Say Anything Blog

Enjoyed reading about your personal spiritual journey. I am not an atheist. 

I am hoping for theological unraveling in a thread of many responses to your question.

So the question is: if you consider yourself an aetheist, what is the basis for your belief?

Dave, you stated what you don’t believe in god which doesn’t answer the question.  If you don’t believe in a god, what do you believe in?

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Atheism, as I understand it, says that nothing exists except those things within the physical world; and man is solely a stimulus-response mechanism, without a spirit or a soul, we are just a lump of protein molecules wired together with nerves, an electrical-chemical mechanism. Man’s behavior is learned from his direct and collective experiences; therefore, man cannot even think of or fantasize about something that does not exist in the physical realm, the realm of all his experiences.

Yet, animals don’t have any Divine Beings (gods) within their physical world to experience, so why or how would the man-animal ever create such a fantasy, which is completely outside his physical experiences? Oh, I know it was the evil clergy, other man-animals, and they invented God to control the masses and enrich themelves. Okay, just for the sake of argument, we’ll suppose that is the truth! But, where did these man-animal clergy people ever get this idea of a God, if no one can think of anything that doesn’t actually exist. What was the stimulus for this God fantasy? Surely, if God does not exist then no one could have dreamed Him up, they would have nothing in this world on which to build such a fantasy.

None of this proves God exists, yet without being able to explain how anyone conceived of a Divine Being outside his own experiences, where did this idea come from? It is worthy of note that every civilization since the dawn of man has in fact, in early human history independent of each other, conceived of a Divine Creator; even those without a clergy, which doctor, medicine man or whatever you choose to call them fantasized about a Divine Being that controlled the universe and to Whom they would one day be answerable. Kind of amazing for an electrical-chemical animal having no direct experience upon which to think of the existence of a God.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Atheism ranges from Buddhism, to New Age “spiritualism” to scientific materialism (a.k.a. naturalistic physicalism). I am in the third camp: Everything that exists comprises the physical universe, and everything we know, we know by virtue of our natural senses and our natural reason.

I would reply to Neiman that we imagine things that do not exist all the time (i.e. novels). Furthermore, we do not have a concept of a “transcendent” or supernatural being: Transcendent and supernatural being 50 cent words for “undefinable”. Our notions about God are so obviously anthropomorphic that human imagination is a sufficient explanation.

Barefoot: First, no atheist will ever be convinced of anything by these discussions. So, no one should imagine these debates would be thus productive.

I would submit everything we readcin novels, see in films or stories we hear are all based solely, wholly upon the things we can relate to within the physical realm, they may imagine them in different forms, but always those mutations can be related to something in the physical world.

As to “notions about God are so obviously anthropomorphic that human imagination is a sufficient explanation,” human beings have thus attributed human forms or characteristics to a god, but those things relate directly to the physical world. However, I would submit that a purely spiritual, divine being outside all space and time and absent human characteristics is not part of our human experiences in the physical world; and thus, He cannot be conceived of if man is a electrical-chemical, stimulus-response mechanism, rather than a being with a soul and spirit, which soul and spirit can easily conceive of a Spirit Being because spiritual existence is part of their experiences.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Dave, What do you believe happens to us after death?
Anyone who wants to answer that please do..  Just curious.

Melissa: That is one of my daughters names! She is the mother of my grandson and my buddy Anthony, he is 15 years old. I have 3 other daughters, my only son gave his life on March 18, 2005, and I have 5 granddaughters and two other grandsons.

I wrote a book on the subject of death and dying, which I cannot refer you to, because it was a very limited publication, most copies of it are in the library of a Southern California Seminary, I have one and my co-author has the other.

Most world religions have differing ideas of the afterlife and my explanation is based on my extensive study of the Judeo-Christian faith and my Christian faith. So, to offer you what I believe is, in my opinion, the only correct answer, it will be countered in following posts.

As soul-spirit beings, I believe everyone continues in conscious existence outside space and time for all eternity. Those who have rejected Salvation which is by God’s Grace through faith in Jesus substitutionary death on our behalf; would suffer endless, conscious existence in absolute darkness, totally alone forever. God has said those souls will suffer as if in a torment of fire without end. On the other hand, those accepting Christ will have conscious eternal life, versus the endless existence for the lost, and that eternal life is perfect and complete in every way with our having immortal bodies like that which Christ had after His resurrection from the dead. This answer is based on Holy Scripture, which took me well over 100,000 words, including exhaustive endnotes and footnotes to present; so you’ll forgive me if the above is rather brief, but I assure you that it is based on a very careful and complete study of Scripture and other religious beliefs, it is not just my opinion or a matter of my private interpretation of Scripture.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Atheism ranges from Buddhism, to New Age “spiritualism” to scientific materialism

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Buddhism is a religion thst says that the humans through meditation and good works can elevate themsleves to higher and higher levels until they reach Nirvana when they become god like.  To me, this type of religion is atheistic only the the sense that there is no external god but there is the potential for an internal one within the self.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Neiman, I you don’t my asking, what happen to your son?

oppps, If instead of I

I dont want whistler to come after me for that mistake…

Dang it! I must be tired..  Neiman, if you dont mind my asking what happen to your son?

If you don’t believe in a god, what do you believe in?

What do you think happens to us when we pass away?

Why do you assume anything happens to us after death?

I am not assuming anything..  I know.. I was just wonder what dav knows.

wondering**

Atheists do not have anything in common except the disbelief of god/religion.  They do not have a belief system.  What us atheists know to be reality does not require belief because there is evidence.  Religion lacks this.  Whenever Christians are asked for proof, they just refer to the Bible, which is not proof.  Why must you assume that atheists BELIEVE something.  Is it so hard for you to imagine someone relying on logic and reason instead of superstition and hocus pocus?

William, what do you think happens when we leave this world?

Melissa
We don’t leave this world until we are done rotting. As we rot, nitrogens and other such crap escapes into the earth and helps push up the grass, the fruit trees… and some mother eats the fruit and grows a baby with the nutrients and energy.

Unless you were referring to Neil Armstrong. We all saw footage of him when he left the world.

William
This is nonsense bro:

[Atheists] do not have a belief system.  What us atheists know to be reality does not require belief because there is evidence.

Speak for yourself, nonsense boy. You have evidence that doesn’t lead you to have beliefs? How wasted can one be this early?

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

When I die?  Who cares?  I will be dead.  Why is it always the same with you people?  Why the death fetish?  I have one life and I am going to enjoy it!  You can set barriers for yourself and repress your natural feelings all you want, but I am free and I will not be corrupted.

What us atheists know to be reality does not require belief because there is evidence.

Contraire, william, you do believe in something.  That belief is centered on the absoluteness of your knowledge which for you accounts for everything and anything.  Foolish man!!!  If you know everything, tell me how light is both matter and energy simultaneously, a question that still baffles the best and greatest scientist.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

I am well aware that I do not know everything.  The more I learn, the more I begin to realize just how little I know.  The difference is that I am capable of altering my views based on the evidence presented.  There is no evidence of the existence of invisible men.  You cannot prove the existence of god and whole idea of a supreme being is irrational and out of scope with reality.  I refuse to put restrictions on my freedom based on 2000 year old superstition.  Do not speak of atheists until you actually understand what you are talking about.  I would not want to change your beliefs even if I could because I am for freedom above all else.  I just want to let you know that your perception of atheists is completely wrong.

Do not speak of atheists until you actually understand what you are talking about.  I would not want to change your beliefs even if I could because I am for freedom above all else.  I just want to let you know that your perception of atheists is completely wrong.

Amazing that you have contradictorial statements in adjacent sentences.  In one sentence, you tell me what I should or should not post (I must remind you that the name of this site is SayAnything) and on the very next sentence that you ‘are for freedom’.

The other mistake you made was saying the my ‘perception of atheist is completely wrong’.  I have no preception except that I strongly suspect that everyone has a belief in something.  Did you read the article?  I was merely inquiring what sthiests believe since they say they don’t believe in deities.  The only thing you have done in your comments is dodge the question by being defense.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Do not speak of atheists until you actually understand what you are talking about.  I would not want to change your beliefs even if I could because I am for freedom above all else.

What we have here is the old “chickenhawk” argument all dressed up in the rhetorical equivalent of “Sunday-go-to-meeting” finery.  Phooey!

You may think of yourself as being “for freedom above all else,” but that hardly resonates with a command for someone else not to speak… whether they know what they’re talking about or not.  Apparently the “freedom” you hold so dear is only your own, and extends to no one else?  But if someone else strikes you as not being knowledgeable enough about the subject (this one, or any other, I’d assume), they are to be quiet?

That’s not freedom, pal.  That’s witless, leftwing sanctimony trying once more to pass itself off as wisdom.  What a crock!!!

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Melissa: I have spoken here about my son only when approriate to make a point, but if you don’t mind I’ll not reply to your question as it is too painful to recall. It will be hard enough for me when I spend time with his daughter and my granddaughter this week-end.

While everyone is free to accept or reject the idea of a Divine Creator, the proposition that Christians operate out of blind faith, absent solid evidence in support of their belief is ludicrous on its face. True faith can only be founded upon fact, not upon feelings or emotions or intuition. Other people may examine the same facts and for reasons of bias, ignorance or some other cause reach contrary conclusions; but the wise Christian that can trust in God does so based on sound evidence, as that evidence justifies their faith to act upon it.

1. We have all around us, from the tiniest part of the atom to the vastness of the universe absolute, unmistakable and unimpeachable evidence of incredibly complex design. The idea of even one complex design resulting from random mutations over time is so remote that it exists in the realm of the impossible; and when you add in the incalculable number of incredibly complex things existening in our universe, a wise man must rule out the idea of random mutations over time being a cerdible abswer for the existence of life. The existence of complex design throughout the entire universe demands the pre-existence of a Designer, and that designer by necessity must be many times greater than the sum total of all His complex designs.

2. Still none of this proves God exists, only that a Designer must have existed before all things of the universe came into existence out of nothing. We can examine the biblical accounts of historical facts, the archeological discoveries and the extra-biblical documents and evidences regarding and in support of these biblical accounts and then we must use our rational minds to conclude what all that evidence really means. What is the most rational explanation for the evidence, what does it all mean:

“Your religion is anti-scientific,” the judge said . . ., to which the accused girl – a student – answered: “Do you know more science than Einstein, than Newton?  They have been believers. Our universe [even] bears Einstein’s name. I have learned in high school that its name is the Einsteinian universe. Einstein writes: ‘If we cleanse the Judaism of the prophets and Christianity as Jesus taught it from what came afterwards, especially from priestcraft, we have a religion which can save the world from all social evils. It is the holy duty of every man to do his utmost to bring this religion to triumph.’ And remember the great physiologist Pavlov! Do not their own books say that he was a Christian? Even Marx, in his preface to the ‘Capital’ said that ‘Christianity, especially in the Protestant form, is the ideal religion for remaking characters destroyed by sin.’ I had a character destroyed by sin. Marx has taught me to become a Christian in order to remake it. How can Marxists or atheists judge me for this?” “To the same accusation of having an anti-scientific religion, a Christian answered before [the] Court: “I am sure, Mr. Judge, that you are not such a great scientist as Simpson, the discoverer of chloroform and many other medicines. He, when he was asked which he considers to be his greatest discovery, answered” ‘It was not chloroform. My greatest discovery has been to know that I am a sinner and that I could be saved be the grace of God?’”

These are but anecdotal stories and not evidence of anything except that, these men and innumerable great scientists and philosophers throughout human history, after long and careful examination of the facts as contained in Scripture and the extra-biblical evidence in its support, have concluded that the evidence is overwhelming in the support of the Judeo-Christian Faith as being the truth. Looking at the numerous biblical and extrabiblical documents establishing the fact of the existence and resurrection of Jesus Christ do not prove He was/is the Son of God, but the evidence is so overpowering in that regard that His deity and His being the Savior of all humanity is the only rational and intelligent conclusion.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Part II: When Christians witnessed to individual communists (atheists), they often asserted that matter is everything, that we are a handful of chemicals organized in a certain fashion and that after death we will be again salt and minerals. Then it was enough to ask them, “How is it that communists in so many countries have given their lives for their ideal? Does a ‘handful of chemicals’ have ideals? Can ‘minerals’ sacrifice themselves for the good of others?” To this they have no answer.

Jesus was only a Magician: A professor of communist atheism demonstrated at a meeting that Jesus was nothing else than a magician. The professor had before him a pitcher of water. He put a powder in it and it became red. “This is the whole miracle,” he explained. “Jesus had hidden in his sleeves a powder like this, and then pretended to have changed water into wine in a wonderful manner. But I can do even more than Jesus; I can change the wine into water again.” And he put another powder in the liquid. It became white. Then another powder and it was red again.

A Christian stood up and said, “You have amazed us, comrade professor, by what you are able to do. We would ask only one thing more of you, drink a bit of your wine!” The professor said, “This I cannot do. The powder was a poison.” The Christian replied, “This is the whole difference between you and Jesus. He, with His wine, has given us joy for 2000 years, whereas you poison us with your wine.”

Man is Only Matter without a Soul:“One on occasion, a communist atheism lecturer was giving a lecture. All workers in the factory were required to attend and among these workers were many Christians. They sat quietly hearing all the arguments against God and about the stupidity of believing in Christ. The communist lecturer proceeded to prove there is no spiritual world, no God, no Christ, no hereafter. He said man is only matter with no soul. He said over and over that only matter exists.”

“A Christian stood up and asked if he could say something. Permission was given. The Christian picked up his folding chair and threw it down. He paused, looking at it. He then walked up in front of the communist and slapped the communist lecturer in the face. The communist was very angry. His face was flushed red with indignation. He shouted obscenities and called for fellow-communists to arrest the Christian. He demanded of the Christian, “How did you dare to slap me? What is the reason?”

“The Christian replied, “You have just proven yourself a liar. You said everything is matter, nothing else. I picked up the chair and threw it down. It is truly matter. The chair did not become angry. It is only matter. When I slapped you, you did not react like the chair. You reacted differently. Matter does not get mad or angry, but you did. Therefore, comrade professor, you are wrong. Man is more than matter. We are spiritual beings!”

All Life Testifies of God: “In Russia no one remembers any more the arguments for or against child or adult baptism, for or against papal infallibility. They are not pre- or postmillenialists. They cannot interpret prophecies and don’t quarrel about them, but I wondered very often, how well they could prove to atheists the existence of God.”

“Their answers to atheists are simple: “If you were invited to a feast with all kinds of good meats, would you believe that there has been nobody to cook them? But nature is a banquet prepared for us! You have tomatoes and peaches and apples and milk and honey. Who has prepared all these things for mankind? Nature is blind. If you believe in no God, how can you explain that blind nature succeeded in preparing just the things which we need in such plentitude and variety?” “They can prove that eternal life exists. I have heard one pleading with an atheist: “Suppose that we could speak with an embryo in his mother’s womb and that you would tell him that the embryonic life is only a short one after which follows a real, a long life. What would the embryo answer? He would say just what you, atheists, answer to us, when we speak to you about paradise and hell. He would say that the life in the mother’s womb is the only one and that everything else is religious foolishness. But if the embryo could think, he would say to himself, “Here arms grow on me. 1 do not need them. I cannot even stretch them. Why do they grow? Probably for a future stage of my existence, in which I will have to work with them. Legs grow, but I have to keep them bent towards my breast. Why do they grow? Probably life in a large world follows, where I will have to walk. Eyes grow, although I am surrounded by perfect darkness and don’t need them. Why do I get eyes? Probably a world with light and colors will follow.” “So, if the embryo could reflect about his own development, he would know about a life outside his mother’s womb, without having seen it. The same it is with us. As long as we are young, we have vigor, but no mind to use it aright. When, with the years, we have grown in knowledge and wisdom, the funeral wagon awaits us to take us to the grave. Why was it necessary to grow in a knowledge and wisdom, which we can no more use? Why do arms, legs and eyes grow to an embryo? It is for what follows. So it is with us here. We grow here in experience, knowledge, wisdom for what follows. We are prepared to serve on a higher level which follows death.”

Jesus Did Not Really Live: “About Jesus, the official atheist doctrine is that He never existed. “What newspaper have you in your pocket? Is it the one of today or yesterday? Let me have a look. Aha! 24th of May 1007. 2007 counted from when? From the One who did not exist or played no role? You say He never existed, but you count the years from His birth. Time existed before Him. But when He came, it seemed to mankind that everything which had been before had been vain and that the real time began only now. Your newspaper itself is proof that Jesus is not a fiction.”

None of these things in my two posts prove anything, but I would respectfully submit that a careful examination of all the biblical and estrabiblical evidence of all creation provides us with evidence so overwhelming that, we are forced to conclude that God exists and Jesus is the Lord, or we can never trust any evidence or any facts about anything else in life ever again.

It seems wise to me to examine Christianity carefully, not just in the Scriptures but in all the extrabiblical evidence as touching the Christian faith, and if you reject the existence of God and choose atheism do so based on facts and reason, not blind conjecture about things about which you are ignorant.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman:

“About Jesus, the official atheist doctrine is that He never existed.

Your post was hilarious, though I doubt you know why.

First of all, I never told anyone not to post I just hate to see an entire group of people slandered by falsehoods.  When you speak negatively about people you know nothing about, that is an injustice to the community.  You seem to think that clarity is offensive.  That is all I was attempting to do, is clarify the mistake in this post about ateists.  I would be happy to halve a disscussion on the matter, but you insist on hurling insults.  I have not contradicted myself here.  At least learn about the topic at hand berofe trying to argue the point.  It actually seems that you have no point, just insults.

Oh I forgot, falsehoods are what faith is all about.

Belief is the product of ignorance.  If I do not know something (like where the earth came from) I am not arrpgant enough to “believe” that I know, I simply say that I do not know.  To say that all atheists believe this or that is simply a lie because there is nothing that atheists as a whole believe, which is what every single person commenting here has missed.  Just do not lump us into one category.  This has been my whole point, which even Sparkie Arbuckle, who appears to be an atheist, has missed.  What is so hard to understand about that?

First of all, I never told anyone not to post I just hate to see an entire group of people slandered by falsehoods. 

You wrote Do not speak of atheists until you actually understand what you are talking about.  If that wasn’t a directive for me a non-atheist to not post anythilng about atheists, what was your intentions?

When you speak negatively about people you know nothing about, that is an injustice to the community

Please quote the line, chapter and verse where I did that.

Belief is the product of ignorance.

Wow, what an outrageous statement!!  Trust which is a word for belief is necessary for a normal lifw. e.g. when you get a haircut you have the trust (belief) that the barber will not do a ragged cut of your hair although there is no certainty that he (she) won’t.

To say that all atheists believe this or that is simply a lie because there is nothing that atheists as a whole believe

So you can speak for all athiests?  As for yourself, you already wrote that you rely on your own personal reasoning abilities.  Nothing wrong with that since most intelligent people do the same, but to imply that people that believe in a divine creator are otherwise i.e. your words: Belief is the product of ignorance shows your bias and ignorance.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

There is no god.  Get over it.

I am not trying to speak for all atheists!  Again, all I am saying is that each atheist thinks differently.  We are not united by a dogma or set way of thinking.  I have said this already.  How is that speaking for all atheists?  I cannot speak for all atheists, because they all think differently!  Do you get it this time?  This is what I was saying with my original comment, but it is like talking to a brick wall.

Bias and ignorance are not the same thing.  If you are no ignorant, then prove these outrageous claims about an invisible man who created us all.  If you have no proof, then who is the ignorant one?  I am not arrogant enough to assume that I have the answers to life’s deepest mysteries.  I will also not just take the easy way out and explain everything with supernatural forces.  Science and someone smarter than me will find these answers, not religion or magic.

Just do your research and post more informed articles.  Saying that atheism is a religion is offensive and false.

William: The United States Supreme Court said that both atheism and secular humanism are religions. Or, because the SCOTUS disagrees with you, will you speak out against them as being ignorant fools, as well as people of faith that you judge likewise beneath you in their intellect and ability to evaluate the available evidence?

By your own words, it appears that you believe your intellect is greater than that of all other human beings, especially contemptible Christians; and I assume by that you are you saying you are wiser and have a greater intellect than Einstein and a host of other reputable scientists and giants of knowledge among men throughout all recorded human history that have concluded, based on the evidence, that God does exist and that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead? The fact is these men and an incredible number of other intellgent, rational and logical people have reviewed the evidence and have reached a conclusion opposite your own and that means you could be incredibly ignorant about this matter of the existence of God.

As to atheists, we must speak in generalities, all the while knowing that atheists are not a monolithic group, because it would be too exhausting and boring to include every possible variation in beliefs among them. That is not judging them all to be exactly the same, but that they hold certain general beliefs in common which can be used to facilitate debate and rational discussion. Rob is an amazing exception to the run-of-the-mill atheist and yet, speaking to him about the difference between atheists and Christians I would generalize about atheists; and when his own beliefs differ from the general rule, he would correct me about his views. It is that simple!

So, I conclude:
1. You are completely wrong in your contention that atheism is not a religion; the SCOTUS, a much more intelligent group of people than you, have stated clearly that atheism is a religion. If you had any decency you would apologize for calling the person referring to atheism - wrong, as you are the one that erred.
2. A great many people of great stature among scientists and intellectuals throughout history disagree with you about the existence of God; and if you had any humilty at all, you would admit that perhaps they knew more than you about the subject and you would not be so adamant in saying God doesn’t exist.
3. There is nothing wrong about grouping atheists together as holding certain core beliefs in common, it does no harm to any atheist and it does facilitate intelligent discussion, wherein allowing for a host of variations in beliefs among atheists would shut down all discussion.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

William,

I’m not so sure you should be pontificating (pardon the religious reference) about logic, clarity, or whether or not to “halve” (sic) an intelligent debate.

First of all, how about putting a name on your comments.  Try addressing your remarks to the person you’re speaking to.  Its not at all arrogant, but rather an act of common courtesy (Man, there’s a misnomer… especially on the Left!)

Second, you most certainly DID tell someone to

...not speak of atheists until you actually understand what you are talking about.

If you think that remark backs up your claim to a passionate concern for freedom, and is not an implied restriction on someone else’s freedom, then you need to spend some quality time with a dictionary or thesaurus before you use words with which you have no discernible familiarity.

Which is, oddly enough, the very thing you’ve accused others of doing.  Fact is, you are, ironically, doing the very same thing in your attacks on the Christian faith, that you find so objectionable in others’ portrayal of atheism.  And that is called hypocrisy in anyone’s dictionary.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

neiman & bat one,

I concede your point about religion being a legal religion even though in practice, it is not.  I just checked in to the supreme court thing.  It offends me to my very core.  I do however apologize for my earlier comment about you having no right to post about atheists.  You are of course free to say what please about any group of people. 

The thing that really surprises me is that such sane people (I am of course only assuming here that you are sane because I do not know you) can be taken in and brainwashed by such absurdities.  The whole thing is a cult gone out of control.  I was raised as a Christian so I imagine that is how they got you, by teaching their sick dogma to you as a child.  I would like to ask you one more serious question before I move my attention to new debates. 

Why would you put yourself through all of these insane restrictions to your life?

I really am a reasonable person I just do not see what the attraction is to something so obviously false.  You really must pull the wool over your eyes to be able to keep a straight face.

Oh my goodness..  Wow after reading all of this I am totally exhausted.  Holy smokes! Again, Wow.. 

When I die? Who cares? I will be dead. Why is it always the same with you people? Why the death fetish? I have one life and I am going to enjoy it! You can set barriers for yourself and repress your natural feelings all you want, but I am free and I will not be corrupted.
William on May 24, 2007 at 08:21 am

Quote from my brother in law- Fear of death….. It’s one of the four basic instincts in all creatures,, 1. Procreation 2. Find food. 3. Find water. 4.Fear of death.
We as humans have the unfortunate ability to dwell upon any of these. That’s what this blogg is all about, for atheists and religious people alike. Admit it even those people on here who are ridiculing those of us who are questioning the afterlife are here dwelling on the afterlife (or non-afterlife) whichever you believe. I for one am not here to try to convince anybody that my belief is right, or that their belief is wrong. Also belief is not for ignorant people. Belief is a very common occurrence . When you step out onto your front porch you believe its going to support you and not collapse, you don’t know if its going to or not, but you can’t spend your entire life examining every single risk that you come across, so you go from past experiences and yes even for atheists Faith that things will turn out in an expected way.

I am so sorry for your loss.. I too am experiencing the heart wrenching emotions of grieving.  This empty feeling we are feeling will never go away..  I know my loved one is in heaven..  It is a long story, but there is no doubt in my heart, and soul that I will be with my loved one again.  My loved one was not a believer in life after death until the night of passing away. (tragic accident) Another long story..  I just wanted you to know you are not alone with your pain.  I truly feel for you… In all Sincerity, Melissa

I was raised as a Christian so I imagine that is how they got you, by teaching their sick dogma to you as a child.

William, you bitterness towards Christianity is almost a psychosis.  Does that come from being forced to attend bible school as a youth?  Your arguments seem to say that you are an atheist because you hate Christianity.  Also, you have given no logical reason that you believe there is no god except to say that todate there is no acientific proof. You also wrote that you (we) don’t know everything but eventually we will.  Why does scientific discovery not include solid proof that a god exists?  Even today one can use logic to assert that a divine creator exists since no one can explain at either the micro levels or macro levels how everything came to be.

The greatest thinkers in the world today have determined using logic and deductive reasoning that the universe and all things in it were the product of a divine creator.  To deny this puts you with a small very narrow-minded group.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Even today one can use logic to assert that a divine creator exists since no one can explain at either the micro levels or macro levels how everything came to be.

The logical conclusion that we cannot explain how everything came to be is not that God exists.  It is that we have not figured it out, yet.

Even today one can use logic to assert that a divine creator exists since no one can explain at either the micro levels or macro levels how everything came to be.

Trolls. It’s what’s for breakfast!
And then I eat their lunch.

docdav,

When there is proof, I will believe.  You are forgetting all of the restrictions and fear and guilt one must be subjected to to be a good Christian.  I will not subject myself to these on the off chance that there is a god.  I think that if such an entity existed, it would be painfully obvious.  Faith would not be required.  Even if he/she/it does exist, what has been done to earn my groveling?

Christianity has caused more fear, guilt and shame than any thing else ever.  I could not live with myself if I did anything but fight it.  It is not good, right, moral or helpful to society.  I have converted 2 people I know to the side of reason, and I will continue the good fight.

Premarital sex is not wrong.  Abortion is not wrong.  Homosexuality is not wrong.  Being different is not wrong.  What is wrong is murdering abortion doctors or making people feel guilty for who they are. 

Belief is not a choice.  I did not choose to disbelieve.  It would be wrong for me to pretend that I buy this nonsense. 

I am not the one who’s burden it is to supply proof because I am not making these outrageous claims.  This whole concept is absurd.

Just testing my new sig and avatar

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

-Benjamin Franklin

If you presuppose a divine Creator, what follows from that is eminently logical

proof, while your statement is true, you don’t have to follow that line of reasoning to come to the conclusion that the universe and everything in it is not some kind of random natural occuring phenomena.  Even the simplest constructs are beyond our capacity to create (some can be dupicated once we understand the already existing blue-print) so it’s logical to assume that something a whole lot smarter than us was the original creator.  It you are not happy with the term god, call it something else but the entity that created all has a very strong probability of existing.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

you don’t have to follow that line of reasoning to come to the conclusion that the universe and everything in it is not some kind of random natural occuring phenomena.

Trolls. It’s what’s for breakfast!
And then I eat their lunch.

William said: ”Why would you put yourself through all of these insane restrictions to your life?” Why would you, being free from all concern about eternity, voluntarily restrict yourself from; let’s say, raping a good looking young woman, because she rejected your sexual advances? I will guess that it is because you would choose not to harm that woman emotionally or physically, feeling it would be an abnormal, hurtful social interaction? You therefore voluntarily put a restriction on your life not to rape women, along with many other similar and dissimilar restrictions. You did it for some non-material sense of decency, knowing an absolute standard of right and wrong exists with consequences for failure to maintain those standards. Why? There is according to your earlier statements really no such thing as right or wrong, so maybe part of your reluctance to rape is simply the legal consequences, not any real concern for the woman? Or, perhaps more likely it is something intangible, non-physical within you declaring rape to be morally wrong. Perhaps, it is an inner sense that sin does exist and there are consequences when we commit sin.

If, for whatever reason I come to a place wherein I sincerely believe something is harmful to my life and those around me, and I no longer have any desire to engage in this or that activity or behavior, where is the burden upon me in my refraining? How am I in any sense of bondage or operating out of fear by refraining? I hate beans, I don’t eat beans, no problem! I have no desire for the beans and I am sacrificing nothing by not eating beans. While the foregoing has been very basic, the same rule applies to behavior or desires that are contrary to God’s word. If I agree in my inner man that certain thoughts or behaviors are wrong and I simply no longer desire to do those things, where is the bondage, where is the fear? In God’s Perfect Love there is no fear of punishment and no bondage to a list of do’s and do nots. I find with time in relationship to Christ, I simply stop desiring things that are against God’s Will and I increasingly desire to do those things that are in harmony with His Will. I lose nothing, give up nothing, I gain everything.

The fool has said in his heart there is no God! I could provide a long list of very intelligent people, giants among men and women that have carefully studied God’s Word and extra-biblical documents and became convinced by their own investigation that God indeed does exist and that Christ is His Son and the Savior of the world. C. S. Lewis was a great intellectual and academic, a dedicated atheist and adherent to science as being the only truth. In his book “Mere Christianity,” Lewis details how he was forced by the evidence to accept God’s existence and Jesus as his Savior. Many other atheists, great scientists, men of superior legal minds and many others have, independently of any religion, searched the evidence and concluded that God does exist.

“Astronomers are curiously upset by . . . proof that the universe had a beginning. Their reactions provide an interesting demonstration of the response of the scientific mind - supposedly a very objective mind - when evidence uncovered by science itself leads to a conflict with the articles of faith in their profession.” Robert Jastrow, past Director of the Goddard Space Institute.

Unfortunately, you and many others were exposed to ministers of the Gospel, most very sincere, that in ignorance promoted fear of punishment rather than the Love of God that delivers from all fear, through His Salvation. Make no mistake, God sent His Son to offer every human being a Divine Pardon from all their sins - that is absolute, unconditional forgiveness; that they might all live eternally with Him; but, a pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted, and if His Pardon is rejected those people doing so will suffer the eternal consequences by their own choice, not because God is angry at them or desires their punishment; quite the contrary, He gave His own Son because of His Love for every human being, so naturally treading upon His Son by rejecting Him will bring unnecessary punishing by the choice of those rejecting Christ, not because God enjoys or desires that anyone be thus punished.

One last note: Anyone murdering an abortionist, a licensed, legal murderer of innocent children is not a Christian and is not walking in the Will of God; and they will find out their terrible mistake when they enter eternity. God absolutely hates what that abortionist is doing, while He absolutely loves the person and desires their repentance and turning to Him for His Salvation.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Melissa: I believe in death bed confessions of Christ and that no matter what these people did in life, they are completely, unconditionally in Heaven at the point of death. However, outside of faith in Christ there is no hope of eternal life. On that simple truth I have placed my future and that of my loved ones.

My son knew Christ, though he was a terrible sinner most of his life, and within about six months prior to his giving his life, he was striving to walk with the Lord. Yet, what if he believed in Christ sincerely and accepted Jesus as his Savior, but had not been especially dedicated for any amount of time prior to his death? I believe that once in Christ, no matter how we struggle in this life and fail as we all do, we are as secure as Christ Himself is secure, for all true believers are in Him now and for all eternity.

Tomorrow, I will pick up and spend time with the daughter he never met, she being born almost seven months after my son’s death.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I simply stop desiring things that are against God’s Will and I increasingly desire to do those things that are in harmony with His Will.

Dave: No, what you said was sick!

God is Love and God’s Love does no harm to other human beings, those who walk in His Love don’t harm other human beings. You took an example I used to make a point and turned it into a sick fantasy of your own.

You need professional help, anyone wjho would make the vile suggestion you made has a severe mental illness!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

So if God willed you to rape a “good looking young woman because she rejected your sexual advances,” you would rape her?
dave on May 26, 2007 at 08:24 pm

You’re a stupid, immature little f u c k Dave! When are you going to grow up?

Neiman: God has told His followers to do much, much worse than just rape.

also,

God is Love and God’s Love does no harm to other human beings, those who walk in His Love don’t harm other human beings.

Dave: See the Ten Commandments.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman: In the past God has told his followers to commit murder. If He told you to commit rape, would you do it?

Dave: Murder is to take an innocent life without reason. The Commandment Thou Shalt not kill, literally means you shall not commit murder. In that context, God never told anyone to commit murder. It is as I have proposed on many occasions about someone breaking into my home and attempting to kill my loved ones, it is not murder to take his life, it is an act of defending and saving innocent lives by taking the life of the murderer. When someone comes into my national home to kill or cause serious harm to my national family, if necessary, I am justified in taking his life and it is not murder.

God had created a perfect world for His human creation and they became corrupt through disobedience, so much so that at the time of Noah, to protect the lives of those few people still obeying His Word, the Lord flooded the earth and killed them all. As the Jews were brought into the Promised Land, the people already living there were altogether corrupt and evil in all their ways - including child sacrifices, and as God gave these areas in what is now called Israel to His Chosen people, to protect them, He ordered all the wicked inhabitants be killed, all of them, women and children.

“People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors. They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their own lives in suicide bombings as children. Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.”

“The commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is really not as general as the King James version would indicate. The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder. Although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice.” Despite all this death ordered by God, on many occasions, in order to save the righteous and to give opportunity for sinners to repent and live, God sent His angels or other servants to warn them of coming Judgment, but mostly they refused His Lovingkindness. He has warned this generation to flee from the Divine Wrath that will surely come upon all flesh, but only a tiny minority will accept His rescue, many will, because they are a wisdom unto themselves, still reject God’s Salvation.

You are wrong because you are grossly ignorant of Scripture, that is not a put down, it is just a recognition that you lack sufficient knowledge about God or the Holy Scriiptures to make an intelligent, informed analysis.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Dave II: There is an old question, if God is all powerful and all-knowing, can He make a rock He could not lift? The answer is akin to, do you still beat your wife!

God would never ask me to rape anyone, so of course the question of whether I would do it or not will never arise.

So, both your accusation and question in your last post are both based on your ignorance.

Sometimes Dave it is better for you to be silent and let other people think you are a fool, than to follow your example and write what is on your mind and thereby remove all doubt.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Dave: You have absolutely no idea what God has told anyone, or even if that ever took place.  All you have is the claim of flawed human beings.  You are wrong, once again.

Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

In that context, God never told anyone to commit murder.

God would never ask me to rape anyone, so of course the question of whether I would do it or not will never arise.

Also, I’m unclear as to why God would never ask His followers to do such a thing. God has the final say in determining whether an action is moral or immoral; maybe He created a world where rape was moral. How do you know that to be false?

maybe He created a world where rape was moral. How do you know that to be false?

Trolls. It’s what’s for breakfast!
And then I eat their lunch.

Dave: Abraham desired earnestly to be let in on the mystery of redemption; and God, solely to instruct him in the infinite extent of Divine goodness to mankind, He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, let Abraham feel by this experience what it was to lose a beloved son, the son born miraculously when Sarah was past child-bearing, as Jesus was miraculously born of a virgin.

God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, rather just before he bound his son, God promised that He would provide Himself (His Son) as the Lamb to be slain for the world. Then God prevented Abraham from carrying out the deed, as He never intended that Issac should die or that Abraham would sin in killing his own son. This was not an order for Abraham to slay His son, but that God could both test Abraham’s faith and teach him about what God would do to save the world. An order to kill without the intent the killing would be carried out and with the power to prevent it, it was not an comand to do murder.

God is not capable of doing evil, He will not instruct anyone else to do evil; whether that is on earth or anywhere else. Since God has not told us that he has created intelligent life anywhere else in all creation, it is ridiculous in the extreme to imagine He has or that He would create one Divine order here and another elsewhere. Whatever God creates is perfect and He would never create anything less than perfect, He does not experiment, He knows all things perfectly and is incapable of doing anything that is not perfect.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.