There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days). But then again, why would you know anything more about things beyond Gotham than you do about the Armed Forces?
And you still have not acknowledged that the average first term member of the Armed Forces is of considerably higher than average intelligence when compared to their age cadre from the general population.
Rodney Graves - 03:05pm on 05/05/2008
Rodney,
There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days).
I’m not sure how that factors into our argument.
And you still have not acknowledged that the average first term member of the Armed Forces is of considerably higher than average intelligence when compared to their age cadre from the general population.
Lets assume that the average first term member of the Armed Forces has an IQ of 140 and several graduate degrees. How does that change the fact that you still only need a GED to enter into the armed forces and that it is therefore a viable option for people whose lack of education prevents them from getting a job anywhere else?
[I wrote]There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days).
I’m not sure how that factors into our argument.
Way back up in the thread (in your initial reply) you wrote:
We don’t all live in sprawling wheat-land where we can set up a farm.
Since you didn’t take the general point when I replied:
You need to get out of Gotham.
There is plenty of intelligent and even well read life beyond Soddom on the Hudson.
I found it necessary to educate you.
As regards your:
Lets assume that the average first term member of the Armed Forces has an IQ of 140 and several graduate degrees.
Above average for their age group in both measured intelligence (ASVAB) and education (100% H.S. Diploma or GED). Disproportionately from the top three quintiles of family income.
How does that change the fact that you still only need a GED to enter into the armed forces and that it is therefore a viable option for people whose lack of education prevents them from getting a job anywhere else?
Most who are prevented “from getting a job anywhere else” can’t find work for reasons other than education, and are either screened out in the recuitment process, or during basic training.
The flaw in your argument is that you’re talking about that which you clearly know nothing of.
Rodney Graves - 04:05pm on 05/05/2008
Rodney,
Now we’re getting somewhere, but still no closer to logical flow on your end:
Most who are prevented “from getting a job anywhere else” can’t find work for reasons other than education, and are either screened out in the recuitment process, or during basic training.
That doesn’t change the fact that those who are prevented from getting a job for a lack of education, but not those “other reasons” you mentioned, can still turn to the army—which conforms to King’s statement.
The flaw in your above argument is called ”affirming the consequent.” If A then B is not the same as if B then A.
Hairy Polemic - 05:05pm on 05/05/2008
A little perspective from Stephen King’s hometown.
The Army Captain mentioned here grew up a few doors down the street from King’s house.
A doctor’s son, Tim Wright was a Latin scholar with a 3.8 average in high school. Admitted to Princeton, he chose to go to West Point instead.
It sounds to me like Tim can read. I didn’t grow up next door but I did play little league with Owen King. From that point on, our lives diverged and Owen eventually went on to college and made something of himself as a writer. I… well, I sadly found myself with few options and ended up at Annapolis. From there my life kept going downhill, hitting rock bottom four years later when I was forced into the loser catch-all world of Naval aviation and the mindless drudgery of piloting high-performance aircraft.
If only Stephen King had yelled out to me to “Read, kid!” as an 11 year old ballplayer…
BD - 06:05pm on 05/05/2008
BD,
How does your anecdote dispute what King said? You are doing what Rodney just did: Just because you find people in the army who have great educations (and I’m sure that all of the officers do) doesn’t mean you won’t find people who went into the army because their lack of education precluded them from doing anything else.
Why is it so difficult to grasp this simple logic:
If A --> B does not mean if B --> A
To illustrate for you simply:
If all people who are blind bump into walls, does not mean that all people who bump into walls must be blind.
Hairy Polemic - 06:05pm on 05/05/2008
I know this man who grew up on a farm in the Heartland of North Dakota. When he was 18 years old he enlisted in the army during the Viet Nam war era. After he served his country he went on to college and earned a Bachelors degree in mathematics with emphasis in engineering.
Next week is our annual corporate shareholders meeting. We are a fortune 500 company. The CEO of our company is paid an annual salary of $1.9 million dollars. For the last three years, we shareholders, with the board of directors direction, have granted that CEO a bonus of $4.5 million dollars in corporate stock.
Not bad for a farm kid, who served in the army.
Mickey - 06:05pm on 05/05/2008
Has anyone taken the time to explain to this waste of human genetic material that you have to be literate to enlist. It’s not like it was when I raised my right hand the first time holdig a lottery number in the other.
GM Cassel AMH1(AW) USN RET - 07:05pm on 05/05/2008
...people who went into the army because their lack of education precluded them from doing anything else.
Woof, I worked on a landscaping crew during my summers off from high school. And believe me, the Army wouldn’t have been a valid option for some of those guys. The military is not a haven of last resort for people with no other choice. As others have pointed out, new recruits are actually above average, in terms of educational attainment and economic background, compared to their age group as a whole.
And I’m not going to argue what King said. I know what he said. Being a reader of his, and being from the same town, I watched the broadcast on C-SPAN last night, even suffering through his wife’s sleep-inducing talk.
After a decade plus of uniformed service, including a couple of tours in joint environments alongside the Army, I know that there are a handful of people who perceive that enlisting is their only choice, when in reality there are always options if you’re willing to apply yourself. Those people who feel like they had no choice are few and far between, and dimwits are even more of a rarity in today’s highly technical military. Illiterate dimwits are totally absent.
So, in short, I know what King said, and I disagree that the military is some kind of last resort. I also know what he implied. King, as a one-time English teacher, is surely an advocate of reading between the lines and divining the deeper meaning of the words written on the page or spoken by a lecturer. It’s quite obvious that he regards military service as an inferior choice, or else he wouldn’t use it as a scare tactic. “Read, or you’ll end up a lowly Army person!”
BD - 08:05pm on 05/05/2008
Alright, you win. King is a traitor to America.
Once again, called on your stupid assumptions you issue reduce your opponents arguments to the absurd. No one has suggested King is a traitor. Just an idiot and a prick.
I’m not defending King, but merely attacking your stupid, touchy, assumptions about what he said.
His comments:
But the fact is, if you can read, you can walk into a job later on. But if you can’t you’ve got, you know, Iraq, something like that. It’s not as bright.
So, if you can read, you can get any job you want. If you can’t, you’re a soldier. He said EXACTLY what I claimed. And since you have repeatedly slandered our troops as idiots and defended anyone who said as such, you’re just doing what you always do.
And you’re not intelligent enough to actually defend this position, so you keep linking to logical fallacies as if that makes your point. “Well, sure I’m wrong overall, but there are like, conditions, where I could be right. So you know, that makes me not really wrong.”
The individual justifications are:
“Well, they have nowhere else to go!”
Oh please. If they can’t get something as basic as a minimum wage job...they WILL NOT GET into the army. There are intelligence and proficiency tests that you have to pass to get in. While you obviously don’t have to be a genius, you have to have at least average intelligence. Maybe you genuinely believe that the people in the army can’t sign on at McDonalds, landscaping, or vice versa...but the rest of us are not under such delusions.
“Disproportionately, people use the military to further their education.”
This undermines your point. These people are using the army to FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION. If education is the determiner of intelligence, as you seem to be claiming, the army is clearly superior to other jobs, as it is the only job to actively seek to increase the intelligence of its employees.
“A->B does not mean B->A”
But you haven’t proved A->B yet. A GED is the educational equivalent of a high school diploma. You have to have the same range of knowledge as you do with the ACT, SAT, or some college intro tests.
“Some people see the military as a last resort.”
None of those people see the military as a last resort because of education. The military has long been a last resort for those in prison. “If the military can’t straighten you out, you go to jail forever” is not the same as “you are stupid, so go to the military.” And the military has a GREAT track record of turning these people around.
You’re simply not going to find anyone who suddenly wakes up one day and says “Well, crap, I have no choice but to be a soldier.” It. Just. Doesn’t. Happen.
Hairy,
There a lot of educated folks out amongst “the wheat fields” and most successful farmers hold bachelors degrees or better (most successful family farms are LLC’s with thousands of acres these days). But then again, why would you know anything more about things beyond Gotham than you do about the Armed Forces?
And you still have not acknowledged that the average first term member of the Armed Forces is of considerably higher than average intelligence when compared to their age cadre from the general population.
Rodney,
I’m not sure how that factors into our argument.
Lets assume that the average first term member of the Armed Forces has an IQ of 140 and several graduate degrees. How does that change the fact that you still only need a GED to enter into the armed forces and that it is therefore a viable option for people whose lack of education prevents them from getting a job anywhere else?
Here’s the flaw in your argument.
Hairy picks nits:
Way back up in the thread (in your initial reply) you wrote:
Since you didn’t take the general point when I replied:
I found it necessary to educate you.
As regards your:
Above average for their age group in both measured intelligence (ASVAB) and education (100% H.S. Diploma or GED). Disproportionately from the top three quintiles of family income.
Most who are prevented “from getting a job anywhere else” can’t find work for reasons other than education, and are either screened out in the recuitment process, or during basic training.
The flaw in your argument is that you’re talking about that which you clearly know nothing of.
Rodney,
Now we’re getting somewhere, but still no closer to logical flow on your end:
That doesn’t change the fact that those who are prevented from getting a job for a lack of education, but not those “other reasons” you mentioned, can still turn to the army—which conforms to King’s statement.
The flaw in your above argument is called ”affirming the consequent.” If A then B is not the same as if B then A.
A little perspective from Stephen King’s hometown.
The Army Captain mentioned here grew up a few doors down the street from King’s house.
It sounds to me like Tim can read. I didn’t grow up next door but I did play little league with Owen King. From that point on, our lives diverged and Owen eventually went on to college and made something of himself as a writer. I… well, I sadly found myself with few options and ended up at Annapolis. From there my life kept going downhill, hitting rock bottom four years later when I was forced into the loser catch-all world of Naval aviation and the mindless drudgery of piloting high-performance aircraft.
If only Stephen King had yelled out to me to “Read, kid!” as an 11 year old ballplayer…
BD,
How does your anecdote dispute what King said? You are doing what Rodney just did: Just because you find people in the army who have great educations (and I’m sure that all of the officers do) doesn’t mean you won’t find people who went into the army because their lack of education precluded them from doing anything else.
Why is it so difficult to grasp this simple logic:
If A --> B does not mean if B --> A
To illustrate for you simply:
If all people who are blind bump into walls, does not mean that all people who bump into walls must be blind.
I know this man who grew up on a farm in the Heartland of North Dakota. When he was 18 years old he enlisted in the army during the Viet Nam war era. After he served his country he went on to college and earned a Bachelors degree in mathematics with emphasis in engineering.
Next week is our annual corporate shareholders meeting. We are a fortune 500 company. The CEO of our company is paid an annual salary of $1.9 million dollars. For the last three years, we shareholders, with the board of directors direction, have granted that CEO a bonus of $4.5 million dollars in corporate stock.
Not bad for a farm kid, who served in the army.
Has anyone taken the time to explain to this waste of human genetic material that you have to be literate to enlist. It’s not like it was when I raised my right hand the first time holdig a lottery number in the other.
Woof, I worked on a landscaping crew during my summers off from high school. And believe me, the Army wouldn’t have been a valid option for some of those guys. The military is not a haven of last resort for people with no other choice. As others have pointed out, new recruits are actually above average, in terms of educational attainment and economic background, compared to their age group as a whole.
And I’m not going to argue what King said. I know what he said. Being a reader of his, and being from the same town, I watched the broadcast on C-SPAN last night, even suffering through his wife’s sleep-inducing talk.
After a decade plus of uniformed service, including a couple of tours in joint environments alongside the Army, I know that there are a handful of people who perceive that enlisting is their only choice, when in reality there are always options if you’re willing to apply yourself. Those people who feel like they had no choice are few and far between, and dimwits are even more of a rarity in today’s highly technical military. Illiterate dimwits are totally absent.
So, in short, I know what King said, and I disagree that the military is some kind of last resort. I also know what he implied. King, as a one-time English teacher, is surely an advocate of reading between the lines and divining the deeper meaning of the words written on the page or spoken by a lecturer. It’s quite obvious that he regards military service as an inferior choice, or else he wouldn’t use it as a scare tactic. “Read, or you’ll end up a lowly Army person!”
Once again, called on your stupid assumptions you issue reduce your opponents arguments to the absurd. No one has suggested King is a traitor. Just an idiot and a prick.
His comments:
So, if you can read, you can get any job you want. If you can’t, you’re a soldier. He said EXACTLY what I claimed. And since you have repeatedly slandered our troops as idiots and defended anyone who said as such, you’re just doing what you always do.
And you’re not intelligent enough to actually defend this position, so you keep linking to logical fallacies as if that makes your point. “Well, sure I’m wrong overall, but there are like, conditions, where I could be right. So you know, that makes me not really wrong.”
The individual justifications are:
“Well, they have nowhere else to go!”
Oh please. If they can’t get something as basic as a minimum wage job...they WILL NOT GET into the army. There are intelligence and proficiency tests that you have to pass to get in. While you obviously don’t have to be a genius, you have to have at least average intelligence. Maybe you genuinely believe that the people in the army can’t sign on at McDonalds, landscaping, or vice versa...but the rest of us are not under such delusions.
“Disproportionately, people use the military to further their education.”
This undermines your point. These people are using the army to FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION. If education is the determiner of intelligence, as you seem to be claiming, the army is clearly superior to other jobs, as it is the only job to actively seek to increase the intelligence of its employees.
“A->B does not mean B->A”
But you haven’t proved A->B yet. A GED is the educational equivalent of a high school diploma. You have to have the same range of knowledge as you do with the ACT, SAT, or some college intro tests.
“Some people see the military as a last resort.”
None of those people see the military as a last resort because of education. The military has long been a last resort for those in prison. “If the military can’t straighten you out, you go to jail forever” is not the same as “you are stupid, so go to the military.” And the military has a GREAT track record of turning these people around.
You’re simply not going to find anyone who suddenly wakes up one day and says “Well, crap, I have no choice but to be a soldier.” It. Just. Doesn’t. Happen.