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Tuesday, May 06, 2008

Darwin and Hitler: In Their Own Words

by Benjamin Wiker

As David Berlinski recently noted, “the thesis that there is a connection between Darwin and Hitler is widely considered a profanation.” But striking an indignant pose—feathers in full ruffle—is not an answer to such a serious charge, especially when the words of both Darwin and Hitler speak otherwise.

Those defending Darwin cannot have read his Descent of Man, wherein he applies the principles of natural selection to human beings—a thing he prudently avoided in his earlier Origin of Species. In the Descent, the eugenic and racial inferences are clearly and startlingly drawn by Darwin himself.

Darwin understood the eugenic implications of his own theory, and warned his readers against imminent evolutionary backsliding. “It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.” Insert a few terms like “Aryan” or “Jew” and that could be in any Nazi screed.

“If … various checks … do not prevent the reckless, the vicious and otherwise inferior members of society from increasing at a quicker rate than the better class of men, the nation will retrograde, as has occurred too often in the history of the world. We must remember that progress is no invariable rule.”

While Darwin tried to soften the hard implications (by suggesting that we not kill the rogues; rather, we should just keep them from breeding), the eugenic edifice was his.

And the racial thing? Evolution is driven by competition, and competition brings extinction. Darwin notes, matter-of-factly in the Descent, that one tribe extinguishing another is the very engine of human evolution. In his words, “extinction follows chiefly from the competition of tribe with tribe, race with race,” allowing the victorious tribe or race to pass on their superior endowments.

That is not a moral complaint; it is a detached scientific description uttered by Darwin entirely without angst. As the engine of evolution is never idle, it is also a prophecy. Again, his own words:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous [i.e., most human-looking] apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

Get it? Ranking the human races, we find the Caucasian at top, and down at the bottom, dangling at the edge of humanity, “the negro or Australian” who is just an evolutionary hair’s-breadth away from the anthropomorphous gorilla. In pushing upwards to the über-Caucasian, evolution also exterminates all the “intermediate species,” so that natural selection will do away with the Negro, the aboriginal Australian, and the gorilla.

Like it or not, Darwin’s eugenic and racial ideas spread from him, and infected both Europe and America.

Now for Adolf. I suspect that, just as a lot of folks haven’t read Darwin’s execrable Descent of Man, so also they feel free to enter the debate without having read Hitler’s Mein Kampf.

It is inaccurate to blame the entire of Hitler’s evil on anti-Semitism precisely because his anti-Semitism was part of a larger biological vision. “National Socialism is nothing but applied biology,” said the deputy Party leader of the Nazis, Rudolf Hess.

As Hitler made clear in Mein Kampf, the fundamental political category is biological.  Consequently, “the highest aim of human existence is not the maintenance of a State or Government but rather the conservation of the race.” This aim accords with Hitler’s larger Darwinian view of the cosmos, wherein the “fundamental law of necessity” reigning “throughout the realm of Nature” is that “existence is subject to the law of eternal struggle and strife….where the strong are always the masters of the weak and where those subject to such laws must obey them or be destroyed.” Survival of the fittest.

[...]

All this doesn’t mean that Darwinism was the sole cause of Hitler’s barbarism. But it does make clear that Darwinism must shoulder its share of the moral burden, because the connection is undeniable.

I guess this explains all the “death to Republicans/conservatives” talk on the leftie hate blogs, as well as the so-called “Fairness Doctrine”.
Of course, the American version of “survival of the fittest” is the free market, which explains the decline and fall of Air America and the NYT.

Comments

Avatar for Lestat

Once again Robert shows himself to be an idiot and a bigot.

From one side of your mouth you argue that for the last 20 years he has been a practicing Christian believing everything Reverand Wright says.  From the other side you say that he has been insincere his whole life and is really a Muslim.

Lestat on May 6, 2008 at 07:45 pm

Lestat,

Your really do need to see your doctor… quickly.  In the two sentences above written written by Robert he mentions nothing about Christianity (practicing or not), nor Barack Obama, nor Rev. Wright, while Mr. Wiker’s article deals with the relationship between so-called “Social Darwinism” and the philosophical foundation of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.  Again, nothing about Obama, Wright or their respective religious persuasions.

Does it not occur to you that comments ought to have some modest relationship to the subject matter of the post to which they’re appended?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 6, 2008 at 08:03 pm

From one side of your mouth you argue that for the last 20 years he has been a practicing Christian believing everything Reverand Wright says.

Lestat, you lie; I have never described Obama as “a practicing Christian”, as I don’t believe black liberation theology bears any resemblance to Christianity, and have said as much on numerous occasions.
I’ll say again that Obama subscribes to the same ideology as does Wright; that’s my assessment of the situation, but you’re off-topic, as Bat has pointed out.  This thread is about the derivation of Nazi eugenics in the teachings of Darwin.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 6, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Avatar for so_what

This is ridiculous. I couldn’t care in the slightest what Darwin thought about such matters. The real question is this: from a purely empirical standpoint, does the Theory of Evolution hold water? A complete wacko can come up with a solid scientific theory and said person’s insanity does not invalidate the science in the least bit. In science, a theory is judged solely on it’s ability to be proven or disproven.

The funny thing about creationists is they want everyone to believe that all scientists have willingly accepted evolution, even though they know it to not be true, just so they don’t have to believe in God. Of course, this completely ignores the fact that there were many atheists before Darwin. Not to mention the element of human greed. Let’s face it, most scientists will never be wealthy or cool. The best they can hope for is to have a theory/equation/constant named after them. The field of science is fiercely competitive, and if you really think the entire community of scientists would just “allow” Darwin a pass on a clearly incorrect theory is ridiculous. I’m not expecting anyone to believe that scientists are these infallible people without the slightest flaw. Other scientists want the fame and notoriety for themselves. If there had been any way to disprove or discredit Darwin’s theory it would have been done.

Most people who reject evolution are clearly entirely uninvolved in science. Scientific research, through the method of peer review, is heavily scrutinized. Even as an undergraduate, your work is torn to shreds by grad students, other undergrads, and professors. In science, you don’t get anywhere by simply reaffirming scientific knowledge. The fame comes through discovering something new. This is another reason that if evolution were really untrue it would have been discovered by now. Sure it has been modified greatly since Darwin’s time, but the fundamental assertions still remain true. 

I do not worship or idolize Darwin, nor do I center my moral beliefs around evolution. That’s as ridiculous as saying we shouldn’t try to rescue people jumping from burning buildings because the Law of Gravity is responsible for their fall. Science is useful for explaining how the natural world works, now why. I believe morality is best left to philosophy and religion. Anybody who, for any reason, attempts to make scientific thought into a moral dictum is an idiot. I don’t care if it’s Darwin himself!

so_what on May 7, 2008 at 11:40 pm

You have completely missed the message of the article; Hitler(and all other eugenicists) used Darwin to justify their murderous lust for power.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 08:14 am

You have completely missed the message of the article; Hitler(and all other eugenicists) used Darwin to justify their murderous lust for power.

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 08:14 am

And this somehow makes Darwin a racist,or does it disprove his theory?

ellinas on May 8, 2008 at 10:05 am

And this somehow makes Darwin a racist,or does it disprove his theory?

False dichotomy.  Are those the only two choices you could come up with?
I repeat: the Eugenics movement(which includes Hitler and Margaret Sanger, among others) used Darwin’s Theory to justify their action.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 10:11 am

And because the Eugenics movement(which includes Hitler and Margaret Sanger, among others) used Darwin’s Theory to justify their action, somehow invalidates Darwins theories?
Come on! You can do better than that.

ellinas on May 8, 2008 at 11:20 am

I never said any such thing.  You’re making things up again.  I’m sorry this fairly simple article is over your head, but that’s not my problem.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 11:35 am

Robert108:

I repeat: the Eugenics movement(which includes Hitler and Margaret Sanger, among others) used Darwin’s Theory to justify their action.

That is hardly news of course.  But that in itself is no inditement of Darwin.  The eye opener here are Darwin’s own words, provided that is an accurate quote of course.

Carrick on May 8, 2008 at 02:51 pm

Carrick: I just see this as science without any moral restraint.  Eugenics was wildly popular amongst the cognoscenti until Hitler gave it a bad smell, but IMO it’s still a very attractive concept to a certain type of intellectual.  Like Hitler, those intellectuals have a strong desire to deny the existence of God, so their “science” is really in service of their baser instincts.
I have never “indicted” Darwin; I just regard his thinking as incomplete.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 03:11 pm

Carrick: Just to be clear, I don’t think the mechanistic explanation for creation and evolution is either complete or accurate in totality.  There is much more to humanity than genes and characteristics.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 03:32 pm

Well, we agree on that.

To be clear, I was just curious how much of the superstitious thinking of the time infected Darwin’s brain.

Carrick on May 8, 2008 at 03:48 pm

To be clear, I was just curious how much of the superstitious thinking of the time infected Darwin’s brain.

I’m not sure what you mean by “superstitious thinking”, but in a society built on a foundation of hereditary classes, with a history of tribalism, the idea that some people are just better than others is pretty much a given, don’t you think?  I believe that is why Eugenics was so popular then; I believe it’s still popular today with certain groups of people, but they just don’t reveal their thinking publicly.
To me, the whole concept of the United States ran counter to that old way of thinking, vesting power in individuals rather than groups, and is directly responsible for the progress we have made in such a short time.  It would be a mistake to fall back into that sort of mindset, due to some slavish ideological adherence to “secular humanism” and “socialism”.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 05:06 pm

There is no mystery to the fact that once man developed a theory that made them the superior species, the next step of seeing parts of that species as being inferior to other parts was an easy one to make and the idea that some inferior human beings should be eliminated by natural causes or by human intervention that one part of the human species might rule every aspect of life was no giant leap.

There is no mystery that once we viewed the human species as being the superior species, to admit the existence of a higher being would cause man to no longer enjoy their superiority. Thus, human developed science had to sooner or later reject any causes for life that entertained the idea of a Supreme Designer.

As to evolution versus Intelligent Design or Divine Creation; neither evolution nor creation can be either confirmed or falsified scientifically. As to the evolution model and the Creation Model, a ‘model” is a conceptual framework, an orderly system of thouight, within which one tries to correlate observable data. If evolution is taking place today as it must be if evolution is a fact, it operates too slowly to be measureable, and therefore, is outside the realm of empirical science. The experimental method is an impossibility when applied to evolution. The creation model too is oustide empirical science, although it predicts the measureable data.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 8, 2008 at 05:41 pm
Avatar for so_what

Neiman:

Science is not chiefly concerned with things that are 100% observable. We have a rather extensive fossil record as well as the geologic column. Forensic scientists solve crimes everyday using tests and experiments in the place of human observation. This is because we know how certain materials respond to certain elements such as fire, rain, chemicals, etc. Scientists are able to apply known laws and theories to solve mysteries that were not observed by anyone. For me, the excuse that neither evolution nor creationism are provable or falsifiable is quite lame. Debate the merits of the evidence for evolution if you wish, but don’t be so ignorant as to say there’s no way to know for sure. Creationism has no evidence of it’s own it is merely a framework of accusations about the falsity of evolution. Even if the theory of evolution were to be proven wrong it does not mean that Creationism is correct.

I for one see no reason that science should have any bearing on morality. I think the theory of evolution is correct but when I’m in an ethical dilemna I don’t think “What would Darwin do?” It’s kinda like how I feel about music. There are many bands that I love but I do not share their religious/political point of view. So what? I like their music not their worldview. I would think an intelligent person would be able to separate such matters.

robert108:

I really don’t get your point. People have used Christianity to justify all kinds of evil things, but it doesn’t mean Christianity is evil. An evil person like Hitler was just trying to legitimize his cause by associating it with someone who was considered (in some circles) to be respectable. I think he would have done his attrocious acts without Darwin but of course there’s no way to prove that. To me it doesn’t matter what Darwin thought about humanity I am only concerned if his science was legitimate. Many religions have also thought themselves superior to the rest of humanity. The Jews in the Old Testament, Muslims, the Catholic Church, etc. Mankind has found many different reasons to justify the opression of others that are different. I do not think this by any means unique to Darwin.

Hell, this blog is a good example of another superiority complex based on politics. Conservatives think they’re better than liberals, liberals think they’re better than conservatives. I have visited many conservative and liberal blogs and I hear the exact same accusatiions thrown at the other side. In fact, you could easiliy make a Mad Lib where you just inserted a political point of view and it would pretty much work for any political blog. Example:

All ___________ think they’re better than everyone else.

__________ are dogmatic and refuse to examine actual evidence. They are only concerned with furthering their own point of view.

The _____________ party pretends to care about people but it’s just a charade to get votes.

______________ are just pandering to a demographic to get votes.

I’m personally quite sick of both sides. It’s just a stupid playground clique mentality where like-minded people gather to preach to the choir. If any of you self-righteous jerks actually spent a fraction of the time and energy that is consumed by criticizing the other side while you pat yourselves on the back, we might actually get some things done around here. I think it’s much easier to sit around and bitch about what’s wrong and blame it all on the other guys than it is to actually do something meaningful. This is directed to liberals as well. You are all hypocrites and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

so_what on May 8, 2008 at 07:40 pm

I really don’t get your point.

I agree; your screed shows a complete ignorance of my point.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 08:23 pm

I’m personally quite sick of both sides. It’s just a stupid playground clique mentality where like-minded people gather to preach to the choir… I think it’s much easier to sit around and bitch about what’s wrong and blame it all on the other guys than it is to actually do something meaningful. This is directed to liberals as well. You are all hypocrites and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Phew!  I sure hope you feel better after all that.  Still, the question remains, if political discussions and disagreements over how we are to govern ourselves and deal with the world around us are so agitating to you, and so clearly beyond your comprehension, much less patience, what are you doing here in the first place???


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 8, 2008 at 08:38 pm

Creationism has no evidence of it’s own it is merely a framework of accusations about the falsity of evolution.

Not so, there is plenty of evidence to strongly suggest that the unverse was ‘designed’ and not a random happening.

Even if the theory of evolution were to be proven wrong it does not mean that Creationism is correct.

The very reason that the creation subject needs to be wide open for ALL considerations.


Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

docdave on May 8, 2008 at 08:48 pm
Avatar for so_what

docdave:

Evidence of design? I think not. There are people who so badly wish to find design that they “find” it. If you have already come to a conclusion and are simply looking for a way to prove it you will find exactly what you’re looking for. Creationists jumble a lot of bad science together and make non-scientific inferences and implications. And you thought the global warming fanatics were bad! It’s the same thing with Creationists: they already know the answers, now they just need to prove it. If you have ever read books like “The Panda’s Thumb” you’ll see what a joke design is. There are many flawed behaviors, organs and other oddities that would make a “creator” blush with shame.

The problem with Creationism is it is not falsifiable. I cannot prove a universal negative. There is no way to state “there absolutely is no God.” One can only point to a lack of evidence supporting such a conclusion. Anyways, I don’t think it’s the job of science to be involved with supernatural things. How can we empirically study what is beyond our natural senses? Is there any objective way to measure the supernatural? All we have are a lot of people who believe in the supernatural and they simply interpret things as being proof of the supernatural. I have no problem with a person having spiritual beliefs, but keep it in the spiritual realm. It does not make sense to try and base scientific principles around things that are beyond the material world.

robert108:

Well, if indeed I am so ignorant, please show me the error of my ways. Please tell me, in one concise paragraph, exactly what your point was. Then I will debate the merits of that point. Okay, it would be hypocritical for a person as verbose as myself to demand that you write a concise paragraph. So go ahead and be lenghty if you wish.

Bat One:

I often ask myself the same question. For one thing, I don’t think I ever said that political discussions were beyond my comprehension. Like robert108, you find it comforting to assert some kind of intellectual superiority. Yes, your big words scare me. Things like “economics,” “elections” and “taxes” are beyond my ability to comprehend. The one problem I have with your statement is your assertion that this blog (and other political blogs) are actually engaging in a discussion over how to govern ourselves. Unfortunately, it seems most Americans have lost the art of civil discourse. What I finnd is that political blogs are just a bunch of people who already agree reaffirming their beliefs. A few opposing voices come along, and most of them are quite whacky. These opposing voices usually just spew insults with no real substance. Then, the mob jumps all over them and hurls insults back, once again making statements without substance. Nobody is discussing anything, they are simply yelling their point of view and shouting down any dissent. It is not just the democrats who do this, though I’m sure it’s what you all think.

so_what on May 8, 2008 at 09:25 pm

Well, if indeed I am so ignorant, please show me the error of my ways.

I already did, and you didn’t get it.  Tell you what; instead of trying to snipe at what I said, why don’t you explain the congruence between Darwin’s pronouncements and those of the Eugenicists?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 8, 2008 at 09:47 pm

so_what,

First, the ephemera:  I don’t recall suggesting that the words I choose are meant to intimidate anyone… you included.  I have always tried to use words with with imagination and precision, but if my choices are offensive or intimidating to you, you’re certainly free to go read someone else’s material instead.  I won’t know the difference, or care.

Your view of political blogs in general, and this one in particular strikes me as simplistic and short-sighted.  But then, I’ve been here a good deal longer than you.  Many of the regulars here at SAB are open to ideas beyond our own, and there have been many spirited debates between those of us on opposite sides of the partisan aisle and among those of us who label ourselves “conservatives” as well.  Much of the nattering back and forth has gone on for quite some time among the particular participants, and while it can get heated, there is rarely much actual personal animosity involved… ad hominem and heated invective notwithstanding.

Perhaps if you spent more time here, and viewed that participation as more personal and less that of a nanny, you’d find yourself a lot less “sure of what you all think.”


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 8, 2008 at 10:25 pm

Evidence of design? I think not. There are people who so badly wish to find design that they “find” it.

And where is the evidence that there is no design?  Where is the proof that there is no God?  Of course there isn’t any so at a minimum the question is still open.

As far as proof of design, the universe at every level is full of mysterious phenomena that are not likely to be random occurences.  Some of them are:

.the construct of atoms.  One only has to look at the complexity of a single atom to reason that it could not have just happened without some intelligent purpose.

. light - how can light be both matter (photon) and an energy wave.  By chance?  Not likely.

. the universe - Assuming the big bang, What was its source and who/what initiate the explosion? 

For your information, I am an engineer/scientist (retired) which means that I probably have been looking at this a lot longer than you.  For your information, the purpose of science is to discover what HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED and engineerings purpose is to put scientific discoveries into practical use.


Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

docdave on May 8, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Avatar for so_what

robert108:
The point I was trying to make is that I do understand what you are trying to say, but I just don’t care. I don’t look to Darwin as a moral leader so I could care or less what he thought about race issues. It’s unfortunate if Darwin was a racist but also unimportant. Like I said earlier, many people take “inspiration” from ideas and use them as justification for their evil. I don’t think we can hold Darwin responsible for Hitler’s actions anymore than we can hold the Bible responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. Though you never said it, I have heard many Creationists uses the Hitler-Darwin connection as an attack against evolution and that is just absurd.

Bat One:

Perhaps I miscommunicated. I was being sarcastic, obviously, when I said “your big words scare me.” This was in response to your assertion that the discussion was “beyond my comprehension.” But, perhaps you are right. I haven’t given up hope with blogs, but surely if you’ve visited other blogs you understand what I mean. I wouldn’t say my thoughts were short-sighted as much, more of a generalization. I have found that most people really don’t think about their political opinions and 95% of them just inherit it from their parents. One of the biggest problems is the media and for me it’s not so much as “too liberal” or “too conservative” issue. The underlying issue is the sensationalism. Most news has become more about entertainment than it has about information. I’m not saying that political bias isn’t an issue, but that the larger problem is the circus media. Everytime I turn on CNN it becomes more and more Jerry Springer-like.

docdave:

That’s cool that you’re an engineer. My little brother is a mechanical engineer and I myself am a computer scientist (which most people wouldn’t consider a real scientist, and I’m okay with that). You demonstrated perfectly well what I was talking about. There is no way to prove design, only to interpret facts as supportive of design. The examples you gave are indeed mysteries and that’s what makes science exciting: unsolved mysteries. There will always be things we don’t understand and that’s why we have research. There was a time when the cause of disease was a mystery, as was the cause of thunderstorms. We have found physical explanations for both.

My point is, using the “God in the gaps” argument is fundamentally flawed becauseit suggests that anything beyond the comprehension of current science is proof of design. Well what happens when a physical explanation is discovered? The current gaps in scientific knowledge could very well someday all be understood, but maybe not in yours or my llfetime. So it could be design or it could just be something we don’t yet understand. So to choose design as the explanation is not scientific, rather it is a belief. However, taking the other road is not based on belief, because there you are actually trying to discover what is unknown. Investigating the unknown is not the equivalent of saying you’re sure there will be an explanation, but rather you’re curious to find if there is an explanation.

Like I said before, I have no problem if someone wants to believe in design, just don’t try to pass it off as science. When it comes down to it, you decide to believe whatever it is that you want to believe.

so_what on May 9, 2008 at 12:12 am

When it comes down to it, you decide to believe whatever it is that you want to believe.

Good advice for you.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 9, 2008 at 05:53 am

It is impossible to prove scientifically any concept of origins to be true. This is obvious from the fact that the essence of the scientific method is experimental observation and repeatability. A scientist, no matter how brilliant or resurceful can neither observe or repeat origins.

The essential scientific question related to origins has to do simply with whether the evolution model or the creation model provides the more effective vehicle for correlating and predicting scientific facts of observation.

For the evolution of more advanced organisms, according to the Laws of Thermodynamics - energy must somehow be gained, order must be increased and information added. The Second Law says this will not happen in any natural process unless external factors enter in to make it happen. No matter how carefully we examine the energetics of living systems we find no evidence of any defeat of thermodynamic principles.

I find it strange and that a significant level of religious fervor exists for “so_what” and others to deny the massive evidence of complex design at the sub-atomic level to the universe itself. No life exists without complex design and that fact demands the pre-existence of a Designer greater than the thing itself. There is simply no way that random mutations over time could produce even modest design to say nothing of complex design; and when we consider that we are overwhelmed with complex design at every level of life, rational people must insist upon the pre-existence of a Designer greater than the designs themselves.

It is nonsense to suggest those Creation minded people are rejecting evolution, in the general sense of that term; and are not basing their conclusions on scientific facts in support of their life model. They have the same scientific facts as do the evolutionists, but they insist that data better fits, even predicts, within the Divine Creation Model more than it ever could in Darwinian Evolution.

Lastly, for Christians: The clear words of God in Genesis, chapter One make it perfectly clear that God created all life and there is not the slightest evidence therein that He may have used evolution as the vehicle for His Creation or that the Creation He speaks of could have taken millions or even billions of years. In fact, in Chapter One He makes it clear He created all in Six roughly 24 hour days and in Chapter Two that what we observe in nature was all created, as it had to be, with the appearance of age. So, to attempt to consign the Word of God to only speak of moral principles and deny it’s accurate descriptions of scientific principles, to the extent it does, is to deny God and His Word.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 9, 2008 at 11:51 am
Avatar for Michae LaPenna

robert108:

What can I say that hasn’t been said already. To me Evolution is a sound theory based on verifiable evidence in the patterns of nature. It matters not how bigoted Darwin was or was not. As for the gentleman who spoke prior to me and his literal interpretation of Genesis, it lacks, to me, the good sense to realize that if Creation was indeed new at the beginning of time, there may have been no rules in play to mark how many hours a day lasted. His view denies the possibility that the current state of physics, chemistry and other dynamic processes could have been different. It puts limits on God and nature and prematurely assumes a kind of static and stifled creativity on the part of either or both.

My blog: http://waxingpoetically.today.com/

Best,

Mike

Michae LaPenna on May 14, 2008 at 02:42 pm

Mike: I’ll repeat what I said before: Darwin’s flawed ideas about applying his ideas to different human beings formed the basis for a great wrong, which was eugenics.  That value system gave Hitler the justification for his horrific behavior.  You can deny this, or attempt to distract from it by bashing other beliefs, but the facts still stand.
IMO, Darwinism is flawed, and what Hitler(and others) have done with it is the evidence.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 14, 2008 at 03:35 pm

As for the gentleman who spoke prior to me and his literal interpretation of Genesis, it lacks, to me, the good sense to realize that if Creation was indeed new at the beginning of time, there may have been no rules in play to mark how many hours a day lasted. His view denies the possibility that the current state of physics, chemistry and other dynamic processes could have been different. It puts limits on God and nature and prematurely assumes a kind of static and stifled creativity on the part of either or both.

You have assumed many facts not in evidence, you took my statement and read things into it that were not contained in the actual words I used, which is not surprising, as it appears to me that the definition of all words are rather nebulous things to you.

However, assuming God is real and He inspired every word of Scripture, then if he used the same word for ‘day’ in Genesis, which is used elsewhere in Scripture and therein it refers to a roughly 24-hour period of time; and yet, He actually meant the word ‘day’ used in Genesis was an indeterminate period of time, then we cannot trust His Word anywhere else in Scripture as every word may have other meanings than are clearly used in context. He therefore would be the Divine Author of Confusion and as such cannot be God at all. That is the only clear choices: Day in Gensis means roughly what it means now or the Bible is a lie and God does not exist!

When God deliberatelty inspired his scribes to speak first of a greater light (Sun) to rule the day and a lesser light (moon) to rule the night, then He gave us His definition of what the word ‘day’ actually means, he was very specific in his definition, it meant a roughly 24-hour day as it does now. To say ‘day’ in Genesis can mean an undeterminate period of time, even eons, is to torture the clear language beyond all meaning whatsoever.

You are free to accept the facts as stated, you are free to try and force a definition into the word ‘day’ that is not only not supported by the context, that is thoroughly refuted by Scripture. But, to be fair you must then admit that not one ancient document of any kind means what the words clearly state, they are altogether meaningless. I guess it is a matter of “what the definition of is - is?”

Lastly, I do limit God to His own word, He either stands or falls on the absolute trustworthy nature of every word of Holy Writ as can readily be understood by the average adherent, or Christianity is a most damnable lie and Darwinian Science is the only true God and scientists its only priests. However, for Christianity to have so long existed and Christ to have so changed the world, this lie itself would have to be miraculous in nature.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 14, 2008 at 04:42 pm

Mike: I’ll repeat what I said before: Darwin’s flawed ideas about applying his ideas to different human beings formed the basis for a great
wrong, which was eugenics. That value system gave Hitler the justification for his horrific behavior. You can deny this, or attempt to distract from it by bashing other beliefs, but the facts still stand.

”Darwin’s flawed ideas” predate Darwin, and can be traced by to primitive tribal behavior.  There are “stone age” cultures in Borneo in which members of other tribes are viewed as demons (whom one eats to destroy their soul).  Even the field of Eugenics itself predates Darwin, and parts of it (state control of who can marry whom—See Plato’s Republic) can be found in Plato’s writings.

In the end, though, it seems incredibly crass to try and use the horrific crimes of the Nazis as a stick to beat up the theory of evolution.  Science, which is just a tool, didn’t make these people into monsters, anymore than a gun, another tool, turns a person into a mass murderer.

Carrick on May 15, 2008 at 12:03 pm

In the end, though, it seems incredibly crass to try and use the horrific crimes of the Nazis as a stick to beat up the theory of evolution.

I have done no such thing, and neither has the author of the article.  It is simply an illustration of commonality of thought.
You claim that the theory of evolution is scientific, but it has taken on cult status as a religion, and anyone speaking against it or questioning it is treated as a heretic.  If it’s so “scientific”, why is this behavior necessary?

Your argument is essentially in the form of “look at what others have done”, which doesn’t do anything to dispute the commonality of thought between Darwin and Hitler.  I never claimed that Hitler invented the concept of either race hatred or mass murder, either, but what difference does that make?  The crimes are just as monstrous, no matter who has done it before.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Robert108:

You claim that the theory of evolution is scientific, but it has taken on cult status as a religion, and anyone speaking against it or questioning it is treated as a heretic. If it’s so “scientific”, why is this behavior
necessary?

False dichotomy.

A theory can be scientific, that doesn’t stop society from forming a cult around it.  See “cult of the gun”.  Not that there is a cult around it:  If anything there is a cult of denialism spends a great deal of energy trying to unexplain things described more elegantly using evolution.

These are your own words:

Darwin’s flawed ideas about applying his ideas to different human beings formed the basis for a great wrong, which was eugenics.  That value system gave Hitler the justification for his horrific behavior. 

Without an enormous supply of weasel words, I’m not sure how you can shoe-horn your new augments into that latter one “commonality of thought” versus “justification for behavior”.

My point is that the “justification for the behavior” predated Darwin’s time, and appears to be seeded in innate human behavior.  Given this, the fact that there is commonality between a scientific theory and a line of though going back many millennia isn’t particularly edifying.

I’ve got a lot on my plate this afternoon, so I probably won’t have an opportunity to reply to any comments you may make on this, so let this serve as my final thoughts on this matter.

Carrick on May 15, 2008 at 12:17 pm

What part of “...formed the basis...” don’t you understand?  The ideas behind eugenics(or the theory of eugenics, if you prefer that language) were based on Darwin’s teachings.  As I have said several times already, that doesn’t, in itself, make evolution false, but it does make for a very unsavory association, no matter how much you might want to deny it.
The comparison of Darwin’s and Hitler’s words speaks for itself.
My opinion of the flaws of evolution theory are a separate matter.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Carrick: In the same way that you believe that some of global warming hypothesis is true, but the size and scope of possible human contribution is exaggerated by its adherents, I think some parts of evolution theory are true, but the overall size and scope of the claims by its adherents are exaggerated, especially the extrapolation(not by Darwin) of a Godless universe, acting on random probability.  That’s just ridiculous.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 12:30 pm
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