leads me to ask about the focus here. Are we talking North Dakota teachers, or in general, because there is [sic] not a tenured teacher in this state.
Well while it may not qualify as tenure, it’s certainly harder to fire a teacher than it is to fire a worker in the private sector in terms of rules and regulations. And that’s a big, big problem with public schools.
Big school systems, like New York for instance, have entire buildings full of “rubber rooms” where poor teachers who can’t be fired thanks to their unions go to sit all day and collect a paycheck.
I have no problem paying what it takes to attract good, qualified teachers. I also have no problem with recognizing that it probably takes a bit more money to attract teachers to our more rural schools than the more urban ones.
But be that as it may, teacher pay should be driven by the job market and not by emotional “more is never enough” pleas from teachers, politicians and unions.
We are spending somewhere around $12,000 per student in North Dakota. That’s $240,000 per classroom of 20 kids every single year.
I’d like to know why that’s not enough to educate our children.
Rob - 03:04pm on 04/30/2008
Yes, there are some incompetent teachers, but that doesn’t mean all teachers are.
Regardless of a public or a private sector… just as in any “profession”, there are the bad and the good.
I no longer believe in the public school system and I have zero confidence in it today. (which, is why I’m no longer associated with it)
There are thousands of overworked and excellent teachers out there in the public schools that are just as frustrated as we are about the current situations.
Damning all teachers for your dissatisfaction of the system doesn’t debate the situation at all.
BTW Whistler ... do you, by any chance, happen to be a proffesional of some sort?
Anna - 03:04pm on 04/30/2008
Specifically that lawyer reference was my answer to Anna asking if I didn’t consider teachers “professionals.” I guess that’s a word that means different things to different people.
I consider doctors and lawyers to be professionals. Although I have a good job, I don’t consider myself to be one.
The Whistler - 03:04pm on 04/30/2008
Cry me a river.
SECTION 2. AMENDMENT. If House Bill No. 1034 does not become effective, section
15-47-33 of the 1997 Supplement to the North Dakota Century Code is amended and reenacted as
follows:
15-47-33. Length of elementary and secondary school year term.
1.
All elementary and secondary schools in this state shall provide for a school term of at
least one hundred eighty days apportioned as follows:
a.
One hundred seventy-three full days of instruction;
Kevin they are also paid, correctly so, for some days preparing and in service days. Fair enough
The Whistler - 03:04pm on 04/30/2008
Have you ever been to an “in service day” or “North Dakota education association instructional conference?”
Think “party central.”
Kevin - 03:04pm on 04/30/2008
With my mouth, I’d get killed. Stabbed to death with those blunt end scissors no doubt.
The Whistler - 04:04pm on 04/30/2008
Well, Whistler, when an engineer gets his 4-year degree, he starts at around $75,000. When a computer engineer graduates, he starts at around $65,000. A doctor, lawyer or dentist can expect to start at around $90,000. All will move swiftly up from there.
Lawyers work with getting people large amounts of money, OR keeping them out of jail. Both are worth quite a bit of money and they get compensated as such. Bad lawyers tend to go away. Or they work for tiny firms where they get paid crap.\
Doctors have the most stressful jobs in the country. They literally have life in their hand. If they aren’t up to snuff, people can die, on even the most routine procedures.
Engineers design cars, computers, etc. Depending on the field they work in, again, people can die. If a car is designed wrong, people can die. If a rocket is designed wrong, it explodes. If a program is done wrong, money can be lost hand over fist.
If a teacher does poorly....the kid can be held back a grade and they can try again. There’s simply no comparison.
None of them takes home 2 - 3 hours of student work to correct each night or has to deal with protected disruptive students and rude, hostile ‘parents’.
As a wedding DJ, for each show I get, I have usually an hour of checking the paperwork I get to try and get an idea of what they want before I meet them. Then I meet with the client for between 1-3 hours. Then I have to call the photographer, videographer, minister, hall, etc, so we’re all on the same page. The average “homework” time for each show for me is 3-5 hours. During the summer, when I can have as many as 5 parties a week, I have more homework time than teachers have work time during the year. Often times, my brides or grooms call me repeatedly cause theyre nervous and I have to calm them down. Sometimes a single party can have 10 or more hours of prep time. (This is all being worked around a second job btw).
And that night I also have to deal with mean spirited party goers. And if I don’t bring my A game every night to throw a kickass party, I can lose my bonus that quarter (which is earned anyways), and lose money from my paycheck.
HOLY CRAP! I deserve health insurance, pension, et. al. Where’s my sympathy?
Duh! Because they are required to complete a 4 year degree and, in many cases, a 5 year degree just like any other profession.
A university education doesn’t cost any less for an educator than it does for an engineer, but the life-time incomes are much lower.
Most jobs nowadays require a degree. In Kansas, they’re starting to require 4 year degrees for even their secretaries.
Regardless, engineering degrees do indeed cost more than education degrees. Engineering degrees require lab classes (always more expensive), buying supplies for school, more in class hours, more homework hours, etc.
So the engineer does more work and pays more money for their degree...to get a job where they do more work and spend more time. Yet we’re complaining they make more money. How dumb.
Kenny - 04:04pm on 04/30/2008
leads me to ask about the focus here. Are we talking North Dakota teachers, or in general, because there is [sic] not a tenured teacher in this state.
All right, I understand I got all uppity about another members use of pronouns and probably have this coming, but after re-reading my quote, my subject and my predicate appear to be matching, so I’m wondering why it’s being called into question...but I don’t want to distract from the main gist of this thread. Personally, I’d like to kill two birds with one stone: Falling student achievement and what I perceive to be some people’s outrage at the 180 day work year by making the school year longer. It’s embarrassing that we have one of the shortest school years of any industrialized nation.
Old&InTheWay - 04:04pm on 04/30/2008
I refuse to judge a profession on the hours they get paid to work. Nor, will I judge a profession on the amount they get paid.
Until, I can personally, experience it first hand, I have no right to disrespect it.
Perhaps, some of you should do the same?
Well while it may not qualify as tenure, it’s certainly harder to fire a teacher than it is to fire a worker in the private sector in terms of rules and regulations. And that’s a big, big problem with public schools.
Big school systems, like New York for instance, have entire buildings full of “rubber rooms” where poor teachers who can’t be fired thanks to their unions go to sit all day and collect a paycheck.
I have no problem paying what it takes to attract good, qualified teachers. I also have no problem with recognizing that it probably takes a bit more money to attract teachers to our more rural schools than the more urban ones.
But be that as it may, teacher pay should be driven by the job market and not by emotional “more is never enough” pleas from teachers, politicians and unions.
We are spending somewhere around $12,000 per student in North Dakota. That’s $240,000 per classroom of 20 kids every single year.
I’d like to know why that’s not enough to educate our children.
Yes, there are some incompetent teachers, but that doesn’t mean all teachers are.
Regardless of a public or a private sector… just as in any “profession”, there are the bad and the good.
I no longer believe in the public school system and I have zero confidence in it today. (which, is why I’m no longer associated with it)
There are thousands of overworked and excellent teachers out there in the public schools that are just as frustrated as we are about the current situations.
Damning all teachers for your dissatisfaction of the system doesn’t debate the situation at all.
BTW Whistler ... do you, by any chance, happen to be a proffesional of some sort?
Specifically that lawyer reference was my answer to Anna asking if I didn’t consider teachers “professionals.” I guess that’s a word that means different things to different people.
I consider doctors and lawyers to be professionals. Although I have a good job, I don’t consider myself to be one.
Cry me a river.
http://tinyurl.com/4k4ytm
Kevin they are also paid, correctly so, for some days preparing and in service days. Fair enough
Have you ever been to an “in service day” or “North Dakota education association instructional conference?”
Think “party central.”
With my mouth, I’d get killed. Stabbed to death with those blunt end scissors no doubt.
Lawyers work with getting people large amounts of money, OR keeping them out of jail. Both are worth quite a bit of money and they get compensated as such. Bad lawyers tend to go away. Or they work for tiny firms where they get paid crap.\
Doctors have the most stressful jobs in the country. They literally have life in their hand. If they aren’t up to snuff, people can die, on even the most routine procedures.
Engineers design cars, computers, etc. Depending on the field they work in, again, people can die. If a car is designed wrong, people can die. If a rocket is designed wrong, it explodes. If a program is done wrong, money can be lost hand over fist.
If a teacher does poorly....the kid can be held back a grade and they can try again. There’s simply no comparison.
As a wedding DJ, for each show I get, I have usually an hour of checking the paperwork I get to try and get an idea of what they want before I meet them. Then I meet with the client for between 1-3 hours. Then I have to call the photographer, videographer, minister, hall, etc, so we’re all on the same page. The average “homework” time for each show for me is 3-5 hours. During the summer, when I can have as many as 5 parties a week, I have more homework time than teachers have work time during the year. Often times, my brides or grooms call me repeatedly cause theyre nervous and I have to calm them down. Sometimes a single party can have 10 or more hours of prep time. (This is all being worked around a second job btw).
And that night I also have to deal with mean spirited party goers. And if I don’t bring my A game every night to throw a kickass party, I can lose my bonus that quarter (which is earned anyways), and lose money from my paycheck.
HOLY CRAP! I deserve health insurance, pension, et. al. Where’s my sympathy?
Most jobs nowadays require a degree. In Kansas, they’re starting to require 4 year degrees for even their secretaries.
Regardless, engineering degrees do indeed cost more than education degrees. Engineering degrees require lab classes (always more expensive), buying supplies for school, more in class hours, more homework hours, etc.
So the engineer does more work and pays more money for their degree...to get a job where they do more work and spend more time. Yet we’re complaining they make more money. How dumb.
I refuse to judge a profession on the hours they get paid to work. Nor, will I judge a profession on the amount they get paid.
Until, I can personally, experience it first hand, I have no right to disrespect it.
Perhaps, some of you should do the same?