Just ask Canada. I have been posting at my site about a buddy from Toronto that injured an ACL snowboarding. He is way down the priority list for Canada’s healthcare system.
So it is not just regulating what you can eat, but making value judgements on the priority you receive for care. Liver failure from drinking… have a nice death. Lung Cancer from Smoking, no treatment for you. HIV from going to bathhouses? Not gonna get treatment for that.
The fact that government runs things allows this. We have laws that limit what private companies can do, but in a rationed system like Canada, there are no private companies. As is the problem with the environment, when private companies destroy the environment, they get sued. When the government does it by spilling toxic waste at military bases and detonating Nukes, etc, well, hey, they are the government. A neighbor kicks down the door to your house and kills your kids because he got the wrong number, he goes to jail, the police do it, they walk.
The same Democratic know it alls that hate Bush’s wiretapping, were solidly behind Janet Reno at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. They claim to want something done about big brother, yet advocate for bigger government programs. If the government runs healthcare, they won’t have to call Verizon or ATT or Bell to get my health records. If you like wiretapping, imagine snoops being able to find out that you take Lithium for Bipolar disorder and have a bad case of herpes.
Justin B - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
I talked with three Canadians about this. The idea may be noble, but in practise, it does not work. It trades time for money. The government had, in effect, made the moral choice that a person’s time is less important than earned credits (money). The Canadian Government has changed, however, and it remains to be seen how much longer this experiment will remain.
Chief RZ - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
What is interesting about your comments about the NSA, Justin, is that the same people who oppose the NSA having a database of phone calls are largely the same people who support allowing the government to be in charge of our medical care, including our complete medical history.
Crazy how their minds work.
Rob - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
My grandmother has been in and out of the hospital for cancer treatment for the last few years. She recently got diagnosed with a tumor in her brain. She has got excellent treament in Winnipeg. No long waiting, adequate access to specialists. She has had a new laser surgery and as of now, she probably has to go in to have the surgery again. She has only had to pay for the drugs, none of the chemo or surgeries. Without Canada’s healthcare system, I have no clue how they would pay for all that, even with insurance.
Although I have never lived up there for an extended period of time, i am a Candian citizen and half of my family lives there. Canadians are extremely proud of their healthcare system. While it is not perfect, they wouldn’t trade it with ours in a million years.
graeme - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
Says this blog’s resident socialist.
Yet, reality tells us that Canadians wait weeks and months for procedures Americans get immediately. And taxes are lower in America to boot, mostly because we don’t have to support a bulky medical system.
Of course, America’s system isn’t perfect either. We need to move away from this defacto subsidization of health care - where employers are forced to pay for the health care of their employees - and move to a system that makes citizens directly responsible for paying for their own health care.
Rob - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
Speaking of healthcare, I was reading an article in the new TIME (yeah I know it’s a shitty magazine and usually if I want to read a liberal mag I pick up the New Yorker because atleast their writers are talented, but TIME was the only thing worth reading in the doctor’s office) about Americans flying to India, Malaysia and some other Asian countries to recieve healthcare. Apparently many of the hospitals are gorgeous with a ritzy hotel atmosphere and state-of-the-art medical technology. Plus many of the operations are 25% the cost they are in the US. Apparently, some US businesses are actually encouraging their employees to seek healthcare for major operations in these countries by giving the employees cash incentives, because even with the incentives and travel expenses, its still drastically cheaper.
Andrew - 09:05am on 05/25/2006
I’m trying to remember the last time I went up to Canada for a cutting edge medical procedure.
Or more likely when my daughter was in an accident we had an emergency CAT scan done at 8 pm. We didn’t have to do this but under the circustances I was happy that we got the negative (no problem) report.
Would that be done in Canadia?
The Whistler - 10:05am on 05/25/2006
Graeme,
Glad to hear your Grandmother had a good experience with socialized medicine. BUT..
I am sure there are are lot of people with anecdotal information about how good that system has treated them. There are also accounts of it’s failing.
“I have no clue how they would pay for all that, even with insurance.”
That statement reveals to me that many people have no clue about downside of socialized medicine.
If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free.
It is failing in England and other European countries and is only in the initial throes of failing in Canada. Good luck to your family and friends.
Eneils Bailey - 10:05am on 05/25/2006
It seems obvious to everyone with a brain that when the cost of something is free you’re going to have to ration it somehow else.
I don’t quite get it why Libs don’t realize this.
The Whistler - 10:05am on 05/25/2006
We need to move away from this defacto subsidization of health care - where employers are forced to pay for the health care of their employees - and move to a system that makes citizens directly responsible for paying for their own health care.
Partially disagree. First off, companies are rarely forced to pay for it. Exceptions are Union jobs, and the new state laws mandating it in some areas. Matter of fact is that most companies choose to offer health benefits for obvious reasons--key employees would be off sick or with family illness if the company did not offer benefits. Plus it allows them to attract better workers. But the point has to be made that the health benefits at a company come at the same cost as a government program--namely either lower wages (private company plan) or higher taxes (government).
I agree that no company should be mandated to provide health benefits, but the flip side of that is that if we did not have a system of Medicaid and Medicare picking up the tab for people’s healthcare, the government would have no reason to force Walmart to pay for benefits. The point is that the government needs to completely stay out out of it.
Reality is that insurers exist to provide healthcare insurance options to companies and individuals, but by insuring companies or large groups, insurance companies are able to spread the risks and therefore lower premiums. It is the subsidization of medical care by medicare and medicaid that creates increased demand that allows the higher prices. Plus the AMA and other organizations ensure a reduced supply of doctors by only allowing so many to enter medical school.
The entire problem is that so many forces are conspiring to keep the market out of healthcare. I have less problems with insurance companies than with the AMA (The UNION FOR DOCTORS) and the government interference.
Just ask Canada. I have been posting at my site about a buddy from Toronto that injured an ACL snowboarding. He is way down the priority list for Canada’s healthcare system.
So it is not just regulating what you can eat, but making value judgements on the priority you receive for care. Liver failure from drinking… have a nice death. Lung Cancer from Smoking, no treatment for you. HIV from going to bathhouses? Not gonna get treatment for that.
The fact that government runs things allows this. We have laws that limit what private companies can do, but in a rationed system like Canada, there are no private companies. As is the problem with the environment, when private companies destroy the environment, they get sued. When the government does it by spilling toxic waste at military bases and detonating Nukes, etc, well, hey, they are the government. A neighbor kicks down the door to your house and kills your kids because he got the wrong number, he goes to jail, the police do it, they walk.
The same Democratic know it alls that hate Bush’s wiretapping, were solidly behind Janet Reno at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. They claim to want something done about big brother, yet advocate for bigger government programs. If the government runs healthcare, they won’t have to call Verizon or ATT or Bell to get my health records. If you like wiretapping, imagine snoops being able to find out that you take Lithium for Bipolar disorder and have a bad case of herpes.
I talked with three Canadians about this. The idea may be noble, but in practise, it does not work. It trades time for money. The government had, in effect, made the moral choice that a person’s time is less important than earned credits (money). The Canadian Government has changed, however, and it remains to be seen how much longer this experiment will remain.
What is interesting about your comments about the NSA, Justin, is that the same people who oppose the NSA having a database of phone calls are largely the same people who support allowing the government to be in charge of our medical care, including our complete medical history.
Crazy how their minds work.
My grandmother has been in and out of the hospital for cancer treatment for the last few years. She recently got diagnosed with a tumor in her brain. She has got excellent treament in Winnipeg. No long waiting, adequate access to specialists. She has had a new laser surgery and as of now, she probably has to go in to have the surgery again. She has only had to pay for the drugs, none of the chemo or surgeries. Without Canada’s healthcare system, I have no clue how they would pay for all that, even with insurance.
Although I have never lived up there for an extended period of time, i am a Candian citizen and half of my family lives there. Canadians are extremely proud of their healthcare system. While it is not perfect, they wouldn’t trade it with ours in a million years.
Says this blog’s resident socialist.
Yet, reality tells us that Canadians wait weeks and months for procedures Americans get immediately. And taxes are lower in America to boot, mostly because we don’t have to support a bulky medical system.
Of course, America’s system isn’t perfect either. We need to move away from this defacto subsidization of health care - where employers are forced to pay for the health care of their employees - and move to a system that makes citizens directly responsible for paying for their own health care.
Speaking of healthcare, I was reading an article in the new TIME (yeah I know it’s a shitty magazine and usually if I want to read a liberal mag I pick up the New Yorker because atleast their writers are talented, but TIME was the only thing worth reading in the doctor’s office) about Americans flying to India, Malaysia and some other Asian countries to recieve healthcare. Apparently many of the hospitals are gorgeous with a ritzy hotel atmosphere and state-of-the-art medical technology. Plus many of the operations are 25% the cost they are in the US. Apparently, some US businesses are actually encouraging their employees to seek healthcare for major operations in these countries by giving the employees cash incentives, because even with the incentives and travel expenses, its still drastically cheaper.
I’m trying to remember the last time I went up to Canada for a cutting edge medical procedure.
Or more likely when my daughter was in an accident we had an emergency CAT scan done at 8 pm. We didn’t have to do this but under the circustances I was happy that we got the negative (no problem) report.
Would that be done in Canadia?
Graeme,
Glad to hear your Grandmother had a good experience with socialized medicine. BUT..
I am sure there are are lot of people with anecdotal information about how good that system has treated them. There are also accounts of it’s failing.
“I have no clue how they would pay for all that, even with insurance.”
That statement reveals to me that many people have no clue about downside of socialized medicine.
If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free.
It is failing in England and other European countries and is only in the initial throes of failing in Canada. Good luck to your family and friends.
It seems obvious to everyone with a brain that when the cost of something is free you’re going to have to ration it somehow else.
I don’t quite get it why Libs don’t realize this.
Partially disagree. First off, companies are rarely forced to pay for it. Exceptions are Union jobs, and the new state laws mandating it in some areas. Matter of fact is that most companies choose to offer health benefits for obvious reasons--key employees would be off sick or with family illness if the company did not offer benefits. Plus it allows them to attract better workers. But the point has to be made that the health benefits at a company come at the same cost as a government program--namely either lower wages (private company plan) or higher taxes (government).
I agree that no company should be mandated to provide health benefits, but the flip side of that is that if we did not have a system of Medicaid and Medicare picking up the tab for people’s healthcare, the government would have no reason to force Walmart to pay for benefits. The point is that the government needs to completely stay out out of it.
Reality is that insurers exist to provide healthcare insurance options to companies and individuals, but by insuring companies or large groups, insurance companies are able to spread the risks and therefore lower premiums. It is the subsidization of medical care by medicare and medicaid that creates increased demand that allows the higher prices. Plus the AMA and other organizations ensure a reduced supply of doctors by only allowing so many to enter medical school.
The entire problem is that so many forces are conspiring to keep the market out of healthcare. I have less problems with insurance companies than with the AMA (The UNION FOR DOCTORS) and the government interference.