I am planning on voting for McCain because he isn’t Barack or Hillary. If he names the Huckster, then screw it, I’ll do a right in for Romney. I will NEVER EVER support any ticket with Huckbee’s name on it.
I agree with you P2P. Huckabee is not even close to a ficsl coservative. Huckabee tries to come off as a nice guy but wasn’t it his campaign advisor who said he would like to kick Romney’s teeth out?
There is one person McLame can bring to the ticket who would actually help his chances: Gov. Bobby Jinday of Louisiana.
Although I would love to see Bobby Jindal run or get picked for the VP spot, he has all but said he wouldn’t accept the offer. He wants to use the unique oppotunity right now to help clean up Louisiana. He should clean up that state for the next few years and then try a presidental run in 2012 after he gets some more experience under his belt.
dougee - 10:05am on 05/13/2008
Pal2Pal, you’re starting with the assumption that orthodox Christianity--the one that accepts the Bible as agreed upon at the Council of Nicea--is not orthodox Christianity.
No, I’m starting from the premise that the original Christians/Christian church were all Jews. It wasn’t until Paul that the argument began as to whether you could be a Christian without first converting to Judaism and be circumcised if male. Peter, a Jew, presided over the “church” in Jerusalem, Paul, also a Jew, took his message on the road to the Gentiles. It wasn’t until 300 years later that the Bible was codified into what we know today and that was a bunch of old men deciding what you should and should not have access to. From that point until the invention of the printing press, Christians (Catholics), the only kind there were, were told what was God’s will and Christ’s words by their Pope, Cardinals and Priests. When the “people” could finally read for themselves in their own language and not Latin, the Protestant reformation began, which took many different forms as leaders rose to replace the Catholic doctrine with their own interpretations. Calvin, Luther, Fox, Williams, Smith, you name it.
Pal2Pal - 01:05pm on 05/13/2008
In that case, what you are arguing is that the disciple of Gemaliel didn’t know squat about Yiddishkeit, despite the fact that Gemaliel is one of the premier commentators on Torah. You claim, more or less, an absurdity. The church fathers very early accepted Paul’s writings as canonical, and Paul’s apostleship as genuine. To argue against Paul is to argue against orthodox Christianity.
Bike Bubba - 01:05pm on 05/13/2008
Pal2Pal, you’re starting with the assumption that orthodox Christianity--the one that accepts the Bible as agreed upon at the Council of Nicea--is not orthodox Christianity.
Christianity is not about man-made religious organisms, it is those people that have accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord and have become in Spirit the Body of Christ. Unfortunately, every Christian to varying degrees is walking around in their old sin-condemned flesh and when they give into the desires and thoughts of the flesh, versus perfect obedience to Christ in all things, they construct a liturgy, rituals, priestly class and all sorts of things not reflective of God’s Will. Huckabee, for good or ill, even as a Christian is just a man with plenty of faults, he is neither a saint nor the devil.
I think Huckabee would be exactly the wrong choice for a host of reasons and would insure a McCain defeat in the General Election. McCain’s VP cannot be white; he/she must have conservative credentials; must embrace conservative, evangelical social-moral values; must be able to play attack dog while not alientating independent minded voters with extremist views; and he/she must be better than average at conveying the ideals/goals of the McCain Campaign (whatever that is, which I don’t think even McCain knows).
Oh, my advice for McCain:
Construct an easy to understand, easy to express, national vision for the future with no more than 7 ways/programs to achieve that vision.
Neiman - 01:05pm on 05/13/2008
I’m not arguing against Paul or any other religious leader. I’m saying that as a personal matter, I refuse to limit God/Christ to the small minds of men, most of whom have/had their own agendas. I believe God reveals to each of us what we are ready to receive and understand. I do not believe that I need a pastor, preacher, reverend, priest or politician to tell me about God (or Christ).
I do not believe that praying to a statue or hanging a cross around my neck on a chain advances that intimate knowledge of God. There are mainstream religions who preach that music and dancing are going to send you to hell, yet in Psalms we are told to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord.” And how many religions are there that do not understand that Communion is just an abbreviated version of the Jewish Passover ritual as practiced by Jesus all his life and at the Last Supper. You must understand the God of the Old Testament if you want to have even a chance of understanding the teachings of Jesus. He was a devout Jew and everything he taught was already there and those he preached to were well versed in those teachings and understood his meanings. Can’t say that is true today with most churches.
Pal2Pal - 01:05pm on 05/13/2008
Pay2Pal: You were doing fairly well until you got here:
how many religions are there that do not understand that Communion is just an abbreviated version of the Jewish Passover ritual as practiced by Jesus all his life and at the Last Supper. You must understand the God of the Old Testament if you want to have even a chance of understanding the teachings of Jesus. He was a devout Jew and everything he taught was already there and those he preached to were well versed in those teachings and understood his meanings
Jesus taught Communion, as a remembrance of His broken body and shed blood for the remission of sin. The Passover was but a shadow of the reality found in and through Christ.
Indeed eveything Jesus taught was from the Word as presented in the Old Covenant, because only until His death and Resurrection could that Old Testament (Contract between God and man) be set aside in favor of the New Covenant (contract) of Grace. We should be careful not to mix in the Old Testament without being deeply concerned about how people are quickly and easily brought back under the Law which leads to death and away from pure Grace which only leads to life eternal.
While the Old Covenant of the Law was perfect and it and the many teachings of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament can be spiritually beneficial, we are no longer under the Law and we should never desire to live under that Law.
Neiman - 05:05pm on 05/13/2008
The Passover is what Jesus was celebrating at the time he said what he said. Breaking of bread, drinking of the wine. Have you attended a Passover dinner? It is basically a prophesy of the Messiah. Jesus was telling his disciples that the prophecy is fulfilled through him. A very radical statement, when you think about it, and quite shocking to those who heard it. He was expanding on the lesson, not inventing a new lesson. That is my point.
Well my original point is more that neither God, nor Christ as God in the flesh, should be limited by the mind of man or the rules of man as I was relating organized religions of any faith.
Pal2Pal - 05:05pm on 05/13/2008
There are basically two paths to salvation. One, absolute strict adherence to The Law, including blood sacrifice, and two, through Grace and the death and resurrection of Christ as a substitute for all of us as the blood sacrifice. Adhering to The Law is virtually impossible. Grace is simple. Say “I believe” and you’re in, according to many. Some add that “faith without works” is dead faith. Mormons believe everyone will have salvation, but your works and the state of your heart/spirit will determine the level of your salvation, i.e. Celestial, Telestial, etc. Catholics, if I understand it correctly, believe you spend some time in Purgatory and, again if I understand correctly, the number of candles paid for and lit on your behalf after your death can move you along.
Will God ignore or refuse those who have never heard the Gospel? I do not believe that can possibly be true. I could not believe in a God like that. I don’t think God cares if I go to some building once a week and listen to someone exhort me to pray and be good or tell me what God/Christ means. I have felt the presence of the Spirit, however, standing on a mountain top and in a sunlit clearing of a Redwood grove while I was all alone.
But, that’s just me, I don’t presume to tell others what to believe or how to believe, even when I think their beliefs are out in left field. None of us are equipped to judge the faith of another’s heart.
Pal2Pal - 06:05pm on 05/13/2008
You can always tell who the Romney supporters are. They are crass and insulting, and have no reasoning ability. They write like spoiled brats who need to be spanked.
And John McCain is about to spank them by naming Mike Huckabee as VP. It will be a winning move.
David Anderson - 08:05pm on 05/13/2008
Will God ignore or refuse those who have never heard the Gospel?
Well, if you are a Christian and you accept the Bible as God’s inerrant Word, then only by Grace, through faith in Christ alone, will anyone be saved. If you reject that, then you reject God’s only plan for Salvation.
God sent His Son to pay the full penalty for every sin, ever committed by every human being that would ever live. No one needs to be lost and go into eternal punishing for their sin, they have all been paid for. God says here is the gift of Salvation, will you blame Him for those that reject His Free Gift?
A man in prison, facing the death penatly for murder was pardoned by the Governor; that is, treated as if he never committed the crime. The man, due to guilt, refused to be released and demanded the death penalty be carried out. The Warden and the Governor appealed to the Supreme Court in their state to guide them in what to do, a Justice said, “A pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted!” The man was executed! In a similar manner God Himself paid for our sins and His justice being satisfied, offered a free pardon to every human being; but, a pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted and everyone failing to gain Heaven will fail to go there by their own free will choice to reject God’s Pardon.
Who are you to tell God what He must do to meet your approval? When did God give you authority over Him? Will God ever do wrong, is He capable of doing wrong? If the answer is God cannot do wrong, we are left to trust Him to deal with those that have never heard the Gospel, with the full knowledge that on Judgment Day we will all say Amen, even those consigned to eternal suffering will have no complaint against God, they will absolutely know they deserve their punishment.
As to the nonsense about going to a building each week. First, that reveals a hatred of organized religion on your part, not all of which is unjustified. We are called to not forsake gathering together with other believers, even if just at home within a small group of believers, for communal worship and to have other believers to share our burden and to be used of God to meet our needs.
I agree with you P2P. Huckabee is not even close to a ficsl coservative. Huckabee tries to come off as a nice guy but wasn’t it his campaign advisor who said he would like to kick Romney’s teeth out?
Although I would love to see Bobby Jindal run or get picked for the VP spot, he has all but said he wouldn’t accept the offer. He wants to use the unique oppotunity right now to help clean up Louisiana. He should clean up that state for the next few years and then try a presidental run in 2012 after he gets some more experience under his belt.
No, I’m starting from the premise that the original Christians/Christian church were all Jews. It wasn’t until Paul that the argument began as to whether you could be a Christian without first converting to Judaism and be circumcised if male. Peter, a Jew, presided over the “church” in Jerusalem, Paul, also a Jew, took his message on the road to the Gentiles. It wasn’t until 300 years later that the Bible was codified into what we know today and that was a bunch of old men deciding what you should and should not have access to. From that point until the invention of the printing press, Christians (Catholics), the only kind there were, were told what was God’s will and Christ’s words by their Pope, Cardinals and Priests. When the “people” could finally read for themselves in their own language and not Latin, the Protestant reformation began, which took many different forms as leaders rose to replace the Catholic doctrine with their own interpretations. Calvin, Luther, Fox, Williams, Smith, you name it.
In that case, what you are arguing is that the disciple of Gemaliel didn’t know squat about Yiddishkeit, despite the fact that Gemaliel is one of the premier commentators on Torah. You claim, more or less, an absurdity. The church fathers very early accepted Paul’s writings as canonical, and Paul’s apostleship as genuine. To argue against Paul is to argue against orthodox Christianity.
Christianity is not about man-made religious organisms, it is those people that have accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord and have become in Spirit the Body of Christ. Unfortunately, every Christian to varying degrees is walking around in their old sin-condemned flesh and when they give into the desires and thoughts of the flesh, versus perfect obedience to Christ in all things, they construct a liturgy, rituals, priestly class and all sorts of things not reflective of God’s Will. Huckabee, for good or ill, even as a Christian is just a man with plenty of faults, he is neither a saint nor the devil.
I think Huckabee would be exactly the wrong choice for a host of reasons and would insure a McCain defeat in the General Election. McCain’s VP cannot be white; he/she must have conservative credentials; must embrace conservative, evangelical social-moral values; must be able to play attack dog while not alientating independent minded voters with extremist views; and he/she must be better than average at conveying the ideals/goals of the McCain Campaign (whatever that is, which I don’t think even McCain knows).
Oh, my advice for McCain:
Construct an easy to understand, easy to express, national vision for the future with no more than 7 ways/programs to achieve that vision.
I’m not arguing against Paul or any other religious leader. I’m saying that as a personal matter, I refuse to limit God/Christ to the small minds of men, most of whom have/had their own agendas. I believe God reveals to each of us what we are ready to receive and understand. I do not believe that I need a pastor, preacher, reverend, priest or politician to tell me about God (or Christ).
I do not believe that praying to a statue or hanging a cross around my neck on a chain advances that intimate knowledge of God. There are mainstream religions who preach that music and dancing are going to send you to hell, yet in Psalms we are told to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord.” And how many religions are there that do not understand that Communion is just an abbreviated version of the Jewish Passover ritual as practiced by Jesus all his life and at the Last Supper. You must understand the God of the Old Testament if you want to have even a chance of understanding the teachings of Jesus. He was a devout Jew and everything he taught was already there and those he preached to were well versed in those teachings and understood his meanings. Can’t say that is true today with most churches.
Pay2Pal: You were doing fairly well until you got here:
Jesus taught Communion, as a remembrance of His broken body and shed blood for the remission of sin. The Passover was but a shadow of the reality found in and through Christ.
Indeed eveything Jesus taught was from the Word as presented in the Old Covenant, because only until His death and Resurrection could that Old Testament (Contract between God and man) be set aside in favor of the New Covenant (contract) of Grace. We should be careful not to mix in the Old Testament without being deeply concerned about how people are quickly and easily brought back under the Law which leads to death and away from pure Grace which only leads to life eternal.
While the Old Covenant of the Law was perfect and it and the many teachings of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament can be spiritually beneficial, we are no longer under the Law and we should never desire to live under that Law.
The Passover is what Jesus was celebrating at the time he said what he said. Breaking of bread, drinking of the wine. Have you attended a Passover dinner? It is basically a prophesy of the Messiah. Jesus was telling his disciples that the prophecy is fulfilled through him. A very radical statement, when you think about it, and quite shocking to those who heard it. He was expanding on the lesson, not inventing a new lesson. That is my point.
Well my original point is more that neither God, nor Christ as God in the flesh, should be limited by the mind of man or the rules of man as I was relating organized religions of any faith.
There are basically two paths to salvation. One, absolute strict adherence to The Law, including blood sacrifice, and two, through Grace and the death and resurrection of Christ as a substitute for all of us as the blood sacrifice. Adhering to The Law is virtually impossible. Grace is simple. Say “I believe” and you’re in, according to many. Some add that “faith without works” is dead faith. Mormons believe everyone will have salvation, but your works and the state of your heart/spirit will determine the level of your salvation, i.e. Celestial, Telestial, etc. Catholics, if I understand it correctly, believe you spend some time in Purgatory and, again if I understand correctly, the number of candles paid for and lit on your behalf after your death can move you along.
Will God ignore or refuse those who have never heard the Gospel? I do not believe that can possibly be true. I could not believe in a God like that. I don’t think God cares if I go to some building once a week and listen to someone exhort me to pray and be good or tell me what God/Christ means. I have felt the presence of the Spirit, however, standing on a mountain top and in a sunlit clearing of a Redwood grove while I was all alone.
But, that’s just me, I don’t presume to tell others what to believe or how to believe, even when I think their beliefs are out in left field. None of us are equipped to judge the faith of another’s heart.
You can always tell who the Romney supporters are. They are crass and insulting, and have no reasoning ability. They write like spoiled brats who need to be spanked.
And John McCain is about to spank them by naming Mike Huckabee as VP. It will be a winning move.
Well, if you are a Christian and you accept the Bible as God’s inerrant Word, then only by Grace, through faith in Christ alone, will anyone be saved. If you reject that, then you reject God’s only plan for Salvation.
God sent His Son to pay the full penalty for every sin, ever committed by every human being that would ever live. No one needs to be lost and go into eternal punishing for their sin, they have all been paid for. God says here is the gift of Salvation, will you blame Him for those that reject His Free Gift?
A man in prison, facing the death penatly for murder was pardoned by the Governor; that is, treated as if he never committed the crime. The man, due to guilt, refused to be released and demanded the death penalty be carried out. The Warden and the Governor appealed to the Supreme Court in their state to guide them in what to do, a Justice said, “A pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted!” The man was executed! In a similar manner God Himself paid for our sins and His justice being satisfied, offered a free pardon to every human being; but, a pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted and everyone failing to gain Heaven will fail to go there by their own free will choice to reject God’s Pardon.
Who are you to tell God what He must do to meet your approval? When did God give you authority over Him? Will God ever do wrong, is He capable of doing wrong? If the answer is God cannot do wrong, we are left to trust Him to deal with those that have never heard the Gospel, with the full knowledge that on Judgment Day we will all say Amen, even those consigned to eternal suffering will have no complaint against God, they will absolutely know they deserve their punishment.
As to the nonsense about going to a building each week. First, that reveals a hatred of organized religion on your part, not all of which is unjustified. We are called to not forsake gathering together with other believers, even if just at home within a small group of believers, for communal worship and to have other believers to share our burden and to be used of God to meet our needs.