2 words define the problem:
Affirmative Action
.
It caused a general dumbing down of America.
General requirement levels were dropped across the board to allow everyone to qualify.
Even at the grocery store!
Remember back when the cashier would actually count your change back to you?
She did it without the register telling her how much to give back.
Very rarely do I see this happen now.
Anyway, the education system was hit hard in the late 70’s to get more kids through school instead of getting more kids educated.
THose kids are now “teachers”, cashiers,city council members, store managers & the like.
RebTex - 12:07pm on 07/19/2008
Either way, management has got to be able to effectively remove those who aren’t working well and replace them with those who will. If management can’t do that they can’t get rid of bad employees, and good employees have little incentive to keep performing.
Granted that the unions aren’t helping the situation, the first line of opposition is the government agencies like EEOC that make it impossible to get rid of a non-preforming employee without documented cause showing perversive activity on the part of the employee something that is very difficult to get. I know this from my many days of management in the private sector. This has gotten so bad that private industry almost exclusively uses down-sizing and other revenue related measures to weed out non-productive employees, something that is not available to the education system.
docdave - 12:07pm on 07/19/2008
Wouldn’t hurt either if most of the teachers weren’t culled from the bottoms of the class.
Hoss - 01:07pm on 07/19/2008
fyi
it is not that difficult to get rid of poor teachers. Proper steps must be followed at the administrative levels. The teachers union (or rather teachers association, as ND is a ‘right to work state’ has no desire to support poor educators. The association is there to make sure administration follows procedure.
It is far more difficult to remove poor administration than it is to remove poor teachers.
In my 25 years of teaching experience I have seen educators removed in minutes, I have seen them removed in years, and I have seen them remain in the classroom for an entire career. The difference in the scenarios is proactive administration. Not protective union/association.
imagine - 02:07pm on 07/19/2008
"Why Are Public Schools Bad At Hiring Good Teachers?”
Because Union contracts forbid them to hire on merit, instead requiring that the least competent be hired on an equal basis with the most competent?
Or perhaps it has to do with Union contracts which forbid schools from firing incompetent teachers?
6 of one, half dozen,,,,,,,,
2Hotel9 - 03:07pm on 07/19/2008
The operative word which everyone has missed here is tenure. Once a teacher has it - and in most states it comes automatically after three years - it is extremely difficult to remove an incompetent teacher.
There are three vital stages for every teacher where this could have or can be avoided.
1. At every college and university, an education major must show mastery of their subject area and serve an internship during which they are observed and evaluated on the job. Few, very few are weeded out at this critical first step.
2. Almost every state has enacted a “Teacher Tenure” law protecting teachers from “arbitrary dismissal” after serving a trial period in the classroom, ranging from two to three years. The best opportunity to nail an incompetent teacher is during this non-tenured time. Few are dismissed.
3. One by one, locally-elected school boards across the nation caved in to the NEA and the AFT on the issues of firing and merit more than 35 years ago. Any school board with enough backbone can undo these errors anytime they want to. Few have done so.
For the best understanding of this frustrating situation, read the ‘education’ chapter in THE PETER PRINCIPLE.
pparets - 08:07pm on 07/19/2008
unreal, another “say anything topic”....where not one listens.
once agan “Say anything” posts what they want, but no one pays attention....
imagine - 11:07pm on 07/19/2008
So Union protectionism has nothing to do with it. Right.
2Hotel9 - 03:07am on 07/20/2008
2hotel9: Yes and no. The NEA is not a ‘union’ in the sense that the UAW or Teamster’s are. The NEA is more like the Bar for lawyers.
Teachers do not shut down a school over a disciplined or fired teacher. Instead they win this battle at the negotiating table by strong-arming local school boards into agreement on topics like No Merit Pay, no merit advancement, ‘alternatives’ to firing and closed shops where teachers must pay NEA dues whether they join or not.
Local elected school boards are the lawful governing agencies for school operations. Most turn their authority over to a superintendent - almost always a former classroom teacher - and the rest is history.
Like I said, any school board with some backbone could undo many of these practices any time they want to. Most won’t.
pparets - 06:07am on 07/20/2008
Imagine: I paid careful attention to what you wrote but chose not to respond because much of what you said is simply not true on a national scale.
Example:
I have seen educators removed in minutes.
Well, yes, and so have I; but not for incompetence. Momentary removal is almost always connected to felonious behavior: violence against a student or co-worker, sexual misconduct or other criminal matter.
The rest of your post is applicable only in firm right-to-work states- there are not many of those - and then only under local contract agreement.
2 words define the problem:
Affirmative Action
.
It caused a general dumbing down of America.
General requirement levels were dropped across the board to allow everyone to qualify.
Even at the grocery store!
Remember back when the cashier would actually count your change back to you?
She did it without the register telling her how much to give back.
Very rarely do I see this happen now.
Anyway, the education system was hit hard in the late 70’s to get more kids through school instead of getting more kids educated.
THose kids are now “teachers”, cashiers,city council members, store managers & the like.
Granted that the unions aren’t helping the situation, the first line of opposition is the government agencies like EEOC that make it impossible to get rid of a non-preforming employee without documented cause showing perversive activity on the part of the employee something that is very difficult to get. I know this from my many days of management in the private sector. This has gotten so bad that private industry almost exclusively uses down-sizing and other revenue related measures to weed out non-productive employees, something that is not available to the education system.
Wouldn’t hurt either if most of the teachers weren’t culled from the bottoms of the class.
fyi
has no desire to support poor educators. The association is there to make sure administration follows procedure.
it is not that difficult to get rid of poor teachers. Proper steps must be followed at the administrative levels. The teachers union (or rather teachers association, as ND is a ‘right to work state’
It is far more difficult to remove poor administration than it is to remove poor teachers.
In my 25 years of teaching experience I have seen educators removed in minutes, I have seen them removed in years, and I have seen them remain in the classroom for an entire career. The difference in the scenarios is proactive administration. Not protective union/association.
"Why Are Public Schools Bad At Hiring Good Teachers?”
Because Union contracts forbid them to hire on merit, instead requiring that the least competent be hired on an equal basis with the most competent?
Or perhaps it has to do with Union contracts which forbid schools from firing incompetent teachers?
6 of one, half dozen,,,,,,,,
The operative word which everyone has missed here is tenure. Once a teacher has it - and in most states it comes automatically after three years - it is extremely difficult to remove an incompetent teacher.
There are three vital stages for every teacher where this could have or can be avoided.
1. At every college and university, an education major must show mastery of their subject area and serve an internship during which they are observed and evaluated on the job. Few, very few are weeded out at this critical first step.
2. Almost every state has enacted a “Teacher Tenure” law protecting teachers from “arbitrary dismissal” after serving a trial period in the classroom, ranging from two to three years. The best opportunity to nail an incompetent teacher is during this non-tenured time. Few are dismissed.
3. One by one, locally-elected school boards across the nation caved in to the NEA and the AFT on the issues of firing and merit more than 35 years ago. Any school board with enough backbone can undo these errors anytime they want to. Few have done so.
For the best understanding of this frustrating situation, read the ‘education’ chapter in THE PETER PRINCIPLE.
unreal, another “say anything topic”....where not one listens.
once agan “Say anything” posts what they want, but no one pays attention....
So Union protectionism has nothing to do with it. Right.
2hotel9: Yes and no. The NEA is not a ‘union’ in the sense that the UAW or Teamster’s are. The NEA is more like the Bar for lawyers.
Teachers do not shut down a school over a disciplined or fired teacher. Instead they win this battle at the negotiating table by strong-arming local school boards into agreement on topics like No Merit Pay, no merit advancement, ‘alternatives’ to firing and closed shops where teachers must pay NEA dues whether they join or not.
Local elected school boards are the lawful governing agencies for school operations. Most turn their authority over to a superintendent - almost always a former classroom teacher - and the rest is history.
Like I said, any school board with some backbone could undo many of these practices any time they want to. Most won’t.
Imagine: I paid careful attention to what you wrote but chose not to respond because much of what you said is simply not true on a national scale.
Example:
Well, yes, and so have I; but not for incompetence. Momentary removal is almost always connected to felonious behavior: violence against a student or co-worker, sexual misconduct or other criminal matter.
The rest of your post is applicable only in firm right-to-work states- there are not many of those - and then only under local contract agreement.