Say Anything Blog

We deserve to know where the cadidates stand on this issue now, before the election.

This issue came up in a Cardin/Steele debate Sunday. I thought Steele kicked some tail here.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

Whistler,

Spending bills must originate in the House…

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

It’s possible that some democrats are threatening to “de-fund” the Iraq war (although it would be nice if you would cite your source).

On the other hand, Bush is actually de-funding the army:

The White House Office of Management and Budget rejected Army chief Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker’s extraordinary plea by for the additional funds to pay for repairing and replacing thousands of worn out and blown up tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles and Humvees.

Instead of the $25 billion that Schoomaker says the Army needs just to keep doing what it’s been doing with spit, adhesive tape and baling wire for the last five years, the Pentagon says the Army can have $7 billion.

Sorry Will, link added.

But let me get this straight: The Democrats are threatening to defund the war to the point where we’re forced to flee like we did in Vietnam...and you’re kvetching about the Bush administration only giving an additional $7 billion for maintenance?

You can’t have it both ways on this.  Either you’re with the Dems for defunding the war until we pull out, or you’re with the Bush administration in trying to win in Iraq.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rodney I suppose the Senate could take funding out of the House bill.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

You can’t have it both ways on this.  Either you’re with the Dems for defunding the war until we pull out, or you’re with the Bush administration in trying to win in Iraq.

I’m for having some responsible oversight of the war effort, and from what we’ve all seen in the past three and a half years of ineptitude and corruption, we’re not getting it with the Republicans controlling all branches of government.

You don’t seem to mind that Bush is only willing to give the army less than a third of the funds it needs for equipment replacement and maintenance.

What’s more important is that the Iraqis want us to leave and they feel that the US occupation is having a negative influence on their country.

You don’t seem to mind that Bush is only willing to give the army less than a third of the funds it needs for equipment replacement and maintenance.

According to a magazine opinion piece.

You don’t seem to mind that the Democrats are looking to choke off funding for the war in Iraq so that we’re forced to flee like we were in Vietnam.

And as for the Iraqis wanting us to leave...read it and weep dummy.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

will opines:

I’m for having some responsible oversight of the war effort, and from what we’ve all seen in the past three and a half years of ineptitude and corruption, we’re not getting it with the Republicans controlling all branches of government.

Right.  News flash, bucko, the Republicans set all time records in terms of military campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq.  They are still ahead of schedule for setting a new record (less than 7 years) for defeating an insurgency.

As regards corruption, I have heard no reports of the Lincoln Bedroom being rented out in this administration, nor of Presidential Pardons for sale to the highest bidder.

You don’t seem to mind that Bush is only willing to give the army less than a third of the funds it needs for equipment replacement and maintenance.

StrategyPage reports that request as for re-starting a depot level maintenance program that was abolished during the Clinton Administration.  The reduced level of funding is that which the facility will require for its first year of operation (rather a test, if you will).  I for one find that a resposible approach to spending.

What’s more important is that the Iraqis want us to leave and they feel that the US occupation is having a negative influence on their country.

I see Rob has already demonstrated this to be a lie.

That’s zero for three for those keeping score.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

the Republicans set all time records in terms of military campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq

Oh yes.  “Mission accomplished”.  Heck of a job, Bushie!  You seem to be glossing over the fact that the botched occupation is what allowed the insurgency to flourish.

They are still ahead of schedule for setting a new record (less than 7 years) for defeating an insurgency.

Ahead of schedule?  A new record?  You’re putting a ton of lipstick on this pig.  I don’t remember Bush laying out a schedule for a 7 year insurgency.  So how many more years will they be finding dozens of bodies daily of Iraqis who have been bound, tortured, killed, and dumped in the streets of Baghdad?  Your “schedule” says three more years?  I’ve got news for you.  The insurgency is being supplanted by civil war.  Your 7 year schedule is meaningless.

I see Rob has already demonstrated this to be a lie.

He has done no such thing.  He merely pointed to an article claiming that the al-Maliki government wants us to stay (for at least a year).  I was pointing to a [url=http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/250.php?nid=&id=&pnt=250&lb=hmpg1[/url] showing that the Iraqi people want us to leave (within a year).  The Iraqis polled also believe that the US Military presence is provoking more conflict than it is preventing, which is also what the NIE said.

will continues to demonstrate his ignorance of history and recent events thus:

I originally wrote:
the Republicans set all time records in terms of military campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq

To which will replies:
Oh yes.  “Mission accomplished”.  Heck of a job, Bushie!  You seem to be glossing over the fact that the botched occupation is what allowed the insurgency to flourish.

Both the Taliban of Afghanistan and the Iraqi government were militarily defeated in record time, with record minimal forces.  Get your head around that pair of historical facts.

The fact that insurgencies arose in both does not alter the fact that the actual overthrow of both were record setting.

And if you really think that the insurgency is flourishing in both Iraq and Afhanistan, then you must get all of what little information you seem to have from CNN.

My quote again:
They are still ahead of schedule for setting a new record (less than 7 years) for defeating an insurgency.

In response to which will spewed:
Ahead of schedule?  A new record?  You’re putting a ton of lipstick on this pig.  I don’t remember Bush laying out a schedule for a 7 year insurgency.  So how many more years will they be finding dozens of bodies daily of Iraqis who have been bound, tortured, killed, and dumped in the streets of Baghdad?  Your “schedule” says three more years?  I’ve got news for you.  The insurgency is being supplanted by civil war.  Your 7 year schedule is meaningless.

Yes, ahead of schedule.  Yes, a new record.  Those familiar with the history of insurgency and counter insurgency know the typical time scale for such (~10 years) and the outliers (low record of 7, one still ongoing after more than a century).  Your demonstrated ignorance on these matters is not a failure on the part of anyone but yourself.

Bush did not set a callendar, because he is familiar with the un-predictable nature of warfare in general, and insurgencies in particular.  The use of such fixed date callendars in such matters is reserved for fools and poltroons.

While it is possible that the insurgency could indeed become a civil war, it has not yet done so.  Should such a civil war truly break out, it will be short and brutal, as the Sunni minority no longer controlls the Armed Forces and para-military police.

My personal belief is that the insurgency will wind down over the next three to five years, and that U. S. Forces will still be in Iraq for about as long as U. S. Forces have remained in Japan and Germany (you are aware that we still have troops in both, sixty years after the end of WWII?).

Disputant, educate thyself.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Will said, ...we’re not getting it with the Republicans controlling all branches of government.

All three? I know that the Republicans control the executive and legislature, but they don’t control the judiciary. Not even by a long shot.

And besides, we really have four branches of government. You forgot the entitlement/administrative branch that the Dems have set up.

Oh yes.  “Mission accomplished”.  Heck of a job, Bushie!

That mission was accomplished Willie!

You seem to be glossing over the fact that the botched occupation is what allowed the insurgency to flourish.

Yeah...I pine for the days when wars were run perfectly. Remember those days? Me neither.

Yes, ahead of schedule.  Yes, a new record.  Those familiar with the history of insurgency and counter insurgency ... blah blah blah

By what measures are we “ahead” is your insurgency schedule?  And really, who cares about “records”?  This isn’t a high school track meet.  What matters is whether we’ve advanced the interests of the US, or the Iraqis or the world, in proportion to the blood we’ve spilled and the hundreds of billions of dollars we’ve spent in Iraq.

Look at Bush’s results: Iraq is spiraling toward civil war, with secular violence, ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods, and the bodies of Iraqis who have been tortured and murdered routinely being dumped in the streets of Baghdad.  On a typical day in Iraq, there’s plenty of news like this:

BAGHDAD - A car bomb ripped through a wedding procession in the northeastern district of Ur in Baghdad, killing 15 people, including four children, Interior Ministry and police said.

TARMIYA - More than 40 people were missing after gunmen ambushed minibuses travelling to Baghdad near Tarmiya, 30 km (20 miles), north of the capital, a spokesman for the Joint Coordination Center for Iraqi and U.S. forces in the northern city of Tikrit said.

NEAR SUWAYRA - The bodies of five gunmen were found in an orchard which was the scene of clashes between gunmen and the police several days ago near the town of Suwayra, 40 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

SUWAYRA - The bodies of three people were recovered from the Tigris river in Suwayra, police said.

BAQUBA - The bodies of eight people were found, bound and gagged, in Baquba, police said. All the victims were shot in the head.

All this to topple Saddam, a petty tyrant with no WMDs and no collaborative relationship with al Qaeda.  The UN Weapons Inspectors were busy verifying that Saddam had no WMDs but Bush kicked them out of Iraq so he could start his war.

Meanwhile, Iran has become dramatically more powerful in the region, having gained tremendous influence in Iraq thanks to Bush’s war.  Also, Iran has brazenly moved forward with its nuclear program; it just installed equipment to allow it to double its uranium enrichment output.

And let’s not forget the NIE, which indicated that the Iraq war has been a major factor in increasing the spread of jihadism:

The Iraq conflict has become the ‘cause celebre’ for jihadists, breeding a deep
resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for
the global jihadist movement.

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its
vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.

So please stop crowing about Bush setting records and accomplishing missions.  His war in Iraq has made the world a more dangerous place.  Likwidshoe is correct to observe that wars don’t “run perfectly”.  Wars create bloodshed, suffering, and all sorts of unintended consequences.  That’s why we should try harder to avoid them.  The people who attacked us on 9/11 were Saudis, not Iraqis.

willy opines:

Rod Graves Originally replied:
Yes, ahead of schedule.  Yes, a new record.  Those familiar with the history of insurgency and counter insurgency ... [blah blah blah]

By what measures are we “ahead” is your insurgency schedule?  And really, who cares about “records”?  This isn’t a high school track meet.  What matters is whether we’ve advanced the interests of the US, or the Iraqis or the world, in proportion to the blood we’ve spilled and the hundreds of billions of dollars we’ve spent in Iraq.

Looks like I shall have to begin with some remedial education.

1.  Ahead of schedule in that the overall trend of successfully insurgent operations (against both coalition and Iraqi forces) is on the decline.  Ahead of schedule in that al Qaeda reports that their effectiveness and influence are on the wane.

2.  Records.  The “record” is less important than the historical context, which you both lack and handwave at.  Anyone who would expect an insurgency to be defeated in less than 5, given that the “record” on the short end is seven years, years is a fool, an ignoramus, or both.  Which best fits willies postings here is left as an exercise for the reader.

3.  Goals.  Given that there have been no further successful attacks by al Qaeda and affiliated groups within the United States, that constitutes either a phenomenally low probability coincidence, or demonstrates the effectiveness of the Bush Doctrine.

4.  Costs.  I’d far rather piss away treasure than blood, and when blood must be shed, I’d prefer that price to be paid by the professionals who have volunteered to take that risk and when necessary, pay that price.  Your obvious preference to collect that blood price from innocent civilians does not reflect well on you.

As regards the rest of your post, I reward it’s demonstrated ignorance by ignoring it.

Disputant, educate thyself.

Out Here
Rodney Graves

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Persia delenda est.
Latin: “Persia (modern day Iran) should be destoyed”