inherent principle – something which Hayek himself rejects in a spontaneous order (“Law” vol. 2 128). Even though the income is distributed by an entity outside the market, it is nevertheless aiming at a particular result within the market. It requires a discrimination and unequal treatment of people which is irreconcilable in a free society (Hayek “Constitution” 259). The pattern of property holdings within the market, will in turn become the product of the government’s will in the instances in which the government gives revenue to certain individuals. The end-dependent nature of aiming at such a contrived particular result, namely giving particular people particular income such that they are above a minimum threshold, can be seen as intervention and as contributing in disrupting the overall order.



Within the catallaxy, dispersed knowledge is brought together by coordinating the activities of the different agents, none of whom knows in detail every aspect of the whole they are part of (Kuthakas 66). To be specific, the fragmented knowledge in reference to the market order, refers to knowledge of preferences and production factors (Kley 49). Nobody knows the totality of the things that are wanted in the market, the best way to produce it, or how urgently they are wanted. Even if someone did have access to all this information, which is epistemically impossible, one would still need local knowledge, and furthermore, the information is constantly changing. The market price system allows individuals to know what preferences people have at any moment by reflecting them in the relative prices (53). The price system mirrors the changes in preferences that occur in the market, and serves as a basis for individuals to make their decisions. Decisions are correct if the forms of investment and job chosen yield high returns (Miller 64). As Hayek points out we can only make effective use of dispersed knowledge and the price mechanism by allowing the principle of negative feedback to operate; some individuals must suffer (“Law” vol. 2 71). When expectations are disappointed and result in unemployment, diminishing income, or loss of property, it is important to pay attention to this, Hayek says, since prices and disappointed expectations spread knowledge of opportunity (116). The negative feedback signals to the individual that their efforts must be redirected in order to be beneficial in the market and attract income. Without this feedback and the price mechanism, individuals cannot efficiently use their particular knowledge for beneficial ends.



Providing a safety net for individuals who fall below a minimum income threshold would lead to disrupting the negative feedback signals that are essential to proper use of dispersed knowledge. The individual who received such income would be unable to accurately read whatever feedback they have received from the market since their material status would not be the result of market forces. An essential characteristic of the market for Hayek is that it is a discovery process whereby people discover the subjective values of goods and services which are widely dispersed through a process of trial and error as well as adaptation (Gamble 69). With division of labor each individual does not know in totality all the uses for a product or the subjective preferences of use (Kley 53). Competition and thwarted efforts allow individuals to discover the relevant economic facts which are transitory in nature. Interfering in the signals of the market would be disastrous to any true and untainted discovery process, whereby the signals, especially those of negative feedback, would be blurred by the government redefining the poorest individual’s relative material success.



In order for Hayek to remain consistent and not unjustifiably thwart personal property rights, aim at particular end results in the spontaneous order, disrupt negative feedback signals as well as prevent individuals from properly using their individual knowledge, he must leave welfare up to the catallaxy. By leaving it up to the catallaxy, possibly voluntary associations will spontaneously emerge that will provide goods and services to the poorest individuals in the Great Society. While some may object that such voluntary associations would never emerge, seeing that all rational actors in the market order are self-interested, this objection is clearly wrong. One can observe a range of such philanthropic associations in this day and age, which is remarkable seeing that a system of welfare is provided for apart from this by the government. Individuals, for whatever reason, still find themselves wanting to provide services to the poor, even though many are also simultaneously being helped by the government. While this is not to suggest that such government help is exhaustive and independent assistance is not needed, it does go to show that it is probable in a market where no such government aid is available more non-governmental aid will occur.

Works Cited (All from Sparkie's personal library.)

Bellamy, Richard. Liberalism and Pluralism: Towards a Politics of Comprimise. London: Routledge, 1999.

Fleetwood, Steve. Hayek’s Political Economy: The Socio-economics of Order. London: Routledge, 1995.

Gamble, A. Hayek on Liberty. London: Routledge, 1998.

Hayek, Friedrich. Law Legislation and Liberty: The Mirage of Social Justice. Vol. 2. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1976.

---. The Constitution of Liberty. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1960.

Kelly, Paul. Liberalism. Malden: Polity Press, 2005.

Kley, R. Hayek’s Social and Political Thought. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1989.

Lukes, Steven. Liberals and Cannibals. New York: Verso, 2003.

Miller, D. Market, State and the Community: Theoretical Foundations of Market Socialism. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1989.

Tomlinson, Jim. Modern Thinkers on Welfare edited by Vic George. Chapter One. “Hayek”. London: Prentice Hall, 1995.

Comments

This is very disappointing! I ain’t seeing no hot, 1/2 Lebanese babe pictures here.

And the bedrock supposition of a “liberal regime” had an entirely different meaning in the context of the era in which Hayek wrote his treatise than as the term “liberal” is applied today.

Bet that shocked the hell outa ya! And no sweat on the word addition, the modern english language is an ever changing mosaic of unintelligible gibberish, and I am just doing my part. Oh, and I know Willie Jeff ain’t your Messiah. Your more of a Hunter S. kinda guy.

I have always been baffled by the mass embrace of Keynes over Hayek. People are strange.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 9, 2007 at 06:14 pm

...the spontaneous order of the market economy…

It’s all right there, if only you could grasp it, Sparkie.  I even italicized the key word for you.
Still waiting for your definition of “free marketism”, but don’t think you will be able to come up with anything that makes sense.  You use so many words to say nothing…


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 10, 2007 at 12:31 am

Thanks for the interesting read, Sparkie.  Certainly Hayak gets it right with argument that socialism assumes complete knowledge is part of the problem with socialism.

I would suggest another, possibly more important, is the effect of distributed decision making versus centralized control.  This goes under the rubric “collective wisdom”.  See for example The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few ...

Even if you had complete knowledge, no one person is going to be as good at decision making than a group of people.  By dividing our economic decisions up in terms of those that meet our best interests, the individual will likely be much more informed about his own abilities, circumstances, etc as any central committee, Hayak’s point.  But if we accept that a society is a kind of a biological computer (and this there is hard evidence for), then even assuming complete knowledge, no one person is going to be smarter than the many.

While I appreciate the epistemological aspects of the treatise, I feel this is at most an incomplete theory without a predictive model, and at worse, not a theory at all.  I use “theory” in the context of a model that contains falsifiable hypotheses.

Really, this blemish is common in almost all social theory, which ultimately makes it not science at all, just philosophical musings.

Carrick on March 10, 2007 at 05:38 am

The most central rules of just conduct needed to maintain a spontaneous order are stability of property --Sparkie paraphrasing Hayek

1/ I disagree that private ownership of property (beyond what one, or a collective, can assert his (their) claim to, without needing a central government) is needed for a (moderately) stable spontaneous order. I doubt that Hayek could prove the above statement (depending on what you/he mean(s) by `stability of property’, but I can cite a case where formal ownership laws were absent, but there was still a degree of order. This would be the syndicalist regions around Barcelona in the 1930’s[insert citation].  smile

2/ Large organizations tend to degenerate towards the command-economy case, as they grow, at the expense of efficiency. Admittedly, this can be due to government laws/regulations protecting them from the market. (I’m thinking of the music recording industry, and many others, hiding from competition by abusing copyright, and patent, laws. The music recording industry has stagnated to become an oligopoly, for example.)

But long-term monopolies can arise simply because the cost of entry into a market is so great that there would have undesirable (if ever) pay-back periods. Telecommunications industries being an example where government regulations can (and has) actually stimulate(d) competition. As telecommunications became more important, the company that had the lines and infrastructure already could upgrade them for far less than it would cost for a newcomer to enter the market. A newcomer would need permission, or the land needed, for every yard of cable laid down. The existing player already has this.

3/ How will the environment be protected with the formal private property based market fundamentalism described above? Without formal private property rights this is easy. Ones private property is close at hand, and they are clearly responsible for any damage they cause, so one will not want to pollute their surroundings without a good reason.

In the private property case, those who get a say on the practices that effect the environment can more easily shift the responsibilities and consequences onto others. They could also be geographically separated from the site of the pollution too, so may have little incentive to protect a distant locale.

The owners can claim that they aren’t responsible for a mess since they weren’t there, or it wasn’t them, it was the workers fault. But the workers can claim that they were merely following orders, so they feel lessened responsibility too.

4/ Deregulated financial institutions are notoriously unstable. A bank, for example, needs to lend out deposited money so that it can make a profit by paying less interest on deposits than it receives from loans it issues. For a bank to make maximum profit, all deposited money needs to be lent out. But if just one customer then asks the bank for ones deposit back, the bank is in strife.

As a highly contrived and simplistic example, say Bill deposits $250,000 in a bank hoping to collect 5% interest. Jill then gets a loan from the bank, paying 10% interest, to buy a Ferrari. The bank indirectly `marries’ a depositor to a creditor and seeks to make 5% of $250,000 in the process. Bill then sees Jill’s Ferrari and decides he wants one too. He asks the bank for his deposit back. The bank hasn’t his money so it has to: borrow some money itself; sell the loan to another bank; or ask Jill for the $250,000 back. This will result in the bank not making as much money as it expected (probably losing some as it will probably have to sell the loan for less than $250k, and then borrow the difference).

To prevent the above happening, banks have a minimum reserve (which is currently set by the government), so maybe only 90% of deposits are lent out again. This gives some protection from bankruptcy. Deregulated financial markets tend to push this reserve to far less than 10%. If a financial crisis occurs and the bank cannot pay back depositors, therefore the banks becoming bankrupt, the owners of the bank are out-of-pocket very little money. Limited liability saves their asses.

Hayek’s BS is theoretical, but the bankruptcy scenario actually happens in real-life, and happens surprisingly regularly. The main reason that large Western banks only rarely fall over is due to government regulation, and occasionally bailouts.

Argentina’s financial crisis, one of the freest economies in the world, wiped out much of the middle class. The same happened in Chile in the early 80’s (Friedman used this country as a shining example of his BS, but didn’t accept blame for the crisis) until Pinochet resorted back to Keynesian economics. Then there was the Asian Financial Crisis. These crises can be triggered by both human causes, like changes of government, or Argentina defaulting on IMF/World Bank debts, or a single large bankruptcy, triggering capital flight, or by natural disasters causing crops to fail etc.

Formal private property laws exacerbate this problem since they allow the accumulation of vast concentrations of capital. Small capital transfers can only trigger local crises, but large scale capital flight in deregulated financial markets can gut whole countries, or can even trigger global downturns. Argentina about 100 years ago, per capita, used to be the wealthier than much of Europe, but look at it today. Large scale economic crises occur, according to the locals, about every 10 years making it very hard to sustain longterm growth. This is apparently why Argentina has poorly developed heavy industries. Heavy industry takes large amounts of capital and has significant payback periods, but an unstable economy discourages investment.

How can Hayek’s economy avoid economic crises when it allows the accumulation of large quantities of capital, and is free from government regulation/protection? Natural disasters are out of our control and will always happen, so even if human factors can be factored out (naive to even think it), allowing large amounts of freely flowing capital, and directed by just a few, always allows the possibility of capital flight.

The anarchist/syndicalist model prevents capital flight, as capital would have to be literally moved from A to B, along with anyone who wished to keep their claim to it.

5/ Large concentrations of capital can be (are) non-democratic sources of strategic power. If a series of mergers resulted in MegaCorp(TM), the one organization that owns them all, this is then the absolute source of all power. The group of owners would be the rulers in an oligarchy. While such a scenario is improbable, there is no solution to it with Hayek’s model since private property laws MUST be respected (whereas we currently have anti-trust laws preventing this).

On a smaller scale, groups with a political agenda could assert their property rights to achieve political goals. An example is the Catholic Church buying up hospitals so that they can prevent abortions (though being a vegetarian and opposed to the killing of animals, I don’t agree with abortion) from happening in their premises.

Employees have less bargaining power when bargaining with huge organizations. This really makes the `trickle down effect’ literally a trickle. Nearly all productivity gains go the capital owners.

Squatters are ejected from derelict buildings though no one else is currently making use of them. This is inefficient and unnecessary, though it fits with the fundamentalist’s view that private property laws MUST be respected.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 10, 2007 at 06:30 am

AV:
‘Anarchist Vegan’ is just a name right? You’re really a civil communitarian who eats meat? Anarchist?

I can cite a case where formal ownership laws were absent, but there was still a degree of order. This would be the syndicalist regions around Barcelona in the 1930’s[insert citation].

‘Insert citation’ is not fair. I know what you refer to though and those people actually had their own currency during that period. I don’t believe they all owned all the currency and I’m pretty sure they didn’t have property redistribution policies. It was essentially a farmers collective no? They also immediately faced a inside job and were supplanted by the commies no? It is often lauded by anarchists despite the fact it wasn’t anarchy and it wasn’t stable at all. It was a temporary situation in a multi-pronged conflict. At any rate, this is theory. We all know it. It cannot be attacked as not really working because it has not been given a bona fide test run.

Large organizations tend to degenerate towards the command-economy case, as they grow, at the expense of efficiency. Admittedly, this can be due to government laws/regulations protecting them from the market. (I’m thinking of the music recording industry, and many others, hiding from competition by abusing copyright, and patent, laws.

Hayek is against monopolies. I don’t know if I included that here and I don’t know if he specifies an enforcement standard, but I do know he’s not in favor of them. I personally think that he’s not too concerned about them. If they do arise and become preponderant, it opens up an area where other actors can use their knowledge to make a competitive product and yield a high return, assuming the large company has become lazy and is charging too much for reasons that are not appropriately market-influenced. I buy 7” 45rpm records from a small, less than 10 employee record label in Montreal regularly. They are affordable, they each come with a hand screened and numbered cover, and I enjoy them and will buy more in the future. The claim that large companies limit diversity is also foolish. If Sony or whoever ends up monopolizing music, they are going to encompass all the diversity that’s present in the music world already. Then, to be competitive, we will see other, creative means to differentiate from Sony. This ultimately leads to more diversity, more knowledge, more available products, and more choice for the buyer. Ultimately I don’t think Hayek is concerned because as soon as the company becomes lazy or begins to gouge, opportunities abound.

Without formal private property rights this is easy. Ones private property is close at hand, and they are clearly responsible for any damage they cause, so one will not want to pollute their surroundings without a good reason.

Obviously this is nonsense sense the communal property you suggest would be close at hand, but it would no longer be private property. Have you heard of the tragedy of the commons? Back in old-time New England, each town had a central green or common. People were allowed to graze their sheep there and the commons became horribly over-grazed because people prefer to degrade communal property as opposed to their own. Stronger private property rights are not only consistent with a wider variety of things being owned and made, they are also consistent with greater knowledge that results from that setup, and greater care is taken of everything because people care for their private things much better than they care for common things.
As far as the environment goes. When it is degraded to the point where the market doesn’t function or is seen as not functioning well in the near future, it would be the governments job, loosely, to preserve the fundamental conditions necessary for the market to exist. Where this intersects with limiting companies on an environmental rationalization I don’t know. I do know that Hayek feels that, if a certain group wants some type of protection, a majority within the group and a majority outside the group must support the protection. This is to protect against obvious and excessive abuse and protecting the environment would probably be addressed in that manner. Again, its unclear though because the knowledge is dispersed. This is why we would need a strong majority to install any type of environmental protection that limits business. Personally I think the environmentalists are committing the fallacy of wanting a plastic earth and society to be static, something it never will be. Preventing species from going extinct can also be framed as limiting the efficiency of nature. A quick adjustment of hayek’s ideas could do that. The idea that humans are separate from nature and are somehow destroying it is silly. We are nature. Its is not being destroyed it is changing like it always has. Will it become less hospitable if we fuck up the environment? Obviously. Does the earth care? Obviously not. Its a large ball of dirt covered with fancy tubefeeders.

Hayek’s BS is theoretical, but the bankruptcy scenario actually happens in real-life, and happens surprisingly regularly.

Hayek is not going to be too bothered by problems with bankruptcy. Its negative feedback. Its necessary in fact. People get stupid if things are in place to prevent that and coddle them in an inefficient of outmoded enterprise.

Also, for the record, I think Hayek does need some rules as far as just transfer is concerned. I spent time studying consent and coercion. Hayek, I don’t think, believes in coercion. I think that’s a little naive personally, but I don’t feel that an extremely technical or comprehensive plan is needed. The banks that go ary would obviously be held liable.

Squatters are ejected from derelict buildings though no one else is currently making use of them.

Gutter punk squatters for life! Face tattoos and little black flags with the circle and the zig arrow!
Whatever. Trespassing is illegal. That’s not Hayek’s problem. Go to Germany and see all the beautiful mansions that the Jews were ejected from during world war two that were totally trashed by all the squatters who lived in them afterwards. The tradgedy of the commons makes itself blatantly apparent when a bunch of homeless punks get together and trash a mansion or a building. Its not even communal. Its someone else’s. Furthermore, these punks are ignoring the knowledge out there, ignoring the negative feedback, and essentially parasiting off the system. You’re right. That’s not efficient at all.

What is kinda neat is that Hayek’s free market-ism is opposed to nationalism, border-security, the traditional conception of a polity, et cetera. For someone to advocate free market ideals and holler for closed borders is inconsistent. Just as its inconsistent to advocate open borders and a minimum wage. Closed borders and minimum wage make the markets ‘dumber’ and make the rationalizations for regulating them further have more traction as inefficiencies arise. When there is lots of inefficiency, its not hard to foist over laws that entail more inefficiency. People have come to accept it.

I have always been baffled by the mass embrace of Keynes over Hayek.

I like Hayek. I think he arms the libertarians to the teeth. It might be theory, but its great ammo for debates. It really exposes the epistemic fallacies of many leftists.

It’s all right there, if only you could grasp it, Sparkie.

I wrote the paper jerk. The only problem is if one divorces free trade from epistemology and political theory, there is no reason to have it. It is an economic idea, no doubt, but it collapses into political theory, which collapses into epistemology which collapses into moral philosophy. If it ain’t good why do it R108?

Really, this blemish is common in almost all social theory, which ultimately makes it not science at all, just philosophical musings.

I would have to disagree because lots of social theorists nowadays are using SPSS and MiniTab heavily. This brings a pointedly scientific (statistical, mathematical) aspect to the table. Obviously Hayek wasn’t, but I consider him to be mainly a political theorist anyway. I think most people say he’s an economist right?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 08:00 am

spark! You said you were not coming back till Monday, ya fibber! Now, where are those hot, 1/2 Lebanese babe pics?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 08:26 am

Salma ‘Donkey’ Hayek, Lebanese donkey-cousin of Selma and Mexican-Czech-Austrian descendant of Friederich.
2005882876218469687_rs.jpg


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 08:40 am

the girl is under the weather. we called it off. pleased to be here all weekend folks!


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 08:40 am

Now that is just uncalled for. I always liked her as Muse in Dogma. Now THAT is a candy girl.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 09:27 am

I wrote the paper jerk.It didn’t take much to make your head explode. The only problem is if one divorces free trade from epistemology and political theory, there is no reason to have it. Like I said, the key word here is “spontaneous”.  You still don’t get it.  The free market is what people do when they aren’t coerced by outside force.  The two other things you name are intellectual artifacts, while the free market is a natural occurrence.  You have it backwards.  If you are free enough, there is no reason to regard either “epistemology” or “political theory”. It is an economic idea,It is reality, not an idea. It requires no central authority, nor does it require a group of pointy-headed intellectuals to ‘splain it to everyone; people just do what they choose to do. no doubt, but it collapses into political theory, which collapses into epistemology which collapses into moral philosophy. If it ain’t good why do it R108? You confuse cause with effect, as usual, Sparkie.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 10, 2007 at 10:22 am

r108.
we still need a gov’t. if you still want to be a nationalist, we still need a gov’t and somehow the things they are doing need to be “splained” dont they?  unfortunately this is not a fully anarchic situation buddy. any market needs some basic laws and enforcement.

The most central rules of just conduct needed to maintain a spontaneous order are stability of property, its transference by consent (contract), and the fulfillment of promises (tort) (Gamble 48).

that is from the first paragraph.

Nozick:

Some anarchists have claimed not merely that we would be better off without a state, but that any state necessarily violates people’s moral rights and hence is intrinsically immoral. ...[A good] starting point then, though nonpolitical, is by intention far from nonmoral. Moral philosophy sets the background for, and the boundaries of, political philosophy. What persons may and may not do to one another limits what they do through the apparatus of the state, or do to establish such an apparatus. The moral prohibitions it is permissible to enforce are the source of whatever legitimacy the state’s fundamental coercive power has. (Fundamental coercive power is power not resting on the consent of the person to whom it is applied.) This provides a primary arena of state activity, perhaps the only legitimate arena.

-taken from Anarchy, State, and Utopia by R. Nozick. 1974.

rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 11:36 am

r108.
we still need a gov’t. I have never said anything different. if you still want to be a nationalist,You have this need to pigeonhole; maybe it helps you form your thoughts, but it’s unnecessary for real understanding. we still need a gov’t and somehow the things they are doing need to be “splained” dont they? Politics is the “effect”, and human behavior is the “cause”.  Get it? unfortunately this is not a fully anarchic situation buddy. You have me confused with AV, obviously.  I think anarchy is a crock, like Marxism. any market needs some basic laws and enforcement. Exactly what I have always said.  The real question is: Who decides?  If it’s a totalitarian central govt, I’m against it; if it’s the individual, either directly or through elected representatives, I’m for it.  Clear now?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 10, 2007 at 11:55 am

Yea, spark, I believe you got them mixed up there. r108 is about as far from an anarchist as you can get, I come quite a bit closer. Take a #8 meat cleaver to all government at every level. Then set the rest on fire.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 12:39 pm

Two: Actually, as a true conservative who believes in strictly limited govt(by the populace), I am closer to the anarchy end of the spectrum, as opposed to the monarchy end.  I do regard both anarchy and Marxism as fantastical utopian concepts, suitable only for stoned discussions by college freshmen and sophomores in the middle of the night.  Neither one has any basis in practicality.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 10, 2007 at 12:47 pm

I don’t buy the “spectrum” analogy concerning politics. There just ain’t no graduating scale upon which I slide towards socialism/communism or monarchism/elitism. I just don’t see it. This ideology is a major part of humanity’s problem. Far too many people are just floating, waiting for the wind and currents to wash them up somewhere. And there are far too many people with egos 5x too large for a small Diety who believe it is their God given right to tell everyone in the world what and how and when and where they can do whatever they(the massive ego pricks) permit them to do.

Humanity is careening towards a blood letting that will make WWI-II, all pandemics of recorded history, and the extinction of the dinosaurs look like a Sunday school social. And the hand pushing us over that edge? This philosophy of “being open to suggestions”. Give this a bit-o consideration. Look at the world around us. Look at who, exactly, is pushing the concept of all cultures being exactly equal, morally and philosophically and legally.

Then ask yourself, why does this group of self-proclaimed pacifists work so hard to unleash an intertwined Islam/Socialism upon the human race?

And spark, as far as I can tell you ain’t part of that crowd. You fall into my category, Rational Anarchist.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 02:00 pm

And spark, as far as I can tell you ain’t part of that crowd. You fall into my category, Rational Anarchist.

Well, I grew up in the woods in a place where it gets very dark at night and very cold in the winter. I know how to do stuff. I know how to throw firewood and build barns. I know how to interact with my neighbors in a manner that is mutually beneficial without being spanked and prodded into ‘being nice’. If I could have my way, I would let the country dissolve into 7-15 smaller, more autonomous states. The only ‘central Fed’ I see a need for is basically a managerial type small group that coordinates the financial interactions among the states based on a very vague set of rules all these smaller states agree on. When you pass your neighbor on the road and its cold and dark and he’s broken down… you should help him. If you don’t you’re gonna have to see him at the store and also someday it might be you broken down on the side of the road. I guess I’m a simpleton. When the government taxes me and everyone else all at once, makes an obscene amount of money on the interest, rolls around and essentially masturbates with all our money while empowering itself before it maybe throws back a little bit of something here and there and probably not. When people become disabled because they are fucking fat and I pay for it then that is foolish, to put it lightly. I spend lots of time in Canada. The people there are kinda like Americans, but they have an odd kind of zombie-sheep quality. They don’t challenge authority. You tell them to pay 15% tax on everything and ask them to pay 150% as much as we do for automobiles and they do. Whoever foisted that over on them is a tricky bastard. I do like poutine though.


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 04:19 pm

It was the Crown of England, and to a certain degree the Bourbons of France, that instilled that zombie like quality. Funny, it had the exact opposite effect in Australia.

And yes! That is a passable definition of Rational Anarchist. Tried to explain this to AV:TFR a couple of times. It don’t have the mental capacity to grasp such a basic concept.

Far too many humans have no desire to think for themselves. This is the major problem within the basic framework of human society, and when you try to explain this very simple point to people they get pissed off.

Look at this kerfuffle over the Transient Barracks/Outpatient Care Facility at Walter Reed. Anyone with the ability to read, access newspaper archives, and think would understand this shit has been going on since the 1940s. But people don’t think. They can not retain within their minds a coherent, linear set of facts.

This applies to pretty much everything in human culture. People are stupid. You hand them a goose crapping golden eggs and their first thought is “fuck, now I got to feed this damn thing”, their second thought is “MMMMM, supper!”, then the next day they are bitching because they ain’t got no gold eggs and are looking for A. someone to blame, and B. more free shit.

And as far as several autonomous states, that is EXACTLY what our founding established. We have come a long way, baby!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 05:58 pm

Oh, and as to poutine, got that beat all to hell. Go to a Waffle House, order chees&ham omlet,grits and an order of hashbrowns,scattered,smoothered,covered, and chunked!! And I hope you ain’t worried about your cholesterol!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 06:05 pm

On Sunday, instead of church:
2004233313093042441_rs.jpg


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 10, 2007 at 07:46 pm

AV:‘Anarchist Vegan’ is just a name right? You’re really a civil communitarian who eats meat? Anarchist? --Sparkie Arbuckle

It should be Anarcho-Syndicalist Vegetarian, and is a short summary of my political/philosophical views. I haven’t eaten meat for nearly 10 years, I am fitter and healthier, and I don’t miss it one bit. I don’t even see meat as food, just stinky corpse. I don’t like corpses which is one reason why I don’t kill stuff.

This `tragedy of the commons’ is exactly what syndicalism seeks to avoid. A more recent example than Spain would be the collectives that arose after Argentina’s last economic crisis. Many workers simply refused to become unemployed and took over abandoned businesses and re-started them, including many factories and hotels (over 180 businesses). To manage the newly acquired businesses, they formed collectives and all management positions were selected by bottom up voting, elections happen regularly, and all workers vote on important issues.

This economic model is still subject to Hayek’s positive and negative feedback, and they are definitely competitive with contemporary top-down businesses. But there is no tragedy of the commons either. The syndicalist model seems to be a viable alternative to today’s currently accepted models, and there is an increase in self-determination of the participants also.

I wouldn’t call these sites unbiased, but definitely less so than Fox News. These are interesting.
http://campusprogress.org/features/556/diy-argentina
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9995


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 10, 2007 at 07:59 pm

Yea, spark, I believe you got them mixed up there. r108 is about as far from an anarchist as you can get, I come quite a bit closer. Take a #8 meat cleaver to all government at every level. Then set the rest on fire. --2Hotel9

A little violent, but a good idea.  smile

Maybe you’d like the 30 second song by NOFX, Murder the Government.

Tried to explain this to AV:TFR a couple of times. It don’t have the mental capacity to grasp such a basic concept. --2Hotel9

Explain what?


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 10, 2007 at 08:04 pm

IHOP is OK. I really dig their seafood omlet. Too many syrup choices, though.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 10, 2007 at 08:04 pm

Sparkie, my comment was not about a lack of mathematical rigor per se, which SPSS usage might address, but the lack of predictive modeling in much of social science.

To explain this a bit more clearly, a predictive model is based on premises (or principles) which themselves are based on relationships among empirical data.  For example, these premises may be drawn by a statistical studies using the various software packages available to social scientists.  The predictive model is “predictive” insofar as it is capable of generating logically-consistent hypotheses that are then testable empirically.

If you are simply describing with words what your data are telling you, then this isn’t science as that word is normally used, to describe a hypothesis-driven investigation of a subject area.

Carrick on March 11, 2007 at 08:00 am

Nonetheless, an interesting topic.

Without getting sidetracked into the question of the role of government in society, I would suggest that there are three problems with a government-controlled economy:

1) It presupposes as complete of knowledge as is available to the individual producer/consumer.

2) It presupposes as much economic control as is available to the individual producer/consumer.

3) It presupposes that a central committee can act as intelligently as a collective of individual producers/consumers.

It’s pretty obvious that government-controlled economies fails on all three of these, though there are plenty of examples of markets where the one or more of the premises of a free-market system are violated, and where some or complete government control is required.

Carrick on March 11, 2007 at 08:14 am

And yes! That is a passable definition of Rational Anarchist.

Now if we could only get a party going. Instead of a donkey or an elephant, maybe a butcher with that #8 cleaver. Somehow I don’t think very many people in power now or ever will be to enamored with it considering it means taking their power away. “My precious ego! All this selfish philanthropy! How will I wake up in the morning?” In Vermont they have town meeting where the people actually vote on their taxes and the lot. Athenian democracy practically. The rednecks, the chucks, the rich new yorkers, the old timers, the lib mothers, the lawyers, the drunks, and the old timers all having it out in public debate. effing beautiful. its hard for the elitists to pull one over on the rednecks when they’re all in the same place like that. everyone talks. its really a thing to watch. meanwhile the college educated progressive politicians on the state level are busy protecting the poor, stupid rednecks from open debate with college educated people, obviously unfair. my ass. slimy bastards. they are just afraid of what happens in real debate between the voters. they can’t gloss everything over and bullshit people as readily with powerful town meetings. they think, “this power needs to be in our hands and not the populous’s”. maybe that nice massive war/conflict you feel will occur will purge the population numbers down enough for scale to facilitate more fragmented and less centralized autonomous states with control issuing directly from the populous. this seems like a very stable form of gov’t to me because when the power is removed from the people it is obvious.

i take it you don’t like W. Wilson eh 2H9?


rasberry

Sparkie Arbuckle on March 11, 2007 at 11:14 am

Carrick: Those are all pretty good reasons, but I think the main reason command economies are inferior is because govt always tries to use the economic system to implement its favored social and political agenda, rather than use the system to do what it does best: generate wealth.  Individuals, on the other hand, being motivated mainly by self-interest, use the economic system to generate prosperity for themselves, and the net result is to produce the maximum possible amount of wealth at any given time.
It’s that old “Invisible Hand Doctrine” from Adam Smith.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 11, 2007 at 11:49 am

Carrick: To clarify: your reasons explain why command economies would be less productive, even if they had the sole interest of producing prosperity for the people.  Of course, they don’t, which is my point.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 11, 2007 at 12:14 pm

Robert108, I agree with you on that one.  You can’t rely on a central authority to act in the best interests of the collective.  And history reveals to us that it rarely does so, even if it is founded on that principle.

Carrick on March 11, 2007 at 07:09 pm

You can rely on a central authority acting in the best interests of the central authority though.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 11, 2007 at 07:36 pm

Wilson was a mainline elitist, just as everyone else in government and industry at that time. Old money, families that traced their lines back the colonial times. Or pretended to.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on March 11, 2007 at 07:42 pm

AV:

You can rely on a central authority acting in the best interests of the central authority though.

I don’t think that is even true.

The Khmer Rogue and their fixation on ideology is a case in point.  In fact, it’s pretty common for central authorities to miscalculate what their best interests are, if you think about it.  In reality, a distributed system of government is much more likely to come up with a solution that is in the common interests, and therefore in the central authorities best long-term interests.

Carrick on March 11, 2007 at 07:52 pm

Good Point.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 11, 2007 at 08:23 pm

Carrick/AV: It is my contention that the central authority acts in the best interest of the individual who is at the top, especially in a highly centralized system.  Our distributed system, with its private/individual ownership of the means of production and private ownership of capital, is the best compromise for having a rather large state without the usual totalitarianism.
Even though our federal govt represents a large concentration of power, the branches are set against each other, and that benefits the people.  “Bipartisanship” is to be studiously avoided, in order to preserve our individual independence.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 11, 2007 at 08:36 pm

To clarify: I submit to you that in a totalitarian society, everything operates for the best interest of the totalitarian.  If you consider the personality and psychological makeup of a totalitarian, it should be apparent that their perceived best interest is concentration of power(Hillary Clinton), and they will act to accomplish that above all else.  In the furtherance of this end, they want to control the economy, and even the personal lives and behavior of their citizens(slaves).  This explains all the centralized power grabs-environmentalism, taxation and regulation, to name a few.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 11, 2007 at 08:44 pm

It is my contention that the central authority acts in the best interest of the individual who is at the top, especially in a highly centralized system. --Robert108

Not really, it is still self-interest of all players. To use an extreme example, in Stalinist USSR, all who wished to advance their careers had to demonstrate their loyalty to Stalin, like Khrushchev. But once Stalin was dead, and Khrushchev was in the top job, he spent considerable effort in discrediting Stalin. It was self-interest all along.

So I maintain that in all hierarchies, government and corporate, those who reach the top will tend to do whatever necessary to get there. Cheney and Rove are both noted for being ruthless also, not just Hillary Clinton.

I believe we should be continually asking ourselves whether a given institution increases our liberty, or decreases it. And take action accordingly.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Anarchist Vegetarian on March 11, 2007 at 09:43 pm

in Stalinist USSR, all who wished to advance their careers had to demonstrate their loyalty to Stalin, like Khrushchev. But once Stalin was dead, and Khrushchev was in the top job, he spent considerable effort in discrediting Stalin. It was self-interest all along.

You make my point; thank you.

Cheney and Rove are both noted for being ruthless also, not just Hillary Clinton.

More leftie lies about Cheney and Rove; only Hillary has announced her greed for privately earned profits and the desire to fire a half million workers for the “crime” of being in the private sector.  You confuse ruthlessness with totalitarianism, but then that’s to be expected. If I’m starting a company, I want my management to ruthlessly pursue profits, within the law.  You should know better than to compare that to Stalin, Krushchev and Hillary.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on March 11, 2007 at 10:47 pm

Robert108:

It is my contention that the central authority acts in the best interest of the individual who is at the top, especially in a highly centralized system.

I don’t think this is even true.  In totalitarian systems, it’s not uncommon for underlying to lie about having accomplished the goals of the head of the system.  I would replace “best interest” with ”perceived best interest</i>.

Carrick on March 12, 2007 at 06:00 am
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