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Wednesday, August 01, 2007

Easy Money II

Scholarship suggests that the Framers intended to prohibit paper money. Any judge who thought today he would go back to the original intent really ought to be accompanied by a guardian rather than be sitting on a bench.

- Conservative jurist extraordinaire Robert Bork

The second argument advanced by those, like Ron Paul, opposed to the Federal Reserve System and our current FRN paper currency, is that the system engenders inflation.  Since 1913, when Congress created the Fed, the US dollar has lost 97% of its “buying power” the argument goes.  A devastating indictment on the surface… until you realize that the FRB were not open for business until late November of 1914, and that even at that, the rate of inflation works out to around 3% per year.  Nor is the Federal Reserve responsible for much of that amount either.  In fact, it wasn’t until the late 1990s that the Fed was free of the liberal Keynesian Congressional mandates that forced Fed policy makers not to attack inflation directly.

From Wikipedia:

The Employment Act of 1946 was a definitive attempt by the federal government to develop macroeconomic policy. Future economic policy was allowed to grow beyond the constitutionally defined realm of monetary and trade control and into the national economy at-large… (T)he Act encourages the federal government to “promote maximum employment, production, and purchasing power.

Mindful of the 20% unemployment of the pre-WWII Great Depression and concerned with all the GIs returning to the workforce, Congress tasked the Fed with the goal of “full employment.”

In 1978, in the midst of the Carter economic debacle and fearful of the voters, Keynesian liberals in Congress passed the Humphrey-Hawkins Full Employment and Balanced Growth Act,

A bill to establish and translate into practical reality the right of all adult Americans able, willing, and seeking to work to full opportunity for useful paid employment at fair rates of compensation; to combine full employment, production, and purchasing power goals with proper attention to balanced growth and national priorities; to mandate such national economic policies and programs as are necessary to achieve full employment, production, and purchasing power; to restrain inflation; and to provide explicit machinery for the development and implementation of such economic policies and programs.

The head nod to restraining inflation was of little consequence.  Amendments offered that called for a balanced federal budget, tax cuts for businesses to stir growth and employment, and one to reduce inflation to 3% within 5 years were all defeated.  Liberals have never been very concerned with inflation anyway, and Keynesian economics has never offered much in the way of policies to contain it, as inflation allows them to repay their deficit spending with cheaper future dollars.

Fact is, the Fed was not really intended to deal with inflation at all… but with DEFLATION instead.

The Federal Reserve System was created in response to the Panic of 1907, which, with the 3 other such panics that preceded it since 1870 were the result of deflation which exacerbated the periodic “runs” on local banks, which had no cash on hand to satisfy anxious depositors… the very same combination (compliments of an ignorant NY FRB) which turned just such a run in New York into the Great Depression of the 1930s.  Not enough money in circulation, and no mandated reserves available to quell the panic.

It was deflation that precipitated these panics, resulting in the “Free Silver” movement, the rise of the “Progressives” and William Jennings Bryant. 

In fact the average annualized rate of “inflation” from 1865 to 1915 is a deflationary -0.98%!  While America grew, and its economic output grew, haltingly, there simply was not enough currency available to fully accommodate the growth.

None of this is to say that a 3% rate of inflation ought to be the de facto norm.  But since WWII successive Democrat administrations have fostered increased inflation and successive Republicans have had to contend with the consequences.  And it is only since the expiration of Humphrey-Hawkins that the Fed has been allowed to focus on inflation, rather than trying to balance monetary policy with more political concerns such as a full employment mandate.

Thanks largely to the work of Milton Friedman, both the Fed and the public understand that inflation, and deflation, are both questions of monetary supply growth.  As Chairman Bernanke noted sardonically on the occasion of Friedman’s 90th birthday,

Regarding the Great Depression. You were right… we did it. We’re very sorry.

To suggest that we dissolve the Federal Reserve System is simply silly.  To do so with no in depth discussion of the consequences, international and domestic, and with no detailed alternative suggestion is simply irresponsible.  Most of us would prefer a stable 2.5 to 3% inflation rate over the prior roller coaster of inflation and deflation.

Comments

Avatar for dph

Okay, let’s see if we can work through the Constitutional issue first.

I hope that we can agree that the US Constitution was intended by the framers to be the foundation of our system of governance, the supreme law of the land. As such, each phrase, each word was debated and carefully considered before inclusion. We, the people, as citizens and members of this society agree to be bound by its laws because we believe it to be in our best interests. To “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.” We believe we have a common, clearly understood agreement for working together towards those noble ends.

So, if we accept this premise, we must accept that we have a document that quite literally says what it means and means what it says. To do otherwise, is to open everything to interpretation and erode, if not negate, its meaning entirely.

Congress is empowered to “To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.”
I am not aware of any definition of the word “coin” that stretches to include printing paper money. To “coin” is to stamp money from metal. Robert Bork’s conveniently quotable, but morally vapid statement aside, that is the definition of the carefully chosen word in our Constitution. That is law of the land.
You may believe that it is no longer practical to be bound by that limit, a clearly enumerated power. That is, of course, your right. You might even be correct. However, allowing the judiciary to redefine or congress to simply ignore a clear Constitutional mandate (as precedent has shown they have) because it happens to be a current political or economic expedient, is to literally absolve government of any restraint.  And restraint was the overriding concern and intent of the framers.
The methods for amending the Constitution are clearly defined. Ignoring it is not one of them.

dph on August 1, 2007 at 08:14 pm

I am not aware of any definition of the word “coin” that stretches to include printing paper money. To “coin” is to stamp money from metal.

That may be true but the real catch phrase in the Constitution is regulate the Value thereof which allows the Congress to set the real purchasing value of the money be it metal or paper.  I think that most people think gold or silver when they think of coins but there is nothing in the Constitution that specifies the metal content of the ‘coin’ so you could have coins made from tin, aluminum, etc.  If the coin does not represent its real value than it might as well be substituted with paper.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on August 1, 2007 at 08:44 pm
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Doc is correct, whether to currency Congress is regulating is made of some metal or paper matters not, as the actual material doesn’t impact the worth of the money.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 1, 2007 at 09:35 pm

I believe the first gold discovery was in North Carolina in 1799, although it was not identified as such until 1802, with mining operations started the following year.

The point is that there was no domestic gold, or silver, to be minted into coins when the Constitution was written and approved by the states.  Nor any reason to expect there would be.  This was included to preclude the states from re-striking foreign, often captured coins, reserving the area of international relations, and any attendant booty to the federal government.

Warehouse receipts, written on paper, especially those issued for stored tobacco, were in common use as “money” for nearly 100 years beforehand.  Paper currency was not uncommon.

I am struck (to coin a phrase!) by the similarity between the argument you’ve put forward here, and that which was put forth some 30 years ago by those insisting on the need to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, ERA, because the Constitution refers specifically to “men” but not to “women.”

The practical solution then, as now, would have been a SCOTUS ruling which effectively expanded the more narrow definition to fit a contemporary world situation.

I certainly don’t disagree with your general thrust of constitutional integrity and primacy, though I question your narrow interpretation of the meaning of the verb “coin.” But as I mentioned, the world-wide acceptance of the FRN, the “greenback’s” singular inertia, despite its recent decline (how pathetically odd that those who in previous years bemoaned our country’s trade deficit, now bemoan the dollar’s decline.) all argue against any sort of structural changes, regardless of the reason.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 1, 2007 at 09:38 pm
Avatar for dph

I certainly don’t disagree with your general thrust of constitutional integrity and primacy, though I question your narrow interpretation of the meaning of the verb “coin.”

It is not MY narrow interpretation, it is THE definition of the word. Had they so chosen, any number of other words could have been substituted. The purposeful choice of this word must be viewed in light of the specific prohibition of the states to “emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts” and the young republic’s recent experience with the Continental Dollar.

Federalist no. 44.
Madison From the New York Packet. Friday, January 25, 1788

The extension of the prohibition to bills of credit must give pleasure to every citizen, in proportion to his love of justice and his knowledge of the true springs of public prosperity. The loss which America has sustained since the peace, from the pestilent effects of paper money on the necessary confidence between man and man, on the necessary confidence in the public councils, on the industry and morals of the people, and on the character of republican government, constitutes an enormous debt against the States chargeable with this unadvised measure, which must long remain unsatisfied;

We choose to redefine or ignore the precise meaning of these carefully chosen words at our immense peril. Will there come a time when those in power decide that the word “treason” has been too narrowly interpreted? What does “life” really mean? What is the meaning of the word “is”?

You get where I’m going with this. If you don’t like what the Constitution says, amend it if you can and we’ll all play by the same rules. Don’t play word games to justify ignoring the rule of law.

dph on August 1, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Avatar for dph

Just to clarify, I assume you know that by “paper money,” I mean an unbacked currency with no real limit on its creation. Not the simple fact that it is made of paper. I’m not suggesting, nor would any rational person suggest, that we all have to walk around with 5 pounds of gold or silver in our pockets when we go to the grocery or gas station. Paper money, as warehouse receipts for a commodity, Silver Certificates or bank notes redeemable in gold, have been around for a long time and would, I’m sure, be acceptable to any “hard money” advocate. Electronic tranfer gold accounts are available and could be as conveniently used as any debit card.
The core issue is, who controls the creation of money and can any one person or group be safely entrusted with a power to do so for all time.

I don’t believe there is anything inherently “magical” about gold or silver. They have simply evolved over time and usage as widely acceptable, reliable mediums of exchange because of their durability, fungability and relative scarcity.

It is the quality of scarcity, as an impartial arbiter of the creation of money, that I would suggest makes it preferable to the current system. No one group, be it government, a private banking cartel or individual can claim monopoly status on its creation. It is the most democratic of monies and as Madison said, “must give pleasure to every citizen, in proportion to his love of justice and his knowledge of the true springs of public prosperity.”

dph on August 2, 2007 at 01:25 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Regulating the value of coin has nothing to do with its purchasing power, but rather with the weight of gold or silver in the coins themselves.  Sorry, doing this via the Fed does not in any meaningful way meet the Constitutional standard.  The value of a coin is its weight in gold or silver, and marks, thalers/dollars, pounds, and other monetary units are witness to this historical fact.  The historic exchange rates are based simply on relative weights in gold and silver, and furthermore exchange was not necessary until 1913 because people would accept foreign currency.

Regarding deflation; the proper definition of the term is not a reduction in prices, but rather a reduction in the money supply. 

However, if we must mis-define deflation as a reduction in prices, it’s neither a bad thing, nor something that needs to be fought.  It does not prevent economic growth--only a FDR-esque suppression of productivity can do that. 

Rather, it tells people that if they have a dollar, it will be worth more next year.  It therefore tends to encourage saving (a good thing, even according to Keynesians), discourage debt (because you pay back in more expensive money, another good thing), and frustrate government’s growth (because their debt is also more expensive).

Moreover, economic growth was actually faster under the gold standard than it is today.  To claim that the gold standard stops growth is to simply reject the witness of history.

Robert Perry on August 3, 2007 at 09:42 am
Avatar for Brock

It doesn’t seem that anyone is hitting the real issues with this topic.  The Fed Res is a privately owned bank in the interest of International bankers that OWN it.  The Fed Res is the 4th attempt at a central banking system in the U.S.  The first three were eventually shot down, and when asked of his greatest achievment ex-President Andrew Jackson replied “I killed the bank”.  Thomas Jefferson was on account saying that the Bank of England was the real reason for the American Revolution.  You see this is how the central banking system works.  First, you take the right to print money away from the government.  Then you print money out of thin air, and charge the government interest on it.  The government then imposes a direct unapportioned tax to the citizens and it pays the interest.  However it can’t cover it all, the interest builds, the government borrows money to pay the interest but that money they borried also carries interest.  The UK wasn’t keeping up and began to tax the colonies and the revolted.

The Fed Reserve is the SOLE reason for our $1 bill being worth $.04 in comparison to 1913.  The Fed Res decides all interest rates, and decides how much money is in circulation by either handing out tons of easy to get loans or by demanding payoffs and not giving out money to tighten up the market.

Do some research and stop acting as the governments idiot to keep the brainwashing alive.

Brock on August 3, 2007 at 10:16 am
Avatar for dph

Brock,

This discussion began on another thread concerning Ron Paul and so, has some history you may have missed.

I suspect we might agree on much, however, I am hoping to deal with each issue of this complex topic in a singular, focused and sequential fashion, the first being the (un)Constittutional nature of the Fed.

Also, Bat One has obviously given this matter serious thought and deserves to treated with respect whether you happen to agree with him or not. Personally, I would very much appreciate it if name calling could be avoided in these discussions.

dph on August 3, 2007 at 11:01 am

Personally, I would very much appreciate it if name calling could be avoided in these discussions.

As would I.

I am perfectly willing to trade insults with those who have nothing more consequential to offer, but as dph makes clear this is an attempt at a serious discussion of a complex and multi-faceted issue.  When we get to the part about what exactly the Fed is charged with doing, and how, and why, we’ll be sure to keep you in mind, Brock.

In the meanwhile, you might look up that prior Ron Paul thread and read through the comments, then acquaint yourself with my previous “Lure of Easy Money” post.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to sing with the choir, but it helps if you can read music and know what page of the hymnal we’re on.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 3, 2007 at 11:41 am

dph,

First, let’s put the constitutional question to rest.  Then we can start to deal with assorted media of exchange.

I think its fair to say that we agree on the basic constitutional conundrum of our current Federal Reserve System.  At least from an originalist, and linguistic point of view.

Your objection is more strident and vociferous than mine, since my approach is far more pragmatic, where yours is more dogmatic.  Still, I am not without sympathy for your argument, although I believe firmly that from a practical point of view, abandoning the Federal Reserve is just about the last thing we should consider doing.

Since you offered no comment on my ERA analogy, let me offer another… one on which, perhaps, we can both agree.  That, of course, is Roe V. Wade (and its Griswold predecessor).  You may disagree with both the methodology and the ultimate ruling in the Legal Tender Cases, as I disagree with the methodology and the results in Roe.  But our respective objections aside, they are both the law… at least for now.

I would love to see Roe overturned, if only to stop the killing of innocent children.  But I share no such urgency in overturning the Legal Tender Cases.

I’ll leave that last word on the constitutional question to you.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 3, 2007 at 01:15 pm
Avatar for dph

BO,

Your ERA analogy is somewhat of a red herring. The Constitution is surprisingly gender neutral (amazingly so for a document of that era). The words “man” or “men” are in fact, never used and male citizens are not specifically referred to until the 14th Amendment (ratified 1868).

My objection to an unbacked currency is rooted more deeply than clinging dogmatically to the definition of the word coin. I believe there is ample evidence to support a clear intent of the framers to forbid government issue of irredeemable paper money.

Our Constitution is one of enumerated powers. Powers not explicitly delegated to the federal government are reserved to the sovereign states and the people. No matter how loose we choose to get with the word coin, I would defy anyone to show me any authorization for Congress to delegate its power to coin (or print or conjure from the ether) money, to a privately owned central bank and even more egregiously, confer a legalized monopoly status upon it.

But, Constitutionally legitimate or not, the Fed does exist and we must swim in the waters in which we find ourselves.

I would argue that monetary inflation is a direct and unavoidable consequence of our Federal (fractional) Reserve Banking system. I would further suggest that the deleterious effects of inflation on our economy and society far outweigh any perceived short term gain garnered through centralized control over the quantity of money.

Before we proceed, I should specify that I consider the definition of inflation to be an increase in the number of monetary units, not an increase in general prices. I will attempt to make that distinction clear in my posts and would ask you to help me understand your arguments by doing the same.

I now yield to the Honorable Bat One for comment.

dph on August 3, 2007 at 06:05 pm

dph,

The term “red herring” implies a malevolent intent.  I had no such intent.  The point of my ERA analogy was to note the comparative insistence on constitutional solutions to problems which could arguably be handled judicially instead.  And while I don’t disagree that the Founders intention was to bar “unbacked” currency, at least some of them, not even Hamilton was sufficiently prescient to foresee the economic complexity their creation has fostered today.

As for inflation, I don’t disagree with your definition of inflation… or your implied definition of deflation either.  But I do believe that a more comprehensive and specific definition might be helpful.  Inflation, in my mind, is the growth of the money supply relative to the growth in the economic activity supported by that same supply of money.  If the level of economic activity remains constant, and the supply of money also remains the same, then there should be no inflation.  Likewise, if the economy grows at 2% per year (insert your own growth rate and time period), and the volume of money also expands at the same 2%, then again there should be no inflation.

Similarly, if the money supply grows faster than the level of economic activity, inflation results, and if the economic rate of growth exceeds that of the money supply, then deflation occurs.  So far, so good.

At this point, a pestiferous host of questions need to be acknowledged, if not addressed.  For example, our definition assumes a consistently accurate measure of the rate of economic growth and a similarly consistent and accurate measure of the economy as well.  In the real world, neither is a given.  It would help, too, if the population remained constant, though of course it will not.  The level of government taxation should ideally remain constant too, as should the level of government expenditures.  The velocity of money in higher within the private sector.  There is also the question of globalization and the expansion of our economic reach beyond our shores.  Expanded trade across the globe requires an expanded money supply to support and sustain the growth.  Interest rates also play a key role in all this.  The list of other factors is seemingly endless, and with it Harry Truman’s lament for a one-armed economist.

Still, questions of measurement aside, I think we have a limited, but workable definition in place, at least for our purposes here.  Comments?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 3, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Avatar for dph

I meant only that the ERA analogy seemed somewhat irrelevant to a discussion of the meaning of a word actually used in the Constitution. I assume you to be of only honorable intent until clearly demonstrated otherwise.

The problem I have with your “more comprehensive and specific” definition of inflation is that it is in fact, neither. It is broadened to the point of being nearly meaningless. Increases in money do not flow evenly into all asset classes and goods. Prices are constantly changing for a variety of reasons unrelated to money supply. To hope that any sort of reliable measure of prices can be obtained and used to assess the impact of monetary policy is, quite simply, a fool’s errand. To then expect to discover the impact on consumers and the broader economy based on your flawed data is to compound the error.

Even if it were possible to get this far with some sort of useful data, changes in prices do not have a uniform impact on all segments of the market, thus necessitating choices about relative importance of some people or industries over others. That, my friend, is where the truly evil nature of central control of money begins to raise its ugly head.

Take, for example, the recent boom/bust cycle in residential real estate. I think we could safely say that it had much of its origin in monetary policy. Reduced cost of borrowing induced large numbers of marginal buyers to enter the market. Increased demand pressured prices upward. Price appreciation fostered speculation, adding upward pressure on prices. Dramatically increased prices brought more supply to the market and eventually the unsustainable growth spiral reached, as it must, the tipping point. And now, the inevitable bust is in progress.
I bought my home 18 years ago. I have a low balance on a fixed rate mortgage and no intention of moving any time soon. The current price of homes has very little direct impact on me. If I was young, had a growing family and had been priced out of the market, things would be very different. If I had availed myself of the cheap credit and was now upside down on a home with a soon to reset ARM, well, different story there. If I had been alert enough to buy a condo or two in Florida six years ago and sold them in 2005, or got greedy and held on too long, another scenario.
So now our central banker, who we will assume has only the best of intentions for the greatest good, must decide what to do, who to help or hinder. Should he attempt to rescue the young upside down family man, knowing that greedy speculators will get a boost at other’s expense as well? Should he allow the market excesses to dissipate without intervention and allow many families to lose their homes? And what about the guy who did nothing more that faithfully pay his mortgage for 18 years but may lose his plumbing or furniture or electrical supply business in the downturn. And, despite his best intentions, our banker, or someone who helps influence his decision, is considering which of these market segments has greater political clout. We must also remember that he is a banker, and must certainly take an interest in the effects of his choices on that specific business.

This now becomes a serious moral dilemma. One person or small group of people has the power to severely impact the lives and living standards of a diverse population, many of whom must suffer severe consequences of actions in which they played no part and bear no responsibility.

My point is that we could argue specific means of obtaining data and its usefulness until we’re too old to type, but until you can convince me that it possible to obtain meaningful data and be able to use that data in a way that will not punish some innocent people and reward some guilty, our efforts will be wasted.

And don’t let’s please go down the path of “The Greater Good.”

dph on August 4, 2007 at 07:12 am

Actually, inflation is an increase in price without a corresponding increase in value.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 4, 2007 at 07:50 am

dph,

Well, Sir.  If my definition for inflation is inadequate for you, perhaps you’ll offer something more comprehensive and specific yourself.

After all, it has been a major part of your argument against the Federal Reserve from the beginning that such a system causes inflation, despite the fact that our nation’s economy was demonstrably far more prone to wide swings from boom to bust, from inflation to deflation, before the Fed was created.  If you have no comprehensive and specific basis for measuring inflation, or deflation, your whole inflation-based argument against the Fed seems almost gratuitous.  Justice Potter Stewart’s famous “I knew it when I see it” test simply will not wash when the subject is inflation and monetary policy.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 4, 2007 at 08:33 am
Avatar for dph

You seem miffed. I had no intention to give offense.
You deserve a carefully considered response. Unfortunately, I will be out for most of the day. I will return this evening or tomorrow morning. Enjoy your day.

dph on August 4, 2007 at 09:29 am

I’m not so easily miffed.  I’ve had my thoughts, my cognitive abilities, my looks, my religious beliefs, my ancestry, and the honor of my family all disparaged by persons far, far more malicious… not to mention their intellectual dysfunction.

I have no doubt that we could easily enjoy dinner and a bottle of wine together without giving any thought to the Federal Reserve Notes, or electrons used to to pay for it all.

I have appointments with a some gutters on the house, some tomato plants taller than I am, and an assortment of weights and a heavy bag at the gym.

Enjoy your day as well.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 4, 2007 at 10:12 am
Avatar for dph

Inflation, correctly defined, is an increase in the quantity of money. This is the only workable definition. The only one that allows us any hope of obtaining a reasonably accurate figure.
Any attempt to broaden it to include prices introduces too many variables unrelated to the quantity of money. For example, while it is possible to track the average price of a gallon of gasoline in the US, it is not possible to determine what portion of any change is related to money supply versus changed driving habits, refinery capacity, middle east politics, weather, the entry or exit of investment in oil futures or any number of other factors. Compound this with the multitude of goods available in the market and all their associated variables and I think it is clear we simply cannot hope to obtain data that is even remotely useful in an assessment of the impact of our monetary policies. Furthermore, even if obtaining accurate, relevant data was possible, using a broad average of price levels to determine whether to expand or contract money supply is akin to saying that since the average temperature in the US is 56 degrees today, everyone must wear a sweater. I might be perfectly comfortable but there may be some So. Cal. surfers or Texas farm workers that have a problem with your centralized apparel policy.

Now, to suggest that our inability to obtain a singular and specific numerical assessment of general prices related to money supply growth does not mean there is no impact. Nor does it preclude an examination of the effects of price increases and other adverse consequences that we know are in some degree, measurable or not, caused by monetary inflation.

In fact, the very impossibility of acquiring meaningful price impact data is one of the strongest arguments against centralized control of money. The Fed is quite literally flying blind. For them to pretend otherwise is the height of arrogance and deceit.

I am going to take exception to your assertion that the pre-Fed economy was more prone to boom/bust cycles later but let’s see if we can work through inflationary cause and effect first, okay?

More later.

dph on August 5, 2007 at 12:50 am

Inflation, correctly defined, is an increase in the quantity of money.

This is just wrong.  It is an oversupply of money; more money in the system than is demanded by economic activity, including financing the next round of growth.  In the real world, this happens because the govt demands money with its wasteful and non-growth producing spending.
You illustrate the ideological approach of those who would throttle economic growth for political purposes, promising us to end inflation thereby.  It’s just stupid, and shows profound economic ignorance.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 5, 2007 at 09:01 am
Avatar for Robert Perry

R*108, it’s “wrong” according to modern Keynesian textbooks, but the classical definition of inflation is an increase in the money supply.  The increase in nominal prices is merely an effect of this.

Moreover, I’m somewhat perplexed about how anyone claims that the economy has been MORE stable since the institution of the Fed.  Has anyone here ever heard of the “Great Depression,” for example?  And yes, Fed governors do more or less admit that they played a big role in causing it by having loose money policies in the 1920s--to avoid ordinary price reductions after WWI, and also to keep currencies stable as the British (fiat)pound was being heavily inflated at the time.

Sorry, but claiming that the Federal Reserve has made our economy more stable in light of the fact that they caused the biggest economic upheaval in our history takes some serious stones.  You’ve also got recesssion after recession in the past half century as the Fed has realized that easy money overcharged the economy. 

Yes, there were periodic cycles before--including difficulties after the Mexican War, the Civil War, and the end of the bimetal standard in 1872.  I hope someone here might figure out that there is a common factor causing these upheavals, specifically one on the Potomac.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 07:45 am

RP: You already know that I don’t agree with you about the Federal Reserve; I don’t claim it has been perfect, but do think it’s absolutely necessary for a modern economy.
That being said, if you study the inflation in Germany during the Twenties, you see the practical meaning of the word.  Prices increased with no increase in value.  Common sense tells us that, to finance the next round of investment, the money supply has to respond to demand forces, including economic debt.  That is productive debt, as opposed to govt spending, which produces non-productive debt.  Money, like everything else, has to be able to respond to the law of supply and demand.
The deficiency of your definition is easily illustrated: If the economy expands, or wants to expand, the money supply has to increase to meet that demand.  To define that as “inflation” is silly, and meaningless.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 07:57 am
Avatar for Robert Perry

But why does the supply of one commodity need to be arbitrarily increaseable?  Certainly the supply of air, water, or any mineral cannot be arbitrarily increased, nor can the overall supply of people, intellect, and creativity.  What makes money so different that we need to be able to arbitrarily increase or decrease the supply?

And Weimar Germany?  You forget your history; that happened precisely BECAUSE the German central bank was arbitrarily increasing the money supply to meet the payroll of the government.  To use Weimar Germany as an argument FOR central banking and fiat money is to flat out ignore what really happened there.  At best, it serves as a reason to heavily regulate the latitude the Fed is given to create and destroy money.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 08:50 am

But why does the supply of one commodity need to be arbitrarily increaseable? You just made that up; I was talking about supply and demand.  Nothing “arbitrary” about that, is there? Certainly the supply of air, water, or any mineral cannot be
arbitrarily increased, nor can the overall supply of people, intellect, and creativity. What makes money so different that we need to be able to
arbitrarily increase or decrease the supply? As increasing economic activity expands the supply of wealth, the supply of money also has to expand, plus what is necessary to fuel the next round of investment.  I have explained this several times already.

And Weimar Germany? You forget your history; that happened precisely BECAUSE the German central bank was arbitrarily increasing the money supply to meet the payroll of the government. Coupled with the crippling of German industry and investment under the Treaty of Versailles, as well.  Too much money chasing too few goods. It takes govt spending to produce real inflation, as I have already said. To use Weimar Germany as an argument FOR central banking and fiat money Give away all your “worthless fiat money”, then. is to flat out ignore what really happened there. At best, it serves as a reason to heavily regulate the latitude the Fed is given to create and destroy money.

I was talking about inflation; you are on some ideological quest, which I don’t buy into.  My economics is practical.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 09:55 am
Avatar for Robert Perry

But why does it “need” to be increased?  Does the increase in known reserves of oil demand an increase in the known reserves of iron ore?  The very question is laughable!

No, if we increase the amount of oil, but keep the amount of iron ore the same, the relative price of oil will drop (ceterus parabus) vs. the price of iron ore. 

The same thing goes with gold or silver as money.  If you increase the amount of available oil, as did Rockefeller, while the gold stock increases at a lower rate, you will end up with a lower price for kerosene--a phenomenon which historians record.

Now to be sure, debtors don’t like real money, because it will tend to lead to prices declining over time.  They get to pay back more even before interest is taken into account.  But for those who know how to live on a budget, it’s a great deal, as any economist of the late 19th/early 20th century would have told you.

And yes, Weimar featured other things besides a hyperactive printing press in the Reichsbank.  However, that doesn’t refute the fact that this sorry episode does not reveal the necessity for a central bank, but rather the need to strongly limit the actions of central bankers, or get rid of it altogether.  The Great Depression shows the same thing.

I really don’t get why it is that people otherwise devoted to free markets are so quick to defend government money.  You would figure that after the Great Depression and the loss of about 96% of the dollar’s value, they would have caught on to the scam.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 10:23 am
Avatar for dph

Here is a link to a recent article that pretty well sums my thoughts on a lot of this, probably better than I could. Give it a browse if you get a chance.
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Mladjenovic/aug062007.html

Please forgive my intellectual laziness, but I need to do a few pesky things to make a living this week.

Also, I’m kinda enjoying the dueling Roberts thing going on here.

dph on August 6, 2007 at 10:27 am

But why does it “need” to be increased?

Demand creates supply.  Econ 101

I just don’t take an ideological stand on economic issues.  I support what works.
Also, I’m not “defending govt money”.  You just made that up.  Have you given away all your “worthless fiat money” yet?


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 10:42 am
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But if your inversion of Say’s Law holds, there is no problem.  If demand creates its own supply (I’d like to try that with prime beef, mmmm...), then there is no need for a Federal Reserve to print notes.  The supply would already be taken care of.

Reality is that the principle you cite is not a valid economic principle, let alone one that ought to be taught in Econ 101.  It is the inversion of Say’s Law, and we should no more be able to speak/print money into existence than we can speak prime steaks into existence. 

In the latter, it is a logical impossibility.  In the former, it’s a license for the government (which authorized the Fed) to inflate the currency and help itself to the value of our bank accounts.

The Founding Fathers, fresh from their memories of the worthless “Continental,” were wise to restrict the monetary power of Congress to “coining” money.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 11:07 am

RP: You are far afield from my position, driven by your ideology.  In the case of beef, increased demand initially raises its price, which encourages investment in beef cattle, which ultimately produces a greater supply, and the price returns to previous levels.  This is elementary stuff, and your ideology prevents you from seeing the simplicity of it all.
To me, it is obvious why we would want some sort of federal control over the money supply; the real question is “How much?”
Have you given away all of your “worthless fiat money” yet?


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 11:12 am
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If the laws of supply and demand are an ideology, I gratefully accept your calumny.  Were it only that you, too, could be ideological, and join the Founding Fathers in their appreciation of commodity money.

And let us proceed with your example.  Agreed on all the details, especially the fact that there is no such thing as a federal reserve ranch. 

Just as beef and chitterling supply is determined by nature and markets, so should the supply of money be determined.  It acts as a natural constraint on the growth of government to refuse it the power of the printing press to fund its activities. 

This is really a simple point.  You wonder “how much” power government ought to have over money, and my simple answer is to determine whether gold, silver, or both ought to be required to be accepted as legal tender.  To give government the means to print as much money as it wants without consequences to itself is to risk a repeat of the Weimar debacle.

As those who had experienced the debacle of the “worthless Continental” well know, sir.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 11:36 am

If the laws of supply and demand are an ideology…

Now you’re just lying; I refer to your ideology of using the “gold standard” as some sort of cure for what you don’t like, economically.  I have been clear about that, so please be honest.

To give government the means to print as much money as it wants without consequences to itself is to risk a repeat of the Weimar debacle.

I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous.  Once again, you fear-based “gold standard” ideology has led you astray.

Have you given away all your “worthless fiat money” yet?


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 11:45 am
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It may come as a surprise to you, but I’m the one advocating that markets determine what is, and is not, money here.  You’re the one who’s advocating government money.  Read closely.

And yes, I’ve traded most of my fiat money to people in trade for items of real value.  If you’re sensible, you’ve done the same.

And “lying”?  Now come on.  Be a man and remember that an honestly held position can never be a lie, as a lie is defined as a statement that the teller knows is false, but is spoken with the intent that the hearer will believe it is true. 

If you can’t define a little three letter word, how the heck are you going to correctly mouth Say’s Law?

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 11:55 am

It may come as a surprise to you, but I’m the one advocating that markets determine what is, and is not, money here.

Actually, it’s people who determine what is and is not money.  Money is anything that can be used in exchange for something else.
You lied when you characterized me as saying supply and demand was an ideology.  I said no such thing; I referred to your “gold standard” ideology, and you know it.
BTW, your gold is valued in dollars, not the other way around.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 12:07 pm

BTW, if you have traded your “fiat money”, then it wasn’t worthless, was it?  You refute yourself.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 12:08 pm
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OK, first; a conditional sentence written in sarcasm can never qualify as a lie.  If you have trouble figuring this out, consult a dictionary and a basic grammar text, and stop bothering people with your Keynesian ideas of gold being a “barbarous relic.”

Next, those who understand the debate know that “worthless fiat money” refers to its intrinsic value, not whether we’re forced (by executive fiat) to use it.  Nice try at a bait and switch, or nice bit of ignorance, but no, your argument does not work.

Finally, gold is not best measured in worthless fiat dollars, but in grams or troy ounces.  For what it’s worth, the “thaler” or “dollar” is also derived from a weight of precious metal, about one troy ounce of silver.

So even the very name of our currency militates against worthless fiat paper money.  Once again, the Founding Fathers knew it.  Why don’t you?

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 12:26 pm

OK, first; a conditional sentence written in sarcasm can never qualify as a lie. If you have trouble figuring this out, consult a dictionary and a basic
grammar text, and stop bothering people with your Keynesian ideas of gold being a “barbarous relic.”

You lie again; I never referred to gold as a “barbarous relic”.  I’m also not a Keynesian; which is another mischaracterization on your part, but I recognize the totalitarianism of the ideologue in you.

Once again, the transaction value of our money is the measure of its worth, not the quantity we possess of some metal.  I’m not “forced” to use our money, so you’re wrong there, too.  Another example of your ideological distortion.
Try using gold at your supermarket.
Nice semantic point, though.  Meaningless, but nice.
The Founding Fathers never decreed gold as our only money.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 01:01 pm
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Well, you’re 0 for 2 on accusations of lying.  Like it or not, the rejection of real money IS a central Keynesian tenet, whether you characterize yourself as Keynesian or not.  Put differently, quoting Keynes does not make me a liar.

And you’re not forced to use fiat money?  Well, exactly what is your grocery store example supposed to mean, other than that I am forced to use this paper whether I want to or not?

Again, when people individually choose what kind of money they will accept, they choose specie.  If you don’t like what the free markets have chosen, you join FDR and John Keynes, whether you like it or not. 

You also abandon those who restricted legal tender mandates to gold and silver coin, a group of men called the “Founding Fathers,” and you take a big step towards the abandonment of limited government.  Taxes that would never be accepted by free men, such as an 18% penalty on holding money, are implemented in disguise as inflation via the printing press.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 01:20 pm
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I haven’t been following this thread, but just to jump in let me say that free markets aren’t always correct.  They’re usually the best way to find the correct solution in a given situation, but sometimes government intervention is needed.

For instance, what if a quick lube station owner finds that he can undercut his competitors by eliminating the disposal costs for his oil.  He simply starts dumping it in the nearest lake.  In a free market he could get more business by offering cheaper service, but I don’t think dumping oil in the lake is the sort of thing old Milt was talking about when he spoke of “Freedom to Choose.”

The same is true of the gold standard.  It is inefficient and archaic and has no place in a modern economy.  Moving from the gold standard was a good move.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on August 6, 2007 at 01:28 pm

RP: In the first place, I don’t buy your “sarcasm” excuse.  In the second place, I’m not forced to use US money, even if you feel that you are.
I also don’t buy your totalitarian money ideology, that only the money you define as money is “real money”.
The real world awaits you.  Come out of the fear closet and embrace reality.  No one is trying to “force” you to do anything; you are crippling yourself with your inflexible ideology, but the rest of us are not willing to be crippled by it.
You can convert all your metal into money any time you choose.  That’s the “free choice” part of the deal, btw.  No one is preventing you from hoarding any metal you want to hoard; just don’t try to force us to live by your standards.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 01:30 pm

In a free market he could get more business by offering cheaper service, but I don’t think dumping oil in the lake is the sort of thing old Milt was talking about when he spoke of “Freedom to Choose.”

Good example, Rob.  The deciding factor in such a case would be information; once the word got out of the dumping of oil in the lake, people could choose whether or not to do business with the guy.  He would also be presented with the bill for the cleanup, and those “profits” would vanish, and then some.
“Free market” doesn’t mean anarchy, just freedom of entry and exit, combined with private ownership and control of capital.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 01:34 pm
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Excuse?  Sorry, but in this, you are a Keynesian, R*108.  Deal with it.

The ugly reality is that the gold standard isn’t poisoning the local lake.  Rather, it prevents governments from hiding their spending with a printing press, and taking “taxes” in the form of reduced value of dollar investments.

And the difficulty and cumbersomeness?  If it were, the Swiss wouldn’t be the world’s preeminent bankers, would they?  The reality is that a gold standard doesn’t require you to have the yellow metal on hand at all times.  Rather, it simply backs the same contracts that you’d use anyways.  You’d write checks, use credit cards, and even use paper bills in exactly the same way you did before.

In other words, you would have more, not fewer, choices, with the exception that the Federal Reserve would not be necessary.

You guys seriously need to read some older economics texts, specifically those that came before Keynes, to have your eyes opened to what fiat money does.  It is not a coincidence that runaway government spending followed the establishment of the Federal Reserve and the abolition of the right of individuals to hold bullion by FDR.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 01:49 pm

RP: Your ideology is based on the fear that govt is somehow manipulating us through the money.  You, like the Marxists, don’t believe that we have “free people making free choices”, and none of your lies and mischaracterizations can disguise that fact.  I don’t care what you use for money, and I definitely don’t want you deciding what I can use for money.  Got it?
It’s more of that “The world would be perfect if you would only all follow my ideology.” totalitarian crap.
Maybe you need a “dictatorship of the proletariat” to implement your ideas.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 01:59 pm

Robert,

I am sincerely curious (not being flippant):

How does a depressed country, which uses the gold standard, escape a liquidity trap?


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 02:01 pm

RP: First, you invent the “disease” of runaway inflation(which might happen in the future, like when NYC floods from the melting glaciers); then, you prescribe the “cure” which is your “gold standard” ideology, which will magically slay your mythical dragon of runaway inflation.  Of course, said runaway inflation is caused by the Evil Wizard, the Federal Reserve, and we are powerless to resist its enchanted spell.

Hogwash.  Of course, you have to call everyone who disagrees with you a name, and repeat a mantra, which is “worthless fiat money” in this case.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 02:07 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

R*108, perhaps you’d like to actually present some evidence?  Again, the Swiss had a gold standard until 2000; the fact that it can work with a modern economy should not be disputed.  This isn’t an ideology, it’s a fact of history that you need to deal with.

Tim, there is no such thing as a liquidity trap if you don’t have a central bank and a fiat currency, because no means to “stimulate” the economy would be used.  Rather, when the economy slows down, prices decline and bad debts are written off by banks.  The situation generally resolves itself in a year or so.

In other words, you can count on peoples’ need to eat, wear clothes, and have a home to coax money out of their bank accounts and/or mattresses and revive the economy.  Exactly this happened after all of our wars prior to the First World War, and it was the failure of the Fed to allow this natural process that led to the Depression.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 02:19 pm

Exactly this happened after all of our wars prior to the First World War, and it was the failure of the Fed to allow this natural process that led to the Depression.

You conveniently omit the 90% margin, which created a false demand signal for stocks.

Once again, you manufacture a “disease”, then introduce your ideological “cure”.  BTW, I’ll take our economy over the Swiss economy any day.  The Swiss thrived by doing money laundering for the Nazis.  Small point.  They have since extended it to other criminal enterprises, including the old Soviet Union and the terrorist nations.  I don’t want to follow the Swiss example, but you do, because they seem to support your monetary ideology.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 02:26 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

R*108, until you demonstrate that keeping accounts for world leaders, some of them dictators, had anything to do with the viability of a gold standard, you have merely slandered yourself with an ad hominem attack on the Swiss.

Reality is, again, that keeping bank accounts well is something that makes Switzerland one of the nicest nations on the earth.  It’s eminently doable to have a gold standard and a thriving economy.

And those 90% margin loans for stocks?  Again, we’ve been over this; high margin loans were not made, historically speaking, by banks to ordinary investors until the 1920s.  What happened then? 

Well, the Fed was trying to stave off deflation (a healthy thing after time of war) and prop up the British fiat pound.  Because the general trend was inflationary, and money was “cheap” from the Fed, banks decided to make loans that they otherwise would never have made.

http://www.mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

Again, we see that the problem, not the solution, is government involvement via the Fed.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 02:41 pm

Robert,

Is that how we got out of the Great Depression? By counting on people’s need to eat, wear clothes, and have a home? Seems to me like a lot of people starved, lived in rags, and died homeless until the government inflated the money supply.

Once again, how do you get people to spend when the nominal interest rate is 0 and the rate of deflation is positive? In other words, when you have a positive real interest rate of 4%, but people will only spend at say 3%. How do you fix the economy without manufacturing an inflation? How do you manufacture an inflation without fiat money?


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 02:46 pm
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Robt. Perry

How’s your head?

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”

dph on August 6, 2007 at 02:55 pm

And those 90% margin loans for stocks? Again, we’ve been over this; high margin loans were not made, historically speaking, by banks to ordinary
investors until the 1920s. What happened then?

The Crash of 1929.

Everything I said about the Swiss was true.  They aren’t all bad, but they aren’t the poster boys for the rest of the world, for sure.  In this country, truth is the ultimate defense against a charge of slander.

Tim: As I’m sure you know, the New Deal did not pull us out of the Great Depression; in fact, it most likely extended it.  What got us out of the GD was the need to produce to defeat the Axis in WWII.  We mobilized as a single country, and abandoned the class envy rhetoric of FDR during the Thirties.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 02:55 pm

Robert,

When did I say the words “New Deal?” I said “government inflated the money supply”—which is what it did by “spending” fiat money on production of weapons to “defeat the axis powers.” I agree with you completely.

Or are you saying that when Americans heard about the Germans abroad, they automatically began to invest their money into military contractors because some war half-way around the world was somehow more important to them than their empty stomachs?


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 03:00 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

R*108, I didn’t say you were wrong or lying.  I said it was irrelevant to the fact that the Swiss example proves, as does our own nation’s example, that a gold standard is perfectly compatible with efficient banking and a sound economy.  Got it?  Until you make a connection, you’re just making insults that defame primarily yourself.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 03:09 pm

I’ve always found it kind of sad to hear liberals blindly quoting flawed economics to support their stupid assertions. But for some reason (maybe because a part of me always held conservatives to a higher standard), I find it really painful to hear someone whose ideas obviously spawn from conservative economics hold to his beliefs so uncritically.

I ask again:

How do you get people to spend when the nominal interest rate is 0 and the rate of deflation is positive? In other words, when you have a positive real interest rate of 4%, but people will only spend at say 3%. How do you fix the economy without manufacturing an inflation? How do you manufacture an inflation without fiat money?


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 03:10 pm

I will keep asking this question because not even Milton Friedman could answer it—and he was the most staunch proponent of the gold standard until this one stumped him. After that he was all about floating exchange rates. So if you really think that your econ kung fu is greater than Friedman’s answer my question and the gold standard debate goes to you.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 03:12 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Tim, it’s really not that hard.  When you have a recession, you let deflation occur (it’s a natural process after any war, for example), and you let banks write off bad loans.  Had Hoover done this, we probably would not have had FDR as a President, nor would we be talking about a Great Depression at all.

And for what it’s worth, WWII was not just an economic event dealing with the money supply.  Don’t you think that somebody might have put in some extra hours to get their father, son, or husband back in one piece?  To argue that it’s just an example of inflationary policy is just plain silly.

Especially in light of the rationing and price controls of the time.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 03:50 pm
Avatar for dph

How do you get people to spend when the nominal interest rate is 0 and the rate of deflation is positive? In other words, when you have a positive real interest rate of 4%, but people will only spend at say 3%. How do you fix the economy without manufacturing an inflation? How do you manufacture an inflation without fiat money?

You simply allow the deflation (reduction of credit/money) to run its course as quickly as possible by not intervening at all. As prices decline, spending and investment resume at a price level commensurate with real demand (as opposed to the artificially increased, credit fueled prior levels).

Deflation is the cure, not the disease. Business operates on profit margins, not some minimum price level. As prices and wages fall, so do the input costs. It makes no difference if I sell widgets for $10 that cost $9 to produce or $1 at a cost of 90 cents. My margin is the same and the purchasing power of my profit is the same.

The answer is most definitely not to encourage farmers to plow their crops under to create artificial scarcity in an attempt to drive up prices while people are hungry. Nor is it to induce more of the problem (monetary inflation) that led to the boom/bust cycle to begin with.

dph on August 6, 2007 at 03:50 pm

RP: You go around in circles, and that defames you.  You are the only one trying to defame anyone, and that is because you want to push your gold standard/evil Fed mythology so hard.
Some expansion of the money supply is necessary for economic growth to take place, since debt is necessary to fuel the next round of investment.  To be afraid of this is to be something approaching superstitious.
This doesn’t mean that the Fed can produce economic growth through govt spending, which is what Keynes promoted, and which is wrong.  You just have to allow the supply to expand to meet the demand.  I admit that it has taken awhile for the Fed to get the hang of it, and they aren’t doing it perfectly now(an impossibility with humans), but it works quite well, your fears aside.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 03:51 pm
Avatar for Robert Perry

Now come on; until you’ve explained how crimes are related to the success of a real money standard, here or in Switzerland, you’re just throwing around insults.  It proves nothing except that you’re willing to insult people and indulge blatant non sequiturs.

And no, you don’t need more money to grow an economy.  Wealth is measured in goods and services, not just dollars.  Our nation had robust growth in 1870-1914, despite near stasis in the gold supply.  You’re simply arguing against history.

Robert Perry on August 6, 2007 at 03:57 pm

Tim: The value of defeating those who would destroy us created the demand for war materiel.  Mobilizing for war wasn’t the primary economic event; it was the pent-up demand for consumer goods after the war, coupled with the money available for investment, along with the productive capacity created by the war effort, which produced the prosperity which continues to this day.
I find that economic behavior, in this country, is intensely personal, and so textbook formulae don’t tell the whole story.
During the New Deal, FDR preached the doctrine of class envy("grilled millionaire” was one of his favorite terms), and the nation became depressed in spirit along with the economy.  After we defeated the Axis, attitudes became positive again, and a positive outlook is the first step to prosperity.  It’s at least as important as any particular economic ideology.


Save America; boycott the MSM.

robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 03:58 pm

Now come on; until you’ve explained how crimes are related to the success of a real money standard, here or in Switzerland, you’re just throwing around insults.

Again, you lie.  I have done no such thing.  The so-called “real money standard” is your obsession, not mine.  I related how the Swiss accumulated wealth by acting as money launderers, unless you think they made it by making watches and chocolates, of course.  It helped them to make money when they wouldn’t have otherwise been able to.
I just don’t agree with your rigid, fear-based ideology about money standards, that’s all, and that seems to upset you.  Tough.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 04:02 pm

And no, you don’t need more money to grow an economy. What is economic growth measured in, then?  Dollars.  Duh. Wealth is measured in goods and services, not just dollars. And the value of those goods and services is measured in dollars, along with all commodities, including gold and silver.

When you have perfected the art of becoming wealthier without increasing your dollar value, let me know.  Right after you explain perpetual motion, that is.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 04:08 pm

RP: I never said the Swiss committed any crimes; you lied about that, as well.  There was no “international law” to violate.  What they did(and still do) is reprehensible, and I don’t think my country has to do anything like that to increase its wealth, but I never accused them of being criminal.  You made that up.


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robert108 on August 6, 2007 at 04:11 pm
Avatar for dph

When you have perfected the art of becoming wealthier without increasing your dollar value, let me know

If I have ten dollars and a gallon of gas and a loaf of bread each cost $3 today and $2 tomorrow, has my wealth not increased?

dph on August 6, 2007 at 04:23 pm

Tim: The value of defeating those who would destroy us created the demand for war materiel.

So you’re saying that American citizens, not the US government bought the war material? What dimension are you living in?

Mobilizing for war wasn’t the primary economic event; it was the pent-up demand for consumer goods after the war, coupled with the money available for investment.

Umm… where did they get this money if not via government induced inflation? (something that would be impossible under a gold standard)

I find that economic behavior, in this country, is intensely personal, and so textbook formulae don’t tell the whole story.

Huh? Great way to skirt the economic theory opposing your views: “Well… I don’t believe in economic theory anymore, it’s all about human interest these days anyway.”

Just so you know, “personal feelings” fall into the textbook formulae, we call them “expectations.” Expectations are what prevent people from spending money when real interest rate is above 0 in a liquidity trap.

dph (as a side note):

You simply allow the deflation (reduction of credit/money) to run its course as quickly as possible by not intervening at all.

Deflation increases as people continue to save their money (because spending on essentials is not enough to generate industry) and real interest rate continues to decrease as deflation increases and people save more money. Your profit margin is 0% (actually, less than 0, since you’d be spending money) when there is no investment to allow you to produce your $9, or $1, or 5 cent widgets. This is why we call it the liquidity TRAP.

So once again:

How do you get people to spend when the nominal interest rate is 0 and the rate of deflation is positive? In other words, when you have a positive real interest rate of 4%, but people will only spend at say 3%. How do you fix the economy without manufacturing an inflation? How do you manufacture an inflation without fiat money?

P.S., I encourage you to use that lifeline and dial your econ profs.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on August 6, 2007 at 04:24 pm