I read somewhere that the pharmeceutical companies spend more marketing then they do on research. HSA will not help those at the bottom of spectrum of earnings and will only lead to cherry picking and less health care.
Love My ND - 07:02am on 02/19/2006
HSA will not help those at the bottom of spectrum of earnings and will only lead to cherry picking and less health care.
Health savings account will drive down the overall cost of health insurance. If that doesn’t help those at the bottom of the spectrum of earnings I don’t know what will.
We should be looking to empower individuals to care for themselves in this country, not looking for more ways to make them beholden to the government.
Rob - 08:02am on 02/19/2006
How will it drive down costs?
Love My ND - 08:02am on 02/19/2006
Because when citizens are responsible for paying their own medical bills they shop around. Rather than just going to whatever care provider is most convenient, since cost doesn’t matter when your insurance company is picking up the tab, citizens will actively search out deals and discounts.
Its called a "free market," and it works.
Rob - 08:02am on 02/19/2006
I read somewhere that the pharmeceutical companies spend more marketing then they do on research.
That’s likely true. On the other hand there are sound economic reasons for doinng so.
1. It creates a bigger market faster by letting those who need these products know that there is a better way. By expanding the market they are able to cover their Research and development among more people.
2. At the same time they are helping people faster. Not a bad thing.
If we restrict drug companies we’ll never know what miricle drugs they would have created.
The.Whistler - 08:02am on 02/19/2006
citizens will actively search out deals and discounts.
I know I’m always looking out for the cheaper doctor or hospital, when it comes to my health. NOT!
I’ve always believed in the old saying, from my salesman days (which I didn’t do for very long)
you can have it Good, Fast or Cheap, pick any two!
When you apply that to health care, which two choices do you think most people will pick?
Marc - 09:02am on 02/19/2006
How are consumers supposed to shop around when doctors and hospitals don’t posts their costs for their surgeries. There is no way for a consumer to check out which doctor is better than another doctor or which doctor charges less or which hosptial has a cheaper rate for this surgery or that surgery. We don’t even know which doctors or hospital have higher rates of medical errors. So you just can’t say that people will make better decisions if they can make choices. The information isn’t public yet we are pushing HSA.
One example that I can give is that the NDPERS, the system for state employees, where the employees receive health insurance through the state. I regualrly attended board meetings and their health data shows that 20% of the recipients use 80% of the health care and 80% use 20%. These are very good statistics and show that people are not misuing the health care system. The other 20% are those with chronic health problems.
So I remain confused as to how we "shop" around for health care.
Love My ND - 09:02am on 02/19/2006
Marc said, I know I’m always looking out for the cheaper doctor or hospital, when it comes to my health. NOT!
Well, that’s you Marc. Perhaps you can’t envision a free market health care system because you currently don’t have to. Now before you but in with the claim of, "health care is different, people need it", ask yourself what makes food different. People need food as well, and somehow the market works wonderfully in that area. We have low prices and abundance.
I’ve always believed in the old saying, from my salesman days (which I didn’t do for very long)
you can have it Good, Fast or Cheap, pick any two!
When you apply that to health care, which two choices do you think most people will pick?
Love my ND asks, How are consumers supposed to shop around when doctors and hospitals don’t posts their costs for their surgeries.
Why would doctors and hospitals post their costs today? They don’t have to because there is currently no free market, so it seems silly that they would. You think that would stay the same if we shopped around? They’d be advertising their prices.
likwidshoe - 10:02am on 02/19/2006
Again, how will be able to shop around for the best cost and quality? How will know what the incidental costs are for care, like the razors they use to shave our body hair before surgery? What about the tubing, syringes? That’s not even considering what happens in an emergency situation? There isn’t time shop around for a better deal. And in rural America, there is usually only one clinic in town and that refer to only one hospital because they are affiliated.
Again, are we putting the cart before the horse? How can we have a new system that is supposedly to help those at the lower end make better choices and there are no real choices to be made?
Still confused about all of this.
Love My ND - 11:02am on 02/19/2006
Well, likwidshoe, you could have picked a better example then food, but I’ll try and explain the difference between food, and other commodities, and health care.
Yes, competition in the production of such things as food, autos, computers helps keep prices low. But those are products that are produced on massive scales, in limited locations. All the costs go into the product upon manufacture. The only costs that are added on are the costs of delivery, and for storing and selling the product.
You want an apple you go to the store and buy an apple, the same for a car and a computer. Some items require assembly and you either do it yourself or you pay someone to do it.
Health care is hardly the same. First off it isn’t a product, it’s a service (so you might have been better off choosing income tax preparation as an example, and how competition keeps prices low for that), and you can’t do heart surgery or perform a colonoscopy on yourself.
Health care is not produced on a massive scale and then consumed by consumers. Most consumers don’t even know when they are going to need it. And the people providing the service, don’t know what problems to expect until they treat the patient. In other words the product isn’t produced until the consumer needs it, and there are no rules like in tax preparation. Each one of us unique, and each health care procedure is a custom job, and customizations is rarely cheap.
And as far as why there are only 2 choices, it’s because each choice has an impact on the other.
If someone wants a product faster then can be accomplished based on manufacturing constraints, i.e. time, labor, then the price will have to go up in order to have people work overtime, or hirer more people to expedite the production of the product. If you want something fast and cheap, than that can be accomplished, by simply skipping a few steps which would result in lower quality. It’s not a false dilemma, it’s just the practicality of the real world.
You want a cheap colonoscopy, done quickly, and are not concerned withthe doctor tearing a hole in your colon, well that’s your choice.
You’re right, I don’t have to worry about that, because my insurance pays for it, but I pay for my insurance. But even if I had to pay for it myself, I would still be more concerned with the quality of the physician than the cost.
I read somewhere that the pharmeceutical companies spend more marketing then they do on research. HSA will not help those at the bottom of spectrum of earnings and will only lead to cherry picking and less health care.
Health savings account will drive down the overall cost of health insurance. If that doesn’t help those at the bottom of the spectrum of earnings I don’t know what will.
We should be looking to empower individuals to care for themselves in this country, not looking for more ways to make them beholden to the government.
How will it drive down costs?
Because when citizens are responsible for paying their own medical bills they shop around. Rather than just going to whatever care provider is most convenient, since cost doesn’t matter when your insurance company is picking up the tab, citizens will actively search out deals and discounts.
Its called a "free market," and it works.
That’s likely true. On the other hand there are sound economic reasons for doinng so.
1. It creates a bigger market faster by letting those who need these products know that there is a better way. By expanding the market they are able to cover their Research and development among more people.
2. At the same time they are helping people faster. Not a bad thing.
If we restrict drug companies we’ll never know what miricle drugs they would have created.
I know I’m always looking out for the cheaper doctor or hospital, when it comes to my health. NOT!
I’ve always believed in the old saying, from my salesman days (which I didn’t do for very long)
When you apply that to health care, which two choices do you think most people will pick?
How are consumers supposed to shop around when doctors and hospitals don’t posts their costs for their surgeries. There is no way for a consumer to check out which doctor is better than another doctor or which doctor charges less or which hosptial has a cheaper rate for this surgery or that surgery. We don’t even know which doctors or hospital have higher rates of medical errors. So you just can’t say that people will make better decisions if they can make choices. The information isn’t public yet we are pushing HSA.
One example that I can give is that the NDPERS, the system for state employees, where the employees receive health insurance through the state. I regualrly attended board meetings and their health data shows that 20% of the recipients use 80% of the health care and 80% use 20%. These are very good statistics and show that people are not misuing the health care system. The other 20% are those with chronic health problems.
So I remain confused as to how we "shop" around for health care.
Marc said, I know I’m always looking out for the cheaper doctor or hospital, when it comes to my health. NOT!
Well, that’s you Marc. Perhaps you can’t envision a free market health care system because you currently don’t have to. Now before you but in with the claim of, "health care is different, people need it", ask yourself what makes food different. People need food as well, and somehow the market works wonderfully in that area. We have low prices and abundance.
I’ve always believed in the old saying, from my salesman days (which I didn’t do for very long)
When you apply that to health care, which two choices do you think most people will pick?
Why is there only two choices? False dilemma.
Love my ND asks, How are consumers supposed to shop around when doctors and hospitals don’t posts their costs for their surgeries.
Why would doctors and hospitals post their costs today? They don’t have to because there is currently no free market, so it seems silly that they would. You think that would stay the same if we shopped around? They’d be advertising their prices.
Again, how will be able to shop around for the best cost and quality? How will know what the incidental costs are for care, like the razors they use to shave our body hair before surgery? What about the tubing, syringes? That’s not even considering what happens in an emergency situation? There isn’t time shop around for a better deal. And in rural America, there is usually only one clinic in town and that refer to only one hospital because they are affiliated.
Again, are we putting the cart before the horse? How can we have a new system that is supposedly to help those at the lower end make better choices and there are no real choices to be made?
Still confused about all of this.
Well, likwidshoe, you could have picked a better example then food, but I’ll try and explain the difference between food, and other commodities, and health care.
Yes, competition in the production of such things as food, autos, computers helps keep prices low. But those are products that are produced on massive scales, in limited locations. All the costs go into the product upon manufacture. The only costs that are added on are the costs of delivery, and for storing and selling the product.
You want an apple you go to the store and buy an apple, the same for a car and a computer. Some items require assembly and you either do it yourself or you pay someone to do it.
Health care is hardly the same. First off it isn’t a product, it’s a service (so you might have been better off choosing income tax preparation as an example, and how competition keeps prices low for that), and you can’t do heart surgery or perform a colonoscopy on yourself.
Health care is not produced on a massive scale and then consumed by consumers. Most consumers don’t even know when they are going to need it. And the people providing the service, don’t know what problems to expect until they treat the patient. In other words the product isn’t produced until the consumer needs it, and there are no rules like in tax preparation. Each one of us unique, and each health care procedure is a custom job, and customizations is rarely cheap.
And as far as why there are only 2 choices, it’s because each choice has an impact on the other.
If someone wants a product faster then can be accomplished based on manufacturing constraints, i.e. time, labor, then the price will have to go up in order to have people work overtime, or hirer more people to expedite the production of the product. If you want something fast and cheap, than that can be accomplished, by simply skipping a few steps which would result in lower quality. It’s not a false dilemma, it’s just the practicality of the real world.
You want a cheap colonoscopy, done quickly, and are not concerned withthe doctor tearing a hole in your colon, well that’s your choice.
You’re right, I don’t have to worry about that, because my insurance pays for it, but I pay for my insurance. But even if I had to pay for it myself, I would still be more concerned with the quality of the physician than the cost.