So you used the present tense. Are you saying that morality itself has changed? Because God, ‘author of morality’, commanded these acts to happen, they were therefore correct and moral. Now you would agree that they are not?
h3lix - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
If you will read a little more carefully, I said that religion was the sole determinant of morality, and that no religion considers infanticide to be moral. Did you just not read what I wrote, or did you react so intensely that you lost the ability to follow my reasoning? Your cherry picked quotes don’t even support your own position, since you give no quotes that either place your quotes in context, nor do you quote anything that disagrees with your quotes, implying that none exist. I doubt that is true. In any case, the Hebrew God(the God of the Old Testament) does not speak for all religions, not even modern Protestant Christianity. The Hebrew God certainly doesn’t speak for Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians or Islamists, either, so my statement still stands as written.
robert108 - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
My quotes were just to establish the Hebrew God’s morality in the case of infantocide. The quotes were not to represent my position, they were to represent the OT God’s position.
You said that no religion considers infantocide to be moral. I pointed out that Christianity at least did at one time.
I don’t think I was implying that no counterexamples exist. But the 6th commandment “thou shalt not kill” is a good counter-example. Although God himself breaks this one.
the Hebrew God(the God of the Old Testament) does not speak for all religions, not even modern Protestant Christianity.
You mean protestant Christians worship a different God than the one in the OT?
h3lix - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
When I said that religion was the sole determinant of morality, that was according to the definition of “morality”. Your attempt to make this about something that was written thousands of years ago(and then only a few cherry picked examples with no context) does not refute my statement about religion being the sole determinant of morality. It is also a matter of record that no religion today(except for the religion of liberalism) considers infanticide to be moral. You have given no examples to the contrary. Since liberals won’t ‘fess up to being a religion, that makes my statement true as written. What are you really trying to do here?
robert108 - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
Christianity, by definition, dates from the ministry of Christ. Your cherry picked passages predate that. The only contemporary religion that still is based solely on the Hebrew God is Judaism, it doesn’t consider infanticide moral.
You mean protestant Christians worship a different God than the one in the OT?
Yes.
Although God himself breaks this one.
Wrong again. “Thou” refers to humans, not God. Otherwise it would be “I shall not kill.”
Can we be done with the nit picking now? You don’t think infanticide is moral, so why are you really arguing?
robert108 - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj’ən)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
a. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
The only definition of the word religion that applies to liberals would be the 4th one, but the same could be said about conservatism or a football fan club. You’ve been reading too much Ann Coulter.
I wasn’t refuting your statement that religion is the sole source of morality, although I disagree with this opinion.
I was refuting your statement that no religions today say infantocide is moral. I was pointing out the history of one religion where a God says that it is.
Your attempt to make this about something that was written thousands of years ago(and then only a few cherry picked examples with no context) does not refute my statement about religion being the sole determinant of morality.
The entire religion was founded on this book.
h3lix - 05:10pm on 10/01/2006
Christina writes:
When they abort are they not ending the life of another human being? Yes.
You say this as though it’s a bad thing.
Dave - 06:10pm on 10/01/2006
I came to that conclusion more than twenty years ago; I just didn’t write a book about it. Actually, liberalism qualifies under all four headings, but this is such a sidetrack, I don’t want to spell it out for you right now.
I was pointing out the history of one religion where a God says that it is.
What modern-day religion is that?
The entire religion was founded on this book.
The only religion that was “founded on this book” is Judaism, and I challenge you to point out any Judaic law that says infanticide is moral.
Morality is defined as a religious code, but not any particular one. In Islamic morality, for example, it is moral to stone a woman to death for exposing her hair or for flirting with a man not her husband. That is an example of morality as defined by a religion. Get it now?
robert108 - 06:10pm on 10/01/2006
You mean protestant Christians worship a different God than the one in the OT?
Yes.
Most Christians (at least all the ones I know) would disagree.
I have to nipick back a little here:
Wrong again. “Thou” refers to humans, not God. Otherwise it would be “I shall not kill.”
God is then doing the opposite of what he orders.
h3lix - 06:10pm on 10/01/2006
God is then doing the opposite of what he orders.
God is not human. Duh.
God also said: “Vengeance is Mine.”
Sorry, had to revise the last paragraph:
So you used the present tense. Are you saying that morality itself has changed? Because God, ‘author of morality’, commanded these acts to happen, they were therefore correct and moral. Now you would agree that they are not?
If you will read a little more carefully, I said that religion was the sole determinant of morality, and that no religion considers infanticide to be moral. Did you just not read what I wrote, or did you react so intensely that you lost the ability to follow my reasoning? Your cherry picked quotes don’t even support your own position, since you give no quotes that either place your quotes in context, nor do you quote anything that disagrees with your quotes, implying that none exist. I doubt that is true. In any case, the Hebrew God(the God of the Old Testament) does not speak for all religions, not even modern Protestant Christianity. The Hebrew God certainly doesn’t speak for Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians or Islamists, either, so my statement still stands as written.
My quotes were just to establish the Hebrew God’s morality in the case of infantocide. The quotes were not to represent my position, they were to represent the OT God’s position.
You said that no religion considers infantocide to be moral. I pointed out that Christianity at least did at one time.
I don’t think I was implying that no counterexamples exist. But the 6th commandment “thou shalt not kill” is a good counter-example. Although God himself breaks this one.
You mean protestant Christians worship a different God than the one in the OT?
When I said that religion was the sole determinant of morality, that was according to the definition of “morality”. Your attempt to make this about something that was written thousands of years ago(and then only a few cherry picked examples with no context) does not refute my statement about religion being the sole determinant of morality. It is also a matter of record that no religion today(except for the religion of liberalism) considers infanticide to be moral. You have given no examples to the contrary. Since liberals won’t ‘fess up to being a religion, that makes my statement true as written. What are you really trying to do here?
Christianity, by definition, dates from the ministry of Christ. Your cherry picked passages predate that. The only contemporary religion that still is based solely on the Hebrew God is Judaism, it doesn’t consider infanticide moral.
Yes.
Wrong again. “Thou” refers to humans, not God. Otherwise it would be “I shall not kill.”
Can we be done with the nit picking now? You don’t think infanticide is moral, so why are you really arguing?
re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj’ən)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
a. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
The only definition of the word religion that applies to liberals would be the 4th one, but the same could be said about conservatism or a football fan club. You’ve been reading too much Ann Coulter.
I wasn’t refuting your statement that religion is the sole source of morality, although I disagree with this opinion.
I was refuting your statement that no religions today say infantocide is moral. I was pointing out the history of one religion where a God says that it is.
The entire religion was founded on this book.
Christina writes:
You say this as though it’s a bad thing.I came to that conclusion more than twenty years ago; I just didn’t write a book about it. Actually, liberalism qualifies under all four headings, but this is such a sidetrack, I don’t want to spell it out for you right now.
What modern-day religion is that?
The only religion that was “founded on this book” is Judaism, and I challenge you to point out any Judaic law that says infanticide is moral.
Morality is defined as a religious code, but not any particular one. In Islamic morality, for example, it is moral to stone a woman to death for exposing her hair or for flirting with a man not her husband. That is an example of morality as defined by a religion. Get it now?
Most Christians (at least all the ones I know) would disagree.
I have to nipick back a little here:
God is then doing the opposite of what he orders.
God is not human. Duh.
God also said: “Vengeance is Mine.”
Are you accusing God of hypocrisy? That’s funny!