Say Anything Blog

The Christian Right will stop at nothing to convince the people that we are being taken over by evil. Even fairy tales I read in my youth are being taken off library bookshelves because they “glorify” witchcraft. Bullfeathers! Pretty soon we will have lost all our freedoms if we let these zealots continue their efforts at censorship.

The mythology of “the Christian Right"(thus lumping them in with the NeoNazis and the Black Muslims, real right-wing organizations) is just leftie code for hating Christianity.
Christianity is also portrayed as “socialistic” and “left-wing”, so it’s a little confusing to hear such drivel as “the Christian Right”.  Too funny.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Zig,

Great post, and your concerns are valid.

I think that the Harry Potter thing got swept up in it’s own momentum. Nobody could have expected the popularity of the series, least of all its author, and she can’t be blamed for capitalizing on it.

But your point that it seems to have replaced traditional beliefs and values is a point to be considered. Wave a wand and drive off demons, well, all right. Believe in Christ and do the same, well, you’re being ridiculous.

Good post, man.

The future ain’t what it used to be.....

I think the most deceptive part of the whole Harry Potter dialogue is that White Magick(which is what Harry practices) is some sort of antidote for Black Magick(which is what the Potter villains practice).
The reality is that White and Black Magick are considered to be two sides of human nature, eternally in balance, like Yin and Yang.  The idea that evil can be defeated, not by good, but by Jesus Christ, is unique to Christianity.  Christianity believes in the possibility of improvement, not equilibrium.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

BTW, this is why Christianity is such a vital element in a free enterprise economic system, while “balance” is more amenable to a socialist system, which only aspires to a “common good”.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

what censorship?  Censorship can only be enforced by a government officially.
They have already censored Christian values and books.  Officially.

Any positive mention of Christianity is being hunted down and eradicated from public view and chased out of schools via the persistent efforts of ACLU lawyers.

Positive mentions of Islam, Wicca and Gaia worship are replacing what you or I knew growing up.

I do not call for official government censorship of these books, nor any books.
Now, I will interest my children in books that I think are more positive or non-fictional, shall we say.  There are quite a few books available to read.
Glad to engage in a censorship discussion if anyone likes.

Communism is evil

Thanks Gents,

I can’t say I know that much about the Bible, but I do recall that one of evils’ modus operandi was deception. 

Starting down the wrong path always seemed so innocuous and the lessons against it minimized. Hollywood helps this along by increasingly depicting witchcraft as positive and noble.

Also, I also seem to recall that Lucifer was first an angel, one of great station and of a pleasing countenance.  And what is Hollywood if not the worship of beauty?

Looking up sites that discuss Wicca and Gaia worship, they seem to reject blood sacrifice and the concept that they are in any way evil.

I honestly cannot say for sure whether they are or not, but am concerned that they may be gateways to even darker practices.

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire*, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
-- Deut 18:10-12 KJV

(* refers to child sacrifice in the days of the worship of Moloch)

While I really enjoy J.K. Rowlings’ work, I am concerned for the siren-call it makes to children, who may take it not simply as entertainment, but as a path to be followed.

Wedded to this is Hollywood and Leftist politicians‘ interest in Paganism or the Dark Arts, the Lefts’ campaign to eradicate Christianity, both at home through the ACLU, and abroad through brutal measures, such as in Leftist countries like Red China, Cuba and the old Soviet Bloc, which have persecuted and killed Christians, and how they seek to replace it with their own anti-religion, be it Wicca or the State.

Lastly, while I don’t believe in censorship, I do think that parents have a right to direct the upbringing of their children and do not need to be undercut by the school system.  Particularly a school system which has no problem censoring traditional values, patriotism and the pre-game invocations that have served America so well for so very long.

School systems need to teach your basic science, math and history without inculcating Leftist anti-values and pushing things like a pro-Homosexual agenda.

Parents need to be free to pass on traditional American values and drive home the point that Harry Potter is strictly for entertainment—not emulation.

...for great justice

Move_Zig.  I agree totally with your summary.

I don’t believe in censorship, I do think that parents have a right to direct the upbringing of their children and do not need to be undercut by the school system. 

Parents should have ultimate authority on what, where, when and who teaches their children.  No questions asked.  They should be able to homeschool, independent, church, or private.  Public schools are a disaster and should be zeroed out at the federal level first.

Communism is evil

I can’t believe you guys are seriously discussing Harry Potter.

be sure to spell out to them that this is fantasy

Equally good advice for Harry Potter and that much older work of fantasy (you know which one I mean).

Parents need to be free to pass on traditional American values and drive home the point that Harry Potter is strictly for entertainment—not emulation.

This can be done in about a second. Give your kid a broom and tell him to go fly. Point made. I don’t think anyone can stop you from making it.

BTW, your arguments against witchcraft presuppose your belief in it (just to point that out).

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

BTW, your arguments against witchcraft presuppose your belief in it (just to point that out).

Not true at all.  If something harmful is widely believed, arguing against it doesn’t mean one shares that belief, only that the belief itself is harmful.  One harmful aspect might be its falseness.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Equally good advice for Harry Potter and that much older work of fantasy (you know which one I mean).

If you’re trying to equate the Holy Bible with the Harry Potter stories, that dog won’t hunt.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

If you’re trying to equate the Holy Bible with the Harry Potter stories, that dog won’t hunt.

LOL. You’re right. One of them is entertaining and has a logical plot progression.

Hey, I make a point not to get into faith debates because I believe everyone has a right to their values, but when I see a post attacking secular literature, I’m gonna jump in against the sectarian side of the argument.

Plus I find it insulting when you say that my kids can’t be good without God’s leave.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Plus I find it insulting when you say that my kids can’t be good without God’s leave.

It is both mistaken and arrogant to put those words in my mouth, or in the mouth of any Christian.  It does reveal your ignorance of what Christianity is all about, though.

BTW, justifying your hostility toward the Bible by claiming “secular literature” was “attacked” shows you to be a bullshitter.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I might not be the paper cutout Christian Leftists have in mind when they spit out the word Christian.  In truth, I am closer to something called a Southpark Conservative—not your stereotypical Bible-thumper.

Nonetheless, whatever the pros and cons of Christianity versus Satan-worshipers may be, I look at their direct effects. 

Leftists decry the Bible story as a fairy tale.  Be that as it may, the effect of Christian beliefs on any society is a net positive.  It has been almost exclusively Christian nations that provide untied humanitarian aid to other nations.  It has been Police-State nations that have generally waged war against their own people and then their neighbors.

The key and central tenets of Christianity are:

1) Love God, and;
2) Love thy Neighbor. 

The rest is gravy.  The core belief is love.

Compare and contrast this with others and the evil they have spawned.  Communism has proven to be evil incarnate.  It has led to the slaughter of countless millions of innocents, mass arrests and imprisonment of yet more millions and rule by deception, brute force, murder and terror.  I will include within their grouping all the other State-Control -isms that rely on a police state apparatus to obtain and maintain control.

Can I point to any current or recent government that was led by paganism or Wicca?

I can only think of the cults underlying Hitlers’ beliefs, and we only know these since we overran the Third Reich and were able to rifle through the secret documents which survived. 

We can also look to the absolute hatred, written and demonstrated, by the likes of Lenin, Marx and Stalin for religion, as did Mao and his progeny, right up to the present day. 

Even Islam is markedly different from Christianity in that, at its core, it is a belief system of hatred and conquest, not love.

Any student of history need not be a believer in any of the aforementioned systems to recall the effect they had on the people who lived and died under them.  Thus a better guide for the merits and demerits of any system is the track record they have established over time, rather than the words contained in them.

Lastly there is such a thing as evil.  Whether it exists as an amorphous, disembodied presence, I won’t even bother to contemplate.  I DO know it exists in the hearts of men who have committed the slaughters in Belsen and Dachau, the rapine and slaughter in Nanking, the decades-long criminality that has been personified behind the barbed wire of Soviet Gulags, Chi-Com Lao-gai, Vietnamese, North Korean and Cuban prison camps, the killing fields of Laos and Cambodia, Algeria, Nicaragua, Uganda, Rwanda and countless other places where the flags bearing a Red Star or a Hammer and Sickle flew.

Those sort of countries share another common trait—they are Godless, unless you count the worship of government power as a God.

So, for all the internal inconsistencies my more-religious brethren may suffer from, I would much rather take my chances with a group who confess that they are sinners and strive to be better, than risk my property, my freedom and my life under a regime of Arrogants who presume to know better than I and who will stifle my expression, take my property and in the end, take my life if I disagree with them.

...for great justice

Move_Zig:  The fact that you are a christian in any form is anathema to liberals.  The fact that you have a moral compass makes them shudder.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Those sort of countries share another common trait—they are Godless,

Proving again that evil reigns in the absence of the true loving God.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

BTW, justifying your hostility toward the Bible by claiming “secular literature” was “attacked” shows you to be a bullshitter.

Now who’s putting words in whose mouth? I don’t justify my hostility toward the bible by claiming an attack on secular literature, that’s how I justified my posting to this thread (I wouldn’t have posted otherwise). My hostility toward the bible would take a nice long article to properly spell out.

pparets,

The fact that you have a moral compass makes them shudder.

I actually agree with that. But I would point out that there are plenty of conservative athiests with fine moral compasses. In fact, I think it is highly respectable when someone can find “true north” without having to refer to a book.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Both of you --

Exactly.

I think what is boils down to is the individual conscience of each one of us.

If that individual has been raised as a Christian, he or she has been taught that there is a right and wrong.  To do violence must be justified by some great overweening need.  Otherwise it is a sin and thus the internal controls—hopefully—kick in.

In a Godless society, there is only the Diktat of the State to decree that which is right and that which is wrong.  Even these can change like a weathervane in the wind.  There is no internal control.

Thus the apparatchik, the beaucrat who signs an order, mandating that the military police round up half of the entire city under an order for mass arrest, or the eradication of a village, or the starvation of an entire class of people (for instance, the Kulaks), the soldier who pushes the bayonet into a young lady’s gut, or the officer whose finger pulls the trigger of the Makarov pointed at the back of a prisoners’ head, there is no conscience, only the knowledge that if he does not carry out his orders, he may be on the receiving end, possibly his family as well.

God and corporations act through individuals, and so does any tyrant.  Without his Willing Executioners, any tyrant is merely a ranting, smelly homeless type shouting at the passers-by on a street corner.

It is the individual conscience, or the lack thereof which sets us apart.

It is the teaching of the Bible that gives us a conscience.  In practice, secular societies have descended into chaos.

...for great justice

...when I see a post attacking secular literature, I’m gonna jump in against the sectarian side of the argument.

Plus I find it insulting when you say that my kids can’t be good without God’s leave.

Hairy Polemic on April 20, 2008 at 09:16 pm

I see you’re also a liar.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I see you’re also a liar.

I know you are but what am I? I’m sorry, I don’t really know how to answer personal attacks. Shrug.

Zig,

I was raised in a “godless society” (Communist Russia). My parents did not need God to teach me right from wrong. You would be right to point out that many evils were perpetrated under communism, but…

”The bureaucrat who signs an order, mandating that the military police round up half of the entire city under an order for mass arrest” and the Christian soldier who did the same under the Tzars prior to 1917 had one thing in common: They were ignorant, credulous believers who thought they were doing the bidding of something greater than themselves.

So it’s not really religious people or athiests who are capable of the greatest evil, but merely the dumb. But you’re right, it’s easier to keep the dumb out of jail with religion than it is with athiesm—I grant you that.

But to return to Potter. You need not attack the books to teach your kids that witchcraft is wrong, you can just show them that it isn’t real. At some point we must all grow past the Easter Bunny, Santa, etc…

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

You need not attack the books to teach your kids
that witchcraft is wrong, you can just show them that it isn’t real.

That’s exactly what this post is doing; it’s not an “attack”.  Talk about using personal attack.

Calling you on your lie was factual.  However, I was wrong to call you a liar, since I have only caught you in one lie so far.  Maybe it’s not your habitual mode.  Only time will tell.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I guess you’re right, “attack” was too strong a word. I suppose I jumped in more for emotional reasons, and I apologize for that. I recently saw a show on TV, Jesus Camp or something like that, where these kids were berrated for hours on end, until they were on the floor crying, because they liked to read Harry Potter. They had to admit that they were sinners and going to hell and then renounce JK Rowling and her evil ways. It made me sick.

I’m sure that the show got a Michael Moore-like spin to make it seem worse than it really was, but I can’t really think of any way to put what I saw into a light that would make at least that situation seem better. It was the most despicable thing that I ever saw.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

recently saw a show on TV, Jesus Camp or something like that, where these kids were berrated for hours on end, until they were on the floor crying, because they liked to read Harry Potter.

Jesus Camp was a film about a pentecostal retreat up here in North Dakota.  I got a review copy of the film, and I’ve spoken with several people closely involved with the camp.  As an atheist, I’ll say that the way the pentecostals worship makes me very uncomfortable.  It’s certainly not my cup of tea. 

But that being said, it’s about as fair to base your opinions of that camp up here in North Dakota on that fail as it is to base your opinions of the Bush administration on what you saw in a Michael Moore film.

With enough editing and window dressing a good filmmaker can make anyone look like a nut.  Just be careful on the evidence you’re using to judge people, Hairy.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

By the way, I haven’t read the post or the rest of this thread and I read my kid Harry Potter books every night before bed.

Just a disclaimer for jumping into the middle of things here.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

But that being said, it’s about as fair to base your opinions of that camp up here in North Dakota on that fail

That should read “on that film.”

Sorry.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I suppose I jumped in more for emotional reasons, and I apologize for that.

That was my point back a ways.  Don’t underestimate the power of propaganda films to completely distort the truth, HP; that’s why they’re made and edited.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Hairy,

I am curious.  Coming from a Communist country, where did your parents learn right from wrong?  Communists of every stripe have been taught that the ends justify the means in overcoming the threat of Capitalist Imperialism and performing your internationalist duty.  Communist doctrine has also long incited both Party and Peasantry to a foaming hatred of Christianity. (L. Miller)

That being said, there was also a strong undercurrent of Orthodox Christianity that to some extent survived in Soviet-bloc countries (I just visited some of the Orthodox temples in Belgrade not so long ago).  The Soviets even exploited this suppressed undercurrent, pausing from their arresting and beating priests and worshipers long enough to turn the Great Patriotic War into a Sacred War (Sviashchennaia vojna) I wonder then, if it was from Christianity that your parents learned of good and evil.

Secondly, with regard to intelligence and stupidity being a limiting factor on Man’s Inhumanity to Man.  I beg to differ. 

The German officers and National Socialist party officials who convened at the Wannseekonferenz were no unschooled peasantry.  Nor were the Soviet Party officials who determined policies that kept the Soviet GULAGs stocked with fresh political prisoners at all times.  Yet the crimes these great minds premeditated and ordered executed lacked not so much in intelligence, as a clear comprehension of right and wrong.  Surely you will not be stating that indeed they were justified somehow in inflicting those horrors upon millions of innocents?

Contrariwise, the vast American population during out great depression did not resort to mass protests, riots and criminality that Marxist doctrine would have had us expect.  Instead, for the most part, Americans set to the long, arduous task of working themselves out of a Depression—yet it can be assumed that the vast majority of those Americans had little more than a schoolhouse education and the family Bible.

I submit that it was the teachings of the family Bible and the clear understanding of right and wrong that kept America steady during those difficult years.  It was that reference to an internal moral compass that prevented a descent into chaos.

I want to be clear, if you have missed it before, my attack (and it is not an attack) is not on the work of J.K. Rowling.  She has done an excellent job of creating an entire universe for her characters and brought them to life in a remarkable way.

My concern, as borne out by the links I initially cited to, was that many young children would take the films in the wrong way and try to emulate the characters, much as earlier generations of young toyed with OUIJA boards and came to grief.  They would not see the hidden dangers that a pursuit of witchcraft and wizardry presents.

Even assuming you don’t believe in the concept of disembodied evil that can be brought into your life, you must take into account the type of characters that otherwise-intelligent and well-balanced children will come into contact with.  They will likely be older, Goth-oriented or out-and-out Satanic cult types.  Even if the rituals actually summon or conjure up nothing worse than smoke and incense, these types that your children may now deem to be leaders, can exploit and misdirect your kids in the worst way.

There is nothing good to come from it.

That is my concern.

My call is for close monitoring of your children’s words, actions and communications after getting involved in the Potter series, to ensure that they understand it merely as entertainment and nothing more.

This is made more difficult by the young humans’ habit of finding things which are forbidden them all the more alluring.

Do you see what I am trying to achieve?

...for great justice

One of my two best friends went to that camp in the Jesus Camp movie.  I’ve gone to the same campground for college church retreats, (just a disclaimer here).  I am an evangelical Christian and admit that to those who aren’t used to that type of worship service it could be weird or frightening.

The main reason I like them is the fact that I like upbeat songs and not slow boring hymns.  The Old Testament says that David was filled with so much joy for God that he danced right out of his clothes.  Now we don’t go to that extreme (it would be quite embarrassing that way lol) but there is a joy that comes with worshiping God.  Also, raising ones hands during worship can be an act of surrender to God’s will (as one would raise his hands in front of a robber showing submission and surrender to him).  Sorry if it’s not the best comparison.

I just thought I would give some justification for those who didn’t know the context of evangelical worship services.  peace guys…

A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

To respond to both sides:

Harry Potter is fiction. It has never been disguised as reality. It’s fun for kids like R.L. Stein, the Box Car Kids, etc. My parents made sure I was a bright boy. And as such didn’t have to explain the obvious point that books in the fiction section aren’t real. If your kids are trying to emulate Harry Potter, they’re playing a healthy game. If they think it’s real, and are trying to recreate it...Sorry, you suck as a parent.

Harry, the current idea of good and bad is Christian in nature. Show me the natural progression of ethos outside of Christian and Judaic values that is worth emulating, please.

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.

Rob and rob,

Like I said, I’m sure there was spin in that film, but I imagine the spin was more along the lines of showing only the bad parts of the faith. Well, the bad parts (the kids being made to cry for reading Potter) were pretty fricken bad. I can’t think of any good parts that would (in my mind) redeem it.

Move_zig,

I am curious.  Coming from a Communist country, where did your parents learn right from wrong?

From their parents. My parents happened to be higher level party members and they did not believe a word of party doctrine. You see, the higher level party members did it to survive. We had food every night and we didn’t need to wait at bread lines. If my parents (and the many other EDUCATED party members) believed in communism, they would not have survived that country.

So contrary to what many Americans believe, the majority of the Soviets did not, by the 70s, believe in Communism. Russia was a military state and it was that, and ignorance of the outside, that kept the place from falling apart until 1990. And guess what what was one of the largest causes of the collapse? By the 1980s, the government could not longer keep the people ignorant to how much better it was in the West. Ignorance is what sustains evil, not a lack of religion.

The German officers and National Socialist party officials who convened at the Wannseekonferenz were no unschooled peasantry.

No, but you are equivocating between a small group of evil, self-serving people and the society that enables them. Those German officers would have had no power to do evil were it not for an ignorant society made credulous by Catholic worship. Are you aware that Hitler’s birthday was celebrated in every Catholic church (including the Vatican), even while he was busy burning people, right up to his death?

Contrariwise, the vast American population during out great depression did not resort to mass protests, riots and criminality that Marxist doctrine would have had us expect.

Umm. Seriously brush up on your history. Watch like a historical series or something (I recommend Carnivale, aside from the magic, that fairly accurately captured the child prostitution, riots, murder, etc...)

Do you see what I am trying to achieve?

I don’t want to tell you how to raise your kids, I’m sorry if it seemed like I did.

Finally…

Kenny,

Harry, the current idea of good and bad is Christian in nature. Show me the natural progression of ethos outside of Christian and Judaic values that is worth emulating, please.

Sure: Your conscience. But if you really need something to BELIEVE, if you can’t go without putting a name to something, then go ahead and call it Secular Humanism. You don’t need to believe in God to believe that your fellow man’s life is valuable.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

And Kenny,

Allow me to quote one more thing for your last question.

...Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn in Jericho and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

The Samaritan was not a Levite (Jew), and Christianity did not yet exist in the story. The Samaritan was following his conscience.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy, again I’ve seen the film.  Spoken with people who actually worked at the camp.  It is held in my home state, with the participation of people I know personally.

I find most evangelicals to be pretty silly people, but for you to base your judgment of them on something like Jesus Camp is just plain unfair.

Even if there is nothing to redeem the Harry Potter interlude in the film, is it really fair to paint all evangelicals with that brush as you’re doing now?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

is it really fair to paint all evangelicals with that brush as you’re doing now?

No, and I don’t. I actually like a lot of evangelicals (I was friends with many at my grad school as it was part of a religious University). I’m only painting the ones who have something against Harry Potter because they remind me of the ones from the film.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I actually like a lot of evangelicals (I was friends with many at my grad school as it was part of a religious University).

Some of my best friends are Jews(or black people, Asians, Irish, Eskimos, women-insert appropriate group).

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Well no, they weren’t my best friends, as we did’t have too much in come. But we were friendly and we did go out for drinks and to various events, etc…

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Those German officers would have had no power to do evil were it not for an ignorant society made credulous by Catholic worship.

This is a gratuitous smear, and is untrue.  If you want to know the truth about the spread of Nazism in Germany post WWI, read up on the Treaty of Versailles.
Hint: It had nothing to do with Catholicism.

You see, HP, your attitude seems to be that Christianity somehow forces its morality on people, which is exactly backwards.  No force is involved, and people generally choose religion because it gives them a better life; one that contains God.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

If you want to know the truth about the spread of Nazism in Germany post WWI, read up on the Treaty of Versailles.

You are confusing necessary and sufficient conditions.

The Treaty of Versailles was necessary, not sufficient, to push the Germans to be pissed off with their lot after WWI. Equally necessary (but not sufficient) was the ignorance and credulity of the German people that they inherited from religion that allowed them to get caught up in Hitler’s demagogy (otherwise known as preaching).

Are you really going to argue that religion does not make people credulous? I mean, you do have to be able to suspend some skepticism to believe in the supernatural, no?

No force is involved, and people generally choose religion…

I agree with that. At least as far as today’s Christianity is concerned.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Are you really going to argue that religion does not make people credulous?

By buying wiki’s version of reality(which agrees with your prejudice against religion), you falsely make this an issue; it isn’t the issue at all.
Your “study” of the Treaty of Versailles is woefully incomplete.  You might supplement your reading with just one of the consequences of the Treaty: the disastrous inflation of the Twenties.
Like Obama, Hitler preached “hope” to the German people; even so, his rise to power wasn’t through an honest use of the elective process.  Read up on the “Brown Shirts”.
Before you get your panties in a bunch, I’m not equating Obama with Hitler in all ways; just his use of emotional appeal with little substance.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

By buying wiki’s version of reality

I linked to wiki because it had a good explanation of the necessary vs. sufficient condition, you can look it up somewhere else if you like. It’s filed under Logic.

You might supplement your reading with just one of the consequences of the Treaty: the disastrous inflation of the Twenties.

Once again, the terrible economic consequences created by the Treaty were NECESSARY for Hitler to rile his countrymen, they were not SUFFICIENT.

An additional necessity was their credulity, their willingness to believe his “emotional appeal with little substance.” (Otherwise known as “preaching”.)

In fact, a conservative author, Susan Jocoby, cites mindless credulity as one of the reasons that so many Americans buy into the unsubstantive liberal preachings of people like Obama. Check out The Age of American Unreason.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

It’s filed under Logic.

It should be filed under Opinion.

n fact, a conservative author, Susan Jocoby, cites mindless credulity as one of the reasons that so many Americans buy into the unsubstantive liberal preachings of people like Obama.

Are they all Christians, or are they lefties who have been brainwashed by the constant propaganda of the MSM?

Once again, the terrible economic consequences created by the Treaty were NECESSARY for Hitler to rile his countrymen, they were not SUFFICIENT.

Once again, an opinion; one that supports your negative opinion of Christianity.  How convenient!

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Are they all Christians, or are they lefties who have been brainwashed by the constant propaganda of the MSM?

The latter. The MSM is today’s religious aggitator for the left who are mindless adherents of the church of the Left. Hey I never said that Godly religion alone was bad, any extreme faith is bad.

It should be filed under Opinion.

You’re really not going to look it up are you? I mean, it has nothing to do with God or religion or anything like that, it is simply a logical function. Same as 2 + 2 = 4. And you insist on being ignorant to it. Okay then. Our convo is over.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

No, but you are equivocating between a small group of evil, self-serving people and the society that enables them.

First off, I don’t think you are using the word equivocate correctly: which is to subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse. My guess is you are actually trying to say equivalence as in a congruence relation.

Secondly, in that single sentence you are missing the premise which I stated above and essentially contradicting yourself. 

Your premise seems to be that ignorance breeds a class of enablers, which permits a totalitarian government to thrive.  So far I agree and indeed I made the same point above.

But I discussed the Nazi and Soviet intelligentsia for the specific reason to illustrate that simple ignorance does not prevent evil acts.  These men were educated.  Not scientists for the most part I suspect, but in the upper ranks of their respective governments.  You acknowledged that they were evil and I agree.  My point was that they were both intelligent and evil.  Intelligence was not enough to serve as a check and balance to warn them away from what they were doing. 

While the Germans might have been exposed at some point to religion, it is far less likely that party operatives in Communist Russia and Red China would be influenced by religion as much by propaganda by state-run schools after decades of communist rule.

I suspect that they lacked an internal moral compass.  It is that internal moral compass I am focusing on.  There is less opportunity to develop one under a regime that tries to eradicate all religion (and I am operating under the assumption that the religion discussed speaks of a right and wrong, harm no others, tell no lies, do not steal—type philosophy) than one where religion is freely practiced.

This is born out by recent history, see the study Democide by Prof. Rummel.  Secular societies have a far greater chance of waging war on their own people and on neighboring states.  He generally divides societies by totalitarianism vs. democracy and indeed includes many variables.

Those German officers would have had no power to do evil were it not for an ignorant society made credulous by Catholic worship.

This is where you skew left, or as the Marines might say, start shooting into the berm.

Again, I made a point that no tyrant would amount to anything without their Willing Executioners.  But in that statement you reveal an condescending contempt for religion, accusing followers of being both credulous and ignorant. 

Is your point that you cannot be both educated and a Christian?

Is this a Kerry moment?  Like when he smeared the troops by addressing a graduating class of students saying study hard or you’ll be stuck in Iraq?  Or the contempt Obama recently expressed toward gun-owning or religious Pennsylvanians?

Then there’s this:

Are you aware that Hitler’s birthday was celebrated in every Catholic church (including the Vatican), even while he was busy burning people, right up to his death?

This is a mish-mash of cause and effect, and done in rather poor taste I might add.

The Endloesung (Final Solution) was kept generally a secret from the German populace—not on the same level as rocket guidance systems, but certainly the home newsreels and issues of Signal did not reveal the poison gas and ovens. 

Birthday celebrations of any tyrant—be it the Dear Leader in North Korea, Saddam, Brezhnev, what have you—are command performances.  The Vatican, at the time under the control of the dictator Mussolini would be well advised to play along, as would any local church, which would be under the watchful eye of the local Gauleiter and Gestapo operatives. 

Again, it is low to attribute to religion that which is compelled by a totalitarian state.

Let me summarize what I think is the nub of our disagreement:  secular societies have proven to be far more prone to descending into totalitarianism, and this is born out by the history of the most recent century.  An exception to this, as I noted previously, would be religious governments under Islam, which is essentially an religion of violence and domination, not peaceful coexistence. 

When a religion imparts on the individual actor in society a clear sense of right and wrong, there are far more safety checks up and down the chain of command and at any point a second-in-command might refuse to carry out an unlawful order, right down to the young lance corporal hesitating after being ordered to shoot into a crowd. 

The young Red Chinese troops, in contrast, had no qualms in machine-gunning the students in Tiananmen Square.  There is no religious conscience whispering in his ear that what the State tells him to do is wrong—merely the lifetime teachings of the supremacy of the State.

I am not saying that the free exercise of religion, and specifically Christianity is a panacea, but whether you believed Christ walked on water or not, the weekly reminder to followers to love thy neighbor has a generally positive influence on the stability of nations where Christianity is freely exercised.

This is departing a tad from my original point to just watch your kids as they enjoy Harry Potter, and don’t allow them to stray into Wicca or Satanism if they use him as a role model. 

That’s all.

...for great justice

Hey I never said that Godly
religion alone was bad, any extreme faith is bad.

You mistakenly equate all belief systems, when you should know better, since you claim to have been raised under communism.  Unlike you, I don’t see all religion as bad, or even equivalent.  That’s your mistaken premise, which leads to wrong conclusions.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

You acknowledged that they were evil and I agree. My point was that they were both intelligent and evil. Intelligence was not enough to serve as a check and balance to warn them away from what they were doing.

That’s where the equivocation comes in.

“Equivocation is classified as both a formal and informal fallacy. It is the misleading use of a word with more than one meaning (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).”

You equivocate being evil and doing evil. Man, religious or not, can always be evil. But, only the credulous followers of Nazism allowed those intelligent men to do evil unto others. Otherwise, they would have had no power to do evil.

Is this a Kerry moment?  Like when he smeared the troops by addressing a graduating class of students saying study hard or you’ll be stuck in Iraq?

LOL. I’m not running for president. I have no problem admitting that I’m probably not in Iraq because I studied hard. Just because something is in bad taste doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

I don’t agree with Obama’s comment though. That was unthinking elitism (he was simply wrong). But that’s for another conversation.

secular societies have proven to be far more prone to descending into totalitarianism, and this is born out by the history of the most recent century.

That argument is constantly made and then constantly refuted when people point out that Communist Russia was an EXTREMELY orthodox, religious society before the revolution. As Christopher Hitchens put it, “Stalin could not be a successful dictator if he didn’t know to take advantage of the culture of extreme credulity that he inhereted from his Tzarist predescessors.”

And once again, that plays into my argument: Credulity gives evil people the power to do evil things.

There is no religious conscience whispering in his ear that what the State tells him to do is wrong—merely the lifetime teachings of the supremacy of the State.

He is a religious adherent in the church of the state. Where did he learn to be so faithful? Oh, I know! They were orthodox Buddhist/Toists before the state took over!

But fine, I understand that if you strongly believe a certain thing, you will not allow yourself to follow that line of logic. So I don’t ask for it.

I’m sorry that I commented on the Potter stuff, like I said earlier, it was an emotional reaction. I really didn’t mean to get into a religious debate.

Filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

But, only the credulous followers of Nazism
allowed those intelligent men to do evil unto others.

Once again, you ignore the facts in your lust to make Christianity responsible for Hitler.  Hitler rose to power through intimidation and use of force, not by credulousness on the part of the populace.  His political followers did so because they wanted power, not any other reason.  His Brown Shirts and SS were promised a share of the power, as part of a political elite.  To think otherwise is to ignore the facts of history.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

As Christopher Hitchens put it, “Stalin
could not be a successful dictator if he didn’t know to take advantage of the culture of extreme credulity that he inhereted from his Tzarist predescessors.”

Christopher Hitchens is certainly entitled to his own opinion, but his atheism just might be what has led to his own credulousness against religion.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Sure: Your conscience. But if you really need something to BELIEVE, if you can’t go without putting a name to something, then go ahead and call it Secular Humanism. You don’t need to believe in God to believe that your fellow man’s life is valuable.

Secular Humanism is loosely based on Christianity. As Dinesh D’Souza noted, all of the tenets Secular Humanists value as “human rights” (equality of woman, end to slavery, etc) are Christian in nature.

And the story of the Good Samaritan didn’t happen. It was a parable. Using the story Jesus told to discredit my thesis is like using Harry Potter as a study in how real world children act.

Indeed, the “Good Samaritan” story was told to shock his Jewish audience. Samaritans at the time were considered dirty...a lesser breed (Jesus himself calls a Samaritan woman a dog). And as much as the idea that it was important to teach his listeners about being good, it was also a story about learning to not be so haughty and self righteous. And quite a jab at the Jewish spiritual leadership at the time.

So, a fictional story, come up with by that guy who started Christianity, disproves the influence of Christianity (let alone Judaism) on morality? Wow, that’s a stretch Harry.

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.

Harry, wow, you are just unbridled conceit. Where to start...how about:

Soldiers tend to be MORE educated, not less, than the populous. Patriotism and self sacrifice are not signs of stupidity, and it’s pretty damn smug for you to say that you’re not there because you’re smart (meaning they’re all dumb).

That a political athiesm (Secular humanism) seeks to replace God with the state doesn’t make it a religion akin to Christianity. And I think the SS had a lot more to do with enforcing order than “credulity”.
It’s hard to take someone seriously who blames religion for the evils of Communism of Nazism. Germany was in economic hardship before WW2. The poor people wanted leadership and Hitler promised something new. While he pandered to religious leaders, there is no clue he was an athiest who hated religion. And his appeal was that he promised to make everything better (like Obama), not that he mentioned God every now and again. The Treaty of Versallis and Nationalist pride had a hell of a lot more to do with Hitler’s rise than “credulity”.
Zig was a hell of a lot more detailed about it, and I defer to his brilliant retort.

And Hitchens is wrong on everything regarding religion. Which is a shame given how smart he normally is.

And finally, the link for “Secular Humanism” is a list of mostly irrelevant court cases. Unless you’re going to argue that letting someone take a tax write off for “non-religion” is some great triumph for humanity on the level of the civil rights movement...I think you’re best abandoning such tripe.

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.

Thanks Kenny.

And now to HP (not Harry Potter)

You equivocate being evil and doing evil. Man, religious or not, can always be evil. But, only the credulous followers of Nazism allowed those intelligent men to do evil unto others. Otherwise, they would have had no power to do evil.

To equivocate is an intentional act.  Are you saying that I am being intentionally deceptive?

Whether you are being insulting or just using the word improperly, it does come across as arrogant.  Moreover, my take is that you are objectively and logically incorrect.

Voters from every age should study Hitlers’ rise to power.  For awhile, during the very early 1920’s, Germany had a brief period of affluence.  Hitlers’ street corner rantings attracted few followers.  Indeed, his abortive Munich Beerhall Putsch fell flat and he ended up doing a stretch in Landsberg prison.

It was only after the effects of the worldwide recession and the worsening effects of Versailles that the populace started to look elsewhere for answers.

The Weimar Republic had proven to be completely ineffectual and the danger of Communism was threatening every nation in the midst of Recessions or Depressions.  It is said that Industrialists started clandestine support for Hitler, as his version of a command economy would allow Industrialists like Krupp, M.A.N., Zeiss and the like to maintain ownership of the means of production (versus the sweeping nationalizations, as threatened under Lenin). 

Hitler, like Clinton, was a mesmerizing public speaker.  He was a master of crowd psychology, and before major speeches, such as the (Messe) Party Congress Rallys, often held in Nuremburg, he would first send out lesser party officials to give their speeches.  Hitler would listen in and gauge the crowds’ responses to various points—floated up in the manner of trial balloons—so by the time his turn was up, he was hitting on guaranteed G Spot material.

What did he say to convince the German people to vote for him?  Here’s one section I recalled from a newsreel, originally in German, so the words will be inexact:

Never believe in foreign aid!

Never believe in foreign promises!

(rather)

Believe only in self sufficiency! 

Believe only in your own capabilities and your own People’s Love! (Volkesliebe)

(The crowd went wild at this last string of rapid-fire statements)

And for a long time Hitler was making good on his promises.  He stunned the world to show that in a few short years he turned the German Depression around, gained almost full employment and restarted the machines of industry.

Germany had been a proud nation of great accomplishment, very proud, in fact of its military traditions.  Versailles was a horrendously flawed document.  It rubbed Germanys’ face in the dirt and was meant to bleed Germany white. It was a victors’ revenge and planted the seeds for WWII. 

Thus, Hitler—in the eyes of not just Germany, but the rest of the world, was doing great things.  Roosevelt marveled at how Hitler was killing several birds with one stone: creating jobs for those who needed them and revamping national infrastructure and restoking the furnaces of industry.  He created the Reiches Arbeit Dienst (Imperial Labor Service) which Roosevelt emulated with the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) and WPA (Work Projects Administration), along with a National (Defense) Highway System, thus the American highway system and many civil engineering projects were fashioned after the NAZI model.

If there were warnings that Hitler was going to shift from economic (and military) rebuilding and the reoccupation of former German territories over to wars of conquest, he had not just the German people fooled—he had the rest of the world fooled, including your favorite communist himself, Uncle Joe Stalin, who refused to believe that Hitler had planned Operation Barbarossa (the Invasion of Russia) since he greatly admired Hitler, had penned the Brest-Litovsk Treaty with him and split Poland with him.

To attribute religion with the credulity needed to allow Hitler to ascend to power is being disingenuous, at best.  Hitler simply lied and people believed him.  But this has been true for politicians—with varying degrees of surprises for the constituents—for as long as there has been popular elections.

And to attribute positive things from Soviet Party members, who comprised what, nine percent or so, max of the Soviet population… defies reason.

You know and if you are honest with us here, you will admit, that the Party was one riven with corruption and favoritism.  Individual loyalties, paid with or punished with perks, was the currency of the regime.  Vacations in Sochi, access to those special stores where Western goods might be obtained, head of the line privileges for apartments, the few Soviet-made cars (mostly FIAT rip-offs) and the possibility of foreign travel.  Survival was ensured by continually kissing ass, doing favors (zamolvitche za minye slavitchka!) and deception.

And then there’s this:

LOL. I’m not running for president. I have no problem admitting that I’m probably not in Iraq because I studied hard. Just because something is in bad taste doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

By which I can gather that you agree with Kerry’s premise?

And more to the point that, by my understanding of your responses or failures to respond as the case may be, that your position is that you cannot be Christian and intelligent?

...for great justice

To attribute religion with the credulity needed to allow Hitler to ascend to power is being disingenuous, at best.  Hitler simply lied and people believed him.  But this has been true for politicians—with varying degrees of surprises for the constituents—for as long as there has been popular elections.

This deserves some expounding. One of the common comments about fascism is that, whatever their faults, the fascists kept the trains running on time.

Fascism was insanely popular because it was about rising above politics, and finding a new way that was neither right or left. It was about getting past personal disagreements and getting things done to better the nation. Everyone will be taken care of! Work weeks will be shorter! Free health care for everyone! And dogs and cats will finally get along! It appealed not only to the hardcore sects that were inflamed by Communism and communalism, but to the desperate and down trodden. “Follow us”, it said, “and we will cure ALL your problems.” Hitler’s appeal above even the others was that he was a brilliant public speaker. Even W.E.B. Dubois had a little bit of a man crush on Hitler. Hitler appealed to people from Italy all the way to America and even into Russia.

To the proud Germans, who had been financially crippled by Versallis, who had been militarily defeated in WW1, and who were still being humiliated after the war, Hitler was a dream come true. He promised to rebuild the economy, rebuild the military, and, Most Importantly: restore the broken German pride. Germany needed help, as it was “under assail from outside forces”. He not only promised to cure all, but let the Germans know that their bad luck wasn’t their fault. It was the unfairness of the rest of Europe, and those nasty Jewish immigrants, taking German jobs and money.

Looking at Germany at the time, if Hitler hadn’t risen to power, someone just like him would’ve. Germany was practically crying out for a leader like him. The extent that Christianity played into it was that Hitler said he felt he was doing God’s will in restoring Germany. If anything, Christianity hindered Hitler, which he realized and commonted on in “Table Talk.”

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.