I would argue that your mainstream media is rather more controlled than ours, for example.
How?
Also, I don´t think are economies are in the dumper. I simply don´t accept that.
If our economies were what yours are, we would say that it is in the dumper. Maybe you just have different standards. Things like consistent double digit unemployment are acceptable.
And fine, we pay a bit more for petrol, but we´re supposed to be getting out of our cars...
Says who?
We are certainly not socialists here in Western Europe...
Yes you are. Your Prime Minister Tony Blair is one. Jacques Chirac is another one. Gerhard Schröder is another one. You guys are spilling over with socialism.
...but in many countries we do lean towards free healthcare and schooling whenever possible.
Nothing is free in life. You pay for it.
Is is less free to have good free education and good public services?
If you think that your services are good (even though you are required to pay for them whether you want them or not, which by definition is less free), then “no”.
I am not claiming that we are the freest, I´m merely trying to point out that your assumption that you are the most free may not be true from all or even most points of view.
Never would claim all. But definitely most and as a whole.
I´m just pointing out that we are creating just as much terror and carnage to innocent people as, if not more than, we have suffered at the hands of the other side.
Which is a sad consequence of war. The difference between us and the people we are fighting is that we are not creating terror of innocent civilians simply for the sake of creating terror.
It´s not necessarily that I´m against the Iraq war, although I feel it has made the world a less safe place, and that we were lied to outrageously...
What lie?
...but it´s the assumption of moral rectitude that offends me.
Explain please.
However, the debate over the war on terror has been characterised by knee-jerk emotionalism, irrationalism and jingoistic bias, and in our re-embracing of torture we have shown ourselves capable of barbarism.
What “torture”?
Talking about past mistakes does not help, but I feel a little circumspection is in order, a little balance and humility.
If it doesn’t help, then why do you do it? Listen, you can navel gaze all you want. I will continue to advocate crushing the terrorists and the terrorist supporting regimes.
likwidshoe - 09:09am on 09/27/2005
Yes you are. Your Prime Minister Tony Blair is one. Jacques Chirac is another one. Gerhard Schröder is another one. You guys are spilling over with socialism.
And Kerry’s a communist and Bush is a fascist. Woo.
Orwell wrote:
The word fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable.” The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.
Dave - 05:09pm on 09/27/2005
And Kerry’s a communist and Bush is a fascist. Woo.
Dave, do you have a real point? Do you disagree that Tony Blair, Jacques Chirac, and Gerhard Schröder are socialists? They don’t.
likwidshoe - 09:09pm on 09/27/2005
I´m sorry this is such a piecemeal response.
Anyway… There is no way in the world that Blair is a socialist. He advocates a meritocratic, millionaire-creating society with a two-tiered health system. The gap between rich and poor has grown under Labour, a party that was socialist once, but which has slid rightwards to a central position.
Unemployment is not desirable, but it exists everywhere, which is why it helps to have a compassionate welfare state, and why countries like Germany do not have such a damaging gap between rich and poor. Welfare is a form of re-investment in the economy anyway - the money tends to be used for food etc.
We were lied to about the Iraq war. We were told that there were weapons which could be deployed in 45 minutes which could destroy Britain. It was all in a dossier which was infamously “sexed-up” to justify the war.
You said that getting public services “whether you want them or not” is less free. But the point is, most people just want good healthcare and they ought to get a good education, regardless of their parents´income. As with abortion, the financial frailties of your parents should not condemn you. The abstract concept of freedom does not justify deprivation. A child has little freedom to earn enough to send himself to the best schools. German friends tell me they were asked several times in the States whether Hitler was still in charge, I certainly begin to wonder how good state education is in the US!
What torture? Abu Ghraib, for example. Plus Guantanamo Bay. I call it torture to use sensory deprivation for long periods too. plus it was a serious discussion in the US about whether it was acceptable to use torture officially, not just “torture light”.
I take back what i said about past mistakes - it does help when it allows us to see present events with more clarity.
The knee-jerk emotionalism I am referring to can best be illustrated by something I heard on a joint US-UK radio broadcast a few weeks after 9/11. A British caller voiced his concern that the situation could escalate to the US-UK panel. The response from an American politician was: “ I find the idea that the situation could possibly escalate after this stunning”.
“We need to get out of our cars” because we´re running out of fossil fuels and because of climate change. The US administration is rightly criticised for not taking this latter issue more seriously. This is not a left/right issue. This is what nearly all our scientists are telling us, and we should have the “freedom” not to be living underwater!!
Thanks.
calm down, USA - 05:10am on 10/01/2005
Anyway… There is no way in the world that Blair is a socialist.
Well I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t or won’t recognize the socialists out there. It is true that he is not a 100% socialist as there are some things he has to recognize, namely that the benefits of a free market can’t be denied, but all in all the guy is a socialist. It is no wonder that you said, “There is no left wing in the States.” You can’t even recognize the left wing.
Unemployment is not desirable, but it exists everywhere, which is why it helps to have a compassionate welfare state, and why countries like Germany do not have such a damaging gap between rich and poor.
“A damaging gap between the rich and poor”? What does that even mean? And why does it matter? “The poor” is a baseline; it never moves up. “The rich”, however, can move up or down. So you have a baseline that never moves up and the upper tier that can move up or down. That tells me one thing: if you don’t have “a growing gap between the rich and the poor”, you don’t have a growing and healthy economy.
Maybe Germany’s “compassionate” (how can you be “compassionate” with other people’s money?) welfare state is a big part of the reason why Germany has had double digit unemployment for over a decade.
Welfare is a form of re-investment in the economy anyway - the money tends to be used for food etc.
That is one way of looking at it. Another way is that welfare is largely an economic black hole that creates a dependency class that creates no “re-investment” in the economy. They don’t even create an investment.
We were lied to about the Iraq war.
Prove it. And until you do that, I’d appreciate it if you stopped saying this.
We were told that there were weapons which could be deployed in 45 minutes which could destroy Britain.
Yeah. Most of the world believed it. And it still might have been largely true. We don’t know what was moved out of the country in the 14 month “rush to war”. We never did find out what was in those lines of semi-trucks moving into Syria. So I guess the entire world’s intelligence agencies were “lying” now?
It was all in a dossier which was infamously “sexed-up” to justify the war.
Please tell me that you’re not talking about this. That would be sad.
You said that getting public services “whether you want them or not” is less free. But the point is, most people just want good healthcare and they ought to get a good education, regardless of their parents´income.
The thing is: I don’t want a more expensive system and I don’t want my health care doled controlled by the government. Think about it: you’re going on about how you don’t trust the government and yet you want them to control your health care? That doesn’t seem too smart. Plus I don’t want to pay for you. No offense.
As with abortion, the financial frailties of your parents should not condemn you.
“As with abortion”? What do you mean here?
German friends tell me they were asked several times in the States whether Hitler was still in charge, I certainly begin to wonder how good state education is in the US!
And I’m certainly beginning to wonder how well you can recognize sarcasm and derision.
What torture? Abu Ghraib, for example. Plus Guantanamo Bay.
Abu Ghraib “torture” was punished. We don’t condone underwear on heads and naked pyramids. Lyndie England was sentenced to three years in prison. Guatanamo Bay “torture” requires a new definition of “torture”.
I call it torture to use sensory deprivation for long periods too.
I could care less. These are terrorists captured on the battlefields. Keep them awake. They would cut our heads off. No sympathy from me.
“We need to get out of our cars” because we´re running out of fossil fuels and because of climate change.
The US administration is rightly criticised for not taking this latter issue more seriously. This is not a left/right issue. This is what nearly all our scientists are telling us, and we should have the “freedom” not to be living underwater!!
Wow. Think you could step up the fear mongering and empty rhetoric? Calm down dude.
likwidshoe - 09:10am on 10/01/2005
I just got some bad news: my girlfriend is slightly pregnant.
Doesn’t work that way Dave. Your analogy fails. There is almost never a 100% socialist, communist, etc. What is next? Are you going to point to a free market project of Stalin’s and then claim that he was not a communist?
likwidshoe - 10:10am on 10/01/2005
It is true that he is not a 100% socialist as there are some things he has to recognize, namely that the benefits of a free market can’t be denied, but all in all the guy is a socialist.
I just got some bad news: my girlfriend is slightly pregnant.
Dave - 10:10am on 10/01/2005
I just got some bad news: my girlfriend is slightly pregnant.
Well, it’s a darn good thing you don’t have a problem with ending the life you’ve created!
In fact… you should look at this as GOOD news because:
1) you now have the opportunity to exercises your “Right” to kill a defenseless human life;
2) you know that if you ever want to have children, you’re capable.
3) You now have the ability to say, “See! It’s not that hard of a decision!”
Seth Yantiss - 12:10pm on 10/01/2005
Welfare is not an investment
J. K. Rowling
Unemployed and living on state benefits, she completed her first novel,
WOOF - 01:10pm on 10/01/2005
Welfare is not an investment in any meaning of the word. It is redistribution from the achievers to the non-achievers.
I would argue that your mainstream media is rather more controlled than ours, for example.
How?
Also, I don´t think are economies are in the dumper. I simply don´t accept that.
If our economies were what yours are, we would say that it is in the dumper. Maybe you just have different standards. Things like consistent double digit unemployment are acceptable.
And fine, we pay a bit more for petrol, but we´re supposed to be getting out of our cars...
Says who?
We are certainly not socialists here in Western Europe...
Yes you are. Your Prime Minister Tony Blair is one. Jacques Chirac is another one. Gerhard Schröder is another one. You guys are spilling over with socialism.
...but in many countries we do lean towards free healthcare and schooling whenever possible.
Nothing is free in life. You pay for it.
Is is less free to have good free education and good public services?
If you think that your services are good (even though you are required to pay for them whether you want them or not, which by definition is less free), then “no”.
I am not claiming that we are the freest, I´m merely trying to point out that your assumption that you are the most free may not be true from all or even most points of view.
Never would claim all. But definitely most and as a whole.
I´m just pointing out that we are creating just as much terror and carnage to innocent people as, if not more than, we have suffered at the hands of the other side.
Which is a sad consequence of war. The difference between us and the people we are fighting is that we are not creating terror of innocent civilians simply for the sake of creating terror.
It´s not necessarily that I´m against the Iraq war, although I feel it has made the world a less safe place, and that we were lied to outrageously...
What lie?
...but it´s the assumption of moral rectitude that offends me.
Explain please.
However, the debate over the war on terror has been characterised by knee-jerk emotionalism, irrationalism and jingoistic bias, and in our re-embracing of torture we have shown ourselves capable of barbarism.
What “torture”?
Talking about past mistakes does not help, but I feel a little circumspection is in order, a little balance and humility.
If it doesn’t help, then why do you do it? Listen, you can navel gaze all you want. I will continue to advocate crushing the terrorists and the terrorist supporting regimes.
And Kerry’s a communist and Bush is a fascist. Woo.
Orwell wrote:
And Kerry’s a communist and Bush is a fascist. Woo.
Dave, do you have a real point? Do you disagree that Tony Blair, Jacques Chirac, and Gerhard Schröder are socialists? They don’t.
I´m sorry this is such a piecemeal response.
Anyway… There is no way in the world that Blair is a socialist. He advocates a meritocratic, millionaire-creating society with a two-tiered health system. The gap between rich and poor has grown under Labour, a party that was socialist once, but which has slid rightwards to a central position.
Unemployment is not desirable, but it exists everywhere, which is why it helps to have a compassionate welfare state, and why countries like Germany do not have such a damaging gap between rich and poor. Welfare is a form of re-investment in the economy anyway - the money tends to be used for food etc.
We were lied to about the Iraq war. We were told that there were weapons which could be deployed in 45 minutes which could destroy Britain. It was all in a dossier which was infamously “sexed-up” to justify the war.
You said that getting public services “whether you want them or not” is less free. But the point is, most people just want good healthcare and they ought to get a good education, regardless of their parents´income. As with abortion, the financial frailties of your parents should not condemn you. The abstract concept of freedom does not justify deprivation. A child has little freedom to earn enough to send himself to the best schools. German friends tell me they were asked several times in the States whether Hitler was still in charge, I certainly begin to wonder how good state education is in the US!
What torture? Abu Ghraib, for example. Plus Guantanamo Bay. I call it torture to use sensory deprivation for long periods too. plus it was a serious discussion in the US about whether it was acceptable to use torture officially, not just “torture light”.
I take back what i said about past mistakes - it does help when it allows us to see present events with more clarity.
The knee-jerk emotionalism I am referring to can best be illustrated by something I heard on a joint US-UK radio broadcast a few weeks after 9/11. A British caller voiced his concern that the situation could escalate to the US-UK panel. The response from an American politician was: “ I find the idea that the situation could possibly escalate after this stunning”.
“We need to get out of our cars” because we´re running out of fossil fuels and because of climate change. The US administration is rightly criticised for not taking this latter issue more seriously. This is not a left/right issue. This is what nearly all our scientists are telling us, and we should have the “freedom” not to be living underwater!!
Thanks.
Anyway… There is no way in the world that Blair is a socialist.
Well I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t or won’t recognize the socialists out there. It is true that he is not a 100% socialist as there are some things he has to recognize, namely that the benefits of a free market can’t be denied, but all in all the guy is a socialist. It is no wonder that you said, “There is no left wing in the States.” You can’t even recognize the left wing.
Unemployment is not desirable, but it exists everywhere, which is why it helps to have a compassionate welfare state, and why countries like Germany do not have such a damaging gap between rich and poor.
“A damaging gap between the rich and poor”? What does that even mean? And why does it matter? “The poor” is a baseline; it never moves up. “The rich”, however, can move up or down. So you have a baseline that never moves up and the upper tier that can move up or down. That tells me one thing: if you don’t have “a growing gap between the rich and the poor”, you don’t have a growing and healthy economy.
Maybe Germany’s “compassionate” (how can you be “compassionate” with other people’s money?) welfare state is a big part of the reason why Germany has had double digit unemployment for over a decade.
Welfare is a form of re-investment in the economy anyway - the money tends to be used for food etc.
That is one way of looking at it. Another way is that welfare is largely an economic black hole that creates a dependency class that creates no “re-investment” in the economy. They don’t even create an investment.
We were lied to about the Iraq war.
Prove it. And until you do that, I’d appreciate it if you stopped saying this.
We were told that there were weapons which could be deployed in 45 minutes which could destroy Britain.
Yeah. Most of the world believed it. And it still might have been largely true. We don’t know what was moved out of the country in the 14 month “rush to war”. We never did find out what was in those lines of semi-trucks moving into Syria. So I guess the entire world’s intelligence agencies were “lying” now?
It was all in a dossier which was infamously “sexed-up” to justify the war.
Please tell me that you’re not talking about this. That would be sad.
You said that getting public services “whether you want them or not” is less free. But the point is, most people just want good healthcare and they ought to get a good education, regardless of their parents´income.
The thing is: I don’t want a more expensive system and I don’t want my health care doled controlled by the government. Think about it: you’re going on about how you don’t trust the government and yet you want them to control your health care? That doesn’t seem too smart. Plus I don’t want to pay for you. No offense.
As with abortion, the financial frailties of your parents should not condemn you.
“As with abortion”? What do you mean here?
German friends tell me they were asked several times in the States whether Hitler was still in charge, I certainly begin to wonder how good state education is in the US!
And I’m certainly beginning to wonder how well you can recognize sarcasm and derision.
What torture? Abu Ghraib, for example. Plus Guantanamo Bay.
Abu Ghraib “torture” was punished. We don’t condone underwear on heads and naked pyramids. Lyndie England was sentenced to three years in prison. Guatanamo Bay “torture” requires a new definition of “torture”.
I call it torture to use sensory deprivation for long periods too.
I could care less. These are terrorists captured on the battlefields. Keep them awake. They would cut our heads off. No sympathy from me.
“We need to get out of our cars” because we´re running out of fossil fuels and because of climate change.
“We’re running out of fossil fuels”?
The US administration is rightly criticised for not taking this latter issue more seriously. This is not a left/right issue. This is what nearly all our scientists are telling us, and we should have the “freedom” not to be living underwater!!
Wow. Think you could step up the fear mongering and empty rhetoric? Calm down dude.
I just got some bad news: my girlfriend is slightly pregnant.
Doesn’t work that way Dave. Your analogy fails. There is almost never a 100% socialist, communist, etc. What is next? Are you going to point to a free market project of Stalin’s and then claim that he was not a communist?
I just got some bad news: my girlfriend is slightly pregnant.
Well, it’s a darn good thing you don’t have a problem with ending the life you’ve created!
In fact… you should look at this as GOOD news because:
1) you now have the opportunity to exercises your “Right” to kill a defenseless human life;
2) you know that if you ever want to have children, you’re capable.
3) You now have the ability to say, “See! It’s not that hard of a decision!”
J. K. Rowling
Welfare is not an investment in any meaning of the word. It is redistribution from the achievers to the non-achievers.