Say Anything Blog

Public housing, taken to the nth degree.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Wow, facilities like that should really discourage criminals.

Excuse me while I hold up a conveience store so I can get arrested and go to the Cook County country club.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Is that a barred lanai?

What’s the difference?

It’s clean.
There is more natural light coming in.
It’s new.

It’s still a jail. It’s not that different from all of the rest once you take away the built in grim of the other ones.

Wow, for people who supposedly are all about “facts” it’s amazing that none of you looked into the veracity of this report.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/prison.asp

You should probably look into things before posting a story that will make you look like an idiot. Not that I’m perfect, but it didn’t take me long to find the error here.

snopes is a leftie smear site.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

this is my first exposure to snopes.com. i don’t know if it is a ‘lefty smear site’ or not. if this jail is in austria and not chicago as neiman suggests then it doesn’t matter if snopes is left wing or not.

i tend to think it is not in the usa as i have never seen a basketball court with a herringbone design on the floor. but then i’ve haven’t seen every basketball court in the us.

i also noticed that neiman didn’t link to where he got these photos. if you click on the image it takes you to tinypic.com where i did indeed find the photos. however, there is no commentary about the photos, just the image, no identifiers, even as to who took the photos.

so, am i to take this neiman’s word this is from chicago. if they were, i’d think there would be some sort of link.

so i decided to go to the google and i found this photo of cook county jail
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25736313/

i know i will hear ‘you picked the county jail, not the city jail’.

jails are run by the county whereas the city will just have holding cells.

now i must wonder, was neiman so easily fooled or is this just a lie?

and how many on this site were pulled into this subterfuge?

and how many on this site were pulled into this subterfuge?

I doubt it was subterfuge.

Neiman just learned a lesson in checking sources is all.

I got this from a close friend as an email, I had no reason to suspect it was a false report. I didn’t check it our because there was no motive for my friend to lie about it, I suppose he got taken in as well. It was an honest mistake.

Nonetheless, pretty nice jail!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I got this from a close friend as an email, I had no reason to suspect it was a false report.

Chain e-mails always morph.

Google searching a chain e-mail phrase usually turns up a Snopes post explaining the origin of the e-mail, the changes, and the veracity of the information. Snopes is a pretty good source for that kind of thing.

Now you know.

robert108:

For a man who is all about facts you can surely provide us some evidence to support your claim that “snopes is a leftie smear site.” Not that I’ saying they’re perfect or should be blindly trusted, because I don’t think anybody should be blindly trusted. But, they do post the sources for their articles which means you can look into things yourself and decide if the sources are credible or not. I honestly haven’t noticed any kind of a liberal bias on their website but if you can prove otherwise go right ahead.

Here’s the deal: I don’t care where this “jail” is located.  It illustrates a leftie sensibility about the treatment of criminals that is just wrong, and picking the nit about its location and then using that to invalidate the entire concept of a country club jail is a typical leftie tactic, IMO.
I don’t care whose tax money was wasted on this debacle, it’s wrong.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108:

I wasn’t trying to invalidate the idea that a country club jail is wrong and in re-reading the Snopes article, I don’t believe they were trying to either. They simply pointed out that the prison is located in Austria and not America. There was really no opinion offered as to whether the prison being so plush is right or wrong.

I applaud Neiman for responding in humility when it was shown that this was not a prison in Cook County.

So, robert108, you need to provide some evidence to show that Snopes was trying to justify the existence of such a nice facility or rectract your claim that they are a “lefty smear site.” It’s funny to me how nobody else on SayAnything thought that myself or Snopes were trying to engage in “leftie tactics” by simply pointing out the appropriate location of the jail. Did you actually read the article I linked?

MidwestMan, Do not hold your breath for too long.

Again, snopes engaged in nitpicking to distract from the real message, which is the waste of taxpayer money on such country club jails.  That part wasn’t invalidated, or even dealt with.  They just claimed to refute something because of a different location.
I already ‘splained this to you.
To me, the important point is the waste of taxpayer money to coddle criminals, which is generally an aspect of leftieism.  The location doesn’t change that.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

How ‘bout providing a nice working enviroment for those working in jails, and prisons?

Robert108: I sense you are wasting your time here, you are talking but some people refuse to listen.

I regret I did not check it with the holy see of Snopes, it weakened my position considerably.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Snopes isn’t a leftie site. They debunk chain e-mails, urban legends, etc. on both sides of the aisle. In fact, most of their site is dedicated to topics that aren’t related to politics at all. I’d really love to hear r108’s explanation of why it is a leftie site.

I can already imagine the rationalization: “Well a few weeks ago I posted a list with several factual mistakes and Ken responded by linking to a Snopes article. We all know, despite his conservative beliefs, Ken is really just a leftie masquerading as a conservaive. Thus we can conclude that Snopes is just another leftie smear factory.”

European values. Jail is punishment, tha is nicer than most college campuses.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

How ‘bout providing a nice working enviroment for those working in jails, and prisons?

Yes, let’s waste taxpayer money getting nicer prisoners.
/sarcasm

Save America; boycott the MSM.

Nice imagination, Ken, but I don’t really care if you agree with me or not.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

Yes, let’s waste taxpayer money getting nicer prisoners.
/sarcasm
robert108 on July 20, 2008 at 12:50 pm

I agree with you. /sarcasm

e moron: If you ever had any knowledge of the working conditions of prison guards, you wouldn’t have made such an ignorant statement.  Their working conditions are entirely determined by the prisoners they guard, not the surroundings.  Duh.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108:

The point of Snopes, in case you are unaware, is to address email and internet rumors and find out if there is any truth to the claim or not. The original posting, as listed on Snopes.com, stated that the picture was a “new Cook County Correctional Center in Chicago, Illinois.” Snopes simply provided evidence that this prison was not located in Chicago, Illinois. As you stated earlier, regardless of the location, the existence of such a fancy prison is wrong. Thus, we can conclude that there is no connection between the moral/ethical justification of the existence of such a prison and the location of said prison. What you are saying is that because they didn’t offer their opinion as to whether the prison should exist, they are taking a lefty stance. 

Is it really so dangerous that they allow the reader to draw their own conclusions after presenting the facts? Snopes does not intend to offer political interpretations of email rumors. I think such a topic is more appropriate for a political blog like SayAnything.

In fact, here are many examples of Snopes refuting bogus claims about President Bush:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.asp
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/bush.asp
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/bibleverse.asp

There are many more examples than this. The problem is that you are trying to indict Snopes because they did not offer a decidedly political opinion about whether a nice prison should exist. The point is they were never trying to engage in that argument so there’s no reason to imply that they are using lefty tactics.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/medicare.asp

If you ever had any knowledge of the working conditions of prison guards, you wouldn’t have made such an ignorant statement.  Their working conditions are entirely determined by the prisoners they guard, not the surroundings.

The moral of prisoners is actually a cost saving measure.  Keeping prisoners in environments where they have distractions and are happier actually saves money.

You have less problems so you need fewer prison guards. 

Prisoners are able to be paroled earlier saving the cost of incarceration.

Rehabilitation is more successful lowering the rate of recidivism, which lowers the amount of prisoners, saving money.

Drug and alcohol counseling is more successful, which gives a better chance that prisoners will be more successful when they leave.

Training programs are more successful which gives a better chance that prisoners will be productive when they leave.

I don’t know if this prison is cost effective or not, but neither do you.  It’s not as black and white as you want to make it. 

If this community wants to have a different approach to incarceration, who are you to argue?

The US incarcerates a higher percentage of it’s population than any other country in the world.  Maybe we should try different approaches.

The US incarcerates a higher percentage of it’s population than any other country in the world. Maybe we should try different approaches.

Typical leftie wrong thinking, on all counts:
First, you treat vicious criminals as if they were victims of an unfeeling society, when in reality they are people who have chosen to violate the rights of others for their own gain.  Most of them are beyond rehabilitation, especially the ones who choose violence, and will always be a danger to those of us who don’t choose to be violent criminals.
Second, the reason we have more incarceration is because we are a free society, and people have the choice to make mistakes.  It’s part of the price we pay for freedom.  In a totalitarian society, govt repression results in less outward appearance of criminality, but those bad choices manifest in other ways.  The old Soviet Union had a massive alcoholism problem, for instance.  Despite what Marx believed, you can’t change human nature with totalitarian govt.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

MM: It’s the old leftie tactic of guilt by association; if a Republican does that, you squeal “McCarthyism!!!”, but when snopes does it, you think it really means something.  I repeat, this is meaningless nitpicking in order to invalidate a real concern.
This seems to be a specialty of snopes.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

I know you hate research, but if you would have done any, you would know that this facility does not house “vicious” criminals.  They are only eligible if they have a sentence less than 18 months.

The most expensive part of incarceration is recidivism.  If a facility like this cuts down on that, than it might actually save money.

If a community wants to try this approach, why should they not be able to?

The most expensive part of incarceration is recidivism.

Wrong.  Recidivism is a personal choice.  It is a consequence of that choice, not an artifact of incarceration. 

I know you hate research…

You know nothing.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108:

I am not a liberal, nor did I ever claim to be a liberal. You are just being beyond ridiculous. A person sent in the email asking whether or not the prison was really in Cook County, Illinois and they verified that it wasn’t. That was really the only question. By your “logic”, I could accuse Snopes of being conservative because they addressed accusations against Bush and proved that they were false, but ignored the central premise of the rumor, namely that Bush is a bad president. Because they did not offer their opinion after disproving accusations against Bush, they were essentially invalidating the claim that Bush is a bad president. This is a typical right-wing tactic of guilt by association. They are implying that Bush must be a good president since a degrading rumor about him has been shown to be false.

By the way, here’s an article from the National Review about Snopes.com. Seems that they don’t share your opinion that it is a “lefty smear site.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/seipp/seipp200407210830.asp

Recidivism is a personal choice.  It is a consequence of that choice, not an artifact of incarceration.

So?

If it is possible to make it less likely that somebody will make that choice it saves money.

If this prison actually saves the taxpayers money would it still be wrong?

Is your argument economic or moral?

If it is possible to make it less likely that somebody will make that choice it saves money.

“If” is the key word here.  Before confiscating and spending any taxpayer money, the cost/benefit calculation must be done, and then submitted to the voters.  I doubt that was done in this case.

My argument is about the actual outcome.  I don’t think coddling criminals is the way to protect society.
I care more about the non-criminals than I do about the criminals.  The more severe the penalty, the less attractive a life of crime for those who are “on the fence”; it makes no difference to those who have already chosen to be criminals, and so they are not affected either way.  I can’t see how “pleasant prisons” can possibly decrease crime, for either group.
I think your entire reasoning process here is based on the false leftie concept that criminals are “victims of society”, which is a corollary of the Marxist “class struggle” bullshit.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

...Bush is a bad president.

He’s certainly been “bad” for you lefties…

Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108:

Are you serious? You really think I’m a lefty? How many times do I have to say I’m not a lefty? I have no idea how anyone can communicate with you. I was being sarcastic and trying to show that a liberal could follow the same “logic” you were using and therefore accuse Snopes of being conservative. I was not saying that “Bush is a bad president” but merely showing how faulty your line of reasoning was. You need help. You obviously have a persecution complex.

You need help.

Here’s some help for you: If you really were being sarcastic(and not just covering for your error), use a /sarcasm tag, then everything will be clear.  It’s not anybody’s job to read your mind.

As I ‘splained to someone else: I don’t give a crap how you vote; you use the same tactics of argumentation as lefties do.  I call ‘em as I experience ‘em.
If you really care so much about what I think of you, clean up your act.

Save America; boycott the MSM.

Try being locked up in this prison for a while. See how you do in there.

Homeless people should have it so good

A homeless person can go where they want to go, eat what they can afford, fuck, drink, do drugs, get a job and make a life.
What a stupid thing to say

Again, snopes engaged in nitpicking to distract from the real message, which is the waste of taxpayer money on such country club jails.  That part wasn’t invalidated, or even dealt with.  They just claimed to refute something because of a different location.
I already ‘splained this to you.
To me, the important point is the waste of taxpayer money to coddle criminals, which is generally an aspect of leftieism.  The location doesn’t change that.

I just wanted to give my two cents.

@robert108, you’re a moron.

Now that that’s out of the way, snopes purpose is to debunk myths, not to pick a side on a political issue. The “real message” as you see it, robert108, was not a concern for snopes because, again, they don’t deal in politics, they debunk myths\rumors. Snopes could very well agree that having such a “plush” prison\jail is wrong and unconducive to providing a successful “correction” in the incarcerated persons behavior....thus it would not be considered a myth. But again stating one way or the other is pushing politics, which is not what snopes is about.

You argue\debate like a girl robert108. Several times you changed focus from snope’s political views, to MidWestMan’s political views. Each time you countered you would switch and ignore the counter as if it didn’t happen. That’s called circle arguing and that’s what girls (and people who don’t like to fix the problem) do.

The last few responses you gave were full of facts, but you only replied to small excerpts of MidWestMan’s comments because you didn’t want to face the fact that you’ve been being ignorant.

Understandable that you’d not want to admit your ignorance, but if you’re not man enough to do so, you should stop replying.

Back to the topic of my comments; Snopes is managed by people with more than one policital view, and conclusions made by the site are up for change if sources\proof are provided. There was no nitpicking involved, just facts related to debunking the myth\rumor of the prison being in Illinois. (because if it were, i have no doubt where crime would increase).

Snopes.com is not a lefty smear site. But from the sounds of it, i think you’d be able to upkeep a pretty “good” (full of content, not nessarily full of facts or truth) smear site yourself.

---off topic---
I would like to see some proof on what it takes for a prisoner to qualify for this facility.