Say Anything Blog

Right, and 9/11 was a Bush plot.

Seriously, get a clue.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Mike:  A favorite tactic of Hitler was to stir up ethnic Germans living in foreign territory; getting them to demand ‘independence’ and greater alliance with the ‘Fatherland’ as he did in Austria, Danzig, and many other places .

Then, when the local government sent in troops to quell the insurrection - as Edvard Benes’ did in Czechoslovkia in 1939 - Hitler would pounce, claiming he had to stop the violence and restore order.

Does it not occur to you that wily Putin has stirred up ethnic Russians in South Ossetia in just such a move?

Force Gerogia’s hand and then claim that they started it.

You and Neville Chamberlain share a similar mind-set: Blame the victim, agree with the aggressor and walk away.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Well, this is mainstream media telling you that they were here, not some conspiracy, corner of the web website. So if you can information that proves that this specific BBC video is somehow false, then I’d like to see it.

Otherwise, don’t just roll your eyes and say, “that’s not trueee!” because it doesn’t amount to crap. And my question for pparets is, why are you so sure Russia is the agressor, especially after this BBC video proving otherwise?

Why does it have to be some far-fetched conspiracy to even CONSIDER that western media LIES?

All I’m saying is, back it up.

How was Georgia
“forced”
into invading S.Ossetia?

P.S. Georgia is not the
local gov’t in S.Ossetia.

MikeLiberty:  The BBC footage isn’t false… only the premis is.

Did you actually take the time to read my post on how this kind of ‘invasion’ is done?

BTW: I don’t visit obscure ‘conspiracy’ websites.

Do some research. Were the South Ossetians recently clamoring for ‘independence’ and greater ties to Mother Russia?  Yes, indeed!  A move which would have gutted Georgia.

Follow this link:
http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=37203

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

From the link above, for your general edification…

Despite repeated rounds of negotiations sponsored by the OSCE, the ultimate status of South Ossetia is still unresolved. The government in Tskhinvali has maintained its demand for full independence, but many observers suspect that it really seeks unification with its ethnic brethren in North Ossetia across the Russian border (AUTGR203 = 1; AUTGR303 = 2). In December 2000, Moscow placed travel restrictions on Georgian nationals, necessitating a visa for anyone wishing to enter the North Caucasus. However, these restrictions did not apply to citizens of the two break-away republics, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. This was widely interpreted as an attempt to further undermine Tblisi’s influence in these regions, and is another reason why some observers have called the South Ossetians “de facto Russian citizens.”

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

This is a legitimate reason to invade?

The government in Tskhinvali has maintained its demand for full independence, but many observers suspect that it really seeks unification with its ethnic brethren in North Ossetia across the Russian border

Quite a stretch to legitimatize Georgian tanks
in the S Ossetia.

woof:  WE would be faced with a similar dilemma if Texas wanted to return to ‘Mother Mexico’.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Were the South Ossetians recently clamoring for ‘independence’ and greater ties to Mother Russia?  Yes, indeed!  A move which would have gutted Georgia.

S. Ossetia first declared independence in 1992.  They have been working towards independence since than.  Autonomous regions are generally created to appease a region of a country that does not want to be part of that country.  Kosovo was an autonomous region.  The Kurdish region in Iraq is an autonomous region.  Autonomous regions often have their own military.

Would you support the Iraqi Army attacking the Kurds in the north of Iraq?  Than you should not accept the Georgian military attacking South Ossetia just because they are nominally part of Georgia.

If the Mexicans invaded Texas the same day Georgia invaded S, Ossetia and bombed Austin, I imagine American tanks would have already reached the Guatemalan border.
There would not be a Mexican television station on the air or a Mexican phone that worked.
At home, Homeland Security would have filled interment camps with every Jose and
Maria it could find.
We would, mistakenly, send a cruise missile into the Chinese Embassy

Rob, with all due respect, it’s documented that the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia preceded the Russia force movement by several days.

It’s a fantasy to compare Georgian troop movements to the rightful action of any sovereign government.  Most Ossetians don’t want them there, and haven’t since the extreme tactics that the Georgian government employed to attempt to quell the independence movement in South Ossetia.

The distinction with Texas is that Texans obviously want to remain part of the US.  It’s actually pretty obvious the Ossetians want autonomous rule.  But it’s not obvious to me how allowing them their own destiny would “gut Georgia” as pparets suggests…

Rob, with all due respect, it’s documented that the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia preceded the Russia force movement by several days.

It’s a fantasy to compare Georgian troop movements to the rightful action of any sovereign government.

I don’t doubt that you’re right, and that Georgia was in the wrong as far as that goes, but to suggest that Russia isn’t using this as a pretext for an aggressive move against Georgia is nonsense.

And let’s not forget Russia’s role in whipping up the separatists in the disputed region.  Russia wanted this war, and Georgia was dumb enough to take the bait.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

...It’s not obvious to me…

If you look at the map, you will see that a so-called independent South Ossetia ‘guts’ Georgia almost to it’s geographic core.  Odd, isn’t it, that North Ossetia isn’t ‘independent’ inside Russian territory and never will be.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

LOL, Pparets you gamed that a bit with your zoomed map of South Ossetia.

Why do you hate Ossetians?  Why shouldn’t they be allowed a say in who governs them?

Is it because Georgia is an important ally and that outweighs any wrong that Georgia does?

I thought we had left that mentality behind with the fall of the Soviet Union.

South Ossetia self-identity is firmly rooted in the excessive tactics that the Georgian military used to quell insurgents in the early 1990s.  That is a long-standing fact.

Personally, I see the independence of the Ossetians as an issue separate from Russia using their plight as a pretext to re-assert dominance over Georgia.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

but to suggest that Russia isn’t using this as a pretext for an aggressive move against Georgia is nonsense.

Well definitely agree with you.

I just wanted to make it clear that 1) Georgia has a long-standing record of human rights abuse when it comes to South Ossetia, and 2) the particular catalyst for Russian involvement was yet another heavy handed (politely speaking) Georgian response to the Ossetian insurgency.

Obviously the Russians kicked Georgia’s butt pretty good, but I also think they overreached a bit, as events in Poland have illustrated.  Maybe this is a case of winning the battle but losing the war?

If their goal is to intimidate their neighbors and limited Western involvement, I think it has backfired.  If anything, Georgia (even with its warts) is even more firmly on our radar now, as are the other Balkan and Slavic nations.  And the Russians have made it clear the importance of a Western alliance to guard against Russian aggression.

Personally, I see the independence of the Ossetians as an issue separate from Russia using their plight as a pretext to re-assert dominance over Georgia.

Well I agree there too.  They are separate issues.

Not that I think this “reassertion of dominance” has worked out that well.  What it has done is provide a pretext for increased US presence there.

Carrick:

You gamed that

I would hope that you know I do not indulge in that kind of subterfuge.

Why do you hate Ossetians?

Don’t be absurd.  Until a few days ago, I hardly knew they existed.  You probably didn’t either.

That outweighs any wrong that Georgia does?

Well, of course not.  Neither Russia, nor Georgia gives a rats-ass about Ossetians. Russia cares about keeping Georgia in their economic/political orbit.  Georgia cares about maintaining their territorial sovereignty.

… that mentality behind with the fall of the soviet union.

I submit that what we are seeing here is the first step in the resurgence of that Union and that mentality.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Not that I think this “reassertion of dominance” has worked out that well.  What it has done is provide a pretext for increased US presence there.

Well nobody has accused the Russians of being smart.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Carrick:  Why do you suppose that 5 heads of state of former Soviet satellites flew to georgia in a show of support?

http://www.president.ee/en/duties/?gid=114161

They recognize the bear coming when they see it!

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Yea, that’s all interesting and all....

But the Georgians are claiming retaliation against Ossetian hostilities. If true, this does indeed make the Georgians the good guys. And given a history of behavior to lend plausibility...Mike’s point is useless. No one denies Georgia was there first. WHY they’re there is the important part.

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.

See, Mike liberty, the problem is you are putting the false premise forward that Kokoyev and his Russian generated “independence” fighters are fighting for independence, when in fact Russia will grant no such thing, and Kokoyev and his Free Ossetia “soldiers” know it. The entire point, since 1991, of the Военный Ум Служба has been to undermine the government of Georgia, and the other former slave states of the Soviet Union. To keep them at each other’s throats. They have been only partially successful, and now are simply moving to seize the primary ground transport lines and oil/gas pipelines and service infrastructure, while BBC reports how the Russians are “pulling out” by fortifying positions along the East-West transverse highway and railway. Deep inside the country of Georgia.

Hows about you dig up BBC video of Kokoyev and his “freedom fighters” activities over the last 2 years, 6 years, 15 years?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Pparets:

I would hope that you know I do not indulge in that kind of subterfuge.

Then why the absurd graphic that zooms in on South Ossetia?

Don’t be absurd.  Until a few days ago, I hardly knew they existed.  You probably didn’t either.

LOL.  You’d be wrong.  I wouldn’t have known who they were before the 1990-91 Georgia-South Ossetia war, but I’ve been following their situation since then.  I’ll remind you that the Bessian school crisis also occurred in North Ossetia territory. 

Anyway, I hope you know I was teasing you on “hating the Ossetians”.

Neither Russia, nor Georgia gives a rats-ass about Ossetians

I think you are mistaken about that.  The majority of South Ossetians hold dual Russian passports.  Russia regards them as being under their sphere of protection, and responded accordingly:  This wasn’t just a pretext for action, they had good reason to respond.

I’m not arguing that it didn’t also serve their other larger-picture strategic aims, which may have been why they responded on such a scale as they did.  I just would argue that simply demonizing Russia on this is highly simplistic and misses the historical context in which this conflict arose…

I submit that what we are seeing here is the first step in the resurgence of that Union and that mentality.

Well for Russia to act like a super power they need to be a bit more of a de factosuper power</i>.  About the only thing going right for them at the moment is the European money that is flowing in for oil.  Other than that, their country is in shambles, with a near lawlessness existing outside of the major cities.

That hardly qualifies them for “super-power” status.

Carrick:  Why do you suppose that 5 heads of state of former Soviet satellites flew to georgia in a show of support?

It’s not an either or situation.  I’m simply trying to inject a bit more context.

Georgia invading South Ossetia was a bit like throwing the rabbit into the briar patch.

However, I would also argue that while their aim of restoring South Ossetia autonomy has been mostly met, it certainly has undercut their effort to limit Western involvement in neighboring states.  As I mentioned to Rob, it has if anything put Georgia on the world map again.

Rob

Russia wanted this war, and Georgia was dumb enough to take the bait.

You nailed it.

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.”

Irving Kristol

The English TIMES Online posted this recently, which is something from their archives and originally posted on September 17, 1924.  Not sure how long this link will be good for, but in the event that it is not, the article describes Soviet atrocities against the Georgians.

As if what the Russians have done thus far and continue to do is not bad enough, they are ratcheting up the tension in Europe:  Russia’s new nuclear challenge to Europe

Russia is considering arming its Baltic fleet with nuclear warheads for the first time since the cold war, senior military sources warned last night.

The move, in response to American plans for a missile defence shield in Europe, would heighten tensions raised by the advance of Russian forces to within 20 miles of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, yesterday.

Under the Russian plans, nuclear warheads could be supplied to submarines, cruisers and fighter bombers of the Baltic fleet based in Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave between the European Union countries of Poland and Lithuania. A senior military source in Moscow said the fleet had suffered from underfunding since the collapse of communism. “That will change now,” said the source.
Related Links

In view of America’s determination to set up a missile defence shield in Europe, the military is reviewing all its plans to give Washington an adequate response.

The proposal to bring back nuclear warheads was condemned by Kurt Volker, the US ambassador to Nato, who said he knew of the threat.

It is really unfortunate that Russia chooses to react by putting nuclear warheads in different places – if indeed it does that – when the rest of the world is not looking at some kind of old-fashioned superpower conflict, he said.

The warnings came 24 hours after Russia told Poland that it could face a nuclear strike for agreeing to let the United States station components of the missile defence shield on its soil.

The Russian military also said it would ignore attempts to restrict the movement of its Black Sea fleet in and out of Sebastopol, in Ukraine. The Crimean port was emerging as a potential flashpoint in Russia’s efforts to prevent former Soviet countries on its borders from joining Nato.

This weekend Ukraine further angered Russian officials by offering to create a joint missile defence network with western countries.

The Russians have already indicated that they may point nuclear missiles at western Europe from bases in Kaliningrad and Belarus. They are also said to be thinking of reviving a military presence in Cuba.

In Georgia, Russian forces extended their reach across the west of the country yesterday, occupying several towns, seizing control of a main road and blowing up a railway bridge. Working with Abkhazian fighters they seized several Georgian villages and the Enguri power station. They pulled out of Igoeti, a village near the capital, after President Dmitry Medvedev signed a ceasefire agreement. The deal gave the Russians the right to continue patrolling “a few miles” inside Georgia. President George W Bush called the signing a “hopeful step”.

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, seized the initiative with a lightning trip to Tbilisi, becoming the first British politician to meet President Mikhail Saakashvili since the conflict began. Critics have accused government ministers of dithering.

Writing in today’s Sunday Times, Cameron says: Russian armies can’t march into other countries while Russian shoppers carry on marching into Selfridges.

...for great justice

Carrick:  The map of South Ossetia I provded was taken directly from the source website.  No zoom, no enlarge, no crop, no photoshop.

Feel free to provide any map which will make your comfort-level rise.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan