Say Anything Blog

Even though only 12% of the population, according to the last figures I have read, are affected, many of these people are single parents attempting to rear their children on not much of anything except the social programs conservatives so despise.

Baloney.

Most of the people making minimum wage are students working part-time jobs.  Or other part-timers like stay-at-home moms or retirees.

The real beneficiaries of minimum wage hikes are the unions, who don’t make minimum wage but negotiate their contracts based on it.

But regardless, the government doesn’t have any more business fixing the price of labor than it has fixing the price of goods or services.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yet these same conservatives don’t want a raise that might take some of the millions away from corrupt CEO’s This is typical leftie mythology; minimum wage laws don’t take anything away from management - they take it away from the consumers and increase unemployment in the lowest level of workers; the entry level ones. and give it to the bottom tier that actually, with the labor of their hands makes this profit possible.It is the cooperation between capital and labor the creates prosperity; workers would have no jobs without capital investment, and labor makes the capital worthwhile; it is not an adversary relationship, as Karl Marx believed. Workers are uundervalued,Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, and that includes labor. but let’s see their company florish without them.Again, let’s see the “workers” have a job to go to without capital investment first.

Oh happy day, you and you get a raise, but guess what you just lost some benefits and you get to do Fred’s job because I just laid him off.

Oh Happy Days.

By the way Margie, it’s not 12%.  Why do you have to lie to make your point?

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Margie: I have always been curious why we think that someone who decides to be an entrepreneur or to be an investor, and who takes all the risks necessary to keep our economic engine running, who furnishes the money and the knowhow to create and run a business that employs many people, is not thought worthy of being taken care of if he suffers any reverses; he is on his own, and furthermore, is reviled by people like you when he is successful and becomes wealthy from his efforts.  On the other hand, someone who decides to be a low level worker for wages his entire life, who benefits from the employment opportunities created by others, is considered everyone’s responsibility if he suffers any reverses, and is practically worshipped by certain segments of society to the extent that they are willing to confiscate money and resources from others to support this person.  I just don’t get it. Could it be “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”?  Maybe.

Merry Christmas!

Could it be “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”?  Maybe.

I think it’s that we dishistoricize the minimum wage worker.  Rather than seeing someone who has made her own bad decisions, people tend to see that person on minimum wage in isolation from her history and choices, as if she had just popped into existence as a person on minimum wage.

That’s my impression, though, despite Husserl’s protestations, phenomenology is no science.

(I’m pretty liberal, so it probably bears noting that the above is a critique of minimum wage)

Right, Whistler.  The percentage appears to be just a little over 2%.  Here is one of the many links with the facts.

Communism is evil

jpe: I object to minimum wage largely on economic grounds, since it makes no sense to let govt legislate the price of labor in a free economy, but also on the grounds of its insincerity.  If we really think the govt should decide some minimum living standard for us, why not make it a good one?  After all, if it’s a good idea, why not make it $40,000 a year?(just to pick a number)
Of course, we could never afford this, as a society, and that would reveal the truth about a “minimum wage”; it’s up to the individual to decide what they want to earn, and then go about doing what is necessary to make that happen.  Anything else is just foolishness.

Merry Christmas to you!

Undoubtedly many people that are for an increased minimum wage are driven by their greed to get something they did not earn.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

TW: I agree. True greed is wanting everything you want in life, and wanting someone else to pay for it.

Wages and productivity are largely connected.  An employer, or a person if self-employed will determine their own wages in a free country.  What Social Democrats want is to control our free country like is done in communist countries.  The first thing they do is to restrict one’s ability to hunt for food, then grow their own crops, that is after they restrict water.  Food and water are necessary for life to exist.  Joseph Stalin and Sadam knew this.  Ask Ukranians and Kurds.

Communism is evil

Undoubtedly many people that are for an increased minimum wage are driven by their greed to get something they did not earn.--The Whistler

I always had a sneaking suspicion that you were a little thick. If the minimum wage is so lucrative that those people seeking to increase it further must be just plain greedy, don’t fret, I am sure there is a minimum wage job waiting for you. You can get your cut of the big-time too.

I’ll type slowly for all of you other ‘tards. The minimum wage is about power, not greed. A single employer has more bargaining power than a single employee. If more employees were smart, they’d belong to unions. The negotiating power of an entire union is greater than any individual member (and unlike businesses, unions are at least potentially democratic).

The goal of a (pathetic) minimum wage is to protect those who whose skills are not sufficiently scarce such that they can negotiate decent wages. For example, women who get pregnant when young often miss out on some education opportunities and usually only get the option of poorly-paid work when they try to re-enter the workforce.

And for all of the simple `It’ll hurt the economy types’, the country in the OECD which now has the lowest unemployment has had the minimum wage increased by more than 50% in the last eight years. Maybe workers with more money is good for the economy? And maybe your poorly thought-out market myths are just that.

NEW YORK, December 22 (newratings.com) – Pfizer Inc (PFE.NYS), the world’s largest drugmaker, Thursday said in a regulatory filing that its outgoing CEO, Hank McKinnell, would receive nearly $198 million in total compensation.

The company, in its recent regulatory filing with the SEC, said that McKinnell will receive $12 million in severance payments, a $2 million pro-rated bonus for 2006, $6 million in restricted stock payments and $18 million in other stock payments. The compensation package includes an estimated $82.3 million in pension benefits and $77.9 million in deferred compensation. McKinnell has been succeeded by Jeffrey Kindler as Pfizer’s new Chairman and CEO. McKinnell is to exit the board of directors in February. The company’s share price had declined by nearly 40% during McKinnell’s tenure as Chairman.
Down with the communists that want to increase the minimum wage.
Down with the socialists that want to regulate the price of medicines.
Viva the Capitalists like Hank McKinnell Pfizer’s outgoing CEO for he has made the right decisions in life.

...Hank McKinnell Pfizer’s outgoing CEO for he has made the right decisions in life.

I know you really don’t believe that, but you happen to be right in this case. CEO compensation is based on entirely different criteria than that of the average worker; there is no cause and effect relationship between the two, no matter what you want to believe.  Your mean-spirited attack on this guy won’t raise any wages, no matter what.  Wages are based on the value of the worker to the company, minus all the benefits and accounting costs of employment.  If you want to raise wages, get the govt out of private enterprise.

Merry Christmas!

AV: Real greed is wanting someone else to pay for your life, instead of earning it yourself.

And what does the minimum wage have to do with the CEO earnings at Phizer.

Let’s talk about the small businessman who works 80 hours a week while his wife works 60 hours a week in order to take home 40,000 to spend on their family.

Surely they don’t need $40,000 to live on and raise their family.  Force them to pay $7 bucks to that part time kid so he can buy more video games.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

The minimum wage is about power, not greed. A single employer has more bargaining power than a single employee.

Not true, as soon as the single employee finds a job that pays better they can walk off of their job.

It’s quite a bit more difficult for an employer to do the same.  They have to worry about all kinds of labor laws let alone the moral of the people that work for them.  (I’ve been there when firing the guy nobody in the business liked causes a drop in morale.)

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Whistler, why do you and most of your conservative co-horts love to call people liars? I don’t get it. The newspaper article I read about President
Bush’s new interest in raising the minimum wage, in the Richmond Times Dispatch, gave the 12% figure. They may or may not have been right. I don’t know. But I do not lie.

As for greed, the comparison is ludicrous. Regardless of what you say, asking for #7.50 an hour for hard physical labor is greedy while sitting in an air-conditioned office and making bad decisions, as the Phizer CEO oviously did is somehow admirable? That goes against all reason!

Sure, small businesses have a rough time. That’s why I think that tax breaks for them should go along with a raise in minimum wage.

There are many people out there who made bad decisions early on in their lives and now are too mired down in daily survival to afford the only thing that can get them out of the mess they have made of their lives---educational oppertunities, and they don’t come cheap. That small raise in minimum wages probably would not make the difference in being able to go to a community college or obtain job skill training, but it you wanted it badly enough, it would put you further along that Path.It would be great if humans were perfect and did not mess up their lives, but many do. That does not justify many large companies taking advantage of that fact to keep labor costs down and their extravagant profits and top management wages up. If they had any sense of fairness whatsoever, they would recognize that lower teir workers deserve a fairer return for their labor. Unions would not have been necessary if business owners had the decency to pay fair wages for the people responsible for their prosperity. That is not charity, that is decency.

And what does the minimum wage have to do with the CEO earnings at Phizer.The Whistler on December 25, 2006 at 10:49 pm

Margie: I repeat: CEO compensation is not simply about performance, as is the pay of wage earners, even though you think it should be. You give the classic “class envy” argument.  You use the term “ask for”, but it’s really a demand, more like a threat.  In any case, things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, and that goes for labor, as well.  It also applies to CEO compensation.

You can rationalize an inequity to death, try to justify thievery any number of ways, but anyone who has ever put in long hours at hard labor knows their value to the company, whether that company finds it inconvient to recognize it or not. Seems to me, ya’ll would be yelling about the unreal and disporportionate salaries of big company management in relation to their value to a company. Do you really need three managers to do the work of one at exoribant salaries and benefits? Wouldn’t it make better business sense to shift some of that profit to the people who actually produce the goods? What a senseless world!

No, CEO pay is about the “good ole boy” network, not actual value to a company. I don’t feel class envy. I feel a justifiable outrage at a congress, producing not much of anything lately except discord and corruption that has the unmittigated gall to raise their own, already bloated salaries, yet deny even a tiny raise to the bedrock workers of American industry. Justify it how you will, wrong is wrong.

Margie: It’s neither “inequity” nor “thievery” when a business chooses what to pay its employees, whatever their job is.  In a free country, they get to make that decision, and anyone who doesn’t like it can work elsewhere.  If what you suggest made better business sense, they would be doing it, or some other business in their field would do it and take all the business.  Since that doesn’t seem to be happening, maybe your perception of the situation is not accurate.  Your ideology isn’t good business, no matter how passionately you may believe in it.

Merry Christmas!

No, CEO pay is about the “good ole boy” network, not actual value to a company.

I know you would really like to believe that, but it just isn’t true.  Very few people are qualified to do CEO work, unlike hourly workers, who are numerous.  You are comparing things that have no relationship to each other, but you really want to believe that they do. I guess it helps to have someone else to blame.

Merry Christmas!

Ellinas, thank you for the information. I am glad no one saw fit to call you a liar and question your sources. I dislike having my integrity questioned each time I disagree with someone and my sourse does not jive with theirs. Who is to say which one is accurate?

The bulk of CEO pay is based on the fact that their head is always on the chopping block and the buck stops with them.

When you get into the really big pay ($5 mill +) that is basicly pay for being a scapegoat when something goes wrong.

And is the slave wages paid to workers overseas that American companies drool over and leave American workers in the dust in their moves to take advantage of ok with you too?

You can justity mistreatment of workers with the freedom of choice credo, but when business has all the power, it is the business of congress to look out for the welfare of all its powerless citizens.

The head hauncho making decisions for the company has nothing to do with the employees who work there? Come on, Robert! That is a disconnect that doesn’t even make sense! Bad decisions at the top affect everyone in that company. Their job security is put at risk. They say you get what you pay for, but obviously, that isn’t always true. Where is your outrage that this particular CEO let all these people down and got paid an unbelievable amount of money to do it?

I’d be happy to screw up, freerepublic, for $5 million and be on my merry way. Don’t need much education for that.

All politics aside, I hope all of you had as nice a Christmas as I did, with my kids and grand-babies around me. Family is what it is all about to me.

Rob, congradulations on your marriage, and I hope it a long and happy one. Your little girl is beautiful and precious to you, I know.

"Most of the people making minimum wage are students working part-time jobs. Or other part-timers like stay-at-home moms or retirees.”

By this rationale, are we to pay employees by what we think they need, less if they are students just paying for college, rather than their value to the company? Well, I really don’t see the need to pay already wealthy top management so much. After all, they don’t need it. They just want it.

Thanks, everyone for responding to this post. Our basic disagreement seems to be the definition of “value to the company” and whether the government should intervene with a minimum wage when that definition becomes corrupted. Basic question: Does the government have a legitimate interest in the survival of it’s lowest paid citizens to the extent that that interest outweighs a company’s right to set wages to suit themselves? I say yes, Ya’ll say no. Don’t see any compromise there. It’s been interesting. And if you hear of any openings for CEO’s-----

The head hauncho making decisions for the company has nothing to do with the employees who work there? Come on, Robert! That is a disconnect that doesn’t even make sense!

I never said any such thing; I said that the basis of compensation of top-level management has no direct causal relationship with the pay of the wage earners.  At least read what I write before you go off on your demonizing of business rant.
Your piece about the govt being justified in interfering in business to accomplish a claimed social goal is the argument for socialism, and it impoverishes all but the political class.  We have mahy examples of this.  The truth is that labor is worth very little without capital, and that is the part that Marx got the most wrong.  It is the incentive of low wages that drives people to improve their lot, and when govt takes that away by stealing from Peter to give to Paul to assure Paul’s vote, the entire system goes to hell.  It may sound good to someone who doesn’t understand economics, but the reality is quite a bit different.  Only in a socialist society are the low wage people a fixed group; in our economy, they are always moving up and being replaced by new entry level people.  Only illegal immigration can change that, with a fairly permanent underclass kept that way by the greedy desire of the Dems and union bosses for permanent, dependent voters to replace the ones who have seen the light through upward mobility.  It’s the new “plantation”, Margie, and you are on the side of those who want to do this to America.  Think about it.

Byebye entry level jobs, byebye. See you at the unemployment office. Then we can all dance our way over to the welfare office. YEA!!!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Margie,

As someone who has spent time in Third World nations, I can tell you that paying a worker a wage, that is remotely close to that of an American worker, will cause economic damage. 

This happens because those workers, who get paid American type wages, now have huge amounts of money to throw around compared to their average countryman.  Because most goods and services are extrememly cheap, the huge influx of cash will cause most local merchants to raise their prices for those goods.  This increase in inflation will hurt the other 90% of people who do not have some high-paying job.  Those people will no longer be able to afford the essentials, and starve to death.  What little money they mght have saved, will have become worthless due to the inflation.

Increases in wages has to be a gradule process, which will takes years.  Otherwise, you end up causing tremendous harm to the local economies.  Of course the alternative is true as well:  You simply don’t offer the low paying (by our standards) jobs, and most of the people starve because there are few jobs to be found.  Opening a factory, which pays a meager income by our perspective, is beneficial to those underdeveloped economies.  Over time, the influx of new money, instead of a flood, will create more jobs locally, as more goods and services are desired.  It is a slow process, but one which has to happen. 

Sometmes, the best intentions, have effects which we fail to see.  In this case, paying workers too much, can be disastrous to the local economies.

I’ve asked the question what does the pay of the CEO of Phizer have to do with the pay of minimum wage workers.

I’ll answer the questions since Margie and all won’t.  Nothing.  Phizer is in an industry which pays quite well.  NONE of their workers make minimum wage. 

The only reason why you keep bringing up instances like this is because you have to argue dishonestly.

I asked Margie why she had to lie about the numbers of workers making minimum wage.  I asked her why her side had to lie in order to make a case.

Since she won’t answer the question I’ll answer it for her.  That side doesn’t have a rational arguement so they have to make up their facts.  Now is Margie responsible for this?  I believe so since she’s been confronted with the truth before and chose to ignore it. 

I also asked the question of why the struggling small business owner should take a cut in his standard of living so that the teenager can buy one more video game a month. 

Margie chose not to answer that question either although it is the crucial point of the minimum wage.  It’s crucial because it describes the people that are likely to be earning the minimum wage along with the business sceanerio that is likely paying the mimimum wage.

She can’t answer it because it ruins her entire I-AM-Good-Because-I-Care throne she’s placed herself on.

One question I haven’t asked is how can she look entry level workers in the eye when she’s doing her best to price them out of the labor market.  She should be ashamed of herself, but since she’s not a rational person she blames the CEO of Phizer which has nothing to do with entry level employment.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

While we are in the question askin’ mode here, why should I have to pay someone $8 an hour when the work they are doing is only bringing in $5 an hour?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Let’s talk about the small businessman who works 80 hours a week while his wife works 60 hours a week in order to take home 40,000 to spend on their family.
The Whistler on December 25, 2006 at 10:49 pm
So whistler lets break down your flimsy argument.
Husband 80 hours + wife 60 hours equals 140 hours weekly times 52 weeks per anum equals 7280 hours annualy. Now devide $40000 by 7280 and you get $5.49per hour.
This small buisinessman is a failure and needs to get out of whatever buisiness he/she is in and get a decent job. Hell working at McDonalds 80 hours a week will give that much.
So I say Whistler in this case you are full of shit.

So...a businessman who makes only $5.50/hour is a failure and should get out of business...but a worker who makes only $5.50 deserves a government-mandated raise?

Makes no sense to me.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

On the other hand, someone who decides to be a low level worker for wages his entire life, who benefits from the employment opportunities created by others, is considered everyone’s responsibility if he suffers any reverses, and is practically worshipped by certain segments of society to the extent that they are willing to confiscate money and resources from others to support this person.  I just don’t get it. Could it be “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need”?  Maybe.
Merry Christmas!
robert108 on December 25, 2006 at 01:26 pm

So according to your right wing propaganda someone,anyone woke up one day and decided to be a low wage worker all his life.
Swift meat company had nothing to do with it since they decided it was more economical to hire illegals and not pay the american worker a decent wage.

Whistler said:Undoubtedly many people that are for an increased minimum wage are driven by their greed to get something they did not earn.
And I answerfizer Inc (PFE.NYS), the world’s largest drugmaker, Thursday said in a regulatory filing that its outgoing CEO, Hank McKinnell, would receive nearly $198 million in total compensation.
The company’s share price had declined by nearly 40% during McKinnell’s tenure as Chairman.
I guess this man was not driven by greed. He is a most charitable person, for when the stock price fell by 40% during his tenure he did the shareholders a favor and got only $198 million. No greed here for this Mckinell is a man of God who values hard work and was paying decent wages to the person who was cleaning his toilet.

So...a businessman who makes only $5.50/hour is a failure and should get out of business...but a worker who makes only $5.50 deserves a government-mandated raise?
Makes no sense to me.
Rob on December 26, 2006 at 10:32 pm

Likewise it makes no sense to me for you to be opposed for both of them to get a pay raise government mandated or otherwise.

How are you going to give a small business owner a payraise?  Get the government to mandate that his customers pay him more?

I don’t think the government has any more business capping or fixing the price of labor than it does capping or fixing the price of goods.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Whistler, I do not believe your figures for the percentage of minimum wage workers. I believe my source to be reliable. Everything that does not support your position is a lie to you. Everyone who does not agree with you is dishonest. I’ve never seen such sheer arrogance! Has it ever crossed your mind that someone can honestly have a different viewpoint? Is every liberal in this country a dishonest liar? Because they have been “confronted with your truth” and do not accept it? I confronted you with “my Truth” and you do not accept it, should that make you a dishonest liar to me, or simply someone who holds an opposing view and is willing to defend it? What makes you think your information is more valid than mine? The Times-Dispatch does not just make things up out of thin air and if they did, it is not likely that a conservative to moderate Republican newspaper would make up figures to support a liberal cause.

You are still trying to perpetrate the myth that teenagers with no responsibilites except acquiring the latest vidio are about the only people effected by the minimum wage. There of many adults with families doing that. The issue to me is not that we determine wages by need, but that the work they do is undervalued automaticly in conservative minds. No the market will not always set a fair price for labor without union or government intervention. Employers will pay people with no other work options what they jolly well can get away with.

Unfortunately, Robert and Sluggo, a lot of what you said made sense to me. But one point that I disagree with: A lot of people will not be moving up the wage ladder because of a lack of educational oportunities. When you are feeding an housing a family, one you admittedly should not have dropped out of school to have, you can’t afford to go back and undo that mistake. You are stuck right where you are and will contine to pay for that mistake for the rest of your life, as will your family. There are also many people who lack the ability to advance, either in skill or brain power. I don’t say that in a derogatory way, it is just a fact. Nevertheless, their sheer physical labor is being undervalued and always will be. Their work is worth considerably more to the company than the company is willing to admit or pay for. Because they can get away with it. Government intervention is justified in my mind, in the form of a raise in the minimum wage. We will never agree on that, of course, but, Whistler, my beliefs are sincere and not based on ego. They are based on a strong sense of justice and fairness.

The straight dope on the minimum wage numbers:

About 520,000 people nationally (about three tenths of one percent of our work force) make the minimum wage.  But of that 520,000 roughly half are teenagers.

So that leaves about 260,000.  Of those, it’s hard to say how many are just retirees keeping busy or stay-at-home moms working a job for vacation money.

The number of people actually subsisting on the minimum wage alone is so small as to be inconsequential.  Which is why the minimum wage debate isn’t so much about helping people as it’s about increasing union contracts, which are based on the minimum wage.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Whistler, I do not believe your figures for the percentage of minimum wage workers. I believe my source to be reliable. Everything that does not support your position is a lie to you.

Gee Margie, it takes all of six seconds to do a google search like Rob did to find the right answer. 

It’s one thing to believe bad information Margie.  It’s another to keep repeating it after you’ve been told it’s a lie.  At that point you are lying.

Of course Rob’s figures that he pointed out puts a lie to the rest of the drivel you’re pointing out.  Why would we screw up the economy for .003% of the workforce?

If you feel sorry for the folks who you think need help then you should help them out.  You’re fix (a higher minimum wage) will likely cause more harm than what you’re improving.

Why do you hate entry level workers Margie?

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Husband 80 hours + wife 60 hours equals 140 hours weekly times 52 weeks per anum equals 7280 hours annualy. Now devide $40000 by 7280 and you get $5.49per hour.
This small buisinessman is a failure and needs to get out of whatever buisiness he/she is in and get a decent job.

Notice I said “taking home” in my example.  Many small business people make sacrifices in the near term to build up their small business.  Profits may be weak during the building stage

This guy is likely to retire as a millionaire.

But Ellinas the investment genius calls him a failure.  Shows just how much Ellinas knows.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I just searched the Times-Dispatch for the article I was remembering. It said that Democrats in the Va. House of Delegates and the Va. Senate stated that the raise in the minimum wage would affect 450,000 or 12% of Va. workers. Was this a misprint, Rob? I don’t know how to tell you to access this. I just put in “minimum wage” under search entire site after I went to timesdispatch.com.

Do the numbers vary, depending on whether they are being quoted by Dem. or Rep.? Who are you to believe? If these numbers are correct, then I don’t think I want to see the numbers for all 50 states!

The minimum wage reduces the number of jobs that will be filled by lawful Americans and increases the number of jobs availible to illegal immigrants; thus those that advocate for the minimum wage are one in the same as those that advocate open borders and zero-enforcement of immigration laws.

So the conclusion is that the only people that benifit from the minimum wage are the employers willing to break our immigration and employment laws.

---

Margie,

I see you were a waitress and so you were subject to the sub-minimum wage and your wages were subsidized by generous customers because your employer only was willing to give you the bare minimum that the law would allow.

This country works because people are willing to put up with that kindof shit and put in an honest days living.

Those that say the higher minimum wage ends up costing customers more are right because custumers are the ones that leave the tip, not the employer.

If we are to have a minimum wage it should be the same for everyone and all employers should be held to same minimum - not $5.15 for some and $3.25 for waitresses.

Free, please explain your first paragraph. I do not understand how you arrived at that conclusion.

When I left waitress work almost 12 years ago, I was making $2.13 per hour and it was common to bring home a pay check with all zeros after tips were taxed and SS and Medicare were withdrawn. But I still took home more in tips. thanks to the contributions of my wonderful customers., than my unfortunate co-workers, prep, cooks, dishwashers, bus boys, cashiers. I have no complaint about the money I made, which was dependent on the service I was willing to give. I do have a complaint that the people who enabled me to make this money and help support my family made so much less, yet were of just as much value to the company as I was or the manager was. Like I said, my biggest reason for supporting a minimum wage is the way companies undervalue the work of the lowest teir that makes everything possible for the highest teir and gets away with it.

The article with these figures was published Dec. 21 and entitiled “Bush wage plan has catch”

Margie said, It said that Democrats in the Va. House of Delegates and the Va. Senate stated that the raise in the minimum wage would affect 450,000 or 12% of Va. workers.

Here’s a clue: when you raise the minimum wage, you’re going to affect more than just the current minimum wage earners. You’re going to affect everybody in between the current minimum wage and the proposed minimum wage.

It makes sense and is easy to see, and yet Margie missed it. This is how so many political arguments start.

And in all reality, the Democrat proposal to screw with the market is going to affect many more than 450,000 VA workers. It’s going to affect the employers of those workers as well. They weren’t counted in those numbers.

When I left waitress work almost 12 years ago, I was making $2.13 per hour and it was common to bring home a pay check with all zeros after tips were taxed and SS and Medicare were withdrawn.

That is completely unconscionable and it is exactly what you deserve.

But by all means, please do point out how you had no paycheck after you paid for all of your “New Deal” and “Great Society” programs.

...the way companies
undervalue the work of the lowest teir that makes everything possible for the highest teir and gets away with it.

Margie: This is exactly backwards, and is where your Marxist-based thinking breaks down.  The reality is that the “lowest tier” has jobs because of the capital investment and management skills of the highest tier.  The lowest tier is that because they are the one who contribute the least to the overall operation.  They like to think otherwise, but they are wrong.

So according to your right wing propaganda someone,anyone woke up one day and decided to be a low wage worker all his life.

Actually, if you reread what I wrote, I was asking a question, and so no “propaganda” was involved at all.  You must be so emotionally reactive you don’t take the trouble to comprehend what I actually write.  Do you have an answer to my question, as asked?

Well Lik get’s it even if Margie and Freep are unable to.

Margie’s counting people making $7 an hour as minimum wage workers because they’ll get a 15 cent raise in a couple of years.

She’s also counting subminimum wage workers (such as prisoners) which won’t get a raise)

The important question is why are there $7/hour workers.  The answer is that the market works.  People that are worth $7/hour doing jobs that are worth $7/hour make $7/hour. 

If Margie’s view of the world was right they’d be making $5.15 an hour because that’s all employers will pay.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

...the way companies undervalue the work of the lowest teir that makes everything possible for the highest teir and gets away with it.

To amplify Robert’s perspective.  If we raised the minimal wage to $20/hour there would still be the top tier.  They’d find a way to do what they need to do without employing (as many of) the lower tier.

The bottom tier would remain permanently unemployable.  Have you heard of Europe?

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

This statement is pure bullshit. They’d find a way to do what they need to do without employing (as many of) the lower tier.
The bottom tier would remain permanently unemployable.  Have you heard of Europe?
The Whistler on December 27, 2006 at 09:51 am

Yes they would find a way to employ more illegals with the full blessing of the US government,or a wink and a nod.
Whistler, Robert108, rob,etc.etc. next time y’all go to a restaurant look the waiter/waitress in the eye and tell them: they are there because they made poor choises on life, are not deserving of a pay raise,if they can’t afford medical care tuff shit if they get a pay raise the restaurant will employ less workers, and the US economy will suffer irreparable harm.
Finaly tell him/her: You are greedy bastards and deserve my wrath for you are trying to financialy sink this restaurant.Why should you get a pay raise since you are going to spend it on more video games?

On a different note all the doomsday scenarios that were predicted in the past (if the minimum wage was incresed) never materialized.

It is a fact that y’all are opposed to the minimum wage hike due to your own greed,ie don’t want to pay a little bit more for what you are getting.
Stingy scrooges you all are.

Whistler, Robert108, rob,etc.etc. next time y’all go to a restaurant look the waiter/waitress in the eye and tell them: they are there because they made poor choises on life, are not deserving of a pay raise,if they can’t afford medical care tuff shit if they get a pay raise the restaurant will employ less workers, and the US economy will suffer irreparable harm.

Huh? I have an ex-girlfriend who used to make damn good money as a server. She started off making next to nothing, but then excelled in her profession to bigger and better restaurants. She made a few hundred a night and afforded us both the opportunity to invest in college.

So why does everyone pick on the servers? They are paid what they are worth. In many cases, they are paid far more than what they are worth, my ex being a prime example. In some cases obviously, they are paid less. For those who believe that they are paid less than their work’s worth, there is a choice there.

On a different note all the doomsday scenarios that were predicted in the past (if the minimum wage was incresed) never materialized.

Again: check out Europe. Notice that they have unemployment rates that are two to three times the United States. Notice that these unemployment rates (especially for the young) stay at these rates for decades. Then come back and try to spill your little speil.

It is a fact that y’all are opposed to the minimum wage hike due to your own greed,ie don’t want to pay a little bit more for what you are getting.
Stingy scrooges you all are.

No, once again for the slow: the market pays what the work is worth. We don’t want the government to fiddle with the market because every time it does, it distorts the market and causes money to move to where it is treated better. If I have to remind you: it’s a global market and money will flow elsewhere. Need I bring up the manufacturing sector in this country to hammer that point home?

Thanks for not making this emotional and personal though. That’s really mature of you ellinas.

Thanks for pointing that out about servers making very good money (in many cases for not very long shifts).

Heck even Margie admits she made good money in tips that she didn’t need her paycheck (which was confiscated by the government anyway).

But Ellinas who knows next to nothing about anything has yet to catch on.  Any excuse to turn the US into the 3rd world country that his home is.  (Greece’s per capita GDP is half of the United States.)

The only ones who think we need to raise server’s minimum wage are people like freeloader who’s trying to lessen his guilty concience about not tipping.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

The Whistler on December 27, 2006 at 07:55 pm said:But Ellinas who knows next to nothing about anything has yet to catch on.  Any excuse to turn the US into the 3rd world country that his home is.  (Greece’s per capita GDP is half of the United States.)
Greece was my country almost 30 years ago. But since you insist on harping on it explain this. How can a country with half of the US per capita GDP can afford free education (elementary through university) and medical care for everyone?
How could they afford to make you the half civilized niwitt that you are? How generous they are if they shared their ideals about democracy with you?

But since you insist on harping on it explain this. How can a country with half of the US per capita GDP can afford free education (elementary through university) and medical care for everyone?

Thanks for providing the answer.  I thought Christmas was over and here Ellinas is giving out gifts.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Huh? I have an ex-girlfriend who used to make damn good money as a server. She started off making next to nothing, but then excelled in her profession to bigger and better restaurants. She made a few hundred a night and afforded us both the opportunity to invest in college
likwidshoe on December 27, 2006 at 04:10 pm

Damn guy!!! You are not a free marketer you are a freeloader!!!!

FYI: If I encounter any business operation that employs illegals, I cease giving them any of my business, since I have that choice under our economic system.

Thanks for providing the answer.  I thought Christmas was over and here Ellinas is giving out gifts.
The Whistler on December 27, 2006 at 08:45 pm

Whistler I am a giving kind of guy.
Thank you for recognizing it.

Once again all the doomsday scenarios that were predicted in the past (if the minimum wage was increased) never materialized and nothing will happen because of this increase.

Margie you were correct all along.
These guys that presented fancy arguments against the wage increase are full of hot air,and theorists but not pragmatists.
What they preach applies to others only,not themselves.
They are conservativesin the sense that they want to conserve everything for them and are afraid to give because of fear that others will catch up to their living standard.

If Greece is so wonderful, why are you here?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on December 27, 2006 at 10:24 pm asks:If Greece is so wonderful, why are you here?

I answer: Because I love you.

ellinas said, Damn guy!!! You are not a free marketer you are a freeloader!!!!

You could assume that if you wish.

Once again all the doomsday scenarios that were predicted in the past (if the minimum wage was increased) never materialized and nothing will happen because of this increase.

What “doomsday scenarios”? Sounds exciting, so please do tell.

They are conservativesin the sense that they want to conserve everything for them and are afraid to give because of fear that others will catch up to their living standard.

Not true at all.

If it needs pointed out, parts of the world only started becoming rich (for the common man, that is) when they started applying these “conservative” free market principles that you rail against.

Some parts of the world still don’t get that. You’ll notice that these parts of the world often have dirt poor people starving in the streets along with ironic claims of “People’s Republic” and “people’s revolution”. These places generally follow your kind of economic practices.

Lik do you mean those countries which socialize everything until their economy is in ruins.

Then after they destroy the economy they claim that they are giving away health care and education.  If the cost is economic stagnation you can keep it.

Plus I’ll be that the “free” health care and education isn’t worth what they pay for.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

So, E, you admit that Greece is an economic blackhole that you could neither gain an adequate education nor make an adequate living. Thanks for your honesty.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Flawed thinking:

All CEO’s are greedy cut-throats.
No CEO is worth the money he/she is paid.
CEO’s don’t know what hard work is.
Anyone could be a CEO.
CEO’s contribute less to the success of a company than product producing employees.

more:

Manual labor is worth more than leadership.
The harder the physical effort, the more the employee should be paid. 

Some of you upper and middle-income earning liberals ought to apply these ridiculous notions to yourselves.  The fact is there are a lot more people capable of manual labor (most of the population) than there are qualified CEO’s.  In a competitive free market, the best and brightest leadership is absolutely vital.

You notice that the people making the noise on this stuff have absolutely zero credentials to do so.

They should go into business and show us how much they know.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I don’t recall any of the critics of high corporate CEO pay being hired to take the place of those who they criticized.  If any ol’ self-righteous, over-educated liberal could run a major corporate entity successfully, the compensation for doing so wouldn’t be so outrageously high.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

In almost every case, the difference between a successful business and an unsuccessful one is management.  It is very rarely, if ever, labor.  Margies’ original rant here was that the outgoing CEO was incompetent, but the company is still in business, so we might have some cherry-picking going on.

If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on December 29, 2006 at 03:52 pm said: In almost every case, the difference between a successful business and an unsuccessful one is management.

And unsuccessfull managers receive: Pfizer CEO, Hank McKinnell, would receive nearly $198 million in total compensation.

Because:
The company’s share price had declined by nearly 40% during McKinnell’s tenure as Chairman.

If on the other hand the employee that cleans toilets for $5.15 an hour failed to keep the toilets clean would get a : “You are fired”.
Do not be scrooges.
Raise the federal minimum wage.

What does the chairman of Phizer have to do with the minimum wage.  Phizer doesn’t pay the minimum wage.

For all we know the main failing of Phizer was paying their employees too much.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Meanwhile in Great Britain
Minimum wage increased to £5.05
The government says two thirds of minimum wage workers are women.
The minimum wage will rise in October, benefiting more than 1m people, the government has announced.
Adults must be paid at least £5.05 an hour, up from £4.85, while 18 to 21 year olds will be paid £4.25.

The recommendations came from the Low Pay Commission which said the number of jobs had continued to grow since the minimum wage was introduced in 1999.

Businesses wanted it frozen, warning more rises could damage competitiveness but the unions want a £6 rate.

For all you scrooges out there factor in thr exchange rate between the pound and dollar.

Meanwhile per capita earnings in England are about 2/3rds of the US.

I for one am unwilling to take a 33% pay cut to pay for your socialistic ideals.

Way to not answer the question again.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

What does the chairman of Phizer have to do with the minimum wage.  Phizer doesn’t pay the minimum wage. 
The Whistler on December 29, 2006 at 09:52 pm

Not a damn thing Whistler. Not a damn thing.
If you don’t get it I cannot make you understand.

too funny.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

The company’s share price had declined by nearly 40% during McKinnell’s tenure as Chairman.

Ignorance lives again!  A simple stock split would have lowered the per share price by 50%.  Duh.  In case you don’t know it, a stock split is a sign of