Say Anything Blog

At best, this guy is a RINO.  He is certainly no conservative.  You submitted this to make your usual agenda that the label a person assigns to themself is meaningful.  The reality is, for us non-partisan thinkers, that the quality of the ideas is what makes a person, not the label.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

“To announce there must be no criticism of the President, and to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, it is morally treasonous to the American public.”

– President Theodore Roosevelt

Check the leftie hate sites; they are full of death threats against the President and this country on a daily basis; no one has been silenced here, at least not in this administration.  You make a typical straw man argument.  The MSM outlets spew their lies and terrorist propaganda 24/7, there is a movie made about the assassination of President Bush, and no one has been arrested.  You lefties can’t seem to stop lying.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

You claim that it’s “the lefties” who want to turn this country into a soviet-style dictatorship, but you want to arrest people for making movies?

I like John, but he’s no conservative.  I read him to get middle/left-centered commentary.  I’d guess that to Mike, he appears strongly to the right.

You claim that it’s “the lefties” who want to turn this country into a soviet-style dictatorship, but you want to arrest people for making movies?

Chad: I know you have trouble “thinking”, but I said exactly the opposite.  I specifically pointed out that this administration has been extremely tolerant with the murderous haters.  It is the left who want to silence those who don’t adhere to their ideological line, like Joe Lieberman, for instance.  They tried to do a Stalinist purge on him for disagreeing with them on one issue.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

...there is a movie made about the assassination of President Bush, and no one has been arrested.

As many complaints as I have with the Republican party, turning to the Democrats would be worse.  The only advantage they have is that they’re not beholden to a religous wing, but that’s about the only thing.

The only advantage they have is that they’re not beholden to a religious wing, but that’s about the only thing.

gregdn,

Perhaps… unless you regard the secular progressive ideology as a form of, or substitute for, religion.

coincidence?

p.s. I think the RINO Caucus is probably the biggest one within the Republican party. ..they currently are the Republican party, lol.

Bat:
“secular progressive”

Someone’s read O’Reilly’s book!

You don’t have to read his book for that; you just have to watch his show, ‘cuz the guy is a marketing guru!

gregdn,

Hardly!  I was using the phrase long before O’Reilly was (publicly), and though I admit to watching his show on rare occasions, I have read none of his writing… including his website.

Bat:
Oh.  I thought he made it up.

r108 said

You submitted this to make your usual agenda that the label a person assigns to themself is meaningful.

I wasn’t aware that I pushed that agenda and I certainly don’t subscribe to it at any rate. I’ve usually found labels that are commonly shared and widely held to be most accurate. That is why your depiction of yourself as occupying the American centre never fails to amuse me.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

MikeA: You generally give undue significance to someone’s political label over their actual ideas; thought I was clear on that. 
What is your label for someone who subscribes to the founding principles of the United States, then?
A “right-wing extremist”?

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

...there is a movie made about the assassination of President Bush, and no one has been arrested.

What part of “no one” don’t you understand?  I was stating a fact that reports the tolerance of this administration toward the murderous extreme left.  You really can’t understand that?

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Chad: Since you obviously don’t understand simple written English: stating a truth doesn’t mean you advocate something else. Duh.
If you made a movie about the assassination of Mahmoud or Hugo, and showed in their home country, what do you think would happen to you?  If you can give a straight answer to that question, there may be some hope for you as a rational being.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

When I stated that no one had been arrested, I was also including the MSM spewing its hate and lies about the President and our country 24/7.  Try that in any socialist dictatorship and see how long you last.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

r108

You generally give undue significance to someone’s political label over their actual ideas

Well that doesn’t make sense...the label flows from the ideas and not vice versa. I think your confusion may lie with the fact that you tend to assign the “liberal” of “lefty” label to anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

r108

What is your label for someone who subscribes to the founding principles of the United States, then?

Very conservative.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

MikeA:

Well that doesn’t make sense...the label flows from the ideas and not vice versa. I think your confusion may lie with the fact that you tend to assign the “liberal” of “lefty” label to anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

You give yet another example of trying to win an argument by stereotyping your opponent.  You make my point with this response.  If you evaluate someone by their ideas, why the need for a “label”?  Labeling is a substitute for making an evaluation; it is a form of bigotry.

What is your label for someone who subscribes to the founding principles of the United States, then?

Very conservative.

So, the US is a royalist country?  Very funny.  Historically, of course, the US is a bit left of center, tending towards anarchy, because of our individual independence, not only of the country in general, but of our citizens.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

I like John, but he’s no conservative.

I liked John, but he’s just too reactionary to me.  A while back someone asked the President about what he thought of teaching evolution in schools.  The President tossed off some nothing answer about how we should all have open minds and try to work together to make school curriculum as inclusive as possible...and Cole went absolutely ape shit about it.  Went on and on about it for days.

The President didn’t say a thing about not teaching evolution or teaching intelligent design or anything like that, but it sent Cole off the ledge.  He was going on and on about theocracies and never voting for Bush again...so I just changed the channel on him.  Never been back.

I don’t consider him worth my time.  But I do love how lefties hold him up as a “true” conservative whenever one of his rants happen to line up with their political ends.  He’s middle of the road, but he’s the worst kind of middle-of-the-roader.  The kind that is endlessly playing “devils advocate” or trying to posture themselves as political mavericks.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I think your confusion may lie with the fact that you tend to assign the “liberal” of “lefty” label to anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

Isn’t that how it works? That’s how I see the world.  Everyone who agrees with me is a smart, attractive, scholarly conservative.  Everybody who doesn’t is a dirty commie.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

r108

Labeling is a substitute for making an evaluation; it is a form of bigotry.

I agree it can be misused that way but it is very human to try to categorise things. As for my stereotyping you...either you didn’t read what I said or you don’t understand what “stereotyping” means.

r108 said

So, the US is a royalist country?  Very funny.  Historically, of course, the US is a bit left of center, tending towards anarchy, because of our individual independence, not only of the country in general, but of our citizens.

I gave up trying to understand your notion of the political spectrum long ago. This doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy our exchanges but we’ll never agree on the terminology to seriously discuss such matters.

Rob...that’s not quite how I learned it.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

Rob...that’s not quite how I learned it.

Well of course that’s not how dirty commies like you learned it…

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Isn’t that how it works? That’s how I see the world.  Everyone who agrees with me is a smart, attractive, scholarly conservative.  Everybody who doesn’t is a dirty commie.

Ha! Well said!

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I gave up trying to understand your notion of the political spectrum long ago.

Of course, since my actual ideas don’t agree with what your stereotype thinks they should be.  You use stereotyping(labeling) as a substitute for original thinking.  You have a stereotype for conservatives and a stereotype for Republicans, and get confused when one of us doesn’t line up with your predetermined idea of what we should say.  In your book, Republicans are heavily influenced fundamentalist Christianity, when the truth is that Christian fundamentalists are a small extremist groups.  I don’t demonize them, because we have religious freedom in this country, but I don’t believe as they do, either.  If you could give up your need to label, you might start thinking again and paying attention to what people actually believe, instead of what your labels tell you they believe.  A good case in point is the guy you label as a “conservative” in this post, who is obviously not a conservative.  You probably also think Pat Buchanan is a conservative.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

You use stereotyping(labeling) as a substitute for original thinking.  You have a stereotype for conservatives and a stereotype for Republicans, and get confused when one of us doesn’t line up with your predetermined idea of what we should say.

You’re projecting which is also an all too human trait. Most political observers recognise the key role that Fundamentalist Christians have played in Republican electoral successes since Reagan although I wouldn’t say that they’ve heavily influenced Republican policy and certainly not to the degree that their numbers might warrant. As for Cole...I think his views are generally conservative but that is open to anyone’s interpretation.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

You’re projecting which is also an all too human trait.

It is you who are projecting your stereotypes on conservatives and Republicans.  I have noticed over the months in reading your comments, that you give weight to a person’s political label, as if it has great significance.  This guy has a right to his own opinions, which are not generally shared by conservatives, and yet you label him “conservative”, as if that gives some extra meaning to his personal opinions.  That is the labeling to which I refer.  This is something I notice quite a lot from your side of the political spectrum; you seem to take some special joy in reporting the words of some “conservative” if he or she berates the President or are efforts in Iraq, as if that is some sort of convincing argument.  For you, it is convincing because it is expressed by someone you label as a “conservative” because it doesn’t fit into your stereotype of what a conservative is, so it must be true.  The content of those views isn’t the focus, only the party affiliation of who says it.
That is why I have called you a “partisan thinker” from time to time.  It seems to describe what you do.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

r108...interesting comments. I consider John Cole conservative specifically because of the content of his views. Most of us have positions which could be described as “conservative” or “liberal” but again most of us find that our broad set of views slots better in one camp or another. I consider John Cole conservative because most of his positions accord with what is generally considered a conservative point of view.

There are many ways one can differentiate between “liberal” and “conservative” views...I think in terms of politics that the dividing line is each side’s view of the role of the government...conservatives preferring less government and liberals preferring more. I’m interested in knowing whether this makes sense to you.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

It is you who are projecting your stereotypes

I find this interesting becuase it seems to me as soon as some varies a tad with your world view they are a Marxist.

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.”
- John Adams

I’m interested in knowing whether this makes sense to you.

I would need a lot more information than that; it could just as easily describe an anarchist.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

TP: Wrong again.  As soon as someone starts spouting Marxist views, I describe them as a Marxist.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.

Rob, great comment.  You’re described what bothers me about John to the last T.

MikeAdamson:

Most political observers recognise the key role that Fundamentalist Christians have played in Republican electoral successes since Reagan although I wouldn’t say that they’ve heavily influenced Republican policy and certainly not to the degree that their numbers might warrant

And actually, they weren’t ultimately responsible for Bush’s success in the 2004 election.  Percentage-wise they held their own (that is no change in percentile from the 2000 election).  One of the biggest demographics shifts was due to a sharp increase in the number of agnostics and atheists voting for Bush.  In turn, this was likely more due to national security and the Iraq war in particular than any profound shift within these groups on social or fiscal issues.

I think in terms of politics that the dividing line is each side’s view of the role of the government...conservatives preferring less government and liberals preferring more.

Well, it’s certainly what divides republicans (small r) from democrats (small d)!  A true democracy has a centralized government selected purely on the basis of plurality of vote. The American republic recognizes state and local government as having an equal position of power with the other branches of government, thereby reducing the power of the central government, and also weights the individual voters based on their region.

These are really very different things to me than “conservative/liberal”.  We can, for example, talk about social conservatives/liberals.  In this sense, a conservative would certainly be somebody who favors the existing social constructs, such as marriage being between a man and a woman, the sanctity of life including fetuses, etc., whereas a liberal would be more likely to experiment with these original social constructs to allow gay marriage and limited abortions.

As this is election is demonstrating, you can be socially conservative and still be elected to the Democratic side of the aisle.  If there is a change in power, it will be because of social conservatives, and a shift to the right of the Democratic Party, rather than a shift towards liberalism by the American populace.

Then there is fiscally conservative/liberal.  In this respect, a conservative might be a person who trusts an individual (or local or state government) to make the best choice on how to spend their resources, whereas a liberal would champion for more centralized control of fiscal policies.

Having said all of that, I think it would be too simplistic to describe the American republic system as a response to conservative ideals.  Rather it was the result of many years of debate and fine tuning that balanced the needs of the central government against the rights of individual colonies that were forming to establish an new national government.

Ultimately this is what is wrong with using simple labels like “conservative” versus ‘liberal” to describe people.  John Cole ultimately has more in common with liberal ideas than with conservative ones, especially on social issues.  In the US, when we use the word “conservative” we normally apply it to social issues rather than fiscal ones, so in this respect John is certainly a liberal, and based upon that limited criterion, so am I.

Very nice post Carrick...very thoughtful and well put. I agree with you that the two terms have different meanings depending upon what sphere you are examining and I also agree that one can be socially conservative, fiscally liberal and politically whatever so it is important to clearly identify what one is talking about when one is bandying around the terms. I have to confess that I was digging for some common ground on which r108 and I could discuss anything...it isn’t necessary for people to agree but if there’s no common language then it’s difficult to even converse. Thank you for your comments.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

Not particularly on topic but there’s an article in the Globe and Mail this morning which suggests that one’s political outlook may be determined genetically...I’m a little dubious but it’s food for thought.

"The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced if the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Cicero, 55 BC

Carrick: One question: How does the “fiscal conservative” countenance the excessive and wasteful spending of the “social liberal”.  Sounds a bit schizophrenic to me.

Leftie political philosophy, from a DU commenter:

It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. RUMOR IS TRUTH. The modern laws of media hype and political warfare have a useful tenet: Repeat ANYTHING or raise false concern over ANYTHING and it is likely to be planted in the conscious/subconscious of many voters.