But SUV’s are a more politically convenient target than cows, so I guess McCain will ignore that bit of inconvenient truth.
Great point Rob. I think McCain should really put together a plan to rid cows of their flatulence. I think that would be tax dollars well spent.
Thanks for keeping our eye on the ball. I think Proof should raise this issue at the next town hall meeting on your behalf.
Hannitized - 09:05am on 05/12/2008
McCain would saddle us with new taxes and regulations that would burden our lives with no guarantees that those taxes and regulations would succeed in their objectives. Or any evidence which would suggest that those objectives need to be met in the first place.
McCain isn’t a stupid man. He has to know about these questions, yet he’s pushing ahead anyway. Which means that he’s just getting behind the issue as a way to get himself into office or he’s using it as an excuse for a government power grab.
Or, McCain is smart enough to realize that it really doesn’t hurt us to move away from fossil fuels and our dependancy on the Mid East tyrants who make a lot of their profit from us and others because of those same fuels.
Perhaps McCain figured out that if we could lead through example, like some of our foreign neighbors, that maybe the world would be less dependent on the ME, Central America for fuel and possibly he thinks the climate might benefit as well?
He merely used the word “implicated” after all. It’s not like he said it was the only reason, nor did he say it was the primary reason, he simply said this is something that has been.....implicated...and, well, we certainly know words have meanings. Bat told me so.
Hannitized - 10:05am on 05/12/2008
Just a tidbit:
The #1 largest global warming gas is water vapor. However, I’m thinking that we should leave that one alone. Methane is more energy (heat) retaining that CO2, so Rob is right, however it is in lower abundance.
H2O is responsable for about 36% of Greenhouse effect heat and CO2 account for 9% of the greenhouse effect. These numbers we gained via chroatographic cross section at one ATM in typical air gas proportions, including N, He, Ar and O3.
Now, if you change the percentages of gas, you change the numbers in terms of energy retention. (pv=nrt) However, what is overlooked is the high degree of CO2 and methane, in solution, in the oceans. Removal of CO2 or methane may not trigger a favorable climatic change due to gas solution release from the oceans as ATM pressure changes.
It’s believed that the CO2 release, from solution, from the oceans during the Permian may have caused that extinction event. However, it is worth noting that the earth was still very young in having an oxygen bearing atmosphere so the heating and cooling effects would be much more drastic.
That being said, If McCain’s plan allows for an increase in usage in renewable energy without handicapping market mechinisms, I’m all for it. I honestly doubt it will effect the global temperature, but anything that provides for more energy independence and the usage of hydrocarbon as trasnportation fuel only, instead of electric generation, is a step in the right direction.
Additionally, US efforts to encourage better alignment with Canada and Mexico for oil imports would be nice. i find it sad that we import more oil from an American hating Hugo Chavez than we do from Mexico. Convincing Mexico to allow US investment and exploration in thier country could help jump start their economy, create mexican jobs, reduce oil and gas transportation cost, decrease the US focus on Middle eastern policy and help with illegal immigration while providing the oil we use.
The same can be said of encoraging the production of Canadian resources, which welcome outside investment. At these prices, the Canadain oil sands look pretty good and Canada is aligned with US interests more often than not.
No, it can’t replace OPEC but I’d rather transfer US wealth to Mexico or Canada in our oil importing than Saudi Arabia.
Rob B. - 11:05am on 05/12/2008
First of all comparing glaciers that probably only formed during the little ice age is a pretty crappy way to “prove” global warming. Where were those glaciers before the little ice age.
I also have to disagree with the other Rob. If McCain gave a damn about energy independence he wouldn’t have done what he did to develop ANWR.
He’s pandering to whack jobs that aren’t going to support him. You said that maybe McCain was “smart enough.” I don’t have an opinion of his intelligence, but I do have an opinion of his arrogance. He is arrogant enough to screw over the people of this country rather than admit he’s wrong.
The Whistler - 12:05pm on 05/12/2008
This is a long comment, for which I wish to apologize. The problem is, Mr. Barr’s website isn’t quite up-to-date when it comes to the intertubes.
I received the following press release on Wednesday, but there is no link available on his website. So, skip past this comment if you want to avoid his press release.
The reason for this comment is, when I received this press release, I kinda shrugged and muttered “dumb”. Then Senator McCain announces that he has taken the Man Made Global Warming kool-aid, and pronounced it “good”.
He was never my first choice. Not even my second. But, thanks to Florida, here we are. He admits he’s no economist. Now he admits he’s no rocket scientist. Yes, he has suffered. Yes, he’s been in D.C. too long. No, I don’t want to vote for Mr. Barr, but, you should at least hear what he has to say, now that Senator McCain has left the building.
So, I end this comment at this point. To see the communication from Mr. Barr, I’ve posted it here, to save poor SayAnything from my excess.
There’s a curious irony about Bob Barr. He was the first congressman to call for the impeachment of Bill Clinton, true enough.
But before he was a congressman, he was one of the US Attorneys who were all summarily fired by incoming President Bill Clinton! Had Clinton not fired all those US Attorneys, an acto for which he certainly had the necessary constitutional authority, he might very well never have been impeached, and Monica Lewinski’s DNA splattered dress would never have made to the headlines and the evening news.
Of course, Bob Barr, an honorable but somewhat kookie Liberatarian, has also called for the impeachment of George W. Bush. But Mr. Bush will be long out of office before anyone of importance takes that call seriously.
Barr’s Liberarian candidacy is likely to attract at least as many disaffected Demcorats as it will Republicans.
Bat One - 01:05pm on 05/12/2008
Actually, it’s worth noting that carbon-dioxide is not the worst greenhouse gas. Methane emitted through livestock flatulence and defecation is actually 20 times worse than carbon dioxide.
Maybe pound-per-pound, methane is a more potent greenhouse gas, but CO2 is still a larger effect in the atmosphere due to its greater abundance. Pretty much the same point that Rob B made.
Whistler, the fact that we have had 150 years of deglaciation is proof of global warming, just not man-made.
Also, if as H. pointed out, “implicated” means “a cause” not “the only cause”, then McCain and I pretty much agree on this too.
I know you guys hate McCain outright, so I wouldn’t expect a fair trial here in any case.
Carrick - 04:05pm on 05/12/2008
Whistler, the fact that we have had 150 years of deglaciation is proof of global warming, just not man-made.
I realize that, and I am often (usually) unclear on the fact that YES we are warming but the man-caused portion of that is not the largest driver of that.
However since McCain is “fixing” the problem of global warming by trying to coerce people to change their behavior it should be pretty clear that I oppose his stance that it’s man made (and only man made).
I fail to see how we’d halt a natural warming cycle (nor how we could nip this little cooling thing we’re in RIGHT NOW in the bud.)
The Whistler - 04:05pm on 05/12/2008
I know you guys hate McCain outright,
I think he’s dangerously wrong on illegal immigration as well as his global warming stuff.
He’s been wrong on Campaign finance reform and some other things, but that’s water over the bridge.
Hate?
The Whistler - 04:05pm on 05/12/2008
Whistler: hate?
Pretty close. To say you don’t play him down the middle is a bit like saying that gasoline isn’t entirely noncombustible.
However, I happen to think that he has pretty much shot himself in the foot on this one by the way. Cap and trade on this scale doesn’t work. Europe has pretty much proven that.
Great point Rob. I think McCain should really put together a plan to rid cows of their flatulence. I think that would be tax dollars well spent.
Thanks for keeping our eye on the ball. I think Proof should raise this issue at the next town hall meeting on your behalf.
Or, McCain is smart enough to realize that it really doesn’t hurt us to move away from fossil fuels and our dependancy on the Mid East tyrants who make a lot of their profit from us and others because of those same fuels.
Perhaps McCain figured out that if we could lead through example, like some of our foreign neighbors, that maybe the world would be less dependent on the ME, Central America for fuel and possibly he thinks the climate might benefit as well?
He merely used the word “implicated” after all. It’s not like he said it was the only reason, nor did he say it was the primary reason, he simply said this is something that has been.....implicated...and, well, we certainly know words have meanings. Bat told me so.
Just a tidbit:
The #1 largest global warming gas is water vapor. However, I’m thinking that we should leave that one alone. Methane is more energy (heat) retaining that CO2, so Rob is right, however it is in lower abundance.
H2O is responsable for about 36% of Greenhouse effect heat and CO2 account for 9% of the greenhouse effect. These numbers we gained via chroatographic cross section at one ATM in typical air gas proportions, including N, He, Ar and O3.
Now, if you change the percentages of gas, you change the numbers in terms of energy retention. (pv=nrt) However, what is overlooked is the high degree of CO2 and methane, in solution, in the oceans. Removal of CO2 or methane may not trigger a favorable climatic change due to gas solution release from the oceans as ATM pressure changes.
It’s believed that the CO2 release, from solution, from the oceans during the Permian may have caused that extinction event. However, it is worth noting that the earth was still very young in having an oxygen bearing atmosphere so the heating and cooling effects would be much more drastic.
That being said, If McCain’s plan allows for an increase in usage in renewable energy without handicapping market mechinisms, I’m all for it. I honestly doubt it will effect the global temperature, but anything that provides for more energy independence and the usage of hydrocarbon as trasnportation fuel only, instead of electric generation, is a step in the right direction.
Additionally, US efforts to encourage better alignment with Canada and Mexico for oil imports would be nice. i find it sad that we import more oil from an American hating Hugo Chavez than we do from Mexico. Convincing Mexico to allow US investment and exploration in thier country could help jump start their economy, create mexican jobs, reduce oil and gas transportation cost, decrease the US focus on Middle eastern policy and help with illegal immigration while providing the oil we use.
The same can be said of encoraging the production of Canadian resources, which welcome outside investment. At these prices, the Canadain oil sands look pretty good and Canada is aligned with US interests more often than not.
No, it can’t replace OPEC but I’d rather transfer US wealth to Mexico or Canada in our oil importing than Saudi Arabia.
First of all comparing glaciers that probably only formed during the little ice age is a pretty crappy way to “prove” global warming. Where were those glaciers before the little ice age.
I also have to disagree with the other Rob. If McCain gave a damn about energy independence he wouldn’t have done what he did to develop ANWR.
He’s pandering to whack jobs that aren’t going to support him. You said that maybe McCain was “smart enough.” I don’t have an opinion of his intelligence, but I do have an opinion of his arrogance. He is arrogant enough to screw over the people of this country rather than admit he’s wrong.
This is a long comment, for which I wish to apologize. The problem is, Mr. Barr’s website isn’t quite up-to-date when it comes to the intertubes.
I received the following press release on Wednesday, but there is no link available on his website. So, skip past this comment if you want to avoid his press release.
The reason for this comment is, when I received this press release, I kinda shrugged and muttered “dumb”. Then Senator McCain announces that he has taken the Man Made Global Warming kool-aid, and pronounced it “good”.
He was never my first choice. Not even my second. But, thanks to Florida, here we are. He admits he’s no economist. Now he admits he’s no rocket scientist. Yes, he has suffered. Yes, he’s been in D.C. too long. No, I don’t want to vote for Mr. Barr, but, you should at least hear what he has to say, now that Senator McCain has left the building.
So, I end this comment at this point. To see the communication from Mr. Barr, I’ve posted it here, to save poor SayAnything from my excess.
http://tinyurl.com/5n4uaw
There’s a curious irony about Bob Barr. He was the first congressman to call for the impeachment of Bill Clinton, true enough.
But before he was a congressman, he was one of the US Attorneys who were all summarily fired by incoming President Bill Clinton! Had Clinton not fired all those US Attorneys, an acto for which he certainly had the necessary constitutional authority, he might very well never have been impeached, and Monica Lewinski’s DNA splattered dress would never have made to the headlines and the evening news.
Of course, Bob Barr, an honorable but somewhat kookie Liberatarian, has also called for the impeachment of George W. Bush. But Mr. Bush will be long out of office before anyone of importance takes that call seriously.
Barr’s Liberarian candidacy is likely to attract at least as many disaffected Demcorats as it will Republicans.
Maybe pound-per-pound, methane is a more potent greenhouse gas, but CO2 is still a larger effect in the atmosphere due to its greater abundance. Pretty much the same point that Rob B made.
Whistler, the fact that we have had 150 years of deglaciation is proof of global warming, just not man-made.
Also, if as H. pointed out, “implicated” means “a cause” not “the only cause”, then McCain and I pretty much agree on this too.
I know you guys hate McCain outright, so I wouldn’t expect a fair trial here in any case.
I realize that, and I am often (usually) unclear on the fact that YES we are warming but the man-caused portion of that is not the largest driver of that.
However since McCain is “fixing” the problem of global warming by trying to coerce people to change their behavior it should be pretty clear that I oppose his stance that it’s man made (and only man made).
I fail to see how we’d halt a natural warming cycle (nor how we could nip this little cooling thing we’re in RIGHT NOW in the bud.)
I think he’s dangerously wrong on illegal immigration as well as his global warming stuff.
He’s been wrong on Campaign finance reform and some other things, but that’s water over the bridge.
Hate?
Whistler: hate?
Pretty close. To say you don’t play him down the middle is a bit like saying that gasoline isn’t entirely noncombustible.
However, I happen to think that he has pretty much shot himself in the foot on this one by the way. Cap and trade on this scale doesn’t work. Europe has pretty much proven that.