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Monday, June 04, 2007

Gitmo Tribunal Drops Charges Against 15 Year Old Canadian

The original article is here. I posted earlier on the pending trial of this youngster, and now it appears as if the tribunal judge in charge has sided with me and what I view as an appropriate application of justice.

GUANTANAMO BAY U.S. NAVAL BASE, Cuba (Reuters) - The military judge presiding at Omar Khadr’s war crimes tribunal dismissed all the charges against the young Canadian on Monday, saying he did not meet the definition of those subject to trial under a new law.

Army Col. Peter Brownback said a military review board had labeled Khadr an “enemy combatant” during a 2004 hearing in Guantanamo.

But the Military Commissions Act adopted by the U.S. Congress in 2006 said only “unlawful enemy combatants” could be tried in the Guantanamo tribunals. Brownback said Khadr did not meet that strict definition.

This was the latest setback for the Bush government’s efforts to put the Guantanamo detainees through some form of judicial process. It was forced to rewrite the rules last year after the U.S. Supreme Court deemed the old tribunals illegal.

Brownback dismissed the charges, but left open the possibility that charges could be refiled if Khadr went back before a review board and was formally classified as an “unlawful enemy combatant.”

Khadr, who was captured in a firefight in Afghanistan at age 15, was accused of killing a U.S. soldier with a grenade and wounding another in a battle at a suspected al Qaeda compound in Afghanistan in 2002.

He was also charged with conspiracy and providing material support for terrorism along murder, attempted murder and spying, for allegedly conducting surveillance of U.S. military convoys in Afghanistan.

I agree with the result, but not the rationale. IMO, even if this young man can be reclassified as an, “unlawful enemy combatant”, he should remain unable to be tried as an adult.
For an individual to be guilty, there must be responsibility for the acts in question. While a 15 year old is able to have causal responsibility (insofar as he is actually the one who committed the crimes), a 15 year old is not old enough to be found morally responsible for their actions to a degree that warrants life in prison, capital punishment, or any other type of punishment beyond juvenile hall or an analogue. Mr. Khadr, in addition only being 15 when he was captured in Afghanistan, was also brainwashed by his jihadist father.

Several of Mr Khadr’s family members have been accused of ties to Islamist extremists. His Egyptian-born father, Ahmad Said al-Khadr, was killed in Pakistan in 2003 alongside senior al-Qaida operatives and Canada is holding Mr Khadr’s brother Abdullah on a US extradition warrant accusing him of supplying weapons to al-Qaida.

If Mr. Khadr had reached the age of 18, widely acknowledged as a legal age of consent and adulthood, when he committed these heinous acts; perhaps his responsibility for the crimes in question would make him more deserving of being tried as an adult, but he was only 15. In conducting these legally ambiguous tribunals that have previously been deemed illegal and modified to conform to law, it is of utmost importance to maintain a coherent and transparent variety of justice. As the world superpower, it is our responsibility to lead by example and trying 15 year olds is not the example we should enact.

Concurrently posted at The Arbuckle Institute

Comments

So, terrorists need only recruit minors, and every thing will be all okydoky?


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 4, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Avatar for FlyOnTheWall

I would think that at 15 he would be, by definition, an unlawful enemy combatant.  Drub pushers do it all the time, use kids because they can largely skate by the legal system. 

I’m really uncomfortable with the lawfare push.  Increasingly, it’s easier and safer for military personell to not take prisoners.  It’s a bad message to send.

FlyOnTheWall on June 4, 2007 at 01:41 pm

If Mr. Khadr had reached the age of 18, widely acknowledged as a legal age of consent and adulthood, when he committed these heinous acts; perhaps his responsibility for the crimes in question would make him more deserving of being tried as an adult, but he was only 15.

Age 9 is the age of consent to be married in Iran, so I think 15 is a little older in their country than you make it out to be.  By 15, you should be old enough to know that Allah wants all the Jews and infidels killed.

The real question that we need the Imams to answer is what is the age of attainment necessary before killing Americans and Jews entitles the boy to virgins in paradise.

Justin B. on June 4, 2007 at 02:33 pm

Khadr, who was captured in a firefight in Afghanistan at age 15, was accused of killing a U.S. soldier with a grenade and wounding another in a battle at a suspected al Qaeda compound in Afghanistan in 2002

If he is old enough to kill, he’s old enough to be tried.
It was so much easier when civilian combatants could just be lined up and executed regardless of their age.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on June 4, 2007 at 04:10 pm

Those were the good old days. wink


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on June 4, 2007 at 04:31 pm

Those were the good old days.

Absolutely.  A lot less terrorism, and fewer terrorists.  We should bring back those good old days.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on June 4, 2007 at 04:37 pm

Wow.
The dissent on this thread has reduced itself to the endorsement of mass murder.

Let me just say that when someone is guilty they have a special sense of ownership of the act committed. They did it, they meant to do it, they understood the morality of it and the potential results, and so forth. People who are mentally dysfunctional are often given a leniency on account of the fact that they lack a certain type of ownership over their actions that sane people have. As it is with minors, people who are not ‘of legal age’. They do not own their acts in a rigid legal manner.
Granted many youngsters are used for exactly that reason, but that is just it - they are used. They do not have the appropriate ownership of the acts and understanding of the results to be found guilty in a true, non-question begging manner that, IMO, is more consistent with ‘justice’, however quaint that might sound.
The tribunal in Guantanamo is not the battlefield. Let us also keep that in mind.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 4, 2007 at 08:35 pm

The tribunal in Guantanamo is not the battlefield. Let us also keep that in mind.

Fair enough.  But it ain’t no US criminal court either… nor should it be.  I fully expect to see this decision overturned on appeal.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 4, 2007 at 09:38 pm

The dissent on this thread has reduced itself to the endorsement of mass murder

Nice distortion,sparkie.  Since when is executing a killer mass murder.  You might sing another song if the soldier killed was your brother or your father.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on June 4, 2007 at 10:03 pm

spark, this fukbag knew exactly what he was doing. He is entirely unrepentant and continues to declare his right to kill ALL non-muslims.

The person who should be on trial is the stupid assed moron officer that ordered these mutherfukers be captured instead of killed.

There is absolutely no possibilty these piece3s of shit can be turned into real human beings, and to attempt to do so is insanity. And it is this stupidity that will have us all on our knees and women living as slaves.

Good job!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2007 at 03:49 am

Oh, and this fukbags parents should be standing on that gallows with that moron officer. They taught their darling child all this shit AND sent him to join the Taleban in Jihad against all humanity.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2007 at 03:54 am

I would recommend to all you children killers out there a quick read of a book entitled Long Way Gone, the true story of a child soldier in Africa.  There are over 250,000 child soldiers in Africa right now. It is a gut wrenching read of what adults do to children to get them to kill and kill they do. 

I dare you to read the entire thing.

Puzzlefeet on June 5, 2007 at 04:56 am

Already have, sweetheart. Khadr was not forced to do anything. Your heartstring yanking anology fails.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2007 at 05:42 am

It was so much easier when civilian combatants could just be lined up and executed regardless of their age.—Docdave

You, Robert108 and 2Hotel9 sound just plain evil.

The person who should be on trial is the stupid assed moron officer that ordered these mutherfukers be captured instead of killed.—2Hotel9

I guess 2Hotel9 didn’t get his fill executing (and raping) civilians when he served in Central America.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on June 5, 2007 at 06:06 am

...the “true” story of a child soldier in Africa.

No self-serving agenda there.  /sarcasm


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on June 5, 2007 at 06:15 am

2H9/r108/DD
Look, if soldiers kill other soldiers on a battlefield, that is one thing. If they give up, white flag, whatever… or are captured alive… they should not be killed any more than one of our captured soldiers should be killed after being captured. Child warriors are problematic. 2H9 is right, the kid did know what he was doing. Unfortunately his entire moral compass and ontology were intentionally distorted by the hatemongers and nutcases that raised him. I feel this is neither something he can be held responsible for nor something he has had time to reflect on and reject.
Also, anyone familiar with my comments knows that I feel society is rational to protect itself from people who can’t be considered guilty in a rigid manner, yet pose a serious risk. We don’t just let the insane murderers go. People with contagious viruses, despite not being guilty, are retained and isolated from other people because of the risks they pose. My main argument is that this kid should be kept away from society until he is deemed less of a risk.
Also notice that none of the responses to my comments talked about the legal age, guilt, responsibility, or any of the legal or judicial aspects of the case. It was emotional puff (sorry 2H9 but that’s what it was) trying to get us to rationalize killing more people who are in a non-threatening position (white flag, captured and disarmed) so we don’t have to deal with the ethical or legal issues that arise. Yea, there’s going to be stuff that we need to think about, bummer. Let’s concentrate on what the goal is, protecting society and the individual and common good, and go from there.
AV, I don’t think you know the details of 2H9’s time in Central America… so c’mon. We all know he served his country with pride and was probably damn good at whatever he was doing.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 06:43 am

But it ain’t no US criminal court either… nor should it be.

I agree. And I’m sure that all you UN haters understand pretty clearly what a farce those tribunals are. There is neither legitimacy, legality, nor authority involved in even a meek way. What body gives the court its power? If its the US and our constitution, then rules apply. If not, its a bullshit farce. IMO, its a farce. POWs get jailed until the war is over and then they get released to go back to their wifey that some US soldier has been busy impregnating.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 06:48 am

sparkless and puzzled one,

As usual, the point seems to be beyond your grasp.

The charges were set aside not due to the age of the accused.  The court held that since the defendant had NOT been adjudged an illegal combatant, charges could not be brought for acts preceding capture until the cessation of hostilities in accordance with Geneva III.

Guess we’ll just have to hang onto him until the cessation of hostilities.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 06:55 am
Proof
Proof
12823 comments
Send a private message

they get released to go back to their wifey that some US soldier has been busy impregnating.

Got some data to back up that scummy remark?


Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!


Proof on June 5, 2007 at 06:56 am

RG

Guess we’ll just have to hang onto him until the cessation of hostilities.

I agree and when I agree with Rodney I become very nervous.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on June 5, 2007 at 07:05 am

AV:TFR, got any photos of all that? I would love a snapshot of my handiwork.

Terrorists are not soldiers. Period. Brigands/Bandits as defined by the International Laws on Warfare. The act of targeting children and women compounds their crimes against humanity. They do not fight against soldiers. They murder their own population in order to force them into submission. The only time they engage soldiers is when those troops run them to ground and they have no choice.

No quarter asked, none given. They proclaim to all the world that they wish to die for their God. It is incumbent upon us to assist them in attaining this goal.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2007 at 07:06 am

Oh, and he ain’t 15.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 5, 2007 at 07:08 am

2H9
The kid was 15 when he was wounded and captured in Afghanistan. I know he’s not 15 now. Its besides the point.

Proof

they get released to go back to their wifey that some US soldier has been busy impregnating.

Got some data to back up that scummy remark?

dude. it was a joke. not that its false, go to japan and germany and ask around about US daddies. I’m sure there’s plenty. Vietnam too.

Also, I think one of the points here is that Canada allows al Qaeda to prance around practicing and spreading this crap and it ends up in our lap. They should work on that. Toronto has a little of everything… and the Canadians blame all the Islamic extremism and guns on us. Poor mentality if you are interested in actually taking steps to curb these risks.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 07:17 am

sparkless,

In re your:

dude. it was a joke.

The only joke in this thread is you.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 07:24 am
Proof
Proof
12823 comments
Send a private message

it was a joke.

Ah! Since there is a meme in the MSM that our servicemen are criminals and rapists, possibly not the best material to joke about…


Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!


Proof on June 5, 2007 at 07:29 am

Proof
You, quite simply, cannot deny the fact that American servicemen often leave progeny behind after wars end. I said nothing about rape and r108 and docdave are the ones talking about murder. Quit being uppity. I don’t work for the MSM.
Rodney Graves
Sniping as usual. Take issue with my stances… calling me a joke in response to my stated positions, without explaining why, is what trolls do, troll.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 11:00 am
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12823 comments
Send a private message

You, quite simply, cannot deny the fact that American servicemen often leave progeny behind after wars end.

I do not deny it. However, your quote made it sound as if every POW was released to a wife pregnant by a child not his own. It was, at the least, over the top.

POWs get jailed until the war is over and then they get released to go back to their wifey that some US soldier has been busy impregnating.

I repeat. It was a scummy comment. Keep your day job!



Barack Obama: All hat and no cattle since 1997!


Proof on June 5, 2007 at 11:11 am

Guess we’ll just have to hang onto him until the cessation of hostilities.

Illegal combatants are not entitled to freedom at the cessation of hostilities.  Geneva only applies to legal combatants fighting in uniform for government forces that are party to Geneva.

These folks are not entitled to a tribunal or even a trial.  We are just being nice in considering doing either.  We can hold them until they rot in a cell and there is no need, even if hostilities end, to ever release them.  Maybe we can’t kill them, but they don’t have habeus corpus rights either.

Question is--when do we get a President that wants to concern him/herself with the rights of enemy illegal combatant terrorists?  Perhaps the Hillary would pardon them, but it will be difficult for their families to send the requisite funds to Clinton relatives in order to obtain the pardons.

Justin B. on June 5, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Above, Puzzlefeet has expressed a real empathy and concern for the poor, misguided young man who has demonstrated an interest in killing Americans.

If Mr. Khadar is released from custody, perhaps it could be arranged that he could live with her… a sort of halfway house arrangement.  After all, those on the Left are also on record as opposing the return of such detainees to their home country for fear of rendition.

How about it, Puzzle?  Got a spare bedroom for the young, misunderstood, Muslim murderer?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 5, 2007 at 12:37 pm

sparkless,

The response your scurrilous comment deserves is not deliverable via this media, which is a great pity.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 01:14 pm

Justin,

Hanging “...onto them until the cessation of hostilities.” does not mean that they will released on their own recognizance at that time.  Post cessation is also the traditional period for war crimes trials.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 02:21 pm

AV

One who would accuse others of rape and murder without evidence can best serve humanity as fertilizer.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 02:28 pm

Justin
Its my understanding that this guy was fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan. He is Canadian, but someone who is Lebanese, for example, can fight for the US in a war before they become a citizen. Does that make them an illegal combatant?
I have read Just and Unjust Wars, which appears to be the source of your ‘nationals only in uniform are legal’ position. I believe it is presented in the text as fighters, identifiable as such, who have popular support in said region - they are then ‘justified’ as we have been eluding to. I think it is an interesting dilemma. Are the Chechen rebels unlawful combatants? They wear fatigues and have popular support in their region? I think there is a strong argument that no, the Chechen rebels are clearly terrorists. They target children and hospitals. This Canadian lad, picked up fighting for the Taliban, was targeting US forces in as conventional a form a warfare as modernity provides us.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 02:48 pm

sparkless,

Geneva III Article Four, for what must be the hundredth time or so, is THE international standard.

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil[sic] the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. 

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

(1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

(2) The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties. 

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.

Try reading it this time, paying particular attention to (2) (a) - (c).


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 02:56 pm

Randy Grapes
Perhaps the problem is that we are waging a war against ‘terror’. Seems immediately problematic and not conforming to the conventions to me. Maybe we should revise our rhetoric and not let it spill over into legal considerations.

Out of beer
Sparkie Arbuckle


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 5, 2007 at 03:02 pm

B1, sometimes you are so silly.  My point was clear,I thought, buy leave it to you to say that I am supporting the 15 year old.  What I said was in response to DocDave and Justin.  But leave it you to take it to the extreme as usual.

Puzzlefeet on June 5, 2007 at 05:13 pm

Puzzle,

I take it then that you won’t be offering the poor, misguided Muslim murderer anything more substantive than your understanding and best wishes?

How terribly liberal of you.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 5, 2007 at 05:21 pm

sparkless,

When have you not been more than a few beers short of a sixpack?

As regards the laws of warfare, we are observing them.  The terrorists are not.  Enforcing the consequences for waging war without observing the customary laws thereof is the logical and civilized outcome which you can’t seem to get your ill-educated tiny intellect around.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 5, 2007 at 05:29 pm

B1, have you been taking your silly pills again? Overdosing is not a good thing.

Puzzlefeet on June 5, 2007 at 05:31 pm

Puzzle,

You are the one who addressed those of us who wished to see Mr. Khadr held to account for the murder he committed “child killers.” And now you call me silly for suggesting that you liberals ought to offer something more substantive to back up your “convictions” than teary-eyed, Clinton-esque empathy?

Come on… surely you can do better than this.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 5, 2007 at 06:04 pm

No B1 you wanted me to agree with your silly suggestion.

Puzzlefeet on June 5, 2007 at 06:21 pm

Puzzle,

It’s called sarcasm, and I am guilty on occasion of not notating it as such but instead assuming that the intended reader/victim is sufficiently astute to recognize my meaning without overt guidance.  My bad.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 5, 2007 at 06:58 pm

As regards the laws of warfare, we are observing them.—Randy Grapes

Who is this we? Aren’t you merely a chickenhawk?

At 15, my beliefs certainly weren’t set in stone, so I doubt Khadr’s were too. There may have been hope for this kid then, but now, hanging out in Gitmo for years, with murderers and fundamentalists, isn’t going to help him develop into a well-rounded individual. My brother and his girlfriend run a foster home, and they would be the type of people who could try to help this kid (assuming Khadr speaks English, since he is Canadian), but it’s a little too late now.

(Note to self: Stop giving away personal information, since being outed as the nutter called `Anarchist Vegetarian’ could be a little embarrassing, and affect my future job prospects too.)


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on June 5, 2007 at 11:37 pm

When he murdered his first victim he was gone. Period. He danced and cried out “AllahuAkbar” and exulted in the blood of the innocent. Every time he speaks he proclaims his intention to kill infidels in the name of his God. His parents proudly announce to the world that their son is a Holy Warrior and has killed infidels with their hearty approval. And you want to bow down and submit at his feet.You are a sick, stupid fuk.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 6, 2007 at 03:55 am

And spark, you have stimulated debate. And I do not buy for one single second that you actually believe this murdering piece of crap should be allowed to continue to live. You did bring out the leftards, though.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on June 6, 2007 at 03:57 am

vegetable matter,

Item the first, remedial civics: Ours is a nation by, for, and of the people.  We all share responsibility for the actions, and inactions, of our government.

Item the second, your chicken hawk slur.  Get back to us when you have a DD-214.  Until then, you are just a chicken chicken.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2007 at 06:08 am

Sparkey said

Maybe we should revise our rhetoric and not let it spill over into legal considerations.

So true because if the enemy in this war is terror rather than a traditional nation state then pretty much anyone with the inclination can fight for the other side and fall within Geneva IMO.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on June 6, 2007 at 06:30 am

When he murdered his first victim he was gone.—2Hotel9 (Emphasis mine)

So soldiers (since he was judged an `enemy combatant’wink that kill enemy soldiers in war are murderers? I completely agree. And since the war with Afghanistan was concluded years ago, his current detention is illegal.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on June 6, 2007 at 06:52 am

So true because if the enemy in this war is terror rather than a traditional nation state then pretty much anyone with the inclination can fight for the other side and fall within Geneva IMO.

Uniformed combatant”.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on June 6, 2007 at 06:58 am

vegetable matter,

At the very grave risk of spreading pearls of wisdom before a swine of the unthinking uneducated left, the legal issue here is entirely a subset of status as a lawful combatant or an un-lawful combatant.  Lawful combatants kill, but do not murder.  Un-lawful combatants murder whenever they kill.

Here endeth the lesson, chicken shit.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2007 at 07:10 am

AV,

Perhaps a fresh voice would be helpful to you.  If the little f**ker had worn a uniform or other insignia which identified him as being part of the official Afghan armed forces, then he would have been classified as a POW according to the Geneva Convention.

If you are going to berate the Bush administration for not adhering to the Geneva Conventions regarding captives and detainees, it would probably be a good idea if you knew something about those same Geneva Conventions.  Save yourself the embarrassment


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 6, 2007 at 07:10 am

Grapes, I am aware that for a killing to be a murder, it has to be unlawful. I was simply playing on the negative connotations of the word murder, and linking that with soldiers. (Since soldiers are merely the gullible thugs employed to protect/expand a nation-states empire.)

Bat One, I agree the `little f**ker’ should have worn a uniform, but would that have reduced his illegal detention at the Gitmo Holiday Resort? Also, the Geneva Convention has clauses which allows some of those without uniforms to still be classed as enemy combatants, as this case shows.


“All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.”
“Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” —George Orwell

Angry Vertebrate on June 6, 2007 at 07:27 am

vegetable matter wrote:

I am aware that for a killing to be a murder, it has to be unlawful.

You hid that knowledge quite effectively then.

I was simply playing on the negative connotations of the word murder, and linking that with soldiers. (Since soldiers are merely the gullible thugs employed to protect/expand a nation-states empire.)

You’ll have a right to air such an opinion when you produce a DD-214.  So where is it, chicken scat?


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2007 at 07:49 am

”Uniformed combatant”.
robert108 on June 6, 2007 at 06:58

Not having my Conventions handy, is “uniformed” defined anywhere? This is admittedly pretty arcane but it’s of some academic interest...to me at least.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on June 6, 2007 at 08:11 am

Mike,

The relevant section of Geneva III is posted above.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2007 at 08:20 am

Not having my Conventions handy, is “uniformed” defined anywhere? This is admittedly pretty arcane but it’s of some academic interest...to me at least.

Soldiers wearing uniforms is “pretty arcane”?  What color is the sky in your world, Mike?


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on June 6, 2007 at 08:30 am

Thanks RG.

r108...the uniforms aren’t arcane, the discussion of them is.


"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

MikeAdamson on June 6, 2007 at 08:32 am

r108...the uniforms aren’t arcane, the discussion of them is.

Hardly.  It’s the deciding factor in this case.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on June 6, 2007 at 08:39 am

There is another aspect to this subject that has not been touched.

Centuries ago, despite its brutal nature, Islam and the Muslim world were also justifiably renown for educational achievement and learning.  Now, it is the Western civilization so despised by the radical Islamists, and in particular the US, that accumulates knowledge of science and mathematics at near light speed, while the Muslim world festers with illiteracy, poverty and despair.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on June 6, 2007 at 02:53 pm

I’m with Mike. If we have a war on terror, it is unconventional from the get go. Its rhetorical more than anything. The Geneva Conventions probably aren’t set up to accommodate wars against things that bring about certain emotional states, like ‘terror’.

That said, if the deciding factor is whether or not the kid is in uniform, that’s stupid. The Taliban didn’t even have a uniform. So what? They can’t fight legally to defend Afghanistan? I don’t buy it.

Furthermore, I want to hear an explanation from all the UN dissers, all of you, why and how these tribunals have one iota of authority and where, pray tell, it is derived from. There is all this ‘justice’ talk and its nothing but more rhetoric bullshit. Its the crumbling of the various protocols that make our country the best. Undermine them, slowly, one by one… and soon we won’t be the best and you’ll have yourselves to thank for being apologists for law breakers and constitution benders. Gross.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 6, 2007 at 02:54 pm

Bat1

There is another aspect to this subject that has not been touched.

Respectfully, what the eff does that have to do with this?

Also, you left out the part about how the Muslims would have had just as much knowhow and whatnot as the Europeans, if only the Europeans weren’t out burning books and killing people like the Muslims are now. Maybe sometime in like 600 years the roles will switch again.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on June 6, 2007 at 02:58 pm

sparkless,

I see you still have not done your remedial reading, even though that reading was provided to you in this thread.

Why should we pay any attention to a chicken scat git who doesn’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to the Customary Laws of Warfare as they pertain to any form of warfare?


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on June 6, 2007 at 03:00 pm
Bat One
Bat One
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