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Thursday, November 22, 2007

Dorgan’s Energy Summit Stumbles Upon The Obvious And Already Known

As reported in the news Senator Dorgan, D-ND chaired a hearing November 20 at Bismarck of the Senate Sub-committee on Energy and Water Development; purpose of the hearing was to delve into the recent shortages of gas and diesel motor fuels, and the resultant high prices, in North Dakota since late summer. Written and oral testimony was received by the senator from six representatives of the industry who spoke for retailers, distributors, refiners, and pipelines plus the Deputy Administrator of the Energy Administration. Questions by the senator were directed at all of the panel asking to how the severe shortage of gasoline and diesel fuel developed and why it seemed to affect North Dakota more than any other area.

The testimony revealed that a combination of events came together--a rain/flood in Kansas, a refinery down for planned upgrades, and essential maintenance of others created a shortage of product in the central area. Capacity is coming on line and the situation is easing, but supplies of gasoline are still tight and diesel is very tight. Winter grade diesel is very low and home heating oil is also very low; mild weather so far this fall has kept the shortage from becoming severe.

Here is an interesting twist; North Dakota now produces about 125,000 barrels of crude per day; just under half of that is refined in-state to fuel products; the remainder of the crude and much of the refined product is piped out of the state (amount not specified at the meeting). During this shortage period from late summer to present, the pipeline terminals at Fargo and Grand Forks have been out of product or severely limited. As a result tanker trucks must go to Alexandria, Mn. or further, to wait in line sometimes for 12 hours, to get product and haul it back into ND. This gasoline and diesel product may be the same product produced at Mandan, now being hauled back.

Near the conclusion of the one hour and 45 minute meeting the question was asked of the panel, “What do you see as the solution to this problem?” The answer takes two forms which are nearly the same in the end: the short term solution is more refining capacity by adding to existing refineries; the long term solution is building new refineries. So, building refineries is the solution. Does that surprise any one? How long have we known that? A dozen years, or more?

Senator Dorgan said that Congress is now at work on a new energy bill--how reassuring. This will be the umpteenth energy bill out of congress since Nixon was president; all of them intended to free us from the dependence on foreign oil. The dependence has increased every year since and the price continues to go up. We are importing gasoline and diesel fuel from Mexico and Canada because we can’t refine our own crude. There has not been a new refinery built in the U.S. for over 25 years. So, Senator Dorgan, how will the “new” energy bill fix that?

Comments

Wasn’t Senator Dorgan instrumental in defeating the last energy bill and defeating drilling in ANWR.

Amazing that the guy can screw up the market then get all indignant over the results.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on November 22, 2007 at 11:09 am

Cpt Obvious strikes(out)again!


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 11:28 am

Since the private sector is not building any refineries maybe it’s prime time for the government to built a few and then sell to the pulic utilities.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 06:11 pm

Since the private sector is not building any refineries

You can thank the econuts and NIMBY crowd for that.
Byron is just pandering to his MoveOn.org base.

Kevin on November 22, 2007 at 06:19 pm

Fuck Byron and demand that the government start building. The refiners do not want to increase capacity because they want to extract maximum profit from their aging refineries.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 06:23 pm
Avatar for robert108

More economic ignorance from you, e.  You get wealthy by supplying all the demand, not by shorting supply; that’s how the socialists do it.
Wake up!

robert108 on November 22, 2007 at 07:00 pm

And his sidekick, Cpl Moron, is close upon his heels. e, this is stupid and disingenuous, even for you.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 08:14 pm

Tight supply higher prices. No need to build more refineries. Work less make more. Or work your donkey to death so you can extract maximum profit out of an almost dead donkey. Then you stop your donkey (refinery)for some R&R and the prices shoot up. Not enough refineries to compete against each other. Almost a near monopoly. As far as those NIMBY follks I have one answer: Eminent domain. No more back yard for your asses.If that does not work, that Robert108’s back yard looks pretty good.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:34 pm

And his sidekick, Cpl Moron, is close upon his heels. e, this is stupid and disingenuous, even for you.
2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 08:14 pm

Not sure what you mean by “stupid and disingenuous” but whatever.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:36 pm

Where that breaks down Ellinas is that I understand that there have been refineries stopped by the econuts.  In Arizona I believe. 

If that is actually the case then you would have no point.  Something we’re used to from you.


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on November 22, 2007 at 08:37 pm

New refineries and upgrades to older refineries are routine blocked by lawsuits from environazis, by onerous regulation and fees from government(state and Federal), and by “citizen” action groups.

e, stupid and disingenuous. They are words, you can find the definitions and guidelines for use in this thing called a dictionary.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 08:45 pm

e, stupid and disingenuous....
2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 10:45 pm

2Hotel9 I know what stupid and disingenuous mean and their definitions in the reference called dictionary. I don’t understand what You are refering to. But like I said whatever.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:51 pm

New refineries and upgrades to older refineries are routine blocked by lawsuits from environazis, by onerous regulation and fees from government(state and Federal), and by “citizen” action groups.
2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 08:45 pm

Time to elect leaders with 2 ton balls.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:52 pm

ellinas - The refiners do not want to increase capacity because they want to extract maximum profit from their aging refineries.

Huh? Why would they want to stick with aging and inefficient (compared to brand new) technology?

The truth is that the oil companies would love to build more refineries. This is difficult to do because of NIMBY, BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything AKA Europe), environmental regulations gone wrong and unstable environments made ill by festering boils of governments (such as Iran, the land of cheap oil, which has ZERO gas refineries).

Oil companies aren’t singular. They are separate entities that are in competition with each other.

likwidshoe on November 22, 2007 at 08:54 pm

Oh!ost forgot: Happy Thanksgiving to all.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:54 pm

Huh? Why would they want to stick with aging and inefficient (compared to brand new) technology?
likwidshoe on November 22, 2007 at 08:54 pm

Because they make a tidy profit on the ones they got.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 08:57 pm

"Since the private sector is not building any refineries maybe it’s prime time for the government to built a few and then sell to the pulic utilities.”

“Fuck Byron and demand that the government start building. The refiners do not want to increase capacity because they want to extract maximum profit from their aging refineries.”

“Tight supply higher prices. No need to build more refineries. Work less make more. Or work your donkey to death so you can extract maximum profit out of an almost dead donkey. Then you stop your donkey (refinery)for some R&R and the prices shoot up. Not enough refineries to compete against each other. Almost a near monopoly. As far as those NIMBY follks I have one answer: Eminent domain. No more back yard for your asses.If that does not work, that Robert108’s back yard looks pretty good.”

Stupid and disingenuous, see above for illustrative examples.

And sweetheart, it is your Party, the Democrat Party, that stands in the way of increasing America’s oil producing and refining capability. Thanks for spending your adult life voting for these fucking morons. Good job, honey.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 22, 2007 at 08:59 pm

Because they make a tidy profit on the ones they got.

And they would make more on better, more efficient refineries.

Go ahead and ask the stock holders what they think. We’ve got plenty of oil company stock holders at this website. Ask them to put their money where their mouth is on this question. They’re going to tell you that they want newer equipment. That’s the smart money choice.

Fact is, the oil companies have been wanting new refineries here in America for decades. The lefty environmentalists block all efforts, only to have some lefty like you come along and ask for government to do it. Go figure. What’s that about?

likwidshoe on November 22, 2007 at 09:01 pm

One answer for lame arguments from lame people like you all:
Time to elect leaders with 2 ton balls (testicals).

Now stop yer bitchin and get to work.

ellinas on November 22, 2007 at 09:14 pm

It’s all about big balls with this guy.

likwidshoe on November 22, 2007 at 09:26 pm

There you go ellinas. You made me think of that.

likwidshoe on November 22, 2007 at 09:27 pm

That is just,,,disturbing. White Girls cain’t rap, yoh!

As for this stupidity that the government could build refineries, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, they can not find their fat asses with both hands. Though there is the lovely development of Hugo selling off Venezuela’s American refineries and pipline/tranfer vacilities. Eminent Domain, indeed.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 23, 2007 at 05:01 am

environazis=leftards and defeatocrats.
They don’t want to build anymore refineries.


Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

goon on November 23, 2007 at 05:48 am

I don’t understand what You are refering to

e, your ignorance of economics is astounding.  If building less to optimize profits was true, Walmart would only have one store instead of a gazzilion.

Senator Dorgan, how will the “new” energy bill fix that?

The typical energy bill is directed on cutting demand rather than satisfy it.  More socialist crap.


You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

docdave on November 24, 2007 at 09:47 am

Give the guy a break, they’ve probably only got one Walmart in his area.  (At least that he’s able to find.)


What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on November 24, 2007 at 09:52 am
Avatar for robert108

Oil companies run on around a 9% profit margin, so the more product they sell, the more profit they make.  It’s simple math.  If one company tries to raise their profit margin, the other companies simply hold the line and take that company’s market share.  It’s called “competition”, e.

robert108 on November 24, 2007 at 10:02 am

I think that once e sobered up she realized what an idiotic mess she was typing.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on November 24, 2007 at 10:02 am
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