and it is questionable how the Bill of Rights applies
No, it’s not actually. The Indian Civil Rights Act, 25 U.S.C. § 1302 applies the Constitution’s protections on the reservations, specifically for the sake of our discussion the right to free speech and the right to due process.
It is questionalbe about how it applies to the 50 states, it is certainly questionable of how it applies to reservations.
No, the Bill of Rights does actually apply to every state in the union.
Setting aside Constitutional issues, however, how about the tribe not even follow its own laws as I noted above? Do they not even have to follow those either, or does the universal “sovereignty” trump card play there as well?
Rob - 03:02pm on 02/19/2008
To soverign native man, yellow lodge and all the others. Why do you not recognize you ‘natives’ all want it both ways ? You claim soverignty when you want to something unethical, or something not legal in America, or abuse mistreat others, and abuse the civil rights of employees and people who are injured by the Tribe. Yet, you, like other Tribal members claim “rights for indians” and all that when you INSIST the Tribes be given that which you won’t give- the civil liberties, rights and ability for judicial recourse… so, when you walk off-rez onto someone else’s land, slip & Fall, or take a job, you sue in a second (and thereby recognize American judicial law) to demand recourse and payment, yet you (all tribes) refuse to grant the same rights to anyone else. Anyone.
eventually, this imbalance will change. And I will seek to be a large voice for the voiceless, the weak and the weary—that is all those who have been harmed by these Tribes. We will claim back our rights and demand they are provided.
I’m sure your only response will be to claim how awful your ancestors had it. Mine did too. Now is now. Your tribes receive far more dollars and help than most other groups. Time to stand on your own and be “soverign.”
withheld - 03:02pm on 02/19/2008
If an Indian came off the “sovereign” land of a reservation onto the “sovereign” land of the United States neither Americans, nor the Indians, would tolerate that person being denied their rights. Free speech, due process, etc. And rightfully so.
Yet it seems like many here are more than willing to give the tribes a pass when they deny those rights on the reservations, using the “sovereign” trump card as an excuse.
Wrong is wrong, even if you buy into the idea that the reservations are sovereign.
Though, if they’re sovereign, I wonder why Indians are allowed to vote in our elections and take our tax dollars.
Rob - 03:02pm on 02/19/2008
Yellow Lodge said, We are LandLords and your rent is way overDue, you been sliding by too long, now you feel angry about having to pay your dues.....
Sounds like a call to war.
Go ahead and keep talking like that. See where it gets you.
You’re younger than most of us here at this site and you have the nerve to talk as if you have been here long before us. You better check your birth certificate there, skippy. If you want to play the “who was here first” game, you’ll lose.
In the meantime - drink up, dope up, and die young. You’ve earned your lot in life. That’s why you’re so angry about your pathetic lot in life. Most of us don’t spend our time thinking about you like you think about us. We only remember when one of the reservations come into the news for their savage behavior. Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.
Something to ponder: Indians were crapping outside before the “white man” showed up. They are still crapping outside. What is “way overDue” again? Indians can’t even wipe their own asses without help.
likwidshoe - 04:02pm on 02/19/2008
Wow, you CHOOSE your perspective and your words....And they truly reflect WHO YOU ARE....
there is so much misinformation on this blog, may I remind you - you can choose to be informed rather than ignorant. It is a CHOICE.
Yellow Lodge - 06:02pm on 02/19/2008
Clearly, Yellow Lodge, you aren’t making the right choice.
Rob - 06:02pm on 02/19/2008
In the meantime - drink up, dope up, and die young. You’ve earned your lot in life. That’s why you’re so angry about your pathetic lot in life. Most of us don’t spend our time thinking about you like you think about us. We only remember when one of the reservations come into the news for their savage behavior. Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.
Something to ponder: Indians were crapping outside before the “white man” showed up. They are still crapping outside. What is “way overDue” again? Indians can’t even wipe their own asses without help.
Whoa...slow down there lik.
I have come to respect your words and beliefs, but I must say that your comments above can and will be construed as offensive to some Native Americans.
Now I don’t know if that was your intention or not.
However, I will say this about the issue posted. There are some tribes out there that don’t make the best decisions on issues, no government is perfect.
That doesn’t mean that ALL TRIBES are the same. There are tribes out there that are very accountable with the money supplied by the federal government and do a lot of good for their tribal members who choose to take advantage of it.
Just because TWO tribes have banished non-tribal members, it doesn’t mean that the tribes are out of control and running around wasting tax dollars.
Creasy - 08:02pm on 02/19/2008
Point taken Creasy.
I should make clear that I was speaking to those individuals who have sacrificed their individuality to the group.
likwidshoe - 09:02pm on 02/19/2008
the post (Rob I think?) that said, “Though, if they’re sovereign, I wonder why Indians are allowed to vote in our elections and take our tax dollars.”
As the recession continues to grow, more people will begin to think about the billions of MY TAX Dollars going (being “given to” handed over to") the tribes and more scrutiny will begin to emerge as how this money is being spent. And… the conversation will begin about their “have it both ways,” perspective. Vote in “our elections”? People will ask, well who are “you” Indians? Are you American citizens with rights to vote? Then you should abide my American laws. Or , are you “sovereign? “ If you want to have your own laws, your own ways, practice your traditions, with money we gave you, then you better wise up and realize the ones who give you your money expect respect for the American traditions too. Americans who fought vigorously in the 60s for Civil rights, Americans who died protecting equal rights FOR YOU as well as all others.
YOUR RIGHTS In OUR AMERICAN LAND are valued ! We care that each of you has the right to apply for a job, the right to sue a landlord who discriminates against you, the right to live according to your traditions.
So explain to me some rationale reason you won’t acknowledge and recognize the same rights you demand on OUR LAND for people who walk on what you call YOUR LAND?
I’m confused… can you explain it?
I doubt it. Since there is no rationale and balanced, reasonable reason for this imbalance, I’ll tell you it will change. It will change! it will. We are in a recession. Most Americans and those residing in America don’t know how much money your Tribes receive. I had no idea the kind of millions of dollars you get until I became informed. As the Federal gov’t begins to tighten its belt, more scrutiny will be paid to the money given without much benefit.
What benefit do Tribes receive for all this money? They “run their own health care systems? “ ummm. try again. Those health care systems are often mismanaged, hand out drugs, and few doctors stay long on the Tribes for the poor treatment they receive from Tribal members
Education? Many tribal educational centers have been grounds for years of abuse of the children. Why would that be? Lack of American government oversight agencies. You see American educational and health care and any other systems are managed by humans who have failings. But, because we have a balanced government system, people can bring accountability to any mismanaged system and bring it into court. When they do, those humans and human organizations are brought to justice that have failings—either financially or in some circumstances, criminally.
But tribes want nothing made public so they hide their failings, they pay off those who do wrong to leave. The tribes don’t recognize the benefit of judicial recourse, so the abusive practices continue.
Balanced government brings “light” into organizations and systems. You would do well to copy the practices that work—the American systems. If you do, you might be able to keep those BILLIONS of our dollars. If you continue not to, your tribal governments will die off and fade away because we will pull our tax dollars from systems as broken, unethical, abusive and rampant with fraud as yours are.
name withheld - 10:02pm on 02/19/2008
As the recession continues to grow...
Outside of “Tribal”, the state of Michigan, and inner city areas (governed by the same failed ideas), America is not in a recession.
No, it’s not actually. The Indian Civil Rights Act, 25 U.S.C. § 1302 applies the Constitution’s protections on the reservations, specifically for the sake of our discussion the right to free speech and the right to due process.
No, the Bill of Rights does actually apply to every state in the union.
Setting aside Constitutional issues, however, how about the tribe not even follow its own laws as I noted above? Do they not even have to follow those either, or does the universal “sovereignty” trump card play there as well?
To soverign native man, yellow lodge and all the others. Why do you not recognize you ‘natives’ all want it both ways ? You claim soverignty when you want to something unethical, or something not legal in America, or abuse mistreat others, and abuse the civil rights of employees and people who are injured by the Tribe. Yet, you, like other Tribal members claim “rights for indians” and all that when you INSIST the Tribes be given that which you won’t give- the civil liberties, rights and ability for judicial recourse… so, when you walk off-rez onto someone else’s land, slip & Fall, or take a job, you sue in a second (and thereby recognize American judicial law) to demand recourse and payment, yet you (all tribes) refuse to grant the same rights to anyone else. Anyone.
eventually, this imbalance will change. And I will seek to be a large voice for the voiceless, the weak and the weary—that is all those who have been harmed by these Tribes. We will claim back our rights and demand they are provided.
I’m sure your only response will be to claim how awful your ancestors had it. Mine did too. Now is now. Your tribes receive far more dollars and help than most other groups. Time to stand on your own and be “soverign.”
If an Indian came off the “sovereign” land of a reservation onto the “sovereign” land of the United States neither Americans, nor the Indians, would tolerate that person being denied their rights. Free speech, due process, etc. And rightfully so.
Yet it seems like many here are more than willing to give the tribes a pass when they deny those rights on the reservations, using the “sovereign” trump card as an excuse.
Wrong is wrong, even if you buy into the idea that the reservations are sovereign.
Though, if they’re sovereign, I wonder why Indians are allowed to vote in our elections and take our tax dollars.
Yellow Lodge said, We are LandLords and your rent is way overDue, you been sliding by too long, now you feel angry about having to pay your dues.....
Sounds like a call to war.
Go ahead and keep talking like that. See where it gets you.
You’re younger than most of us here at this site and you have the nerve to talk as if you have been here long before us. You better check your birth certificate there, skippy. If you want to play the “who was here first” game, you’ll lose.
In the meantime - drink up, dope up, and die young. You’ve earned your lot in life. That’s why you’re so angry about your pathetic lot in life. Most of us don’t spend our time thinking about you like you think about us. We only remember when one of the reservations come into the news for their savage behavior. Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.
Something to ponder: Indians were crapping outside before the “white man” showed up. They are still crapping outside. What is “way overDue” again? Indians can’t even wipe their own asses without help.
Wow, you CHOOSE your perspective and your words....And they truly reflect WHO YOU ARE....
there is so much misinformation on this blog, may I remind you - you can choose to be informed rather than ignorant. It is a CHOICE.
Clearly, Yellow Lodge, you aren’t making the right choice.
Whoa...slow down there lik.
I have come to respect your words and beliefs, but I must say that your comments above can and will be construed as offensive to some Native Americans.
Now I don’t know if that was your intention or not.
However, I will say this about the issue posted. There are some tribes out there that don’t make the best decisions on issues, no government is perfect.
That doesn’t mean that ALL TRIBES are the same. There are tribes out there that are very accountable with the money supplied by the federal government and do a lot of good for their tribal members who choose to take advantage of it.
Just because TWO tribes have banished non-tribal members, it doesn’t mean that the tribes are out of control and running around wasting tax dollars.
Point taken Creasy.
I should make clear that I was speaking to those individuals who have sacrificed their individuality to the group.
the post (Rob I think?) that said, “Though, if they’re sovereign, I wonder why Indians are allowed to vote in our elections and take our tax dollars.”
As the recession continues to grow, more people will begin to think about the billions of MY TAX Dollars going (being “given to” handed over to") the tribes and more scrutiny will begin to emerge as how this money is being spent. And… the conversation will begin about their “have it both ways,” perspective. Vote in “our elections”? People will ask, well who are “you” Indians? Are you American citizens with rights to vote? Then you should abide my American laws. Or , are you “sovereign? “ If you want to have your own laws, your own ways, practice your traditions, with money we gave you, then you better wise up and realize the ones who give you your money expect respect for the American traditions too. Americans who fought vigorously in the 60s for Civil rights, Americans who died protecting equal rights FOR YOU as well as all others.
YOUR RIGHTS In OUR AMERICAN LAND are valued ! We care that each of you has the right to apply for a job, the right to sue a landlord who discriminates against you, the right to live according to your traditions.
So explain to me some rationale reason you won’t acknowledge and recognize the same rights you demand on OUR LAND for people who walk on what you call YOUR LAND?
I’m confused… can you explain it?
I doubt it. Since there is no rationale and balanced, reasonable reason for this imbalance, I’ll tell you it will change. It will change! it will. We are in a recession. Most Americans and those residing in America don’t know how much money your Tribes receive. I had no idea the kind of millions of dollars you get until I became informed. As the Federal gov’t begins to tighten its belt, more scrutiny will be paid to the money given without much benefit.
What benefit do Tribes receive for all this money? They “run their own health care systems? “ ummm. try again. Those health care systems are often mismanaged, hand out drugs, and few doctors stay long on the Tribes for the poor treatment they receive from Tribal members
Education? Many tribal educational centers have been grounds for years of abuse of the children. Why would that be? Lack of American government oversight agencies. You see American educational and health care and any other systems are managed by humans who have failings. But, because we have a balanced government system, people can bring accountability to any mismanaged system and bring it into court. When they do, those humans and human organizations are brought to justice that have failings—either financially or in some circumstances, criminally.
But tribes want nothing made public so they hide their failings, they pay off those who do wrong to leave. The tribes don’t recognize the benefit of judicial recourse, so the abusive practices continue.
Balanced government brings “light” into organizations and systems. You would do well to copy the practices that work—the American systems. If you do, you might be able to keep those BILLIONS of our dollars. If you continue not to, your tribal governments will die off and fade away because we will pull our tax dollars from systems as broken, unethical, abusive and rampant with fraud as yours are.
As the recession continues to grow...
Outside of “Tribal”, the state of Michigan, and inner city areas (governed by the same failed ideas), America is not in a recession.