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Tuesday, August 21, 2007

Darwinism: Investigation Biased by Philosophical Naturalism

TAS Live
Darwinism at AEI
By Tom Bethell
Published 8/20/2007 12:06:23 AM
This article is taken from the July/August 2007 issue of The American Spectator.

EARLY IN MAY, the American Enterprise Institute held a debate about Darwinism, a faith embedded in many debates, whether scientific, religious, or political. The recent irruption of atheism can be traced to the Darwinian creed, for the well-publicized testimonials of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens all have recourse to Darwinism at various points.

It stands to reason that somewhere, some atheist exists which does not hold to darwinism.  Please make youself known if you are out there listening.

...The underlying problem is that a key Darwinian term is not defined. Darwinism supposedly explains how organisms become more “fit,” or better adapted to their environment. But fitness is not and cannot be defined except in terms of existence. If an animal exists, it is “fit” (otherwise it wouldn’t exist). It is not possible to specify all the useful parts of that animal in order to give an exhaustive causal account of fitness. If an organism possesses features that appear on the surface to be inconvenient-such as the peacock’s tail or the top-heavy antlers of a stag-the existence of stags and peacocks proves that these animals are in fact fit.

So the Darwinian theory is not falsifiable by any observation. It “explains” everything, and therefore nothing. It barely qualifies as a scientific theory for that reason. The impact of Darwinism on any and all political groups can be argued any way you want and it’s not very illuminating for that reason. So the AEI discussion frequently veered off into related areas.

Interesting to say the least. 

..In the question period, I asked Derbyshire if he could think of any observation that would count as falsifying Darwinism. He said: “I think miraculous creation would do it. The miraculous appearance of an entirely new species.”

That answer at least points us in a useful direction. Pursue it, and we might be able to clarify the Darwinian conundrum. The point is that in Darwinism a philosophical assumption, rarely explicit, circumscribes the “scientific” conclusions that are permitted. The assumption is this: Only naturalistic explanations can be allowed within biology. Naturalism implies the exclusion of mind, intelligence, or absolutely anything except atoms and molecules in motion. Nothing else exists. Everything must be explained in terms of physics and chemistry and anything beyond that will be derided as “creationism.” Good Darwinians are not allowed by their own rules even to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved in the origin or development of life. No research is needed to come to that conclusion. It is axiomatic within the theory. [emphasis added]

This argument has been introduced on numerous occasions here at SAB. Given the simplicity and clarity of the argument its amazing that it is so readily dismissed by evolution proponents.  Of course, the evolutionist would answer is that the science based upon a naturalistic assumption works and therefore premise, i.e. naturalism, is correct.  Wow! First assume naturalism is correct then investigate causation in accordance with methodological naturalism (something that must be done or it isn’t modern science) then declare that the investigation proves the naturalism is the correct assumption.  Next obscure the circular reasoning with scientific rhetoric and there you have it. Of course building a scientific consesus around flawed science is easy (e.g. man-made global warming). 

Derbyshire responded: “Scientists embrace naturalism because science is a naturalistic pursuit. A working scientist is by definition naturalistic.”

That is incorrect. From scraps of unearthed rubble, archeologists infer design when no trace of the designer remains. A scientist investigating how automobiles are made goes to a factory and learns that the assembly line originated in plans and blueprints, which in turn originated in the minds of men.

Ah yes, the mind! But that, too, consists of nothing but atoms and molecules in motion, no? Which brings us to the Inner Sanctum of the materialist dogma: Mind itself is nothing but matter. Free will is an illusion, and so on. (Darwin accepted these propositions, noting “the general delusion about free will.")

There is no reason in the world to accept the materialist faith, but once you do, then something very much like Darwinism has to be true. Life exists-we got here somehow, along with billions of other organisms. So how did it happen? Must have been that animals self-assembled a little bit at a time, in a long chain of accidental survivals.

How long before people stop defending such a blatantly biased superstition and start thinking outside of Darwin’s naturlistic box?

Comments

Avatar for art.downs

...The underlying problem is that a key Darwinian term is not defined. Darwinism supposedly explains how organisms become more “fit,” or better adapted to their environment.

I would like to read the whole article. Where can I find it?

As to a response to this highlight I believe when the author uses “organisms” they are refering individuals within a species versus, a population of
that same species.  The difference is slight, but what it assumes is that every individual within a species is the same. 

I do not have a source at my fingertips that backs up the claim that within any given species there is DNA diversity.  And while it impossible for an individual to change the DNA composition, it is not impossible to change the DNA characteristics of a group.

Lets take an easy one.  Giraffes did not “devolop” long necks as some evolutionists might claim.  They didn’t get long neck in response to their environment of tall trees.

In my humble opinion what occured over a given time span that within the entire population of giraffes, that were all competing for the same food resources.  Those that had longer necks could reach more food and more energy to mate.  Their offspring had the same characteristics as their parents.  So within the population long necks became more prevelant. 

Does this explain the origin of life, no. Religion is a search for truth, and science is also a search for truth.  Why do they have to be opposed?  They don’t.

art.downs on August 21, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Avatar for HG
HG on August 21, 2007 at 12:48 pm

In my humble opinion what occured over a given time span that within the entire population of giraffes, that were all competing for the same food resources.

Yes, the giraffes might have developed to take advantage of the food supply OR the intelligent designer (God) may have decided to create a creature that could benefit from foraging higher for food than other creatures.  But the main question here is:  Is specie adaptability (adapting to ones environment) the same as specie evolution?  Would you call the tone of someones skin adaptability or evolution?

Curiously the tone of ones skin does not seem to change when they switch environments.  In central Africa white anglos still stay predominately white.  In temperate climates blacks retain their color even through many generations.  Skin color only seems to change after a mixed marriage of people with different skin color so it would appear that the color of ones skin is programmed into ones genies.  The big questions are how were the genies programmed; why were they programmed [conventional wisdom seems to say because of ones environment?]; who did the programming. [As a former computer scientist, I know that programs don’t write themselves]

Does this explain the origin of life, no. Religion is a search for truth, and science is also a search for truth.  Why do they have to be opposed?  They don’t.

Absolutely, and the proof of this is that all the early scientists were religious people who saw no conflicts between their investigations and their religious beliefs.  Granted they, the early scientists, had some problems but they were as much to do with peer approval (same as today) then opposition from religion. e.g. the earth as the center of the solar system was once widely accepted by the scientific community.  I believe that the Darwinists are mostly to blame for todays rift between science and religion.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on August 21, 2007 at 01:38 pm
Avatar for art.downs

Curiously the tone of ones skin does not seem to change when they switch environments.

This is an interesting question.  Humans have adapted in such a way that we change our environments for survival, while all other animals “change” themselves.

When I was younger I incorrectly assumed that people were darker the closer to the equator they were because of the greater exposure to the sun they recieved.  I felt like a real dumbass when I learned it was actually the opposite.  People are lighter the farther they are away from the equator so they can absorb more sunlight.

Because the color of our skin was in direct correlation to the distance from the equator I would bet that a populations’ skin color would change over many generations. 

But with our modern lives and times this would be impossible and never happen.

art.downs on August 21, 2007 at 03:12 pm
Avatar for art.downs

Is specie adaptability (adapting to ones environment) the same as specie evolution?

I am curious to hear your thoughts on this as well.  Words these days have such connotations so I am going to have to guess as to the meaning of yours here.

So, is specie adaptability the same as specie evolution?  I would think the answer is yes and no.  If a forest rat who typically builds it’s home out of twigs and leaves expands its prescence to a dessert and starts to build its home out of cactus or mud, I would argue that the rat has adapted.  There has been a specie adaptation.  So now if the question is specie adaptability the same as DNA changes.  I would say no.

Now over time, the forest rats that sweat less will probably survive better in the desert where there is less competition(assumption).  So has the forest rat evolved into the dessert rat.  Yes and No.  So would that be evolution or adaptability?

I think the real caveat for evolution to really occur has to be some sort of isolation.  One group gets split into two, where maybe some previous recessive characteristics, or even rare dominant characteristics present themselves in the population with more frequency.

art.downs on August 21, 2007 at 03:23 pm
Avatar for art.downs

Absolutely, and the proof of this is that all the early scientists were religious people who saw no conflicts between their investigations and their religious beliefs.

I hear you.  I guess the problem I see with Creationism vs. Darwinism is that both groups feel they have the exclusive truth; when in reality in my opinion is they are both a path to discovering truth.

What I mean by this is does Christianity explain everything in the Universe. No. Does science? No. I truly believe that at some point in the future the two will meet.

art.downs on August 21, 2007 at 03:28 pm
Avatar for art.downs

HG -

Good article, I’ve only finished half of it I realized that I am one of the confused when it comes to the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design.

Now that I know the difference I will not try to confuse the two in the future.

art.downs on August 21, 2007 at 03:37 pm

What I mean by this is does Christianity explain everything in the Universe. No. Does science? No. I truly believe that at some point in the future the two will meet.

No, Christianity (which in some form was the religion of the early scientist) does not try to explain everything in the universe.  That is the role of the scientist, to discover the secrets of the universe.  Christians believe that the universe and everything in it including us humans was created by an higher being (God), an intelligent designer if you will.  Why that should be a bone of contention to modern day scientists is beyond me especially since there is no scientific evidence to the contrary.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on this as well

art, this is in response to your posted request on adaptibility vs evolution If evolution means the evolving of one specie into another, well no one has ever seen that happen whereas there has been noticable specie changes in response to environmental pressures but the same specie exists however changed.  There is also the subject of mutations which may further muddy the water but usually mutations are short lived.  However, if a specie was going thru an evolution metamorphisis, it would likely go through some mutation process with many of the mutations dying off.  I believe that in the fossil history that is the backbone of evolution evidence of failed mutations have not been found.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on August 21, 2007 at 04:24 pm
Avatar for HG

Derbyshire responded: “Scientists embrace naturalism because science is a naturalistic pursuit.”

This has got to be one of the most ridiculously glaring examples of the bias spoken of in this post:

To paraphrase: “Scientists embrace” a philosophical premise (i.e. naturalism) because science is premised upon philosophical naturalism. 

Utterly absurd.

HG on August 21, 2007 at 05:18 pm
Avatar for HG

..In the question period, I asked Derbyshire if he could think of any observation that would count as falsifying Darwinism. He said: “I think miraculous creation would do it. The miraculous appearance of an entirely new species.”

Glaring example number two:

Apparently the only proof that could possibly falsify darwinism is creationism.  Howerver, methodological naturalism predetermines creationism to be unscientific and therefore not admissable as proof.  Therefore, Darwinism is not falsifiable.

Utter nonsense.

HG on August 21, 2007 at 05:22 pm

HG, you and I are on the same page.  Like all illogic if you began with a fslse premise, you are going to get a false conclusion. For instance, science in not based on naturalism but on discovery.  Science does not create anything but discovers what has already been created.  [never mind the apparent creation of ‘new’ compounds, science merely discovers how to combine elements and compounds to form other compounds, a capability that was always there]

Whatever the argument or discussion about science, the creation motif eventually surfaces. The conservation of energy principle rightfully states that you can’t create something out of nothing meaning you can only convert energy not create energy that is not already present [unless you are a God, that is].

Another example: The Big Bang theory attempts to describe an ever expanding universe originating for a singularity.  Perhaps it has although there is a lot of problems around t=0 and t < 0 which is time before the Big Bang which is in itself a paradox since time did not exist before the Big Bang.  Another interesting question is from where did the energy that created the universe originate, and who lit the fuse that cause the Big Bang.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on August 21, 2007 at 06:44 pm
Avatar for HG

Docdave,

I tell ya, the lengths people will go to in order to dismiss what to most is obvious would be laughable if the arguments weren’t so absurd.  Then to top it off they demand this nonsense be exclusively taught to our children not just as scientific theory, but absolute truth.  If someone wants to believe life “self-assembled” go ahead and do it at your own expense, but don’t go crammin’ your folly down societies throat as absolute truth, strongly implying that faith in God is ignorant. 

Someone once told me that “things are not always what they seem” in an effort to defend the counter-intuitive nature of darwinism.  They were only partly right. When it comes to Darwinism, things are never what they seem.  This should be a red flag, but instead it is some sort of intellectual badge of honor.

HG on August 21, 2007 at 08:34 pm

All I have to say is this is some pretty crapped up reasoning.

Let me illustrate some of the problems with the arguments by starting with a definition of Darwinism:

Darwinism: the theory referring to biologist Charles Darwin’s beliefs that the origin of species is a result of variation due to a genetic mutation from the parents, with individuals who are best adapted to survive chosen through the process of natural selection.

OK, so this refers to a particular theory espoused by Charles Darwin to explain the multitude of data suggesting that a quite sensible principle was at play:  The Principle of Natural Selection.

Only problem is Darwin suggested that evolutionary processes are continuous, and we now know they aren’t, that evolution is characterized by long period of equilibrium, followed by rapid periods of change (usually associated with catastrophic events).

So whoever your guy was asking didn’t know his material.  “Darwinism” has been falsified a long time ago.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 06:47 am

The other thing to recognize is that (empirical) science is just not hypotheses and theories.

It is founded on experiment and observation. 

Then there are generalizations from observations that we can call “principles”.  The Principle of Natural Selection (PNS) is not a theory but a generalization from the data.  It is an empirical thing, not a philosophical framework.

And as such, it clearly is falsifiable and at the same time totally unrelated to any particular philosophical or religious framework, such as aethism.  Nor depending on the definition of creationism, would it necessarily be falsified if examples miraculous intervention were found.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 07:00 am

DocDave:

For instance, science in not based on naturalism but on discovery.  Science does not create anything but discovers what has already been created. 

This is a statement Darwin would have agreed to.  The vast majority of his writings are devoted to discovery rather than theoretical musings.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 07:04 am

Here is some more crapped up logic:

But fitness is not and cannot be defined except in terms of existence. If an animal exists, it is “fit” (otherwise it wouldn’t exist).

Start by framing a false equivalence between “fitness” and “existence” then go on to demonstrate that “fitness” is a meaningless term.

Philosophical arguments are made easy when you get to choose what the words mean, rather than having to stick with their commonly accepted usage. 

Here is a better definition: fitness: the degree of adaptedness of a particular species to a particular set of ecological pressures.

So a cat fish is well adapted to living in pond water, doesn’t do so well when you fling it in to a vat of boiling acidic water.  Yet thermophilic bacteria are ideally suited to this environment and even utilize the sulfuric acid as an energy source.  Drop them in ordinary pond water and they die.

So we can reasonable say a “catfish is fit to live in pond water, and thermophillic bacteria are fit to live in hydrothermal vents on the ocean’s floor”.

So is your author correct?  Is “fitness” a meaningless term?  ANS: Only if you start by defining it in terms of a meaningless definition.

Are you starting to see why I think his reasoning is “crapped up”?

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 07:18 am

And of course as to this claim: <i>So the Darwinian theory is not falsifiable by any observation.<i> Already shown it is false.  Darwinism has long ago been relegated to the dustbin of science.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 07:23 am

Carrick, I wondered how long it would take for you o weigh into this subject.  After reading all your comments, I am still not sure what position you are taking on this discussion.  You seem to agree with some points and disagree with others.  Specifically in which of my posted comments do you have difficulty?


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on August 22, 2007 at 07:38 am

More nonsense:

Good Darwinians are not allowed by their own rules even to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved in the origin or development of life

Note that the author allows himself to invent an nonexistent entity a “Darwinianm,” makes a slip “origin of life” has nothing to do with “origin of species"="evolution of life”, then a false characterization created by his own sloppy language: “not allowed ... to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved”.

Counter example:  There is a crab found in Japan that has markings on its shell that look remarkably like the face of a samurai.  The generally accepted explanation for this is that there is a legend that samurai who die at sea come back in the bodies of crabs.  The crabs who had these markings were returned to the sea by fishermen, and those who didn’t were eaten. So over time, most members of this species now exhibit this peculiar markings.

Secondly empirical science is based on observation, measurement and experimentation. If one found examples of creationism, these would be observable and hence part of empirical science.

Modern evolutionary thought does not impose the assumption of creationistic events because there are simply no examples where it is necessary.

When we go from empiricism to the construction of a given theory to explain the data, because there are no empirical examples demonstrating creationistic events, it is unnecessary to assume creationism to explain the data.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 07:41 am
Avatar for HG

Carrick,

It is clear from the context of the article the writer took “Darwinism” beyond the limits you define.  That doesn’t explain the statements by Derbyshire.  According to your statements Derbyshire would be just as confused as you say the writer is.

Nevertheless, the argument that the scientific model is established upon fallacy, i.e. circular reasoning, is sound.  Science, as allowed today, must observe all within a naturalistic framework.  This premise assumes all is naturalistic and therefore all theories of origins offered by modern science will yeild only naturalistic explanations. 

So riddle me this: Is naturalism falsifiable? 

It wasn’t so long ago science was not bound by such naturalistic walls.  It is a 20th century phenomenon that Science excludes all discover outside of methodological naturalism.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 07:45 am
Avatar for HG

Modern evolutionary thought does not impose the assumption of creationistic events because there are simply no examples where it is necessary.
...it is unnecessary to assume creationism to explain the data.

This is almost funny.  It isn’t any more “necessary” to assume evolution than it is to assume creation.  What makes for the necessary assumption of evolution is the exclusivity of the scientific method.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 07:49 am

Carrick: I find your counter example very interesting.  Since lefties consider human influence(selecting only crabs which lacked the markings) natural, it’s not an example of “natural selection”.  The most interesting part to me is the idea of the markings being related to the spirits of dead samurai, which is the origin of the selection process itself.  What’s your take on that?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 07:59 am

HG:

This is almost funny.  It isn’t any more “necessary” to assume evolution than it is to assume creation.  What makes for the necessary assumption of evolution is the exclusivity of the scientific method.

Again you are conflating concepts.  The founding principle of evolutionary thought is the Principle of Natural Selection, which is a generalization of observation.

Therefore, in explaining the origin of species, it is sufficient to adopt the Principle of Natural Selection to explain the observations.

Where the PNS not sufficient it would be necessary to adopt another mechanism, such as divine creation,</i> to explain the data.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:02 am
Avatar for HG

So is your author correct?  Is “fitness” a meaningless term?  ANS: Only if you start by defining it in terms of a meaningless definition.

Are you starting to see why I think his reasoning is “crapped up”?

Not really.  “Fit” is related to life as much as it is to environment.  That anything exists proves some degree of fitness.  What degree is undefinded; is it even knowable?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:06 am

Robert108:

I find your counter example very interesting.  Since lefties consider human influence(selecting only crabs which lacked the markings) natural, it’s not an example of “natural selection”. 

I agree it’s not an example of natural selection, but an example where intelligence played a role in the origin of this crab species.  Which was actually my point in that case, which was intended as a counter example disproving the author’s contention that Good Darwinians are not allowed by their own rules even to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved in the origin or development of life

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:10 am
Avatar for HG

The founding principle of evolutionary thought is the Principle of Natural Selection, which is a generalization of observation.

Not sure I follow.  Are you saying Darwin did not practice naturalistic science?  Rather, he made an observation without any philosophical premise or bias?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:10 am

HG:

It is clear from the context of the article the writer took “Darwinism” beyond the limits you define.

Which is a form of logical fallacy: redefining the words to mean something different that is easier to falsify.

That doesn’t explain the statements by Derbyshire.  According to your statements Derbyshire would be just as confused as you say the writer is.

I said that, actually.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:13 am
Avatar for HG

Darwinism has long ago been relegated to the dustbin of science.

Just the portion of darwinism related to continuous evolution, not the whole, correct?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:15 am
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Note that the author allows himself to invent an nonexistent entity a “Darwinianm,” makes a slip “origin of life” has nothing to do with “origin of species"="evolution of life”, then a false characterization created by his own sloppy language: “not allowed ... to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved”.

No more “sloppy” than ignoring what the author said:

“origin or development of life”.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:17 am

Nevertheless, the argument that the scientific model is established upon fallacy, i.e. circular reasoning, is sound.

Had you read through my explanation carefully, you would realize that this assertion is untrue and is based on the conflation of observation with theory.

So riddle me this: Is naturalism falsifiable?

I’ve already answered that and the answer is “yes”.  See above comments.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:18 am
Avatar for HG

which was intended as a counter example disproving the author’s contention that Good Darwinians are not allowed by their own rules even to entertain the possibility that intelligence was involved in the origin or development of life

Come on down to earth with the rest of us Carrick.  From the context you know the author is speaking of human intelligence, but intelligent design, and that the origin of life refers to evolution of new species.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:21 am

Carrick: My point did not involve intelligence at all, but the affection and honoring of disembodied spirits.  That was what drove the selection process, whether you consider it natural or not.  Instead of honoring a disembodied spirit called “Nature”, they honored the disembodied spirits of dead samurai.  I find it humorous.  Then there is the case of domestic dogs…


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 08:22 am

HG:

Not really.  “Fit” is related to life as much as it is to environment.  That anything exists proves some degree of fitness.  What degree is undefinded; is it even knowable?

What in the world are you talking about here?

I said quite clearly that fitness, as used in biology, is a measure of the adaptedness of a species for a given environment.  Catfish are “fit” to live in ponds, thermophyllic bacteria “fit” to live in deep ocean vents.  Unlike the claims of your confused author, it is a well defined concept.

You change the environment gradually enough (increase the salinity of the water), the previous species of catfish turn into a new species adapted for the greater salinity of the water.  One can say that the older species was less fit than the newly evolved one for that change in salinity.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:22 am
Avatar for HG

Had you read through my explanation carefully, you would realize that this assertion is untrue and is based on the conflation of observation with theory.

I read it, but I’m no buyin that no philosophical bias impacts one’s perspective, i.e. observations.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:25 am

HG:

No more “sloppy” than ignoring what the author said:  “origin or development of life”.

What are you talking about?

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:26 am
Avatar for HG

I’ve already answered that and the answer is “yes”.  See above comments.

You’ll have to point it out I guess. 

So exactly how is a philosphical naturalism falsifiable?  It can’t be done through experimentation that practices methodological naturalism.  That would be highy absurd.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:30 am

HG:

Come on down to earth with the rest of us Carrick.  From the context you know the author is speaking of human intelligence, but intelligent design, and that the origin of life refers to evolution of new species.

So now you’re arguing that like the Red Queen, your author gets to decide what words mean?

Origin of life refers to how life originated (biogenesis). Evolution with the development of new species from older ones.

The fact is your author made the common error of many critics of evolution that they don’t even understand what the words mean.  And you’re just shilling for him now by arguing that he isn’t completely confused about what he’s even talking about.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:30 am
Avatar for HG

So now you’re arguing that like the Red Queen, your author gets to decide what words mean?

No. Just listening to the author and deriving his intended meaning from the context rather than discrediting him for not using your terminology.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:36 am
Avatar for HG

You change the environment gradually enough (increase the salinity of the water), the previous species of catfish turn into a new species adapted for the greater salinity of the water.  One can say that the older species was less fit than the newly evolved one for that change in salinity.

How much time would be necessary for the fresh-water catfish to evolve into a salt-water catfish?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:43 am
Avatar for HG

What in the world are you talking about here?

Catfish exist in nature today, therefore they are fit.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:48 am

HG:

No. Just listening to the author and deriving his intended meaning from the context rather than discrediting him for not using your terminology.

I agree with this, but my point is he uses the words sloppily then conflates them with the more rigorous usage assigned by science.  That’s why his misuse of the words is represents a logical error, not the mere fact that he is just using them in a nonstandard fashion.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:48 am

HG:

Catfish exist in nature today, therefore they are fit.

“Fit” as it is used in ecology describes fitness for a particular environment, not just whether it exists in general.  Do you get the distinction now?

Your author was playing sloppy with language again when he conflated nature with environment.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 08:52 am

How much time would be necessary for the fresh-water catfish to evolve into a salt-water catfish?

It’s not at all certain that the catfish would be able to cope with the increasing salinity, no matter how slowly it happened.  It’s much more likely that the catfish would go extinct, and be replaced by a species that already had the capacity to deal with increased salinity.  Natural selection doesn’t answer all the questions.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 08:58 am
Avatar for HG

Do you get the distinction now?

I see, but nothing can exist in nature unless it is fit, correct?  And, nothing can be fit that does not exist?  So the signifigance of the distinction is unclear.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 08:59 am
Avatar for HG

significance. my bad.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 09:01 am

HG:

How much time would be necessary for the fresh-water catfish to evolve into a salt-water catfish?

On geological scales, a relatively short time.  Lake Poopó in Bolivia is an interest example of that.  It is an inland lake with no outlets, and a major inlet on one side.  There is a salinity gradient across the lake, and a species of catfish that has gradually adapted to the more saline waters of the lake (as opposed to the inlet).

I don’t know that we understand the time scales necessary for this adaptation to occur, but advances in the last few decades in evolutionary biology have made it clear that mutation does not generally play a role in the adaption process.  Rather there are “switches” in the “genetic toolbox” of a given species that get switched that allows for very rapid adaption to new environments.  The “new” species may be nearly identical to the original one, other than in the presentation of only a few genes.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:04 am
Avatar for HG

then conflates them with the more rigorous usage assigned by science.

I am anxious for you to explain how naturalism is falsifiable.

And how it is that observation is not biased by one’s own philosophical persuasion—if that is what you’re saying; it still is a little unclear.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 09:05 am

HG:

I see, but nothing can exist in nature unless it is fit, correct?  And, nothing can be fit that does not exist?  So the signifigance of the distinction is unclear.

You really buy that argument?

The word fitness describes whether a catfish is “fit” to live in a pond, rather than a deep-ocean hydraulic vent… and you are claiming this “distinction” is unclear?

LOL

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:09 am

Or the significance of the word for that matter.  (catfish live in ponds not hydraulic vents, that’s pretty significant) In your effort to shill for your author, you are really getting downright silly here.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:12 am

HG:

I am anxious for you to explain how naturalism is falsifiable.

By demonstrating that naturalistic explanations can’t explain all observation.  That isn’t exactly an unfair demand:  If you want to place creationism on the same pedestal of empirical science as naturalism, you have to provide examples where creationism provides a unique or more compelling explanation than the naturalistic ones.

And how it is that observation is not biased by one’s own philosophical persuasion—if that is what you’re saying; it still is a little unclear.

Science accepts that observer bias exists.  I have explained that already, and has mechanisms for canceling that observer bias:

1) repetition of experiment or observation by independent observers
2) placing greater weight on quantitative or classifiable differences over subjective or nonclassifiable ones.  (Examples, weight is quantitative, fit for fresh water versus sea water is a classifiable difference.)

If you want to propose that the Principle of Natural Selection is an artifice of observer bias, you would have to find subjective elements that contributed to this.  Otherwise, you are left with objective or classifiable features in the data set that you can easily replicate yourself; making the generalization (PNS) not significantly affected by the bias of individual observers.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:23 am
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The word fitness describes whether a catfish is “fit” to live in a pond, rather than a deep-ocean hydraulic vent… and you are claiming this “distinction” is unclear?

No.  Read again.  The significance of the distinction is unclear.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 09:30 am
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By demonstrating that naturalistic explanations can’t explain all observation.

How would one do so?  Any demonstration would have to be naturalistic to be scientifically credible.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 09:36 am

HG:

No.  Read again.  The significance of the distinction is unclear.

How is there anything unclear about the fact you can’t throw a catfish into boiling acidic water and expect it to survive?  The word as used in science as opposed to by your author refers to suitability for a given environment.

I guarantee you the statement that “humans are not fit to live in deep ocean vents” would be bloody well significant to you, if I shoved you into a deep ocean vent! 

The significance of the word is obvious, and if you weren’t working so hard to shill for your author, you probably readily would agree.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:38 am

HG:

How would one do so?  Any demonstration would have to be naturalistic to be scientifically credible.

You’re conflating naturalism with empiricism.

It would have to be observable and verifiable in the sense I gave earlier.

For example, if you demonstrated that the human body lost 3 oz upon the moment of death (=departure of the soul), this is a quantitative measure that other people would try and repeat.  This would establish that there was a quantifiable measure associated with “living,” i.e., proof that we have souls.

There is an example in homeopathic medicine, where it was claimed that you can introduce a beneficial substance to water, then continuously dilute it, and the diluted solution continues to have a beneficial effect, well after the substance has been diluted to the point it should have be ineffectual.

These are both examples of published peer-reviewed literature that were treated as potentially credible, but later disproved because they couldn’t be replicated.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:49 am

DocDave, I didn’t mean to ignore you, but your question is a good one and I didn’t want to hurry a reply:

You seem to agree with some points and disagree with others.  Specifically in which of my posted comments do you have difficulty?</blockquote>Well, if you want me to specify something, try this:<blockquote>The conservation of energy principle rightfully states that you can’t create something out of nothing

That’s not quite what it states. wink It says that the amount of energy in a closed system is constant over time.

And it turns out that General Relativity violates this principle in a curved space-time.  So in a sense, GR is creating more from less.

But I don’t suppose that is what you meant (example of nit-picking).  I’ll sift through your specific comments and respond to them (not always disagreeing, sorry).

Here is an interesting question that you raise:

Is specie adaptability (adapting to ones environment) the same as specie evolution?  Would you call the tone of someones skin adaptability or evolution?

The term evolution properly describes the transition from one species to as new species as a response to the change in environment, however that environmental change was affected.  In the case of environmental change that can occur either due to change in the ecology of the current environment of the species or through migration of the species into a new niche.

But the key question is: What constitutes a new species?  That turns out to be not very straightforward: Generically, it is the collection of organisms that are capable of interbreeding and producing new offspring.  However, there are examples of species that can interbreed and produce offspring (domestic cats and certain wild cats), so the distinction becomes a bit muddled in reality.

Regardless of whether one uses the somewhat loaded word “species,” adaptability still describes the phenomenon in which humans in tropical environments have more melanin in their skin and their pupils than those living in more temperate zones.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:52 am

HG, in any case, this is false:

And, nothing can be fit that does not exist? 

We can readily produce new varieties of plants from older ones.  Yet these are fit but didn’t exist before we created the new species. The term “fitness” need not apply to an extant species to be meaningful.

So the author’s argument is hogwash no matter how you want to try and rescue it.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 09:57 am

Carrick: I believe that creating a variety is an entirely different matter from creating a species.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 10:13 am

Rather there are “switches” in the “genetic
toolbox” of a given species that get switched that allows for very rapid adaption to new environments. The “new” species may be nearly identical to the original one, other than in the presentation of only a few genes.

Where did those “switches” and genes come from? How did evolution create them?


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 10:21 am
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Yet these are fit but didn’t exist before we created the new species.

Maybe this is relevant to your arguement, but you have made it clear how. 

A potential species is fit?  So what?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 01:07 pm
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It would have to be observable and verifiable in the sense I gave earlier.

If I am conflating the two (naturalism and empericism), you have done little to distinguish the two.  Using the argument advanced in the highlighted in the argument above, please demonstrate the conflation and in so doing distinguish between the two. 

You are the first I’ve ever heard defend philosophical naturalism as scientifically verifiable or falsifiable. 

The bottom line is science only investigates anything using the scientific method—methodological naturalism. 

Darwin had no observable evidence of his theory within the fossil record and readily acknowledged such.  So the idea that his observation qualified as emperical appears to be a stretch.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 01:20 pm
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You know this discussion has veered off into obscurity.  I think that helps only the evolutionists whose ability to argue around the blatant philosophical bias and circular reasoning of modern science is mistaken for intellectual credibility.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 01:29 pm

Darwin had no observable evidence of his theory within the fossil record and readily acknowledged such.  So the idea that his observation qualified as emperical appears to be a stretch. You know this discussion has veered off into obscurity.  I think that helps only the evolutionists whose ability to argue around the blatant philosophical bias and circular reasoning of modern science is mistaken for intellectual credibility.

You are right in every way HG, I’ll only add that I will stand where I have been for many decades against The Evolution of the Species and eveolution in general, until the other side can give me a clear, objective answer to this simple question: In all of the universe, in every observable fact of nature, we see overwhelming evidence of incredibly, may I say perfect, design; and, so I must ask how can we have so much evidence of complex design absent a pre-existing Designer? How can incredibly, perfect, complex design ever result from random mutations over time which might that such mutations always are the result of a loss of information, not additions.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on August 22, 2007 at 01:40 pm
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I observe purpose and design in nature. I recognize that knowlege is discovered throughout nature.  I don’t first assume that these observations are the product of matter acting upon matter.  I assume an Intelligent Designer who created all.  I then approach the evidence present in nature from that perspective and find that there are things explainable through natural effects and there are things unexplainable through natural effects.  I exlude all attempts to offer naturalistic explanations for those classified as unnatural on the grounds that such would violate my philosophical perspective that nature is not all that there is. 

This is the reverse of the modern scientific argument against intelligent design and creationism.  IMO the entire argument over what is science boils down to which philosphical perspective is correct, i.e. naturalism vs. natural philosophy.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 01:51 pm
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The significance of the word is obvious, and if you weren’t working so hard to shill for your author, you probably readily would agree.

Boy Carrick, I thought you were suppose to be smart.  The word is fit; the distinction you point out is discernable; the significance of the distinction as it relates to the this discussion is unclear.  Therefore, read it again for yourself:

“The significance of the distinction is unclear”.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 02:06 pm

HG:

Maybe this is relevant to your arguement, but you have made it clear how.

I’ve decided that you’re just being intentionally obtuse, or simply aren’t interested in admitting that your author was wrong.

The term “fitness” refers to how well a particular organism is adapted to a particular environment. 

The term fitness is extended in mathematics to “goodness of fit” in which genetic algorithms (that use a mathematical technique akin to natural selection) end up choosing an optimal solution to a given set of conditions.

To review this argument, your author made the following erroneous statement:

. But fitness is not and cannot be defined except in terms of existence.

This is wrong on just about every level.  it is wrong because it need not be defined in terms of existence.  Secondly, it can be extended to discussions involving nonextant species (e.g., extinct or hypothetical species).  Third it can be applied to totally abstract generalizations that don’t even include biological evolution at all!

This topic, by the way, hasn’t veered to obscurity, but rather from it.

Your author chooses to make unique definitions of words (how more obscure can you get), then conflate them with standard uses of the words by arguing the two are equivalent.  This is not only obscure, it’s just logically flawed.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:08 pm

HG:

Boy Carrick, I thought you were suppose to be smart.  The word is fit; the distinction you point out is discernable;

Well, that’s a relief!  You admit there is a discernible distinction in the uses of the word.

the significance of the distinction as it relates to the this discussion is unclear.

The significance of the distinction is your author made a fallacious argument.

How much more significant can this distinction be?

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:14 pm

HG:

This is the reverse of the modern scientific argument against intelligent design and creationism. IMO the entire argument over what is science boils down to which philosphical perspective is correct, i.e. naturalism vs. natural philosophy.

Actually it’s a bit more profound, when framed the way you are going.

You are basically starting from an Aristotelian “top down” approach, where you attempt to impose your order on nature.  Modern empirical science goes “bottom up”, where your observations impose the order on your theory.

The argument of naturalism versus creationism is in this sense just a red herring.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:16 pm

DocDave:

In all of the universe, in every observable fact of nature, we see overwhelming evidence of incredibly, may I say perfect, design; and, so I must ask how can we have so much evidence of complex design absent a pre-existing Designer? How can incredibly, perfect, complex design ever result from random mutations over time which might that such mutations always are the result of a loss of information, not additions.

The two approaches need not be orthogonal.  That’s as simple as I can make it. 

Evolutionary developmental biology deals with the science of how more primitive organism produce more complex ones over time.  It says nothing about how life originated, nor even, where the rules came from that allowed this incredible symphony of nature to be possible.  Hidden hand creationism is an example that can’t ever be disproved, but it’s more of a theological argument than a scientific one, so that’s fine in any case.

By the way, random mutations don’t play a big role in modern evolutionary developmental biology as they did historically.  See this for more details.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:22 pm

Robert108:

Carrick: I believe that creating a variety is an entirely different matter from creating a species.

That’s true of course.

It’s obviously easier to create a new variety than a new species using Mandellian processes.  However, we’ve also created new species, the Japanense crab was one example of unintentional speciation.  More recently it is routine to create new species by mixing the genes from different species together, e.g., “frankenfish”.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:27 pm

HG:

I think that helps only the evolutionists whose ability to argue around the blatant philosophical bias and circular reasoning of modern science is mistaken for intellectual credibility.

I think this is another demonstration that you don’t understand how science works, if you think it is circular.  It is, as I’ve said, a bottom-up process.  Yes there is top-down feedback that helps refined the data, but the data rule over the theories; the process is democratic, anybody can play; and repetition is used to weed out poor theories and poor data.

That’s not circular regardless of how strongly you want it to be.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:31 pm

Robert108:

Where did those “switches” and genes come from? How did evolution create them?

God knows! wink

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 02:33 pm

...the Japanense crab was one example of unintentional speciation.

Is it true that the marked and unmarked crabs could not reproduce with each other?  I wasn’t aware of this.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 02:38 pm
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Okay.

Modern science first says lets look at the evidence and first find naturalistic possibilities without formally excluding supernatural posibilities.  Then when the evidence yeilds a possible naturalistic explanation the generalization is that nature is all that there is. 

Okay let’s try it with ID.

Intelligent Design look at the evidence from a design perspective without formally excluding naturalistic possibilities.  Then when the evidence yeilds a possible supernatural explanation the generalization could be that nature is not all that there is.

Bottoms up.

HG on August 22, 2007 at 02:49 pm

the Japanense crab was one example of unintentional speciation.

But, not trans-speciation...the crab did not become a kitty cat!



A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

Proof on August 22, 2007 at 02:50 pm
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I think this is another demonstration that you don’t understand how science works, if you think it is circular.

So methodological naturalism is not the scientific method by which all modern scientific investigation must operate?

HG on August 22, 2007 at 03:25 pm

Robert108:

Is it true that the marked and unmarked crabs could not reproduce with each other?  I wasn’t aware of this.

Crossbreding is not the only test for speciation.  Domestic cats and at least five species of wild cats can interbreed.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 06:20 pm

So, what is the proof that the marked and unmarked crabs are now different species?  If it’s only the external markings, how is that evidence of speciation?  I thought there had to be other structural differences.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on August 22, 2007 at 06:23 pm

HG:

So methodological naturalism is not the scientific method by which all modern scientific investigation must operate?

Why invent new fuzzy terms to describe existing well defined ones?  A much better term for empirical science is “empirical pragmatism.” That is, the data say what the data say regardless of whose apple cart gets toppled by them, including naturalism if it were necessary.

Empirical science operates by precepts that do not exclude nonnatural explanations.  Explanations that best describe the data that also can make new unique predictions are preferred over those that do not, but empirical self-consistency is a requirement for any theory.

Carrick on August 22, 2007 at 06:27 pm