Why Americans Will Reject National Health Care

With the Democrats back in power you can bet that they’ll be pushing a “universal health care” (read: socialized medicine) agenda. Jane Galt lays out four reasons why that agenda may not find much traction:

1) It cannot provide less, or less rapid, coverage than the typical American policy does now. Over three quarters of Americans are happy as clams with their health care now; to the extent that they support national health care, it is because they fear losing what they have. Nationalisers, therefore, cannot sell a programme by guaranteeing them that they will lose some of what they have now. Horror stories aside, most Americans, despite their copays, have much more lavish coverage than that available elsewhere, with unfettered access to their doctors, semiprivate hospital rooms, expensive machines around every corner, and so forth. In what other country would my eighty-eight year old grandmother have had her hip replaced two weeks after the doctor decided it was time? That two weeks being the period needed for my mother to arrange her schedule so she could take care of Mom. That is the baseline of care, not whatever is currently on offer in France, no matter how fond the French may be of their system. Countries with national systems set them up a long time ago, when the median voter had no insurance at all, so whatever crap the government gave you was an improvement.
2) It cannot substantially lower the wages of medical workers. They all have powerful lobbies, and they vote on their interests. Doctors in Britain may be thrilled to make 60K a year in return for the shot at someday, if they’re very lucky, exiting the system for a private hospital. You will not get American physicians to take the same deal; they’ve already got hefty mortgages and kids in private school. Between the right of exit and the lobbying power of the unions, it will be some time before we can even eat into doctor’s pay with inflation; I would expect the pay of lower level medical employees to rise (New York’s experience is instructive here).
3) It cannot ration end-of-life care. The AARP is the most powerful lobby in America. Anyone who thinks that a nationalised system will ration all those dollars poured down the drain in the last few months of life is engaging in fantasy—a particularly ludicrous and risible fantasy because we already have nationalised health care for end-of-life care RIGHT NOW and we’re spending like eighty shrillion dollars on it.
4) It will not cover immigrants, at least not until they are citizens. That means at least 12 million people will remain uninsured. It also means that emergency room usage will remain high, since that is where illegal immigrants tend to get their health care. Not that this really matters. It doesn’t seem to me that emergency room care for routine ailments is actually more expensive to provide than clinical care; it’s just that hospitals price it to cover the cost of dead, uninsured trauma patients and so forth. I don’t see how a triage nurse, a doctor, and a waiting room are more expensive to provide because they’re on the first floor than they would be on the fifth. But perhaps I’m missing something there.

What it boils down to is this: The vast majority of Americans who have health care coverage now would have to exchange the most responsive, most advanced, most comprehensive medical care in the world they receive now for a system that is prone to waiting lists and rationing of services, is really expensive to fund through the government and is run by the same people responsible for such monuments to bureaucratic efficiency as the post office and the department of motor vehicles. All so that a minority of this country’s population could enjoy “free” health care.
I just don’t see that happening.
Are there problems with our current medical system? Absolutely. It costs too much, and so people are reliant upon their employers and the government to pay for it. But I think the solution to that problem lays through introducing market forces into the health care industry by making individuals more responsible for paying their own medical costs rather than a system that shifts that burden onto the collective.

Tags: , ,


«
»
  • http://Array robert108

    Call me an idiot, but market forces are not a universal mousetrap to throw all of our problems in.

    I don’t call you an idiot, just ignorant of economics. I have never thrown anything into a mousetrap, btw.

    The market has created the computer industry in which you hope to make money someday. The investment in the infrastructure that gives you a job comes from the profits made through free enterprise, not from confiscating money from productive people. You will be in competition with other people who have paid for their own education, and they will have a leg up on you for that very reason. You think things should be handed to you, but they will be motivated to go out and get their fortunes, and will work hard to do that. It’s called incentive.

  • Bat One

    I’d like to know with all this talk of “greater good” or “common good” (leftwing buzzword du jour) exactly who is it that will determine just what that “greater” or “common good” is supposed to be? Some Soros-funded, anonymous, progressive think-tank? Theresa Heinz Kerry? Dingy Harry Reid?

    I’ve read the US Constitution dozens of times in my lifetime, and I don’t recall anything about enforced sacrifice for the “”greater good.” The closest I can find is the part in the Preamble about “… promote the general welfare,” but that comes right before the part about “…and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity.” And I don’t hear any Democrats talking about liberty at all. Either here or anywhere else in the world.

    So who is supposed to decide just what this “greater good” is?

  • robert108

    Bat: One leftie already tried to interpret “promote the general welfare” as meaning govt paychecks for everyone. Sheesh! Those lefties…

  • http://www.fileitunder.com/ Hoodlumman

    But sometimes the greater good is profitless, and hard. Like going to war, sacrifices must be made. I’m prepared to sacrifice for the greater good. Are you?

    Нет, я не готов к тому шагу, товарищу. Спасибо за запрос.

  • http://www.fileitunder.com/ Hoodlumman

    And for a great example of money down the toilet, see public education.

    We dump billions into that annually and where do we rank globally?

  • robert108

    Not out of thin air. No. From taxation. I don’t have a problem with paying my taxes.

    I do, if they are used to finance social engineering for special interests.

    Like I don’t mind paying my membership dues.

    That is your personal choice, and you can choose not to pay them. Taxes are confiscated from us.

    And most of all I don’t whine about it.

    I also ask my representatives to raise the gas tax by several dollars.

    For what purpose? You don’t say. I want to pay the market price, not an inflated govt price.

    Market economies don’t move where there’s no profit.

    The profit is the investment for the next round of prosperity; something you apparently don’t understand.

    But sometimes the greater good is profitless,

    This is meaningless. Who decides what the greater good is? If it’s the people, through their economic choices, that’s OK. If it’s some parasitic govt agency, it’s not OK.

    and hard. Like going to war, sacrifices must be made.

    We finance the present war with about 2% of our GDP. At one point in WWII, it took 130% of our GDP. Our economic system is so prosperous we don’t need to sacrifice anymore for war. Why cripple it with profligate govt schemes, unnecessary taxation and regulation?

    I’m prepared to sacrifice for the greater good. Are you?

    I will determine my sacrifice; it’s not up to you or some govt drone.

  • Kay

    http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

    This is an interesting link I found awhile back–hope it’s OK to post a URL…

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Not out of thin air. No. From taxation. I don’t have a problem with paying my taxes. Like I don’t mind paying my membership dues. And most of all I don’t whine about it.

    I also ask my representatives to raise the gas tax by several dollars.

    What a lie. If you really feel obligated to pay more than you should today.

    In fact there’s more than enough people who claim to want to provide health insurance to the uninsured. Why don’t you guys ban together and get it done?

    Why because what you really want is someone ELSE to pay.

  • robert108

    SteveL: While you are right that insurance is a cost to business, it is simply an expense, not an economic cost.
    BTW, when govt is involved, the taxpayers pay everything, all the time. There is no other source of money for the govt.
    Taxation is transferring money from the private sector to the public sector. How can that be good? In some cases, like national defense, it is a necessary evil, but the less taxation, the less evil.

  • supergreen

    Not out of thin air. No. From taxation. I don’t have a problem with paying my taxes. Like I don’t mind paying my membership dues. And most of all I don’t whine about it.

    I also ask my representatives to raise the gas tax by several dollars.

    Market economies don’t move where there’s no profit. But sometimes the greater good is profitless, and hard. Like going to war, sacrifices must be made. I’m prepared to sacrifice for the greater good. Are you?

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Sacrificing for the greater good is umm what our soldiers are supposedly doing in Iraq right? And why we donate to charities.

    The greatest good for all would be for the people without health insurance to step up to the plate and get coverage.

    The greatest good invariably results from free people making free choices.

    Does it bother you that the government steals 70% of the money the confiscate to supposedly help the poor?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Thank you, supergreen, for proving my point. Unfortunately, a lot of Americans do not understand that government cannot conjure medical care out of thin air.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Um, Supergreen, it’s already been established (see Kay’s post) that suposedly “universal” health care does not actually guarantee health care for all. The same groups at risk in private health care (infants, elderly, long term disabled) are even more at risk in government health care than in privately funded health care. I don’t mind sacrificing for an actual result, but I do object to pouring money down the toilet.

  • GroovyPKP

    Excuse me, but immigrants, including and especially illegal immigrants, have it made right now: I work in a national retail pharmacy; they have W.I.C., Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc. Adults pay a $3 copay for meds and their oodles of children get FREE medicine and FREE Dr. visits. Most of them can’t even speak English, but they know how to say “medicaid” and whip out that card. My health insurance deductible is $1,200! When I buy milk for my family, I have to pay for it. Twelve million immigrants losing their lucrative coverage if we go with national coverage is the least of my worries!

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Excuse me, but immigrants, including and especially illegal immigrants, have it made right now: I work in a national retail pharmacy; they have W.I.C., Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc. Adults pay a $3 copay for meds and their oodles of children get FREE medicine and FREE Dr. visits. Most of them can’t even speak English, but they know how to say “medicaid” and whip out that card. My health insurance deductible is $1,200! When I buy milk for my family, I have to pay for it. Twelve million immigrants losing their lucrative coverage if we go with national coverage is the least of my worries!

    This should not be happening and we should be sending Fox the bill.

  • http://www.fileitunder.com/ Hoodlumman

    I’m not opposed to that as long as we take steps to make sure that the taxpayer isn’t unduly soaked.

    Every huge gov’t entitlement program soaks us. But politicians don’t care about spending your money. They care about appealing to voters to keep them in power.

  • Steve L.

    This article makes the assumption that we would completely scrap the current system and evelop a fully nationalized one. As far as I know, no one has suggested that. Even in the days of Hillarycare, they were only discussing covering the uninsured. I don’t have a problem with that concept. I just don’t think it should be totally free.

    A system could be developed that allowed for levels of payment depending on income level or the like. In that way, the users are still responsible for the cost. It should be no better than any current plan. Co-pays and deductibles should be included as a part of the package. This would discourage people from dropping their private insurance to get on the cheaper, government insurance since there would be no real advantage.

    There would need to be laws in place to prevent companies from dropping health insurance as a benefit. If a company did drop insurance, they should be required to pay an additional tax based on the number of affected employees to cover the additional costs to the government. Ideally, the tax should be high enough to encourage employers to provide insurance.

    While I dislike the idea of a national health care system, I can see where there is a need for help for certain groups. I’m not opposed to that as long as we take steps to make sure that the taxpayer isn’t unduly soaked.

  • supergreen

    Socialized medical care?Yes. I’d vote for it. Hey wait! I did when I voted against the Republicans.

    Call me an idiot, but market forces are not a universal mousetrap to throw all of our problems in. You all keep on just re-affirming your beliefs without ever looking to see how they might be wrong. That’s called confirmation bias folks, and you guys got it bad.

    Apparently the rest of the Western world with its socialized medicine must be idiots since they’re not exactly clamoring for change. It works, and any European will tell you so. Your long lines are B.S. I know their B.S. because I’ve lived with the system, and I’ve never got better medical care. Except of course when I came back to the U.S. to an utter lack of it.

    But of course none of you will change your minds…EVER…because that’s why you’re all here anyway. To he whom wears shoe leather the whole world appears as shoe leather.

    Of course, when anyone (including you Rob) have anything of substance to say you can get back to me. Until then.

    supergreen

  • robert108

    Even in the days of Hillarycare, they were only discussing covering the uninsured.

    Not true. Hillarycare was designed to make all employers with more than ten employees to pay for the healthcare of their employees. In fact, every business in the US was required to register(show me your papers, please), and then some would be exempted. It was a takeover of every business in our country. Truly evil.
    She lied about it only being for the “uninsured”.
    My favorite quote from her about this:

    “The problem with healthcare in this country is all the 25-year olds that think they are immortal, and don’t buy health insurance.”

    In other words, we don’t have the right to say “no”.

  • robert108

    Agreed, Rob. Most of us are aware of that aspect, but most don’t know about the long term restriction of supply practiced by the govt and the AMA. The demand for doctors and nurses is greater than the supply(by design), and so prices are driven up.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    Steve, the solution to too much government isn’t more government.

  • http://SayAnythingBlog.com The_Whistler_ofnd

    I do think we need to pay more taxes for gasoline. At least another 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.

    what’s stopping you?

  • robert108

    Rob: Even so(and I agree with what you wrote), the primary “market force” is the supply/demand relationship. If it’s not free, you will have problems with price, no matter what else you do. Allowing the supply to meet the demand is primary to everything else.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    I think this thread is making a very basic mistake; we’re assuming that the public understands that the government cannot conjure medical care out of thin air. All of the economic arguments in the world are no defense when the population doesn’t understand or appreciate Econ 101.

    Let’s look at what we’ve seen on this weblog for evidence. If Rob posts about the high cost of prescription medications, he gets dozens of posters who believe that government can “negotiate” the price of medicines without affecting supply. If he posts about Social Security, he gets dozens of posters who believe that government can somehow guarantee old age pensions even if the economy tanks, or if we start living to age 200 instead of 80. Our supposedly “conservative” President added prescription drug coverage to MediScare–with bipartisan support.

    As far as I can tell, the battle against an expansion (not creation, but expansion) of socialized medicine is an uphill one right now because the electorate–on both sides of the aisle–does not understand that there is no free lunch.

  • robert108

    Rob: My experience is that in our demand system, unless restricted by taxation and regulation, business moves to provide the greatest amount of product to the maximum number of buyers. In other words, if we were free to do so, medical care would be available to as many people as possible at an affordable price.
    The AMA has regulated the supply of healthcare practitioners for over a hundred years, with a corresponding price penalty.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    Steve, the solution to too much government isn’t more government.

    It is to the Left, they think government dependence is the answer to all of our problems.

  • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/ goon

    America rejected once we will reject it again.
    Let them try.

  • Steve L.

    I couldn’t disagree with you more on this point.

    You misunderstood my point. If you implement any form of insurance provided by the government to cover uninsured workers, businesses would have the incentive to drop the insurance that they provide. Insurance coverage is a cost to a business. Currently if a business drops insurance, the employees are totally uncovered. The company runs the risk of losing those employees to a competitor who does offer insurance. As a result, there is incentive for a company to provide that benefit to get employees to stay.

    However, if the government guarantees that insurance to everyone, then the incentive for the company to provide it is gone. Now, a company can reduce costs by having the government pay for one of their benefits. Eventually, no companies would provide insurance and the taxpayers would pay for everything. The tax I proposed would encourage businesses to keep doing what they are already doing. They would only pay the tax if the chose to stop providing insurance.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    Regarding the “general welfare” clause, Madison noted that it is a header, not a power of the federal government. That is, the “general welfare” of citizens of our country was to be protected by using the enumerated powers, and those only. It’s worth noting that even most of our liberal courts understand this and routinely strike down bills “authorized” only by “general welfare.” (the flip side is an expansive notion of the interstate commerce clause)

    And supergreen, there is nothing that prevents you from leading by example. If you feel that you’re paying too little for gas, calculate the # of gallons you use and mail a check to whichever branch of government you think will use it best. If you think you’re paying too little in taxes, mail a check.

    As for me, I simply note that socialist and fascist economies are abyssmal in every area they undertake. Again, go to Kay’s link and take a look at the results of socialized medicine. It’s skyrocketing costs and imploding service–just like the Post Office, schools, welfare, and such. Government simply cannot conjure up goods and services since it produces none.

  • Bat One

    Robert108,

    More than one has tried, I’m sure.

    Still reading carefully what the Preamble ACTUALLY says, promoting “the general welfare” is listed as one of the reasons for which the Constitution is ordained and established. Not that promoting “the general welfare” was a direct and specific mandate to the federal government at all. When you think about it, there is a difference between saying this is why we are establishing a government, and saying this is what we want that government to do.

    In a sense, it is an argument similar to the one made by those on the left who insist that the Second Amendment is to be ignored because it was based solely on the requirement for an armed militia. Of course, they don’t generally care much for that comparison either.

  • robert108

    Sacrificing for the greater good is umm what our soldiers are supposedly doing in Iraq right? And why we donate to charities.

    Military service and giving to charity are personal choices. Paying taxes is not a choice; they confiscate it from our paychecks. Big difference.

    And why we pay taxes to our government. Its called altruism. Look it up. And altruism is not the same thing as communism. Its called patriotism. Or are you saying that what makes America great is its selfishness and greed?

    Actually, it’s self-interest. The really greedy and selfish people are those who live off the confiscated earnings of others.

    And of course anyone who is willing to pay taxes to pay for people’s medical care must be a communist. Are you guys like still stuck in the Cold War or what?

    You are the only one saying that; you just made it up.

    Willing to pay taxes? Our will is not involved; you will find that out when you start working on your own.

    Some of you guys act like I said the government should take everyone’s property away for them or something. Maybe they should read what I say instead of just reacting.

    When the govt confiscates our money in taxes, they are taking our property(and our freedom) away from us; some govt-based systems take more than others, so it’s not an “all or not at all” situation, like you think it is.

    As for nationalized health care not working. Let me see the evidence. The evidence I see is a system where people get the care they need.

    I am not an economist. But I am not ignorant of economics. I think you are. Otherwise you wouldn’t cling to the mantra that individual rational behavior in the free market necessarily leads to optimal outcomes.

    I said no such thing: a system based on individual self-interest creates prosperity, whereas on based on “sacrifice” is stagnant. It’s a fact. Free markets yield the best possible wealth creation, and this is proven over and over, every day. The reason you are studying how to make CPUs is because of private enterprise. If the computer market ever gets under govt control, it will stagnate, and you might be out of a job.

    You can’t justify it except by repeating it,

    It doesn’t require justification; it’s the truth, not a theory. It’s called the United States.

    and keeping your eyes blind to the world in front of us, and I might add, the considerable economics research on the subject. I’ve already mentioned before game theoretical research. Its a good starter.

    As for education. Yes our education system sucks. But you can’t say that this is because its publically funded. Most education systems are, and they do much better than our own here in the U.S. It is not an issue of public funding. Its an issue of doing it right.

    Agreed. “Doing it right” is about privatizing education, and stopping the confiscation. Private schools beat public schools every time, even without our tax money. They do this with a fraction of the administrative burden, and are a much better use of resources.

  • robert108

    It’s a deliberate misreading of the word “welfare” which really means “well-being”, not “govt dole”. Come to think of it, govt welfare doesn’t meet the requirement of promoting the general welfare at all.

  • supergreen

    Glad to see all of you congratulating yourselves. You have mine too.

    I’d like to know with all this talk of “greater good” or “common good” (leftwing buzzword du jour) exactly who is it that will determine just what that “greater” or “common good” is supposed to be? Some Soros-funded, anonymous, progressive think-tank? Theresa Heinz Kerry? Dingy Harry Reid?

    Who? Why you guys, of course. Why would you possibly be arguing that privatized healthcare, privatized education, less taxation, or more generally an unregulated free economy, if you did not think it better for everyone? In Robert’s own words:

    In a system based on individual self-interest creates prosperity, whereas on based on “sacrifice” is stagnant. It’s a fact. Free markets yield the best possible wealth creation, and this is proven over and over, every day.

    If Robert did not think “prosperity”, or that “stagnation” a common evil, he would not be opposed to it. Robert is in effect arguing that some systems are better at promoting the general welfare than are others. If you guys cannot recognize the assumptions underlying your own beliefs…

    Furthermore, if we have forgotten, our government is, theoretically, given its authority by us, the voters. Its decisions are supposed, again theoretically, to reflect the common will of the citizens of this republic. Thus speaking, taxation and welfare are the result of choices made by the people. Thus speaking, it is hard to see a theoretical argument as yours makes sense. The government is not stealing when it taxes people. It is doing what it is being told to do by the collective will of the people. No different than a vote on a committe to mandatorily begin collecting dues so to rennovate a meeting hall. Afterall, if you don’t like it, then you can always go live somewhere else.

    But realistically speaking, it is quite different than that, and here I do sympathize with you. The link between the will of the people and our governments (state and federal) is weakening. We are, for the most part, effectively powerless to make our voices heard. But I will suggest to you that this is an outgrowth of the very free-enterprise that you all seem to love so uncritically. Money, and power, are owned by businesses whose raison d’être is profit, not promoting democracy, nor liberty, nor the general welfare, and whose resources outstrip those of any of ours. And thus, we have allowed *our* government, that is, the institution which is the people’s institution, to be hijacked by those whose interests are not in good governance for, of, and by the people, but for the benefit of their profits. We cannot blame big business for doing this; we can only blame ourselves for being so stupid as to let it happen.

    Big blinders. Don’t drive while drunk. See the road ahead. Keep your headlights on, and for damn sure, use your blinkers.

    …to see whether any of you bothered to read this far before casting your stones.

  • robert108

    Money, and power, are owned by businesses whose raison d’être is profit, not promoting democracy, nor liberty, nor the general welfare, and whose resources outstrip those of any of ours.

    Two things you forget, or that you don’t regard:

    I did say that an economic system based on self-interest(the opposite of greed for the earnings of others)is that it is guided, “as if by an invisible hand”(Adam Smith) to provide the greatest good for the greatest number.
    The second thing is the inherent morality of the free enterprise system, which is that no transaction takes place unless both participants get what they want.

    This is why our system works. I don’t think stagnation is “evil”(your word, not mine); I think it is irresponsible to use the economic system to try to implement some centrally-determined social policy. Let the economic do its job, which is to create as much wealth as possible, and let society deal with that, instead of trying to limit the economic system out of fear.
    Your way favors totalitarian rule, where mine emphasizes individual independence. You apparently share the view of Karl Marx, who regarded return to capital, individual accomplishment, and business in general as evil, things to be controlled by an all-wise and all-knowing govt.
    Unfortunately for your personal beliefs, your way brings stagnation, misery, servitude and death, while ours brings wealth, and the responsibility that goes with it.
    Are you seriously contending that totalitarian rule promotes the general welfare of free people?
    The heart of your belief system is that people cannot do the right thing, unless some central authority tells them what to do. You fear freedom and individual initiative, which is what makes our country great.
    You are a collectivist, like a herd of wildebeest, and we are individualists, like the lion that preys on them, using his skills and individual prowess to satisfy his needs, while at the same time cooperating when appropriate.

  • robert108

    supergreen: One more point: when the govt taxes us, they use confiscation, not voluntary contribution(which would promote democracy). However, as long as their expenditures are for things we really need to have done collectively, it’s not stealing. When they promote their self-aggrandizing agenda, though, the political class definitely steals from us. When they create wasteful social programs that are designed to pander to any special interest group, they are stealing from us. When they hire more govt employees than are necessary to do the work efficiently, they are stealing from us, and when they suck up more than fifty cents on the dollar in infrastructure, they are stealing from us. My estimate is that govt could be slashed about 75% in size and expense without touching needed services, if we held their feet to the fire and made them function like any business does. Govt is the least productive segment of our society.

  • supergreen

    Actually it all just sounds like whining to me. yes I do think we need to pay more taxes for gasoline. At least another 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.

    Clever response writing something using the Russian alphabet. Actually not that clever. But funny. Wait no not that funny. Not at all.

    Sacrificing for the greater good is umm what our soldiers are supposedly doing in Iraq right? And why we donate to charities. And why we pay taxes to our government. Its called altruism. Look it up. And altruism is not the same thing as communism. Its called patriotism. Or are you saying that what makes America great is its selfishness and greed?

    And of course anyone who is willing to pay taxes to pay for people’s medical care must be a communist. Are you guys like still stuck in the Cold War or what?

    Some of you guys act like I said the government should take everyone’s property away for them or something. Maybe they should read what I say instead of just reacting.

    As for nationalized health care not working. Let me see the evidence. The evidence I see is a system where people get the care they need.

    I am not an economist. But I am not ignorant of economics. I think you are. Otherwise you wouldn’t cling to the mantra that individual rational behavior in the free market necessarily leads to optimal outcomes. You can’t justify it except by repeating it, and keeping your eyes blind to the world in front of us, and I might add, the considerable economics research on the subject. I’ve already mentioned before game theoretical research. Its a good starter.

    As for education. Yes our education system sucks. But you can’t say that this is because its publically funded. Most education systems are, and they do much better than our own here in the U.S. It is not an issue of public funding. Its an issue of doing it right.

    supergreen

  • Bat One

    Come to think of it, govt welfare doesn’t meet the requirement of promoting the general welfare at all.

    Exactly!!!

  • robert108

    Sacrificing for the greater good is umm what our soldiers are supposedly doing in Iraq right?

    Wrong. No soldier goes into combat to die, but to kill the enemy, and come back to base. Duh.

  • supergreen

    Thanks Rob for a more considered response.

    I think we can both agree that government can be wasteful, over-bearing, and incompetent. And I think we can both agree that ours is. We do not agree on what the role of our government should be. I think some social programs are necessary, and that the people have the right to set them up. You may agree that they have the right, but think that they should not set them up. That’s fine. I shouldn’t be labeled a communist or a totalitarian for saying that the people have such rights, and that I think that in this case they should exercise them. I tend to think that access to free basic medical care is a human right. I think it unethical that one’s wealth determines the medical care that one can afford. I do not think the government should pay for certain operations, especially cosmetic ones. I’m talking basic medical care. Things that people need to be productive at their jobs. I think that if we insured that people have adequate medical care we’d have an economic boom.

    I do not like insurance companies. And I think it impossibly unjust that the state of California requires us by law to purchase automobile insurance in order to drive…in effect a forced welfare program for insurance companies. I do not have a problem with making sure all drivers are insured, but I feel that such an insurance program ought to provided by the same government which requires us to be insured. I do not think that the government should provide any coverage we want. Just basic coverage. Auto insurance companies can provide extra coverage on top of this basic coverage. But our state government will not make such a move, not only because it would have to raise taxes to pay for it, and politicians do not have the political will to raise taxes in most cases, but more importantly, the auto insurance lobby is too powerful; again a case where the very foundations of our government is corrupted by economic special interests.

    I would like to finally make a note on gas tax. Please understand, I do not think I’m paying too little for gas. Gasoline is in fact too large a part of my monthly budget. That is not the issue. The issue is that economic incentives need to be in place to force us to go through a critical transition which is painful but necessary- a switch to dirty fuels to clean fuels, a switch from inefficient modes of transportation to efficent ones. We buy big inefficient cars because we can afford to drive them around. Taxing gasoline significantly will encourage people to do the sensible thing: drive more efficent vehicles, invest in alternative energy, and so on. Offering tax breaks for those investing in these things might be helpful, but I do not think it is enough to get people to switch. We need to change our American lifestyle to one which is sustainable. Call me an isolationist. I am. I think we should be self-sufficient. As long as we are dependant on oil, we will be dependant on foreign oil, even if we drill the hell out of America. And as long as we are depenant on foreign oil, America can be held hostage by the Middle East. We freak out every time some country declares that it might cut production, or withhold its oil from us. And China is becoming more oil hungry by the day, and the last thing we need is China getting involved in Middle East politics along with us. Better China get involved in long costly wars of oil in the Middle East than we, if we can avoid it in terms of our national interests.Then China will be the great Satan, and terrorists will go and bomb their towers. Tell me that a crack addict is not the slave of his dealer. So…my paying more for gasoline would not do much. Everyone paying for it might.

    And I of course think that there are good environmental reasons for making such a switch.

  • robert108

    Thank you, supergreen, for proving my point. Unfortunately, a lot of Americans do not understand that government cannot conjure medical care out of thin air.

    It is not necessary for the govt to conjure medical care; if set free from govt restrictions, taxation and regulation, the market can do it quite nicely, with no “conjuring” necessary.

  • Bat One

    And you (the insured) are being soaked to cover the cost of the uninsured. So you, too, have an interest in some sort of universal healthcare.

    Shadow,

    While your argument is logically consistent, it is also the very same argument that has led us to the coming financial debacles with Social Security, Medicare (now made all the worse for the prescription drug “benefit”), and the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation deficit now reported to be “only” $18.8 billion down from $23 billion last year.
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2006-11-15-pensions-shrtfall_x.htm?csp=15

    I’m not sure just how much more of someone else’s generosity I can afford, but I am singularly unwilling to further diminish the quality of my own medical coverage or that of my family, or retirement either, merely to assuage somebody else’s conscience. If that attitude marks me as a selfish curmudgeon I will gladly learn to live with the opprobrium.

  • robert108

    shadowfax: The system is broken due to a combination of self-interested regulation and govt interference, and doing more of that isn’t going to solve the problem. Remove the illegals, and ERs can go back to doing what we want them to do: take care of the citizens who can’t afford either health insurance(a pyramid scheme) or to pay the inflated medical costs inherent in our socialized healthcare system.
    The answer to the problems of socialism(supply problems, no price control, lack of incentive to be efficient) is not more socialism.
    Forcing the entire population into a pyramid scheme only postpones the inevitable meltdown.

  • http://albleedingstops.blogspot.com/ shadowfax

    robert108,

    I don’t want to get into a pissing match, but I do want to correct two serious errors:

    1. The government and AMA somehow suppress the opening of medical schools. This is fallacious. the AMA is a lobbying/academic organization and not directly involved in the accreditation of medical schools or residency programs. The local governments are not suppressing them either — there just aren’t a lot of applications to open new schools. To the degree that there is a shortage of doctors (debatable – the US has more docs per capita than just about any industrialized nation) it is driven by the market — medical schools are very expensive in terms of neccessary infrastructure and need to be heavily subsidized either by the taxpayers or a major academic center (usually both). And this is while charging >75K annual tuition! So without huge amounts of taxpayer support, it’s not viable to open a new medical school. And you will note that the market is not exactly crowded with private, for-profit medical schools.

    2. Young healthy people are free to choose not to be insured. True enough. Unfortunately, I am not free to tell them to f*ck ff when they show up on my doorstep. EMTALA requires that I treat all who present to my ER without even asking if they have the capacity or desire to pay. As long as I am obligated to treat them, I (and society) have a direct financial interest in compulsory insurance. And I would say that as a christian, i think that EMTALA is a good thing – it would not be nice to tell someone to get out of the ER for being uninsured. I just want to get paid for what I do. And you (the insured) are being soaked to cover the cost of the uninsured. So you, too, have an interest in some sort of universal healthcare.

  • robert108

    Robert108,
    Just to be clear, the illegals are not a big drain on the system. There are over 100 million ER visits annually in the US. About 20% of those are uninsured patients. less than 1% of the total is attributable to illegal immigrants.

    You obviously don’t live in a border state; ERs in border states, especially AZ, have been closing right and left, due to the losses to illegals. Fact.

    the fundamental problem is that the privately funded patients who come to the ER pay twice as much as they should have to because of cost shifting attributable to the uninsured and Medicaid patients. Either something needs to be done to address the costs of the uncompensated care, or your premiums will continue to go up to subsidize them.

    Exactly. The evil here is the “cost shifting” inherent in a collectivist system.
    BTW, taxation is not an efficient use of capital, otherwise the socialist countries would be the richest in the world, and they are not.
    Instead of subsidy, why not just means test and fund the truly needy. No big infrastructure, and lower cost. Programs and insurance schemes are wasteful.

    The consumer demand for medical services seems inexhaustible.

    Insurance plans give a false price signal to the consumer, so that the normal rationing doesn’t occur. This results in a false demand signal, which, in a system with a controlled supply, raises the real price even farther. It is a vicious cycle.
    There are no good solutions with the present collectivist thinking.

  • http://albleedingstops.blogspot.com/ shadowfax

    Robert108,
    Just to be clear, the illegals are not a big drain on the system. There are over 100 million ER visits annually in the US. About 20% of those are uninsured patients. less than 1% of the total is attributable to illegal immigrants. So whether or not we address theillegal question (we should), the fundamental problem is that the privately funded patients who come to the ER pay twice as much as they should have to because of cost shifting attributable to the uninsured and Medicaid patients. Either something needs to be done to address the costs of the uncompensated care, or your premiums will continue to go up to subsidize them.

    More efficient (and fairer, IMHO): tax everybody and guarantee some low level of coverage. Let those who can buy additional coverage for premium services. Subsidize the indigent. I know that this notion won’t find much support here, so I won’t belabor the point. Give me alternatives — I’m open to them.

    Bat — I agree that as someone with economic means I am not interested in compromising the quality of care I and my family get. I am comfortable with a stratified system, where those who pay more get more/better services. It also preserves a market-based incentive for innovation. You bring up a good point that has no answer yet – cost controls. The consumer demand for medical services seems inexhaustible. How we as a society will pay for it seems to be the trillion-dollar question. This is the problem that makes Medicare the budget-busting elephant in the room. We can’t afford to pay for Medicare as it is now, and I have no idea how on earth we could pay for a Medicare-for-all scheme, even at reduced benefit levels.

    It’s times like this I am glad to be a simple grunt doc and not a policy maker, because I just don’t see any good solutions on the horizon.

  • robert108

    shadowfax: I take exception to your calling “fee for services” as a “stratified” system. Actually, it permits upward and downward mobility in accordance with the individual’s economic choices. If you get the education and training, apply yourself and invest wisely, you should be able to afford market-priced healthcare. That is just reasonable and logical. The present collectivist approach is truly “stratified” because the participants are assigned to places in it according to their group membership, not their effort. How fair is that?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/realitybasedbob/ realitybasedbob

    E PLURIBUS UNUM

    Why do you hate America?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com/ Robert Perry

    RBB, are you seriously arguing that the Founding Fathers, who rebelled over a 2% tax, would endorse the centralization of industry under the poopy hands of an overbearing federal government?

    If so, can I have some of what you’re smoking? It must be good.

  • robert108

    rbb: Do you even know what it means? “One from many” signifies the creation of one country while maintaining the individual identity of its citizens and the individual states. It’s not a collectivist slogan. Have you lost a lot of IQ points lately?

  • robert108

    rbb: That is the literal translation from Latin, and I said the same thing in spoken English. You dodge the question of your implication that it supports collectivism.
    Why do you hate the truth?

  • robert108

    Bat: Furthermore, this country was founded upon, and has become great because of, individual independence, not collectivism. Name the great collectivist countries. The concept that collectivism can solve anything is ridiculous.

  • Bat One

    I agree that as someone with economic means I am not interested in compromising the quality of care I and my family get. I am comfortable with a stratified system, where those who pay more get more/better services.

    Shadow,

    Of course the stratified system you are “comfortable with” is exactly that which we now “enjoy” with Social Security. And for those of exceptional means, such a system presents little burden. But for those with more moderate means, the burden becomes far more onerous.

    With Social Security, the 900 pound gorilla is a cross between the demographics conundrum that is rapidly approaching and the ever increasing life expectancy factor.

    With health care, the same medical technology wizard responsible for that longer life expectancy, ducks behind a different curtain, offering an array for medicines and procedures that were unimaginable a generation ago, and will likely seem paltry in hindsight a few short generations from now. Once we establish a base-line “entitlement” then the question of where to draw that line becomes all too tantalizing.

    Those of us on the right would seem a good deal less “mean” and penurious, if those on the left who are constantly extolling the virtues of the “common good” had any sort of record for addressing seriously the costs that the rest of us have to pay for their Fabian foolishness. When those on the left can demonstrate a serious commitment to solving the long-term financial problems of Social Security, Medicare, and PBG, then maybe, we’ll be inclinde to listen to them when they talk about national healthcare.

    Incidentally, Shadow, I am well acquainted with the health finance questions you raise. As you know, Grady is one of the premier trauma hospitals in the country, and the question of its funding is an annual circus here in the Atlanta area.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/author/realitybasedbob/ realitybasedbob

    Actually, 108bot, the commonly understood translation is, “Out of many, one”.

    Why do you hate America?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    If a company did drop insurance, they should be required to pay an additional tax based on the number of affected employees to cover the additional costs to the government. Ideally, the tax should be high enough to encourage employers to provide insurance.

    I couldn’t disagree with you more on this point.

    First, health care is not the responsibility of business. True, that is how most of us get our health coverage today, but it’s a system that modeled on a union contract struck between the UAW and General Motors several decades ago. And it’s a crappy system.

    The solution for health care is to make it more affordable for everyone. We do that not by making people less responsible for their health care by shifting the burden onto the government or employers but by making them more responsible for it.

    If the money people spend on health care is their own money they’re going to be more careful with it. They’ll take better care of themselves, and they’ll take the time to search out hospitals that provide good service at a reasonable price.

    This “shopping around” would create more choices for Americans for health care and would bring the overall cost down.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    The AMA has regulated the supply of healthcare practitioners for over a hundred years, with a corresponding price penalty.

    There is that, but another big problem in the health care system is that nobody shops responsibly for their health care. Most of us with employer-backed health care plans just go wherever is most convenient for health care rather than taking the time to find a doctor that provides adequate services for a reasonable price.

    Plus, none of us take care of ourselves. If our bodies break down we can just get a doctor to fix us up again and our insurance pays for it.

    That may be nice in the short term, but in the long term you cannot provide an unlimited supply or something (health care) on a finite budget (insurance premiums).

  • P. Lloyd-Saxonburg

    Stupidest article I've read all day.

Create a SAB Readerblog


Recent Comments

Powered by Disqus

Blog Advice and Support
Installs and Upgrades
Theme Modifications
Custom Plugins
Theme Design
Conversions and Relocations
Hacked Site Recovery
Mobile Apps Development