Is this a problem about Thompson not pandering to Dobson or not appealing to the church going voters?
Because if it’s the former then who gives a rip. People don’t vote because of what Dobson said. They vote their conscious.
The only thing the evangelical leaders have been good at is getting ahead of the church going public and pretending to be leading. Politically speaking of course.
The Whistler - 11:09am on 09/20/2007
I’m a very conservative Christian but sometimes I wish Dobson would just pipe down. Is he really saying that God has an opinion about McCain-Feingold?
His ministry takes the very valid view that “God cares about every area of our lives” and twists that into “God has an opinion about every single decision I make, and James Dobson knows what it is”.
John M - 11:09am on 09/20/2007
Dobson is a Douche and should spend his time focusing on the family, not fucking with Fred.
Justin B. - 12:09pm on 09/20/2007
that dear friends was a literary device known as alliteration. I just love the benefits of Senior English in High school.
Justin B. - 12:09pm on 09/20/2007
“His ministry takes the very valid view that “God cares about every area of our lives” and [he] twists that into “God has an opinion about every single decision I make, and James Dobson knows what it is.”
Most true believers in Christ study the Word daily and based on the amount of Spiritual light they have, they make decisions about what they think God would want them to do in every situation in life. That does not mean they believe they and they alone know God’s complete Will on every matter - which is what you are falsely charging Dobson of doing, but they do want to faithful to God by doing His Will and people like Dobson simply share their views more publicly than others, albeit against your will.
The only thing the evangelical leaders have been good at is getting ahead of the church going public and pretending to be leading.
Most of these evangelical leaders you thus condemn are leaders of large congregations, they are often involved in much larger, often global reach ministries and both Christians and non-Christians seek their views on issues of the day, including about candidates, for a variety of reasons, almost none of them being nefarious.
As a fiscal conservative who has grown a little weary of elections being more about things like gay marriage and Christian issues than the war on terror and fiscal policy, it’d be nice to see a candidate who’s a bit more independent of the Dobsons of the world.
I believe as evangelical Christians are increasingly guilty of caring about abortion, gay marriage and other moral issues, to your consternation and/or irritation I might add, I believe it is better that they stay away from the ballot box entirely and leave you atheists, agnostics and carnal Christians to - well to yourselves. Unfortunately, that will allow the Democrats to control the entire country, but at least then you’ll not be able to complain about those damnable Christian influences in our politic affairs.
The issue is quite clear and quite easy: Evangelicals should shut up and stay out of the political process entirely, it is part of your world system anyway; and then it will be fascinating to see how and if you can ever get another Republican or conservative elected to office anywhere. Otherwise, as disagreeable as you might find it, if Evangelicals are going to support your conservative candidates, I guess you may have to tolerate a little free political speech from them and allow them to push for their much hated moral issues.
Now, what would you like to choose?
[ ] Evangelical Christians stop voting and turn the Republican Party over to the secularists and thereby the country over to the Democrats completely.
[ ] Make the party inviting to Evangelical Christians, including allowing that scum some amount of free political speech and advance a few of those damnable moral issues.
[ ] Try the impossible and tell evangelical Christians to shut the hell up, leave their spiritual beliefs at home and vote for conservatives that do not support their beliefs. I would love to see how you accomplish this option.
Neiman - 12:09pm on 09/20/2007
Most of these evangelical leaders you thus condemn are leaders of large congregations, they are often involved in much larger, often global reach ministries and both Christians and non-Christians seek their views on issues of the day, including about candidates, for a variety of reasons, almost none of them being nefarious.
I said politically speaking Neiman. I’m giving credit to the churchgoers to vote their conscious as they see fit. Whether or not Dobson endorses Fred Thompson the average Christian is going to vote for who they think will be the best moral leader.
In no way was I diminishing a person who goes to church and was also voting. I don’t like some of the self appointed leaders in the Christian Political scene but I trust the Christian voters to do the right thing.
The Whistler - 12:09pm on 09/20/2007
I am a Fred Head! He has great conservative core values. Go Fred!
Zsa Zsa - 12:09pm on 09/20/2007
John M,
Your comment and the subsequent discussion you’re provoked, highlight a distinction between those on/in the Right and those on the left… a distinction that is too often ignored.
Ronald Reagan’s famous Eleventh Commandment, to not speak ill of another Republican, was directed at GOP candidates and officials, not at Republicans in general. Those of us on/in the Right are quite “liberal” in our criticism of other Republicans, which to me indicates far more independence of thought and adherence to principles than is ever demonstrated by those on the left.
For example, when was the last time you read about a Democrat criticizing Nan Aaron of the so-called Alliance for Justice? When have Democrats criticized Ralph Neas of PAW for his outright lies? Or Ramsey Clark of International ANSWER, Medea Benjamin of Code Pink, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now!, or Nadine Strossen or Dorothy Erhlich of the ACLU? For that matter, which serious candidate for the Dem’s ‘08 presidential nomination has criticized the MoveOn.org ad sliming General Petraeus?
Read about any criticism from the left of Jesse Jackson’s career of extortion, or Julian Bond’s virulent self-pity? Ever?
For whatever reason, paranoid loyalty, congenital ignorance, or simple fear, those on the left don’t criticize the words and actions of their fellow liberals, whereas those of us on/in the Right criticize our fellow Republicans with rich abandon. People on the left talk a lot about democracy. They rarely mention freedom. Those of us on/in the Right know better. And we act accordingly.
Bat One - 01:09pm on 09/20/2007
Whistler: I wasn’t attacking you or claiming you have any negative views towards Christians. I was solely responding to the point you raised about these Evangelical leaders, even self-anointed leaders, by my pointing out they are most often genuine leaders in the Evangelical Christian community for the many reasons I stated.
Second, are you suggesting that because these people have gained the following and respect of large numbers of sincere Christians and either within their ministries or when called upon by the media they should remain silent about their views? Dobson has a massive ministry via radio, public appearances as a Christian Psychologist, his books and other Christian related works, and so thereby he expresses his opinion which the secular media promotes even further and/or the media seeks him out as a leader within the Christian community.
Note: I am not a supporter in any shape, manner or form of Dobson’s ministry or Christian Psychology in general, my responses herein are solely to counter the tendency to condemn Christians via such leaders pronouncements for daring to speak out on issues they feel are important to their lives. They not only have a Constitutional right to do so, they are obligated by their faith in Christ to speak to the critical moral issues in the world. Does that include endorsing political candidates? Probably not a good idea as it diminishes their Christian message. What about moral/social issues? Yes, every Christian has such an obligation and if candidate A is more closely supportive of those issues than candidate B, then if by implication that amounts to an endorsement of candidate A, so be it!
One little housekeeping detail: twice you have said most Christian vote their ‘conscious,’ whilst I believe you meant ‘conscience?’ I do hope they only vote while conscious, but actually vote according to their conscience.
Neiman - 01:09pm on 09/20/2007
the average Christian is going to vote for who they think will be the best moral leader.
toot, I’m not sure what is an average Christian but this Christian considers other candidate characteristics as well. Honesty is high on my list although I realize that ‘honest politician’ is an oxymoron. However there are some politicians, mostly liberal, that I wouldn’t believe if they said the sun was shining in the middle of the day.
Like many others I believe that the biggest moral issues are abortion and homosexual marriage. I know where the Democrats stand on these issues but I’m not sure of the Republicans. However, if Hillary or Obama are the Democratic candidate, I’ll probably for the Republican regardless who it is.
Is this a problem about Thompson not pandering to Dobson or not appealing to the church going voters?
Because if it’s the former then who gives a rip. People don’t vote because of what Dobson said. They vote their conscious.
The only thing the evangelical leaders have been good at is getting ahead of the church going public and pretending to be leading. Politically speaking of course.
I’m a very conservative Christian but sometimes I wish Dobson would just pipe down. Is he really saying that God has an opinion about McCain-Feingold?
His ministry takes the very valid view that “God cares about every area of our lives” and twists that into “God has an opinion about every single decision I make, and James Dobson knows what it is”.
Dobson is a Douche and should spend his time focusing on the family, not fucking with Fred.
that dear friends was a literary device known as alliteration. I just love the benefits of Senior English in High school.
Most true believers in Christ study the Word daily and based on the amount of Spiritual light they have, they make decisions about what they think God would want them to do in every situation in life. That does not mean they believe they and they alone know God’s complete Will on every matter - which is what you are falsely charging Dobson of doing, but they do want to faithful to God by doing His Will and people like Dobson simply share their views more publicly than others, albeit against your will.
Most of these evangelical leaders you thus condemn are leaders of large congregations, they are often involved in much larger, often global reach ministries and both Christians and non-Christians seek their views on issues of the day, including about candidates, for a variety of reasons, almost none of them being nefarious.
I believe as evangelical Christians are increasingly guilty of caring about abortion, gay marriage and other moral issues, to your consternation and/or irritation I might add, I believe it is better that they stay away from the ballot box entirely and leave you atheists, agnostics and carnal Christians to - well to yourselves. Unfortunately, that will allow the Democrats to control the entire country, but at least then you’ll not be able to complain about those damnable Christian influences in our politic affairs.
The issue is quite clear and quite easy: Evangelicals should shut up and stay out of the political process entirely, it is part of your world system anyway; and then it will be fascinating to see how and if you can ever get another Republican or conservative elected to office anywhere. Otherwise, as disagreeable as you might find it, if Evangelicals are going to support your conservative candidates, I guess you may have to tolerate a little free political speech from them and allow them to push for their much hated moral issues.
Now, what would you like to choose?
[ ] Evangelical Christians stop voting and turn the Republican Party over to the secularists and thereby the country over to the Democrats completely.
[ ] Make the party inviting to Evangelical Christians, including allowing that scum some amount of free political speech and advance a few of those damnable moral issues.
[ ] Try the impossible and tell evangelical Christians to shut the hell up, leave their spiritual beliefs at home and vote for conservatives that do not support their beliefs. I would love to see how you accomplish this option.
I said politically speaking Neiman. I’m giving credit to the churchgoers to vote their conscious as they see fit. Whether or not Dobson endorses Fred Thompson the average Christian is going to vote for who they think will be the best moral leader.
In no way was I diminishing a person who goes to church and was also voting. I don’t like some of the self appointed leaders in the Christian Political scene but I trust the Christian voters to do the right thing.
I am a Fred Head! He has great conservative core values. Go Fred!
John M,
Your comment and the subsequent discussion you’re provoked, highlight a distinction between those on/in the Right and those on the left… a distinction that is too often ignored.
Ronald Reagan’s famous Eleventh Commandment, to not speak ill of another Republican, was directed at GOP candidates and officials, not at Republicans in general. Those of us on/in the Right are quite “liberal” in our criticism of other Republicans, which to me indicates far more independence of thought and adherence to principles than is ever demonstrated by those on the left.
For example, when was the last time you read about a Democrat criticizing Nan Aaron of the so-called Alliance for Justice? When have Democrats criticized Ralph Neas of PAW for his outright lies? Or Ramsey Clark of International ANSWER, Medea Benjamin of Code Pink, Amy Goodman of Democracy Now!, or Nadine Strossen or Dorothy Erhlich of the ACLU? For that matter, which serious candidate for the Dem’s ‘08 presidential nomination has criticized the MoveOn.org ad sliming General Petraeus?
Read about any criticism from the left of Jesse Jackson’s career of extortion, or Julian Bond’s virulent self-pity? Ever?
For whatever reason, paranoid loyalty, congenital ignorance, or simple fear, those on the left don’t criticize the words and actions of their fellow liberals, whereas those of us on/in the Right criticize our fellow Republicans with rich abandon. People on the left talk a lot about democracy. They rarely mention freedom. Those of us on/in the Right know better. And we act accordingly.
Whistler: I wasn’t attacking you or claiming you have any negative views towards Christians. I was solely responding to the point you raised about these Evangelical leaders, even self-anointed leaders, by my pointing out they are most often genuine leaders in the Evangelical Christian community for the many reasons I stated.
Second, are you suggesting that because these people have gained the following and respect of large numbers of sincere Christians and either within their ministries or when called upon by the media they should remain silent about their views? Dobson has a massive ministry via radio, public appearances as a Christian Psychologist, his books and other Christian related works, and so thereby he expresses his opinion which the secular media promotes even further and/or the media seeks him out as a leader within the Christian community.
Note: I am not a supporter in any shape, manner or form of Dobson’s ministry or Christian Psychology in general, my responses herein are solely to counter the tendency to condemn Christians via such leaders pronouncements for daring to speak out on issues they feel are important to their lives. They not only have a Constitutional right to do so, they are obligated by their faith in Christ to speak to the critical moral issues in the world. Does that include endorsing political candidates? Probably not a good idea as it diminishes their Christian message. What about moral/social issues? Yes, every Christian has such an obligation and if candidate A is more closely supportive of those issues than candidate B, then if by implication that amounts to an endorsement of candidate A, so be it!
One little housekeeping detail: twice you have said most Christian vote their ‘conscious,’ whilst I believe you meant ‘conscience?’ I do hope they only vote while conscious, but actually vote according to their conscience.
toot, I’m not sure what is an average Christian but this Christian considers other candidate characteristics as well. Honesty is high on my list although I realize that ‘honest politician’ is an oxymoron. However there are some politicians, mostly liberal, that I wouldn’t believe if they said the sun was shining in the middle of the day.
Like many others I believe that the biggest moral issues are abortion and homosexual marriage. I know where the Democrats stand on these issues but I’m not sure of the Republicans. However, if Hillary or Obama are the Democratic candidate, I’ll probably for the Republican regardless who it is.